Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Mars on April 10, 2006, 05:31:02 pm
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There was the whole big Shivan Manifesto back, maybe... three months ago. Many people found that theory uninformative and not at all canon, or belivable. Rather than spout out my ideas, I hope everyone else will. Why did the Shivans do what they did? Try to flesh it out as much as possible.
I reserve the right to quote you (cited) in the wiki.
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ngtm1r’s Shivan Theory
The Shivans are not drawn to subspace disturbances, though they are attuned to them.
The Shivans are drawn to conflict. Perhaps they believe strongly in peace: strongly enough that they are ready, willing, and able to enforce it on those who are unwilling to be peaceful. For those who attract the attention of the Shivans receive the most absolute and final form of peace imaginable: that of being dead. Or maybe the Shivans just like a good fight.
The Shivans slaughtered the Ancients, but only after a long period of time in which the Ancients were slaughtering other folks. This would seem to contradict my premise, but note that I said the Shivans were drawn to conflict, not violence. That wording was intentional.
According to the Ancients monologues most of the species the Ancients wiped out didn't (or couldn't) put up much of a fight. (“They were like all the others, hideous, resisting, fighting. Only they were not like the others. They did not die.”) I can only guess, but maybe a little while before the Shivans came along there was a species that did put up a fight, not enough of one to stop the Ancients, but enough to bloody them.
In come the Shivans, drawn to the conflict, to destroy the combatants. They only find one standing, and wipe them out. The Ancients were not a peaceful race. At first they thought the Shivans were the wrath of an angry cosmos…but not all, apparently, since they kept looking for a weakness, and they found one eventually. They learned better.
Left alone, the Ancients would have expanded again, perhaps now with even greater xenocidial tendencies thanks to the Shivans nearly wiping them out. And when the Shivans sent a new expeditionary fleet to stop them, the Ancients would have possessed the means to destroy it. Clearly they had no intention of rolling over and playing dead. The Ancients would be back. The Shivans could be beaten, they were not the gods the Ancients first thought. (“We have little left. Little time. But much irony.” “In subspace their shields will not function, and into subspace they can be tracked.”)
8000 years later, we have the Terran-Vasudan War. It's a long one, 14 years, and so I would guess it was not a high-intensity war for most of that time. Around the time the Shivans show up, however, it had clearly escalated to a high-intensity war. (Look at the casualty figures for Operation Thresher, for example. That's a lot of people considering they're pilots. Had they been infantry, I wouldn't have batted an eye, but five hundred pilots is an awful lot to lose in one operation.)
And here come the Shivans again, determined to enforce a final solution to the question of Terran-Vasudan relations. Only they fail. The Terrans and Vasudans unite against them, and destroy the Shivan expeditionary fleet.
But, this may well have been viewed by the Shivans as a victory. They did not immediately withdraw once the Terrans and Vasudans had made peace with each other because that peace would have evaporated almost as quickly as it had been created. So the Shivans kept fighting. If they ultimately won, there would be a final, total peace. If they ultimately lost, but made a good fight of it, one that forced the Terrans and Vasudans to work together to the fullest, to support each other economically, militarily, and socially, to integrate, then the peace between the Terrans and Vasudans might well last.
32 years later, the NTF Rebellion breaks out. It does not attract the Shivans’ attention, however. Perhaps it would have eventually, but there is a short-circuit of that process. 17 months into the NTF Rebellion, the NTC Trinity activates the subspace portal in Gamma Draconis and enters the nebula.
We actually don't know who fired first in this case. We do know the Shivans fired first on the GTC Vigilant, but we do not know if the NTC Trinity fired first on the Shivans. I find it highly probable the Trinity encountered a Shivan patrol, which closed to look over this Terran ship that had somehow entered Shivan-controlled space. The Trinity, seeing Shivan ships and knowing what the Shivans did the last time they were in the neighborhood, interprets this as the Shivan patrol preparing to attack, and opens fire.
Now, the NTF Rebellion hasn't reached the level of conflict yet where the Shivans decide to intervene. But if you're going to show up in their space and attack them, they're going to respond in kind. The Shivans dispatch a probing force through the subspace portal to take a look around, set up a base camp on the other side, and in general prepare for a sortie. The Shivans, however, do not intend to attack the GTVA. They have no reason to, yet. The Shivans are out to get the NTF. Only they probably can’t tell those two factions apart very well, if at all.
The first Rakshasa into Vega encounters the GTC Vigilant. The Rakshasa, encountering what is probably a Terran ship, attacks, not realizing that it is attacking a GTVA ship and not an NTF one. After all, the Trinity had to come from somewhere, and Vega is the most likely candidate (Gamma Draconis was uncolonized and empty).
Now the GTVA knows the Shivans are back in town. And considering that both of the member races of the GTVA lost their homeworlds because of the Shivans, from the moment the Rakshasa fired on the Vigilant there was no chance of a peaceful resolution. There was little chance that the Shivans and GTVA could have come to a peaceful resolution before the Rakshasa attacked the Vigilant.
The GTVA now must do something with that information. They choose to act on it, swiftly, decisively. The Shivans were not all that powerful in the last invasion, only a few destroyers, a bunch of cruisers, and a lot of fighters. (In fact, probably only three or four destroyers: that's all Terran Command seemed to think that there were in FS1, and if they had many more then that how the GTA and PVN weren’t destroyed before they could get their act together is hard to comprehend.) The GTVA's military arm was built and trained for just this moment. There is no hesitation, and the order is given: Attack!
The Shivans, meanwhile, may or may not have realized their error in attacking the GTC Vigilant. At this point, it does not really matter. What they did not expect was the speed and power of the GTVA's counterattack. Vega Command hears the Vigilant's distress calls and tells the Carthage and Dashorto drop everything and head to the Gamma Draconis node. The Carthage and Dashor arrive on the scene at most a few minutes after the Vigilant is destroyed, perhaps less. The Carthage deploys fighter and bomber wings. Both it and the Dashor move to engage. The Rakshasa and its escorts never really have a chance.
This engagement gives the Shivans pause. The GTVA's ships are not the equal of their Shivan equivalents, but they are close, close enough that the difference is not insurmountable. The GTVA, meanwhile, is executing its preset war plans for second contact with the Shivans: attack with all available force, at once. They are confidant in their knowledge of Shivan ships and tactics, have trained and prepared for this battle for 32 years. They will prevail.
And prevail they do. Before the Shivans can fully digest the implications of the engagement at the Gamma Draconis node, the GTD Aquitaine arrives in Gamma Draconis and engages Shivan forces there. The Shivans are unprepared, and are driven before the Aquitaine's battlegroup or destroyed. The Aquitaine, moving at blitzkrieg pace, pushes on through the portal and engages Shivan forces in the nebula, pushing them back, inflicting heavy casualties.
The Shivans are shocked. This has never happened before. Not only has their planned offensive come a cropper before it ever got underway, a first in and of itself, but the offensive has actually been turned around on them as the GTVA pushes into the nebula.
Then suddenly, it stops. The GTVA stops pushing and merely starts to hold. The Shivans are mystified, but use the breather constructively, dispatching a Sathanas and supporting warships to push the GTVA back out of Shivan space and then end this fight in the usual Shivan fashion of annihilating all opposition. In reality, what the Shivans don't know is that the GTVA is in the process of dealing the deathblow to the NTF.
The Sathanas is coming, but it isn't there yet, when suddenly the GTVA explodes into action again, pushing harder then they had before, throwing more ships and firepower into the attack then before. The Shivan front line crumbles, and rear-area Shivan operations are opened to Allied attack (the gas miners you hit in your first Vasudan mission). But all is not lost: the Shivans finally get the Sathanas into the area, and as they hoped GTVA opposition crumbles before the might of the juggernaut.
Then the battles at either end of the Gamma Draconis-Capella node result in the destruction of the Sathanas, and suddenly the GTVA is back, pushing hard yet again, trampling the small Shivan force still in the nebula. The Shivans decide to throw the book at the GTVA. More Sathani are dispatched.
Something odd is happening too, though: one Terran ship is not attacking them, but trying to communicate with them. The Shivans are mystified, but agree to meet Bosch and talk with him. The combat aboard the Iceni was a colossal miscommunication, a panicked crewer firing on the Shivans that boarded and the situation escalating badly before Bosch got through to both the Shivans and his crew. There were, after all, two transports that docked with the Iceni: if Bosch and company, plus the Shivan boarding party (or what was left of it) were onboard the first, who was getting on the second? Probably a good portion of the remainder of the Iceni's crew. (“As I make this final entry my crew is preparing to scuttle the Iceni and board the Shivan transports.”) But starships were not made to have firefights inside their hulls, and damage was done to the Iceni's systems. Damage that left Lieutenant Rusk and his compatriots in the dark about the peaceful ending to this encounter, although they probably wondered why the Shivans hadn't returned to exterminate them.
From their discussions with Bosch, the Shivans learn that they have made a giant mistake, starting with destroying the GTC Vigilant and moving on to every other GTVA ship and crewer or pilot they have killed since. The GTVA is acting out of an apparent need to defend themselves, not a desire to attack the Shivans. The ones who started it were the crew of the NTC Trinity: even the NTF, in the personage of Aken Bosch, never meant for there to be a war with the Shivans.
But mistake or not, the Shivans have thrown the gauntlet down, and the GTVA has picked the gauntlet up. The GTVA will never make peace with the Shivans. Rather, the GTVA will make every effort to annihilate the Shivans just as the Shivans have annihilated so many others. The Shivans no longer wish to destroy the GTVA, though. The GTVA has done nothing wrong. So somehow, they must end this fight without a formal peace.
The GTVA has Knossos technology: if the Shivans merely retreat and blow the nodes leading into the nebula, the GTVA will believe they are winning, use Knossos portals to reopen the nodes, and continue their campaign. Destroying Gamma Draconis might work. But it might not, as the GTVA might conclude it had cost the Shivans much of their Sathanas fleet, and the rest had gone somewhere else or been heavily damaged. Gamma Draconis hardly matters to the GTVA, after all. There’s nothing there. (The system is uncolonized; the last significant attempt to survery it was fifteen years ago.)
Finally the Shivans settle on causing the Capella supernova as the best, most clear way of both sealing themselves off from GTVA incursions by that route, and sending a message: Don't screw with us. We're bigger, we're meaner, and we will kick your ass. And they carry this plan out.
The GTVA doesn't comprehend the reasoning behind what happened, but the message got through loud and clear. They know better then to screw with the Shivans now.
In case he doesn't make it, Mad Bomber's theory too (he's been a bit scarce of late). It was presented on Sectorgame in two parts, so I've paraphrased them putting them together. Apologies if I managed to totally screw it up. I also ruthlessly eliminated the Awakenings references.
Mad Bomber's Alternative Theory of Shivan Subspace Sensitivity
I has been theorized that it was the GTA and PVN's use of subspace during the 14-Year War that caused the Shivans to notice them and invade that area of the galaxy. However, others note that it took the Shivans much longer than 14 years to respond to the Ancients' use of subspace.
In fact, if the records are to be believed, it was not until after the Ancients had built and used something that stabilized a node to another galaxy, that the Shivans began attacking them. ("When we conquered and colonized galaxies where we had no place.") This event is, probably, the powerup of their first Knossos that attracted the Shivans, same as what happened in Gamma Drac in 2367 when the Trinity found and turned on that one.
The Shivans are attracted not just by generic subspace usage, but by Massive Subspace ScrewupsTM. The GTA or PVN did something that qualified; perhaps staging large numbers of ships through a node at once, perhaps the disappearing Talania system's nodes collapsing. I submit as further evidence the Sathanae's seeming indifference to the Terran forces that engaged 'em.
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By the way, anyone who posts their theory might want to check over what's on the wiki, or even put it up themselves.
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The way I see it, it's all about conflict and evolution through conflict. First we have the Ancients, a master race in the galaxy, top dogs of them all. They go about exterminating anyone they can find. Superior technology gives them the edge they need to prevail continuously. Then, one day, they meet a species that gives them a bloody nose. Insulted, surprised and angered, they come back with even greater a force. Eventually, this attack is rebunked as well. The Ancients are in a situation they have never encountered before, someone is actually putting up a fight.
This new race, the Shivans, eventually grow stronger than the Ancients. The Ancients are driven back, defeated for the first time in their history. We do not know if any communication took place between the Ancients and the Shivans. Anyway, no peace treaty was ever signed. Given the history between the species, the Shivans see it best to exterminate the Ancients, once and for all. They are too great a risk to all the life in the galaxy.
Strengthened by the conflict, Shivans are now number one race in the galaxy. They explore, they expand, they exploit. During their excursions, they find new species, species inferior to them. We don't know the reason why the Shivans decide to exterminate these species. Perhaps they wanted to make sure that there would never be another "Ancients". In any case, the Shivans begin a policy of genocide. With their technology and combat experience, they are invincible.
Until one of their fleets discover two civilizations at war with each other. The Shivans roll in, expect another walk-in-the-park military campaign. They are, however, in for a nasty surprise. These Terrans and Vasudans somehow manage to destroy the invincible Lucifer. At last, the Shivans have found a worthy opponent. The gloves are now down, and the Shivans begin to assemble a new and stronger attack fleet. No species have, as of yet, managed to turn back a Shivan invasion.
32 years pass without encounter. Then the Shivans meet their enemies once again. They have grown stronger, a lot stronger. The Shivans can draw comparisons between this conflict and their conflict with the Ancients. They decide that this threat is to be eliminated now, lest it be too late. They send in the Sathanas, indestructible by any known GTVA weapons.
To horror of the Shivans, even the Sathanas is not enough. The Shivans now realize the seriousness of the situation. Should this GTVA ever reach their home systems, there would be no mercy given, no Shivan colony left standing. They decide to send in a fleet the galaxy has never seen before. The GTVA has grown to match the Shivans. No punches will be pulled anymore. Only one can win this war, and the victor is the one who survives.
True enough, the Shivan assault drives the GTVA back from the nebula, then from Gamma Draconis, all the way to Capella. The Shivans have now the upper hand, the GTVA is beaten, the Colossus is nothing more than dust. Shivans see the desperation in the eyes of their enemies. As a last resort, the GTVA starts collapsing the subspace nodes leading to its space.
However, something else has caught the Shivans' attention. One of these GTVA ships is acting strangely. They realize it is trying to communicate with them! Initially, the Shivans are very wary of this communication attempt. They fear this GTVA, more than anything in the galaxy. Eventually, they decide to meet this envoy. We can only guess what discussions took place during that meeting. Perhaps Bosch went willingly with the Shivans. But in order not to raise suspicions, they made it look like as if he was captured. Possibly the GTVI spied this conversation, we don't know what it was that Snipes was rescued for.
We can assume that the destruction of Capella was a direct consequence of these talks. There is no other rational explanation for that kind of mass suicide, given that we know nothing of the Shivan society, their motives or their beliefs.
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And then, there's the Capella Barbeque Theory.
The Shivans, you see, are the universe's greatest party animals. Their parties aren't just legendary, but virtually mythic. The only problem is that they lack one very vital thing: Beernuts.
They've got plenty of beer, massive ships haul it back and forth from the alcohol nebulas scattered across the galaxy, processing them into the golden brew that every Shivan loves to drink by the keg. That's a keg every round for those who are concerened. Beernuts, however, are in painfully short supply and the Shivans have sent out massive fleets of ships to locate a rich supply of those salty little buggers.
Then they found the GTA and the Vasudans.
The Shivans, despite their apparent distructive nature, only wish to spread their partying ways across the universe. Their laserpointers and bottlerockets, however, rip starships appart and kill people who are not Shivans (to whom, getting hit with a laser blast is the equivilant of a come on). Not to be detered, the Shivans kept at it, until they learned that these strange creatures that exploded when a Shivan offered them a night of passion had a massive supply of beernuts.
Then the horror began. Led by the lead party barge, the Lucifer, the Shivans made a mad, highly destructive (sometimes by accident, sometimes not, they are harty partiers) search for the source of the nuts. At one point they thought they had it, and in celebration, fired off a massive firework display at Vasuda Prime, utterly destroying the surface of the great planet. After a careful search, they found no nuts, but they did find that the nearby Terrans DID have nuts, and made a beeline to Sol to claim them.
They didn't count on the Terrans not wanting to have their planet be part of a firework display, and so the Lucifer was stopped and the rest of the Shivans, their party supply cut off, wandered off to pass out in a galactic ditch and sleep it off.
Bosch, a very wise man who partied harder than three frathouses during homecoming, came upon evidence of the Shivan's true intensions and set out to join them. Using the Knossos and the NTF as cover, he sent the Shivans and invitation to a truly massive party. Luckily, the Shivans had found a rich source of beernuts and decided that they should set up a truly excellent party amongst the GTVA systems. The Sathanas (which is really just a massive party barge/grill) made it's way through Capella to find a good place to set up. When it ran into the Colossus and was destroyed, the Shivans figured that they should set up the party closer to home and launched the fleet.
With Bosch drinking at their side, the Shivans gathered their great fleet of grills around Capella and they blew up the star to roast lots of meats and veggies so the party could begin proper. They were quite disappointed when most of the Terrans and Vasudans didn't show up, and in fact slammed the door shut on the party, but not being ones to take offense, just took more for themselves.
And so the great Capella Barbeque began, and the Shivans and handful of humans they managed to find rocked hard and long all night long.
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I have a few related questions.
Looking at the "Capella dies" video, just what are those bad things doing? Some of them enter subspace. I assume they still die. Are they jumping into Capella's sun? They couldn't escape, could they?
My other question regards the evolution of Shivan technology. The Ancients fought the Shivans thousands of years ago, yet shield technology is the "weakness" of the Shivans. And this is still valid thousands of years later. One reasonable explanation for this could be that hey, maybe the Shivans just don't get out much, or they need to train more scientists. It happens, that your civ doesn't change in thousands of years.
However, it also appears that they do innovate, perhaps. FS2 has new Shivan vessels - are they factory fresh or just never encountered before? We don't know. If they are innovating, why hadn't they before? Just because they never needed to? CAN the GTVA out-tech the Shivans? It would be quite interesting, although unlikely, resource-wise, to see two shielded Colossi working to hammer Sathani from behind.
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Well first off nobody knows, secondly, that's why I'm collecting peoples views- so I can put them on the Freespace Wiki http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/.
The Santhanas Juggernaughts that jump out are usually assumed to escape, but nobody knows for sure.
In my personal opinion the Shivans do not depend on their technology, but rather in their huge numbers. I don't think their technology ever improved even since the Ancients, "I personally always figured the 'first generation designs' were subspace-worthy enough to get through some of the unstable jump nodes and Ross 128 and Ikeya, while the 'generation 2 designs' required a stable node- such as the Knossos jump node, to get through, and that most beam cannons interfere with subspace." to quote myself.
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Muwhahahahahahahahahaha
*cough*
Carry on.
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The Santhanas Juggernaughts that jump out are usually assumed to escape, but nobody knows for sure.
Really? That's whack! I thought you needed a pretty stabilized node to jump out of systems - IE, you can't open about a dozen really fast and hope to get anywhere safely...
Plus, in the video, only 3 stick around (that you can see). And why did they stick around?! It wasn't like their presence was needed to finish off the sun - it was already going!
I guess Shivans just never needed to improve, either...
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And then, there's the Capella Barbeque Theory.
The Shivans, you see, are the universe's greatest party animals. Their parties aren't just legendary, but virtually mythic. The only problem is that they lack one very vital thing: Beernuts.
They've got plenty of beer, massive ships haul it back and forth from the alcohol nebulas scattered across the galaxy, processing them into the golden brew that every Shivan loves to drink by the keg. That's a keg every round for those who are concerened. Beernuts, however, are in painfully short supply and the Shivans have sent out massive fleets of ships to locate a rich supply of those salty little buggers.
Then they found the GTA and the Vasudans.
The Shivans, despite their apparent distructive nature, only wish to spread their partying ways across the universe. Their laserpointers and bottlerockets, however, rip starships appart and kill people who are not Shivans (to whom, getting hit with a laser blast is the equivilant of a come on). Not to be detered, the Shivans kept at it, until they learned that these strange creatures that exploded when a Shivan offered them a night of passion had a massive supply of beernuts.
Then the horror began. Led by the lead party barge, the Lucifer, the Shivans made a mad, highly destructive (sometimes by accident, sometimes not, they are harty partiers) search for the source of the nuts. At one point they thought they had it, and in celebration, fired off a massive firework display at Vasuda Prime, utterly destroying the surface of the great planet. After a careful search, they found no nuts, but they did find that the nearby Terrans DID have nuts, and made a beeline to Sol to claim them.
They didn't count on the Terrans not wanting to have their planet be part of a firework display, and so the Lucifer was stopped and the rest of the Shivans, their party supply cut off, wandered off to pass out in a galactic ditch and sleep it off.
Bosch, a very wise man who partied harder than three frathouses during homecoming, came upon evidence of the Shivan's true intensions and set out to join them. Using the Knossos and the NTF as cover, he sent the Shivans and invitation to a truly massive party. Luckily, the Shivans had found a rich source of beernuts and decided that they should set up a truly excellent party amongst the GTVA systems. The Sathanas (which is really just a massive party barge/grill) made it's way through Capella to find a good place to set up. When it ran into the Colossus and was destroyed, the Shivans figured that they should set up the party closer to home and launched the fleet.
With Bosch drinking at their side, the Shivans gathered their great fleet of grills around Capella and they blew up the star to roast lots of meats and veggies so the party could begin proper. They were quite disappointed when most of the Terrans and Vasudans didn't show up, and in fact slammed the door shut on the party, but not being ones to take offense, just took more for themselves.
And so the great Capella Barbeque began, and the Shivans and handful of humans they managed to find rocked hard and long all night long.
This has got to be it.
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Yeah, Capella BBQ theory is in the Wiki.
The Sathanas Juggernaughts were generating some sort of subspace field around the Capella sun, the normal rules may not apply.
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I prefer Strike's theory (about the Sathanas being trailors)... if only the search function worked.
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Come on, it would only take a day or five to go through every single post in the General Freespace Forum, what's your problem? :wtf:
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Yeah, Capella BBQ theory is in the Wiki.
The Sathanas Juggernaughts were generating some sort of subspace field around the Capella sun, the normal rules may not apply.
Where? It's not linked to from anywhere obvious and the Wiki search is borked. It NEEDS to be added to the "shivan theories" category. Yesterday. ;)
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**** my mistake... should work...
now.
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Come on, it would only take a day or five to go through every single post in the General Freespace Forum, what's your problem? :wtf:
Nah, I think this proves my theory that the Sathani are Shivan trailer homes. See, they really just wanted to make friends with the Terrans this whole time, but due to an unfortunate culture gap and some preliminary spy reports collected durign the Terran-Vasudan war, the Shivans figured our primary method of communication involved focusing high-density plasma charges into each other. Thus, Lucifer scout fleet showed up and transmitted the message "We come in peace", wiping out all nearby. Hurt and confused at the Terrans' and Vasudans' panicked flight, they followed the GTA fleet to Vasuda Prime. Knowing an important populated planet when they saw one, what subsequently ensued was the equivalent of thousands of years of Shivan history, science, and literature broken up into several easy-to-understand blasts... Thirty years later, the Shivans spot Terrans in their nebula. Curious as to what happened to their peace delegation, they accost the first fleet they see and bombard them with questions. The Terrans return fire, and, overjoyed that contact has finally been made, the Shivans mobilize their colony ships, ordering them to set up a permanent base around the nearest Terran star where Shivans and Terrans (and Vasudans, who the Shivans assumed were just more Terrans) could trade, communicate, and live in harmony. Up to the death of the Colossus, the Shivans maintained their good intentions, though they had to admit that maintaining good relations with the Terrans seemed to be getting an awful lot of them killed. It was only when the Terrans sealed off the first Capella jump node that the Shivans guessed that something was amiss. Slowly the idea formed that maybe we WEREN'T friendly, after all. Hurt by this possible breach of trust, the Shivans sent out one last delegate, headed on what they last knew as a route to the Sol system and the capitol of Terran government, housed in a Cain class executive transport. When diplomatic talks opened up prematurely and destroyed the Cain and the diplomat before a meeting, let alone consensus, could be achieved. Shocked and disgusted by the treachery of the Terrans, the Sathanas fleet blew up the Capella star in the universal signal for "farewell", which they hoped would eventually reach the remaining Terrans in other systems, and returned home, never to be seen by Terrans again.
You owe me one...
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*offers Ghostavo a cookie*
Okay, trailer theory is going up, how the **** did you find it so fast?
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*offers Ghostavo a cookie*
Okay, trailer theory is going up, how the **** did you find it so fast?
I went to the users profile thingys and searched Stryke 9. After checking the lastest post thingy in reverse a bit, I found it.
Oh and http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,450.msg8214.html#msg8214
I love this thread.
You saved Capella!
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You know, looking back at all of those theories...
I still think the Knossos was a lock, not a portal.
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Care to elaborate?
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You know, looking back at all of those theories...
I still think the Knossos was a lock, not a portal.
hi,
yes and no.
i think first its was an portal, but as the war against the shivans going bad, the ancients use it to close the subspace node
and yes to a lock: maybe the knossos can emit a negativ subspace whirl to make sure that the node will not stabilize and hide the portal of the sensors.
and maybe another idea: what is if first bosch has activate the second knossos in the nebular.
maybe it working as lock too, but the shivans had never find out how the chance the process, maybe because that the shivan and the ancients technologie is to different.
thats maybe the reason why the shivans capture bosch.
Mehrpack
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Really? That's whack! I thought you needed a pretty stabilized node to jump out of systems - IE, you can't open about a dozen really fast and hope to get anywhere safely...
Why are you assuming that they had to instantaneously jump out of the system? The Gamma Draconis node was still open and depending on where it was in the system they could have had hours to evacuate through it.
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You know, looking back at all of those theories...
I still think the Knossos was a lock, not a portal.
That would be an interesting synposis to base a campaign upon were one to select it.
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Why are you assuming that they had to instantaneously jump out of the system? The Gamma Draconis node was still open and depending on where it was in the system they could have had hours to evacuate through it.
I... guess so...
We'd need to know the speed of that blast and the dimensions of the system, I guess. Ok, possible. The only question is, why did those three Sathani stay?
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Now that is the big question. :)
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For a serious answer to the question, I'm toying with the idea of the Shivans being only one of two "all-powerful" races.
Opposite the Shivans exist a race I'm, quite originally, calling Brahmans. As the Shivans destroy, the Brahmans create. They created the nodes (contrary to popular theory that it was the Shivan's doing), and (possibly) seeded the galaxy with life. It would explain why so many of the worlds linked by the subspace nodes are habitable.
It's just a hair-brained idea, but in the campaign I'm designing, it's either have the principal foes be scientists searching for the Brahman's homeworld (which, if I can swing it, will actually be in Subspace), or have the foes be, essentially, hippies with lasers.
Maybe I should just ditch this campaign and start from scratch.
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The question is not why did some Sathanas remain but why did some leave instead. :p
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My personal excuse is that Their Finest Hour is named that way for more then one reason. Alpha 1, you see, is indirectly responsible for the Sathanas that didn't make it. Those freighters you blasted were carrying something necessary for the successful operation of the star-nuker (or perhaps the star-nuking was also Alpha 1's fault?), and when you blew them up, you forced the Shivans to attempt whatever they were trying to do with less fuel/maintance/what-have-you then was necessary.
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ngtm1r - I'm not sure I have this right, but you're saying that destroying those freightors meant the Sathani couldn't leave because they lacked fueld?
That would be very interesting indeed. It suggests that an extremely desperate effort could be made to try to contain a Sathanas incursion - except that we never see nor hear of the first one to ever refuel or resupply, though it is entirely possible that it did at some point. However, trying to cut off its supplies would leave it kicking for too long, requiring sacrifices the GTVA really can't make.
Do they really need 80 or so of these monsters to nuke a star? I would imagine they wouldn't, the Shivans giving themselves at least a few spare in case the GTVA just got really lucky. It would be pretty bad if they managed to reach another star (and perhaps they can't due to supply constraints) and nuked it, too. :shaking: I mean, it would take weeks to try to eliminate 80 of them from behind without a Colossus.
Though Deimos vettes would be less hindered by their slashing beams when their target's so huge...
Out of curiosity, has anyone stuck an Orion behind a Sathanas? Especially if it had fighter cover (to eliminate the rear beam), the Orion I imagine could cause serious grief to the Sathanas...
I don't think the Knossos portals are locks (or at least not locks alone). From FS2 (which we take as canon, right?) the Trinity "activated" the portal and jumped through. Both the NTF and GTVA confirm this, although the Trinity never admits it before it dies. Locks don't let you through when "activated" - although "activation" could be a misinterpretation of actual deactivation. Perhaps the Knossos portals were locks to keep the Shivans from Ancient space - and Terran/Vasudan space is to some degree also Ancient space, since Ancient artifacts and sites have been found.
The portals may have failed to protect the Ancients the same way the Lucifer & Co. entered into the Great War.
Where was the second portal found, btw? I forget...
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Problem with them being locks:
The final cutscene of the game is pretty explicit about the fact that the Knossos tech allowed them to get back to Earth.
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Problem with them being locks:
The final cutscene of the game is pretty explicit about the fact that the Knossos tech allowed them to get back to Earth.
hi,
i mean if the portal can create a subspace node, why it cant make sure that a node not build or stabilize?
and we dont know the specifications of the knossos.
we doesnt know it, that i doesnt can lock node, we only know that it can stabilizes or create nodes.
any we dont know how the portal was, before the trinity "activate" it.
and the GTVA only guess the Trinity "activate" the portal (i mean here not that the Trinity wasnt there or doesnt fly through).
the only person who definitive know if the portal was inactiv or in a lock mode is Bosch, he was the only person who know how to use the portal and that behind the portal the shivan lurking.
and the lucifer: that fleet was the only contact in Ross 128, since 33 year have we there see no another shivan.
if bosch doesnt use the portal, maybe the next shivans came through in X years.
so i think, the ancients close/lock the portal, but the shivans search for another way and find it.
maybe the way over the natural nodes 100 or 1000 years long, but definite lager as 33 years.
the remians sathans: i believe the reason why they stay was only to stabilize the prozess in the sun long enough, that the other sathans can jump through the sun.
but this coast so much energy that the sathans energy-reserve go down respectively the sathans dies.
you see it, the sathans jump out, the remains go off and the sun exploded immediately after the lights go out.
i doesnt see any other reason why this sathans should stay.
Mehrpack
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Problem with them being locks:
The final cutscene of the game is pretty explicit about the fact that the Knossos tech allowed them to get back to Earth.
Having a door doesn't mean that door doesn't need a key.
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ngtm1r - I'm not sure I have this right, but you're saying that destroying those freightors meant the Sathani couldn't leave because they lacked fuel?
Fuel, parts, the somebody who actually knew how to run the thing...something broke, and it's Alpha 1's fault.
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Problem with them being locks:
The final cutscene of the game is pretty explicit about the fact that the Knossos tech allowed them to get back to Earth.
Having a door doesn't mean that door doesn't need a key.
Adm. Petrach's next address:
"Nevermind...turns out a computer virus caused us to lose a couple of device drivers for the KnossosOS. Guess we won't be going back to Earth, after all."
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We'd need to know the speed of that blast and the dimensions of the system, I guess. Ok, possible. The only question is, why did those three Sathani stay?
That easy, They stay because need to mantein the subspace attack on the star or dont work, and afer that they run out of energy to power up engines again.
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We'd need to know the speed of that blast and the dimensions of the system, I guess. Ok, possible. The only question is, why did those three Sathani stay?
That easy, They stay because need to mantein the subspace attack on the star or dont work, and afer that they run out of energy to power up engines again.
What makes you so sure it was a subspace attack?
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We'd need to know the speed of that blast and the dimensions of the system, I guess. Ok, possible. The only question is, why did those three Sathani stay?
That easy, They stay because need to mantein the subspace attack on the star or dont work, and afer that they run out of energy to power up engines again.
What makes you so sure it was a subspace attack?
I not sure... but Petrach say that there is a anormal subspace field, but none knows what is that green thing really.
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I not sure... but Petrach say that there is a anormal subspace field, but none knows what is that green thing really.
Zigackly!
(Shivan intention threads are brilliant for annoying people in this way, BTW :D)
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So I've noticed... what is this monster I have created?
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Mars Intention Theories thread? :nervous:
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Problem with them being locks:
The final cutscene of the game is pretty explicit about the fact that the Knossos tech allowed them to get back to Earth.
It's a doorway, a portal... it's easy: included with the door is its lock! I mean, if you managed to build a device that could let you travel back and forth between huge, previously uncharted distances, it'd make sense to have a way to lock the door behind you if you found something unfriendly, right?
Bosch just unlocked the door and let the Shivans in.
Although, how did the Shivans blow up the Ancients? Maybe they picked the lock?
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The Shivans didn't need the Knossos to travel to the Ancients systems, remember that the Shivans can travel through nodes the GTVA and possibley the Ancients, cannot, in Ross 128, Ikeya and Antares.
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The Shivans didn't need the Knossos to travel to the Ancients systems, remember that the Shivans can travel through nodes the GTVA and possibley the Ancients, cannot, in Ross 128, Ikeya and Antares.
hi,
or maybe the travel is much lager without the gama dragonis knossos.
the gate was a shortcut, and without the gate, the travel is many years long.
we doesnt know where the gate end, in which part of the galaxy and where the next system is in our galaxy behind the nebular.
maybe this are over 100 or 1000 lightyears and you have to travel thourgh many system, if you want to go to this place without the knossos.
i mean the cutsequencen in Freespace, only say that the ancients retrieve to thier homeworld, and that than came the destoryer.
there was no directly allegation of time, between the retrieve and the arrival of the shivans.
maybe there that think, now we are save over 100 years but then came there nightmare back.
maybe thats the reason why they think the gods of the univeres are irate.
Mehrpack
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My personal theory is that certain Shivan ships (Rakashasa, Moloch, Sathanas) and ships with beam cannons cannot go through those nodes, still, assuming the Ancients were no more formidable than the Terrans and Vasudans, the Shivans could have wiped them out without such technology.
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That's not a big question at all.
The Sathanas that first powers up the disturbance(it's only an impression,but I think it was the same that destroyed the Colossus)and the other 2 continue to create the disturbance when other Juggernauts jump out.
The red lights ont the Juggernauts turn off,as on the contrary they became more intense during the first phase of the disturbance.
It's just a reactor failure,a Shivan mistake occurred or a sacrifice of the Juggernauts(the number of the Sath went down remains little, compared to the escaped ones).
We don't know if this sacrifice was useless,but seeing those Sathanas being vanquished was,in my opinion,a little victory for the GTVA.
But just a little victory...hundreds of civilians,terran and vasudan officers & pilots perished when Capella turned into a Supernova.
The real problem is that we'll probably never see FS3.What we consider the final outcome of this story was considered by the creators to be just the bridge for the FS3 background.
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Do they really need 80 or so of these monsters to nuke a star? I would imagine they wouldn't, the Shivans giving themselves at least a few spare in case the GTVA just got really lucky. It would be pretty bad if they managed to reach another star (and perhaps they can't due to supply constraints) and nuked it, too. :shaking: I mean, it would take weeks to try to eliminate 80 of them from behind without a Colossus.
Not necessarily weeks, and a collossus isnt necessary to take out a sathanas. It only takes about 25-30 minutes per sathy if you have 3 packs of helios in a boanerges. 15-20 minutes if you lag bomb (you cant lag bomb in single player nor if your the host of the game).
Out of curiosity, has anyone stuck an Orion behind a Sathanas? Especially if it had fighter cover (to eliminate the rear beam), the Orion I imagine could cause serious grief to the Sathanas...
Orion wouldnt do crap unless you have it modified to have beams at places where they were not intended(via fred). and even then it wont do much. Hecate can do much more damage then an orion. :p
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Hecate doesn't do much, if any more damage than an Orion, as a matter of fact, I'm inclined to think the Orion does more. Anyway, an Orion would need to have beams with the "supercap" flag in order to damage a juggernaught.
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Orion wouldnt do crap unless you have it modified to have beams at places where they were not intended(via fred). and even then it wont do much. Hecate can do much more damage then an orion. :p
Orion: Capable of bringing up to 2 BGreen and 2 Terslash to bear on a single target. (Although it may be 3 BGreen and 1 Terslash...my memory of the portside batteries is a little fuzzy. It's got three guns and they're all anticap, plus the chin turret.)
Hecate: Up to 1 BGreen and 1 Terslash on a single target.
The Orion is thus able to bring to bear at least twice the firepower on a single target.
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I tend to agree the Orion can bring to bare almost twice the number of anticap beams then a Hecate.
P.S. I need a node map that is at least twice as large as the styandard FS2 nodemap. Can anyone help me out at this???
It's really important. If it can be even bigger i mean like 3 times bigger(plus the adequete number of sistem) it would be great!
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There's a lot of non-canon node maps all over this forum, do a search and you'll find somthing.
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All beams have a supercap flag..
A Orion right next to the Sath is even more deadlier than behind it.
Sath has no beams capable of shooting left or right and hte Orion can give him a full broadside.
Actually, I let the Sath and Orion fight like that and hte Orion won...the Sath couldn't turn to face the Orion as the Orion kept following it... Even though the Sath is faster, as soon as it pulled away a bit it tried to turn, and hte Orion caught up and then they started from the top :D
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No, no trashman, all of YOUR beams have the supercap flag.
$Name: BGreen
$Flags: ("Big Ship" "huge" "beam")
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Trashman uses his own special version of the tables, so you've got to take all comparisons he makes with a grain of salt.
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I've come to realize this, but thanks for the tip.
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well as far as i know even a Deimos could bring down a Sath ive the right circumstances but..then again theres no such thing as a perfect flag or GTVA command havin actual brains.
Well another theory that i thought of about the whole shivans blowing up the star was that in fact they wanted to seel off a doorway. I dont exactly know why and for whom but it is clear that they didnt have any intention of wiping out the GTVA.
And in theyr own special way they actuali wanted to protect the GTVA from something else. Of course this would actualy involve anothe uber race but then again thats not the case. They could even be other shivans. Perhaps another splinter group of the shivans who take theyr job of cosmic destroyers a bit too far. Also there are hints to sugest that the shivans that destroyed the Ancients are not the same as the ones the GTVA fought in the second war.I mean no othe Lucy was sighted, no other planetari bombardment no sistematic clensing of the star sistems. Hel if they wanted they could of raced fo the Gama Draconis and beta aquilae sistems faster then it would of took the GTVA to mount a defense or colapse the nodes.
So I tend to believe that in a twisted way they actualy wanted to protect the GTVA.
At least fo a little while. I mean the GTVA has now the Knossos tech. and you can rest asured that by the time the GTVA finishes the second Knossos device its milatary will have a lot better and more powerfull ships. And hey who knows even the GTVA high command might actualy start thinking and actualy formulate a tactic which makes sense.
Oh well the last part i doubht but nonetheless eventualy the GTVA will emerge even more powerfull then the last time. Perhaps powerfull enough to chalange even the shivans.
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Trashman uses his own special version of the tables, so you've got to take all comparisons he makes with a grain of salt.
public Ship makeABox(int noOfRightAngles){
...
if(fighterbay<normalfighterbay){
while(!ridiculous){
beams ++;
turrets ++;
armour ++;
engines ++;
}
}
...
}
:nervous:
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I tend to think the GTVA will be investing in monitor type warships (warships that are basically mobile battleship cannons essentially) as a low cost solution to threats that might arrise. These would be about the size of corvettes, and would be escorted by corvette and cruiser class warships, as well as fighters. They would not be effective warships, just effective countermesures.
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I tend to think the GTVA will be investing in monitor type warships (warships that are basically mobile battleship cannons essentially) as a low cost solution to threats that might arrise. These would be about the size of corvettes, and would be escorted by corvette and cruiser class warships, as well as fighters. They would not be effective warships, just effective countermesures.
I don't think it's exactly a low cost option if it requires that size of escort.
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I mean a corvette or a cruiser, sorry, I didn't mean to conjure up images of an armada.
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public Ship makeABox(int noOfRightAngles){
...
if(fighterbay<normalfighterbay){
while(!ridiculous){
beams ++;
turrets ++;
armour ++;
engines ++;
}
}
...
}
:nervous:
You know, I wasn't going to go there. But since you did, well, :lol:
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Yeah, its just one of those things you need to learn in the first week on the HLP forums.
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Trashman uses his own special version of the tables, so you've got to take all comparisons he makes with a grain of salt.
public Ship makeABox(int noOfRightAngles){
...
if(fighterbay<normalfighterbay){
while(!ridiculous){
beams ++;
turrets ++;
armour ++;
engines ++;
}
}
...
}
:nervous:
Eh? I havn't touched the flags on the beams (I did change the fire delay a bit and hte damage on the slashers, but I havn't touched the flags!).. Strange...
AS for you:
public MakeStupidRant (char victimname)
{
if (if ship != smooth OR ship != organic) OR (invent reason)
{
if (modeler = TrashMan)
{
printf(LotsOfUseless****);
RunFunction (Ignore reason);
}
ELSE StandardCynicalReply;
}
}
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Eh? I havn't touched the flags on the beams (I did change the fire delay a bit and hte damage on the slashers, but I havn't touched the flags!)..
And we're expected to believe that you own the only copy of FS2 which came with different flags on all the weapons? :p
Might explain a thing or two if you do I suppose. :)
Oh and while we're at it your code won't compile :p
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Technically, neither will Aldo's code.
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AS for you:
public MakeStupidRant (char victimname)
{
if (if ship != smooth OR ship != organic) OR (invent reason)
{
if (modeler = TrashMan)
{
printf(LotsOfUseless****);
RunFunction (Ignore reason);
}
ELSE StandardCynicalReply;
}
}
Struck a nerve, have I?
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Technically, neither will Aldo's code.
I believe Strat meant it in a more metaphorical sense...
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I believe Strat meant it in a more metaphorical sense...
I hope you mean Kara :nervous:
I have similar sentiments that I could go on over, but I'm avoiding it specifically because we're starting to see the same childish behavior that has caused any number of threads concerning Trashman's views of the FS universe that have caused more thread lockage than I need to dredge up.
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Technically, neither will Aldo's code.
Nothing wrong with Aldo's. It's just a single method from a program that defines the Ship object and other variables it uses elsewhere.
Where as Trashman has mixed up assignment and equivalence testing and gotten his brackets completely mixed up. He's probably not a coder so I wouldn't expect him to get it right but unless he's using a language I'm not familiar with his code simply won't work.
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I hope you mean Kara :nervous:
Whoever you, or he, is/are/were! :p
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Kara, unless there is a new function in C++ that doesn't require ; and it's called ... I doubt it will compile. :p
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Aldo's code is perfectly valid C++ syntax. The only lines that aren't function declaration (the first) or conditionals are the four incrimenters, which are all properly semicolon terminated.
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Aldo's code is perfectly valid C++ syntax. The only lines that aren't function declaration (the first) or conditionals are the four incrimenters, which are all properly semicolon terminated.
Kara, unless there is a new function in C++ that doesn't require ; and it's called ... I doubt it will compile. :p
The ... , the ... :p
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Which denotes that this is an incomplete code fragment not an actual working routine.
Trashmans code on the other hand is a full routine.
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Aren't we slightly off topic now? Oh well.
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Which denotes that this is an incomplete code fragment not an actual working routine.
Trashmans code on the other hand is a full routine.
My point exactly.
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Java hactually.
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My point exactly.
Not a very good one though. You can't comment on whether or not a code fragment will compile or not because it's not what the program sees when you click the compile button anyway :p
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I have similar sentiments that I could go on over, but I'm avoiding it specifically because we're starting to see the same childish behavior that has caused any number of threads concerning Trashman's views of the FS universe that have caused more thread lockage than I need to dredge up.
I'm sorry that my interpretation of some of FS2 numbers doesn't match yours..and prolly never will. The thread lockage therein was not of my making..nor was the childish behaviour..
Nothing wrong with Aldo's. It's just a single method from a program that defines the Ship object and other variables it uses elsewhere.
Where as Trashman has mixed up assignment and equivalence testing and gotten his brackets completely mixed up. He's probably not a coder so I wouldn't expect him to get it right but unless he's using a language I'm not familiar with his code simply won't work.
Nope.. you should check on external classes and calling of functions..But I cofess, I do lack " " while printing text. :D
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1) You've missed the brackets around your if functions on several occassions.
2) You've used (modeler = Trashman) instead of (modeler == Trashman) which has the effect of setting the modeler variable to Trashman regardless of what it was.
3) OR (invent reason) simply won't work. You've called a function with two variables with no comma between them. You need to get rid of that space before it would work in C++ or Java. I doubt Visual Basic or any other language I don't know would let you get away with that either.
4) You've made that above mistake more than once too.
5) ELSE StandardCynicalReply won't work either. That's a variable not a function. You simply can't call a variable like that it doesn't mean anything.
And that's just what I spotted in a minute or two. But anyway let's remove the ambiguity. What language was that meant to be in?
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I love the internet.
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I suppose I should have mentioned when I first said it wouldn't compile that I wasn't trying to start a discussion over a throwaway line but I mistakenly assumed that no one would really care enough to take it any further :D
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Pre-Ancients' Era
The region of reality known as subspace has long been dominated by the Shivans--a ruthlessly xenophobic species who consider themselves the arbiters of subspace travel. For millions of years they have successfully crushed those who trespass that domain, much similar to a 15th century pirate armada controlling the trade routes of an ocean.
In specific, the Shivan success has hinged on how opposing species never have either the weaponry to break Shivan shields, or the shields to resist Shivan weapons. Thus the xenophobes scour the universe with multiple clones of the same basic fleet--a swarm of shielded fighters plus bombers, several dozen unshielded frigates, cruisers, and a handful of carrier/destroyers, and then at last a shielded superdestroyer flagship with beam cannons. As these "Lucifer fleets" always win, the Shivans never see reason to upgrade.
Ancients' Era
The Ancients begin using subspace to expand their empire, thereby eliciting the attention of the Shivans. Like many species prior, the Ancients are unable to counter the resultant onslaught. They do discover how to track Shivan ships into subspace, and likewise find out how even Lucifer-level shielding is useless therein, yet they fail to capitalise on these developments before the eradication of their empire.
Post-Ancients' Era
Eventually, the Shivans encounter a worthy opponent for the first time: the Guan-di. The new species is not only quick to duplicate Shivan weapons and shields, but also smart enough to develop subspace-tracking technology. Warfare between the two sides forces the loss of many Lucifer fleets, compelling the Shivans to finally change methodology from offense/defense to offense-only. Eliminating shields on all but their fighters and bombers, they arrange beam cannons onto the forward arcs of every large ship. This evolution leads to many beam-laden juggernauts, as the pinnacle of a tactic to overwhelm Guan-di ships as quickly as possible.
Despite that change, however, the Shivan defeats continue to mount. Their efforts are hampered by a reliance on nebula gas for construction, without which their ships simply die faster than replacements can be built. However, Shivan investigations soon reveal that the massive subspace engines of their juggernauts make stars unstable. Subsequent experiments uncover a method to emulate, amplify, and focus that effect so as to detonate a star on command, creating a crude imitation of a nebula.
This finding allows the Shivans to increase production tenfold, and thereby retake the momentum of the war. Yet before long, the Guan-di once again display an adaptive genius by copying the nebula tactic, and thus keeping stride in the arms race. In due course the two sides reach equal footing, where a stagnation of their war for several millennia is the result.
Terran-Vasudan Era, Great War
The Terrans begin exploring their galaxy using subspace, whereby they encounter the Vasudans. Underneath the mutual hostilities and an eventual outbreak of war between the two sides, Galactic Terran Intelligence finds evidence of prior Shivan presence left over from the Ancients' Era. The GTI moves quickly to control the evidence and begin experimentation. Meanwhile, the T-V conflict draws the attention of an obsolete Lucifer fleet on patrol near the bounds of Shivan space; the fleet sets course for the Ross 128 star system and the unstable subspace node thereof.
On arrival, the Shivans begin what they assume will be yet another simple campaign of extermination. Yet the Terrans and Vasudans present a surprise, first by forming an alliance and then by rapidly assimilating Shivan technology--the latter boosted by some of the GTI's prior experiments being smuggled into GTVA efforts. Once again the Shivans find themselves facing a persistent foe, but with the Guan-di war at hand they refuse to commit fully on a two-front fight. Despite the lack of support, as well as a growing GTVA ability to counter Shivan fighters, bombers, and ships-of-the-line, the Lucifer fleet still pushes rapidly forth behind its impervious superdestroyer.
The war next hits climax when the GTVA stumbles upon the Ancients' subspace tracking technology, and the concurrent uselessness of Shivan shields when in transit. With that information, a last-ditch GTVA assault is able to halt the Lucifer fleet before it can reach the Terran homeworld. The subspace node collapses from the superdestroyer's explosion, bringing victory at a price of all contact lost with Terra. Afterward, the remaining Shivans are helpless to resist GTVA mop-up operations, and a tentative peacetime begins.
Terran-Vasudan Era, Post-Great War
Throughout the entire Great War, Galactic Terran Intelligence operatives constantly scavenged the battlefields for items and intel to accelerate the pace of their experiments. In the war's aftermath, GTI forces accumulate sufficient resources to break away entirely from the GTVA. This results in a civil war between the two factions, culminating in the total slaughter of the GTI and the destruction of their project's crown jewel--a superdestroyer based on Shivan technology.
After that victory, the GTVA appropriates some GTI research--especially in regard to Shivan beam weapons--then either destroys or classifies the rest. Later, the kept technologies become part of a joint Terran-Vasudan project to create a juggernaut worthy against any future Shivan superdestroyer fleets. Meanwhile, GTVA officer Aken Bosch undertakes a personal mission to follow in the GTI's footsteps for a different purpose: the establishment of contact with the Shivans.
Terran-Vasudan Era, Second Great War
More than thirty years after their victory over the Shivans, GTVA forces are entangled anew. Humans with anti-Vasudan sentiments have formed a rebel group called the Neo-Terran Front, and are determined to topple the Terran-Vasudan alliance. Unknown to the NTF at large, their supreme commander and the catalyst of the war--Aken Bosch--is in fact using each battle as a cover, so that he can plunder various star systems for Shivan and GTI remnants.
The result of Bosch's efforts is twofold: a device to communicate with the Shivans, plus the finding of a huge subspace gate leftover from the Ancients' empire. One of his ships is dispatched to activate that gate and explore beyond it. Still in full clash versus Guan-di resistance, the Shivans have yet to regain any interest for T-V space. The opening of the gate by Bosch's followers breaks that inattention and draws a few Shivan fighter patrols, leading to the severe damage of the NTF ship.
Oblivious to the above, the GTVA and NTF continue their conflict. However, GTVA investigations do reach the subspace gate, then the derelict ship of Bosch's followers, and finally a group of Shivan reinforcements sent to finish the earlier fight. This encounter leads the GTVA to think a new offensive is near, while in truth they are still viewed by the Shivans as a minor distraction from the Guan-di threat.
Finally, the GTVA is victorious against the NTF. In the last battle, Bosch sacrifices most of his fleet in an effort to make contact with the Shivans. The resultant dialogue is successful from his POV, but in fact the xenophobic species not only considers his communications to be a heresy, they are also angry at the risk of his signals reaching the Guan-di. The Shivans let Bosch believe that a rendezvous will be friendly, whereas their intentions are actually to seize his device for study and take him away for punishment. Likewise they begin shifting several fleets to preemptively establish a foothold in T-V space against the Guan-di.
With the NTF defeated, GTVA focus turns to establishing a defense against the Shivans, in the rising belief that the latter's aggressiveness means another invasion. Soon forced to retreat, the GTVA tries to curb the threat by destroying the subspace gate, only to discover that the node itself does not close. Further combat appears to stop the Shivan incursion at the Capella star system, but the reality is that the Shivans are elsewhere organising supply elements for an armada.
Meanwhile, Aken Bosch and his remaining NTF loyalists finally have their audience with the Shivans, only to get the opposite of what was expected since he and his elite are captured and his crew slaughtered. Yet by a quirk of fate the Shivans do not realise that the device they wanted to study is still onboard his ship, thus they leave it behind. The GTVA remains one step behind the entire scenario, recovering the ship and just enough info to be even more confused about Bosch's motives and the Shivans' behaviour.
Upon confirmation of the Guan-di's imminent arrival, the Shivans quicken their logistical and strategic efforts. From observing those moves, the Terrans and Vasudans get a terrible wake-up call on the extent of Shivan military superiority, although they remain blind to the actual reasons behind the deployments. Evacuations begin out of Capella, and the GTVA fleet offers escort along with plans to box the Shivans into the star system by collapsing its nodes to T-V space.
Mostly ignoring all GTVA activities, the Shivans start massing juggernauts around the Capellan binary, preparing to detonate one of the stars and create a resource nebula. At the same time two GTVA destroyers carry superexplosives into the targeted subspace nodes. Both sides accomplish their goals: the nodes are closed and the star goes nova, thereby halting the Second Great War. While the Shivans now brace on a new front versus the Guan-di, an ignorant GTVA assumes that a reprieve has been won.
The Era of Freespace 3
Almost twenty years after the events of the Second Great War, the GTVA have learned how to replicate the huge subspace gates used by the Ancients. A gate is made and it successfully re-opens the collapsed node to Sol, thus ending a fifty-year divide between Terra and the rest of the GTVA.
Upon that reunion, however, surprises unfold: a rebuilt GTI at Terra has spent the time using wreckage from the Shivan superdestroyer to inform the creation of a new Terran / Vasudan / Shivan juggernaut, the Olympus Mons. Not only does the ship own a pair of super beam cannon six times stronger than any prior, its makers also developed a shield system impervious to lesser beams yet still slightly protective in subspace. The GTI / GTVA forces combine to plan for more warships, as well as to upgrade the existing GTVA fleet.
On the edge of T-V space, warfare between the Shivans and the Guan-di is running full tilt, where neither has an advantage and both are wrestling over nearby subspace nodes. Their tumult spills over near the Ross 128 star system, where an unstable node now becomes stable and allows transit for fleets of titanic ships and innumerable fightercraft from both species. GTVA sentries pick up on that battle, but neither the Shivans nor the Guan-di spare any attention from each other, thus the Terrans and Vasudans are able to observe from afar. This revelation sparks GTVA fears of being steamrolled either by the conflict itself or else by its winner; a decision is made to contact both species, in hopes that one will be open to an alliance.
In following the schematics for Aken Bosch's device, the GTVA eventually recreates his communications technology. A dual-pronged mission launches simultaneous negotiations with the Shivans and the Guan-di: its first half backfires, as the xenophobes are again angered at contact by what they deem as inferior beings--the best the GTVA manage is to find out Bosch's fate was indeed terrible. On the other hand, the Guan-di react in a neutral manner, since their extreme focus on the Shivans leaves little room to see the GTVA as either interesting or threatening.
As the war stretches ever-farther into T-V space, the GTVA desperately push to maintain talks with the indifferent Guan-di. Thanks also to several covert GTI ops, gradually the conflict's entire scope is pieced together. The Shivan paranoia and their parasitic grasp on subspace both become evident as the true danger; if they win the war, then all Terrans and Vasudans would be next on their agenda. By contrast, the Guan-di are understood to be fighting a defensive struggle, with no real desire to either control subspace or occupy star systems. A victory for their species would therefore appear likely to cause a unified return to their home territories.
Later on, the GTVA acquires a critical new fact about the Shivans: all their individuals are mind-linked in a rigidly hierarchical collective, with command-and-control originating from a "Shivan Nexus" in their home region of the universe. By the time the Guan-di learned of the Nexus, the Shivans had already massed overwhelming defenses around it, thereby dooming a subsequent Guan-di siege to miserable failure.
After considering the above, the GTVA decides to take a chance that the Guan-di would truly be non-aggressive if the Shivans lost the war. A do-or-die mission is conceived about flying the super-shielded Olympus Mons all the way to the Shivan home region, with an aim to destroy the Nexus and thereby render the entire species helpless. Because the Guan-di are unallied and unsympathetic, the GTVA readies itself to also fight through their fleet when necessary.
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Buh?
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say what? Well that is a very good stroy and would make a very good campaign but i doubht the reasons are that simple.
First of all the shivans in all theyr histori have been considered as a sort of galactic police squad if you will. Sure they may be maniacs but then again they mostly aprea when a wer is raging on. This was the case with the Ancients who were extermnating species after species or enslaving them thus dening them the opurtunity to evolve and become something better. If u look carefulli at the first shivan war ant the secnd shivan war they differ very much. I mean in the first war there was the goal of anihalation of both vasudans and terrans but in the second one this goal as abandodened for whatever they anted to do in capella.
This would demand one of 2 posible explinations:
a)either were talking 2 different shivan factions or
b)seeing that the GTVA has not only held in time but they actualy became stronger so there was no need for them to come in and clean up the house. No more senseless sloughter of each other but rather a peacefull destiny toghether. Well when theyr not fighting rogue factions that is. This would lead the shivans to consider that "the children" have evolved enough for them to consider that theyr job is done.
Also there is that other thing evolving from the fact that the shivans are actualy the simptom of a much greater problem. This can not be as some would sugest a destruction of the subspace fabric since that would mean thet the shivans woul come in and exterminate everyone and every race technologicly andvanced enough.
But rather something else something that would require the "childre" to grow up and become stronger, more adaptive in nature, more mature. Hell at this point the idea of another race which "scares" even the shivans seems plausible. I mean for all thery technological superiority the shivans saw theyr greatest ships destroyed at the hands of the "children" twice. I mean that has got to get u thinking. No matter how stubbern you are.
Also i believe that the shivans understood that the GTVA had plans to buid thery own knossos. This would of been quite a problem for them because they had no idea of what the GTVA forces were actualy like. Also since all GTVA designs are very diferent from shivan ones i mean they have good ofensive capabilities but also super defensive capabilities this would sugest to the shivans that in fact the GTVA is sort of like live and let live kind of thing. You can tell a lot by the weapons of your enemy you know.
these are all theories and cand be proven.
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I think that when V said the Shivans were a symptom of a "much greater problem" they probably just made things worse for those of us who wonder what really is going on.
I think that people will squable for the rest of eternity as to the real intentions of the shivans until V gives us the truth or makes a sequel (which we'll all dream about till death)
It's a shame the FS never sold well...there is so much life left to this universe, and yet we'll never have the real thing.
Pre-Ancients' Era
Eventually, the Shivans encounter a worthy opponent for the first time: the Guan-di....
So did you invent all that? I mean, it sounds cool, but like everyone after me will say...if it ain't V, it ain't FS...
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Personally, I don't think Ancient space was exclusive to the GTVA systems that we know right now. The fact of the matter is, weren't there other Knossos portals in that system in the DIVE DIVE HIT YOUR BURNERS PILOT mission? That proves without any doubt that the Ancients had base camps "out there" beyond Gamma Draconis's nebula.
The so-called "Shivan Space" beyond Gamma Draconis is in fact the remnants of the Ancient empire. The Lucifer fleet from FS1 looks different from the Sathanas fleet in FS2 because the the Lucifer fleet found in Freespace 1 is the same fleet that blew up the Ancients and thus is the Shivans' oldest fleet design, whereas the Sathanas fleet is the result of the Shivans adapting Ancient technology for their own purposes.
You can see that the same general "spikiness" of the Knossos portal is also evident in the "new" Shivan ship designs, indicating that the Shivans literally stole Ancient technology after wiping the Ancients out -- probably integrating the Ancients' knowledge of subspace technology into their own ships. It is possible that the Shivans can use unstable nodes today due to use of Knossos technology in their own subspace drives. Despite the age of the Lucifer class they may have retrofitted the Lucifer class to also have this technology by the time FS1 rolled around.
As for why we don't see the Ancient inspired designs in FS2, the Shivans are probably just as smart as the GTVA. Which are you going to send out to explore the frontier and conquer other, more "pathetic" races? Are you going to risk the latest and greatest technology, or send out your older ****, because you don't care about your older craft as much anyway? Send out the older junk, the duct-taped junk, and leave the newer stuff to defend home!
The Lucifer fleet from FS1 was the "older junk" -- the same stuff the Shivans used on the Ancients -- their tried-and-true fleet. As for what the Shivans were doing in Capella -- I have no ----ing clue and I don't want to speculate on that point.
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Personally, I don't think Ancient space was exclusive to the GTVA systems that we know right now. The fact of the matter is, weren't there other Knossos portals in that system in the DIVE DIVE HIT YOUR BURNERS PILOT mission? That proves without any doubt that the Ancients had base camps "out there" beyond Gamma Draconis's nebula.
Already said by the species text in FS2.
Also, it's pretty well established the Shivans were more advanced than the ancients; for one thing, I remember a V staff bloke on the VBB saying that the Lucifer was only impervious to FS1 era weaponry, not FS2. The Ancients having that level of weapons tech in particular would mean that the subspace tracker was unecessary.
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Ahh, okay (I really need to learn to stop editing my posts after I post them lol) --- guess that means the Ancients didn't have beam cannons? :P
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Actualy it is a fact that the Ancients did not have beam cannons and i doubght they could of ever developed them in a efecient mannor as to cause significant damage. Remember that th only reason the GTVA has beam cannons is because they are based on the Lucifers flux cannons. If they didnt have the scans provided by Alpha1 i doubght they would of managed to get them functional in time. Also the GTVA unlike the Ancients is a young rhing so to speak. They are hungry for knoledge and thus have the skills necesarry for them to adapt improve steal what they need from theyr enemy.
We do know for a fact that theyr ship designs were more advanced then FS1 era ships. I remember seeing a post on the VBB that said they were only a little more advanced in this regard compared to the GTA/PVN . Posibly somewhere along the line of FS2 era ships but no beamcannons or no efective beamcannons.
But then again in regards to subspace i remember that the Ancients were way ahead of the GTVA. This was the one area were the ancients ruled so to speak. Also it would seem plausible that since the Ancients were so advanced in the realm of subspace the shivans might actuali take advantage of the Ancients technology regarding this. Theyr ships designs certainly resemble Ancient design. At leat FS2 era ships. This would sugest they mai have incorporated some of the design features and subspace tech avilable and posibly improved on them. But not all of them since it is clear they have no idea how to operate actual Ancients devices.
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Remember that th only reason the GTVA has beam cannons is because they are based on the Lucifers flux cannons. If they didnt have the scans provided by Alpha1 i doubght they would of managed to get them functional in time.
Don't know where on earth you came up with that from; there's absolutely not indicators of how beam cannon were developed anywhere in the canon AFAIK.
But then again in regards to subspace i remember that the Ancients were way ahead of the GTVA. This was the one area were the ancients ruled so to speak. Also it would seem plausible that since the Ancients were so advanced in the realm of subspace the shivans might actuali take advantage of the Ancients technology regarding this. Theyr ships designs certainly resemble Ancient design. At leat FS2 era ships. This would sugest they mai have incorporated some of the design features and subspace tech avilable and posibly improved on them. But not all of them since it is clear they have no idea how to operate actual Ancients devices.
It's pretty clear from the monologues they weren't as advanced as the Shivans in subspace; you can tell it from how they regard the Shivans as punishing them for trespassing there - you wouldn't regard an inferior race (in this sense) as being 'enforcers'.
Plus, how on earth (or elsewhere) can Shivan ships 'match' Ancient design when we have never even see ancient design bar the radically functionally different Knossos?
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Actualy there was this post on the VBB that said that the GTVA beam cannons are actualy based on the lucifers flux cannons! I think. Damn cand find another source to back this up.
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I think we can assume the Shivan's beam cannons function on the same princible as the Lucifers, but there is no indication if Terran beams work on the same theory as Shivan beams, unless it said so in the Templar campagin
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WEll i can not remember exactly or find the exact post/topic where i read this but there was there an ample discusion reagrding GTVA/shivan beam technology. I do believe that the current beam cannons are the evolution of the Lucifers fluxcannons.
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One thing I don't get, if the Shivans are supposed to be more advanced than the Ancients, why haven't the Shivans built their own Knossos device?
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Maybe they don't need them.
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oh yeah they dont need them thats why they staied in the nebula. They stayed there cuz they werent able to move out of it and into gama draconis. If you remember exactly they used no other jump node to enter GTVA space wich would sugest there is no other node that leads from there to the GD. except for the one with the knossos device.
this is ample proof that the shivans are still inferior to the Ancients when it comes down to actualy getting out of a jam using subspace technology. Sure the ships are impresive and have very advanced subspace drives but thats about it. They have no tech advanced enough to seel off or force open a jump node.
this leads me to believe that with theyr current subspace drives beeing so advanced they must of stolen at least some tech from the ancients regarding subspace.
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oh yeah they dont need them thats why they staied in the nebula. They stayed there cuz they werent able to move out of it and into gama draconis. If you remember exactly they used no other jump node to enter GTVA space wich would sugest there is no other node that leads from there to the GD. except for the one with the knossos device.
this is ample proof that the shivans are still inferior to the Ancients when it comes down to actualy getting out of a jam using subspace technology. Sure the ships are impresive and have very advanced subspace drives but thats about it. They have no tech advanced enough to seel off or force open a jump node.
this leads me to believe that with theyr current subspace drives beeing so advanced they must of stolen at least some tech from the ancients regarding subspace.
Yeah sure, the Ancients were so advanced and powerful that they couldn't deal with the "minor" threat that were the Shivans...
Seriously, where are you pulling all of this? If the knossos did lock nodes, why the hell were the Ancients obliderated? It's not like the Shivans have FTL drives (or do they :drevil: ). Again read the monologues. The Ancients themselves said that the Shivans weren't interested in their tech, territory or anything the Ancients might have. The Shivans went for their "sins".
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Maybe the Ancients were more powerful than the Shivans, but the Shivans could easily swarm them, and destroy them... a la Stargate Atlantis.
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But there is canon data that the Ancients were at the same level of technology as the Terrans and Vasudans at the beganing of the Great War.
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Actualy there was cannon evidence i think that said the Ancients were anly 20 or 30 years ahead of the terrans and vasudans duting the Great War with the shivans.
Except in terms of subspace tech were they were way ahead of the terrand and vasudans!
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So why couldn't they destroy the Lucifer? :rolleyes:
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Cause' they didn't figure it out until it was too late, they were good at subspace, they didn't have shields.
@AlphaOne:Sorry, didn't check. Still, the Ancients were not ahead of the Shivans
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well not from a ship tech or weapons tech point of view. but i believe that they were in fact ahead or at least on the same level of subspace tech as the shivans.
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Yeah, I agree.
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In the fs1 tech description is where you find out about the lucifers flux cannonshttp://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/SD_Lucifer (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/SD_Lucifer). I have no doubt command created they're own flux cannons from reviewing the scans of the lucifer. Otherwise i bet you in fs2 the weapons you'd be missing are beams. Plus, i bet sol could develop they're own beams since the lucy pretty much split in half via an explosion in the sol node, and the front half of the vessel is in sol probably to be salvaged and reverse engineered. Or perhaps earth got a transmission of the lucifer scans, since that mission happened much earlier to the demise of the lucifer :p
And also technically with the nebula thing. The shivans might not have been in the nebula from the start. Remember bosh did go and plunder ancient archeological sites, discover the knossos, and activate it. NTF ships were the first ships to enter the knossos from tv space. Bosh's objective was to find the shivans and then open relations, perhaps ntf nebula exploration ships did more than go through the nebula, they could have gone through the other knossos device to attract the shivans. I mean, bosch did have to find them first, after 8000 years you can't expect the shivans to still be at one place. This theory of course works off of an assumption of course that the shivans weren't in the nebula, this can't be proven. Something that can be proven is that the knossos did have to be activated. And since the knossos had to be activated, that proves you couldn't use that node until you flipped the on switch to the knossos. That's probably why the shivans didn't come through until bosch intervened.
What the knossos actually does could be ten fold. We do know that the knossos re-initializes dead and unstable nodes(i don't want to go so far as saying the knossos can create nodes, but i bet it can since it's one of the few luxuries the ancients had to colonizing galaxies). That's for sure, it's one of the reasons the node for that knossos still worked after the knossos was destroyed. Which breeds another question, why didn't the node with that knossos stay stable since the ancients left? Well, it was most likely an unstable node that required the use of a knossos, and over 8000 since the ancients were gone, seems more than enough time for a technically undependable node to become unstable again without the knossos being active.
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Wasn't the Knossos device only on the Gamma Dragonis side of the node? So even if the Shivans knew how to activete it, it's not like they could get to it, because it was on the wrong side of the node for them.
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Wait... the Shivan's are attracted to subspace activity, right? So when Bosch turned on the GD Knossos, the Shivans felt the ripples(?) in subspace. And just think about how large of a disturbance turning on a subspace node would create. If there were no Shivans in the nebula, they sure as hell could read that action from far away and came running (flying) thinking that maybe they had not killed all of the ancients (who else had Knossos portals?), and beacuse of this they sent much more powerful ships than they had used in FS1.
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I think the fact that the Trinity went through and started shooting Shivans might have helped them notice too. :p
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well not from a ship tech or weapons tech point of view. but i believe that they were in fact ahead or at least on the same level of subspace tech as the shivans.
Because they built a whopping great expensive installation to do what the Shivans probably were been able to do with their regular engines?
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Who says the shivans are attracted to subspace activity?
Shivans probably have superior sensors compared to the gtva and can detect when a single vessel warps in from somewhere. I wouldn't go so far as to say they are drawn to it. Probably so much as, hey look, something came through, lets go check it out. Once they find out what came through they decide what to do. Shivans aren't like moths in the fact that they go to the next bright light (subspace) that they see mindlessly. They were drawn to it just as i was to tapping that phat ass i saw last night.
Shivans are different about subspace than the gtva are. Where the shivans are located, it's just shivan territory, shivans only generally. Something comes through an unstable node after 8000 years, you're going to check it out, you're not going to be drawn to it. Plus, there's no freaking evidence of the shivans checking it out. The shivans probably weren't even aware that the unstable node was used.
The only thing we know is that ntf nebula exploration ships went through first with the intention of finding the shivans. The ntf found the shivans, the shivans came through the knossos next fully expecting terrans and vasudans because they quite frankly encountered terrans of the ntf in the nebula.
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Who says the shivans are attracted to subspace activity?
IIRC it's suggested within the species text in the techroom. Somewhere in FS2, anyways, although it's not presented as any sort of conclusion.
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Lol
In that case, maybe my rating for gtva scientists should be "flamboyantly gay". The shivans seem to be drawn to subspace.
How scientific, practical, and conclusive does this sound? It's a well documented light assumption :lol:
I know a successful rewording of this would put more praise and thought to it.
Something like shivan technology and even the shivan itself with it's body being what appears to be a technology melded with organic tissue seems to be attuned towards subspace disturbances.
Then that with the fact that shivans talk making use of the electromagnetic spectrum with quantum pulses, the usual shivan could be compared to a standard radio tower and cb radio.
Now the shivans sound a lot more likely to be in tune with subspace.
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Some great proof right here on the box specifying the lucifer fleet as specifically a scouting party (shivan version)
I'll have to read the manual later for more stuff :)
(http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/4944/p10100181oo.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
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Taking the box as canon is akin to taking the back of a novel as canon; at the very least questionable, more probably downright stupid.
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Oh ok, but you've got to admit the box is really cool, i was surprised at the condition i left it in. On another note, there's nothing in the manual at all story related :lol:
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And why would the box be so untrustworthy? The sme can be said about countless other sources of cannon evidence. I mean come on its like saing that what the Volition beta testers knew about fs2 and or fs3 would be useless cuz well its not that cannon right?
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Box art is not necessarily produced by the developers of the game in question, and is usually hype. Indeed, the blurb shown was likely created on the part of the marketing division to set the scene for the game. The fact is we don't know who the hell wrote that and what they could have meant by it, so it's a hell of a lot easier and significantly safer to just ignore it and focus on what's actually in the damn game. It's also worth nothing that the closest thing said in-game to that statement is Petrarch's comparison of the Lucifer Fleet to the Sathanas Fleet, which further invalidates the box-art hype as simple sensationalism.
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Errrr now that you say that way...it would make sence what youre sayng.
Also the fact that compared to the force used by the shivans during the second war was that much greater would sugest that the first fleet the shivans used was maibe in theyr version a scouting parti. For the GTA/PVN it was a god damn armada.
Btw. how many destroyers were actualy in FS1 2 or 3? :confused:
Also since we dont have any actual ancient ship in order to see how advanced thery subspace drives are we cannon say for sure if they were way behind the shivans, at an equal stand, or superior to the shivans in this respect. And sisnce we dont actualy know what nodes shivans can use and what know we also cant corectly asume the level of sophistication.
But we do have a good reference as to the level of advancement in subspace tech that the shivans and Ancients have/had . We do have the knossos which for all we know can stabalize jumpnodes but then agin how do we know they cant actualy create a subspace node for ships to travel. All we have seen so far is theyr use for stabalizing nodes that were unparcticable. But there is a posibility of it actualy creating a subspace node to another sistem. Also we do have evidence of the Ancints actualy colonizing other galaxies. this would imply they managed to somehow create a subspace node link to other galaxies. since i doubght there are nodes leading to other galaxies.
One can not asume that simply because they were anihalated by the shivans that they were inferior from a tech point of view. TEchnology is not the only determening factor in war but also strategi and numbers. For all we know they could of had hundreds of capships involved on either side. With the shivans having the upper hand in this. Since well we dont actualy know much about the shivan econimical status or anything like that. But for the ancients a war of this magnitude could of brought theyr economy to theyr knees. Rmember the terran-vasudan war lasted for 14 years and it nearly brought both economies to thery knees.
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Except for the bloody 4th time, they were defeated because they couldn't destroy the Lucifer. It is speculated ingame that the Lucifer Fleet was the same fleet that destroyed the Ancients IIRC.
So using your own argument, yes it was a war of numbers... 1 is a number.
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also using and arguemnt of somene else they mentioned "shields" this would sugest there were more then one lucy's and yes they could not bypasss the shields. agree i never said they did i just wanted to provide an arguement that the fact they could not bypass the shields of the lucifer in time does not mean they were a backwater societe in terms of ship and weapon tech.
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Yes, and shields plural could also mean fighter shields. And with the Lucifer Fleet being assumed to be the same one can only wonder. Also, I'm not saying the Ancients were neanderthals, but that the Shivans are the equivalent to the First Ones (B5 reference) in FreeSpace. Finally, one can assume that the GTVA is more advanced than the Ancients regarding weaponry. They have after all beam weaponry that is assumed to pass through shields.
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also using and arguemnt of somene else they mentioned "shields" this would sugest there were more then one lucy's and yes they could not bypasss the shields. agree i never said they did i just wanted to provide an arguement that the fact they could not bypass the shields of the lucifer in time does not mean they were a backwater societe in terms of ship and weapon tech.
It clearly implies they were far inferior.
Also, RE: plural shields, the fs ref bible / monologues mention the Shivans having key ships plural.
Act 3 Misc 2A
The records have been deciphered and analyzed. The language used by these “ancients” bears several similarities to the Vasudan language, lending credence to some of the Vasudan legends about their ancestry. From what little information there is in the records, it’s learned that the Ancient’s civilization was one very similar to the Terrans and Vasudans, and that they were likewise annihilated by a mysterious space-faring race that showed no mercy or effort to communicate. In the last months of their species’ existence, they were perfecting a device to allow ships to be tracked in subspace. The Ancient’s planned on using this to attack the Shivans’ key ships in subspace while their shields were down. Unfortunately, the Shivans destroyed their fleets before they could exploit this device. Furthermore, the Ancients speculate that subspace nodes were quite fragile, and that combat during a jump would surely cause the collapse of the surrounding nodes.
Terrans begin constructing the tracking device immediately. They need to recover certain bits of technology from the Shivans to reconstruct the tracking device. The renegade Vasudans also have a piece of needed technology so there is also an offensive against them, requiring a showdown between the renegade and loyal Vasudans.
[missions involve the player’s forces trying to track down the SD fleet. It’s found, and the newly made tracking devices are readied for use. Unfortunately, the SD fleet is just one jump away from the Terran’s home systems. A large attack group of Terran ships is quickly assembled, and the SD attack begins as it makes the last jump to Earth.]
To me it seems very likely the Shivan fleet had more than one Lucifer or similarly shielded superdestroyer. (note; I don't think it's in the final game, but the FS1 ref bible has the HOL as a pre-Great War sect headquartered in a wrecked Ancients building in a planet in Altair, hence their role in this description)
And why would the box be so untrustworthy? The sme can be said about countless other sources of cannon evidence. I mean come on its like saing that what the Volition beta testers knew about fs2 and or fs3 would be useless cuz well its not that cannon right?
Box art is done by the PR and marketing people, not the game developers. Whilst there would be some input as to the images, etc, included, the storyline is certainly not something that's going to be given away quite so drastically on the back of the box. It's simply marketing hyperbole to indicate there's a lot more to kill this time round.
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Well yeah but i would imagine the ancients havin somewhat better weapons then the terrans or vasudans in this case regarding fs1 era ships. and better ships. But not good enough that they could blast through the shields of the lucy. Also i dont believe that 8000 years ago the shivans had the ships like the juggs or the corvettes or even the recently encountered cruiser. However i would imagine them having the same weaponry they had during the confrontation with the terrans and vasudans on they cap ships except Lucy.
However my point and arguemnt wasnt referring to them as beeing as advanced in ship or weapon design as the shivans not necesarily. They could of been perhaps on the same level of ship tech and weapon tech or even past the shivans in most regards except when it came to the shields of the lucy and its flux cannons. It is a posibilaty.
The other arguement i was hoping to prevale was the fact that they subspace tech wasnt as primitive as everyone suspects nut rather some what equal or more advanced in some ways. The fact that they did not have the means of tracking a ship through subspace could just be because they did not need it utill they encountered the shivans. and by the time they figured it out it was too late.
Also could it be posible for the shivans in diferent parts of the galaxi to evolve separately in they weapons tech and ship tech?
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Well yeah but i would imagine the ancients havin somewhat better weapons then the terrans or vasudans in this case regarding fs1 era ships. and better ships. But not good enough that they could blast through the shields of the lucy. Also i dont believe that 8000 years ago the shivans had the ships like the juggs or the corvettes or even the recently encountered cruiser. However i would imagine them having the same weaponry they had during the confrontation with the terrans and vasudans on they cap ships except Lucy.
They had lower levels of tech than the FS2 GTVA in weaponry terms if we assume the shielded Shivan destroyers were Lucifer or lower level.
However my point and arguemnt wasnt referring to them as beeing as advanced in ship or weapon design as the shivans not necesarily. They could of been perhaps on the same level of ship tech and weapon tech or even past the shivans in most regards except when it came to the shields of the lucy and its flux cannons. It is a posibilaty.
Unlikely, though, given the monologues. Every indication is that the Ancients lost time and time again without winning any counter-attacks.
The other arguement i was hoping to prevale was the fact that they subspace tech wasnt as primitive as everyone suspects nut rather some what equal or more advanced in some ways. The fact that they did not have the means of tracking a ship through subspace could just be because they did not need it utill they encountered the shivans. and by the time they figured it out it was too late.
The Ancients pseudo-reverance for the Shivans as punishment for 'sin' indicates they were (however advanced the Ancients were) considerably more advanced. You simply don't regard a species that is not markedly superior in that manner.
Also could it be posible for the shivans in diferent parts of the galaxi to evolve separately in they weapons tech and ship tech?
Possible, but unlikely with all that's been seen; all indications have pointed to the Shivans being akin to a hive mind, plus they re-use many ship types from FS1 in FS2 except for weapons upgrading and the dumping of obsolete designs (with the arguable exception of the Lucifer, which itself was probably vulnerable to beam weapons). There's certainly no more cause for it than there is regarding the FS1 and FS2 GTVA as seperately evolved.
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hell then i cant imagine a race that actualy managed to build the knossos to be so stupid as to remain behind so much from a weapons tech point of view. I mea come on althrough out history of the terrans at least they constantly strugle to develop better weapons even when theyr economi was in shambles during the 14 year terran vasudan war they were seeking new wais of defeating theyr enemies. Also even if they would of won the war they would use resources to constantly develop better weapons and technologi and ships.
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hell then i cant imagine a race that actualy managed to build the knossos to be so stupid as to remain behind so much from a weapons tech point of view. I mea come on althrough out history of the terrans at least they constantly strugle to develop better weapons even when theyr economi was in shambles during the 14 year terran vasudan war they were seeking new wais of defeating theyr enemies. Also even if they would of won the war they would use resources to constantly develop better weapons and technologi and ships.
Well, you just answered yourself there; the Terrans and Vasudans were entrenched in a war of attrition. The ancients were a warlike race, but they never encountered anyone dangerous enough to force them to have to upgrade their weaponry. If you had an army with machine guns and were facing Roman Centurions, you wouldn't need to develop lasers to win. The Ancients simply had no need to agressively research weaponry, so instead they were focusing upon outwards advancement into new territory.
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if only a race would of been advanced enough or powerfull enough to actuali put up a decent fight at least a couple of years causing huge damage to the Ancients fleets then they would of thought twice regarding they superiority and who knows maibe they would off been strong enough to actualy beet the shivans.
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if only a race would of been advanced enough or powerfull enough to actuali put up a decent fight at least a couple of years causing huge damage to the Ancients fleets then they would of thought twice regarding they superiority and who knows maibe they would off been strong enough to actualy beet the shivans.
Not likely - any race like that would have probably been wiped out by the Shivans.
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god damn these things get around the univers. I mean come on its like they crush you just before you can mature become more powerfull.
Oh well i can only imagine the look on they faces when theyr lucy was destroyed.
Here is another idea i had i mean since the orion has quite a lot of straight surfaces what about mounting missile launchers or bomb torpedo launchers. Reduce its weapons sistems regarding beam cannons i mean let is have say 2 of them and then mount missiles on it. they could be used for aaaf defense and whith a shi launching 15 or 20 or 30 trebs at ani given time i would suspect it would be quite a problem for any ship. Or have it close range firing 8 or 10 helios at a time.
But then again you could create a new model to do this job or stick to beam weapons.
It was just a thought.
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Here is another idea i had i mean since the orion has quite a lot of straight surfaces what about mounting missile launchers or bomb torpedo launchers. Reduce its weapons sistems regarding beam cannons i mean let is have say 2 of them and then mount missiles on it. they could be used for aaaf defense and whith a shi launching 15 or 20 or 30 trebs at ani given time i would suspect it would be quite a problem for any ship. Or have it close range firing 8 or 10 helios at a time.
Nae chance. You'd need to gut the inside of the ship to add in massive amounts of internal ammo stores, feeds to the weapon, and most crucially of all add new armouring to those sectors. Plus there's an obvious logistical issue with any sort of long-term operation; even the Colossus was susceptible in that area, and the last thing you want to do is allow the enemy to tear apart your fleet by simply attacking your vulnerable transports and freighters without even having to engage the destroyers.
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but dont beam cannons require plassma or something like that? isnt that in danger of running out? that would be the same as with the spent amunition from a missile launcher.
On the other hand how many shots can be fired by a beam cannon befoer it has to be reloaded so to speak?
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but dont beam cannons require plassma or something like that? isnt that in danger of running out? that would be the same as with the spent amunition from a missile launcher.
On the other hand how many shots can be fired by a beam cannon befoer it has to be reloaded so to speak?
No. Beam cannon (and all other energy weapons) use plain old energy, fiddled about with in some odd way to create the stream of energy we see. This energy is generated by the ships fusion reactor/s, which are powered by mined deuterium gas (aka heavy water), and these reactors power every aspect of the ship from weapons, to life support, to lights, to weapons. Fusion is an incredibly efficient manner of energy generation, and I'd imagine it is far, far more efficient in usage terms than finite ammo. Essentially, beam cannon, etc, are in the same danger of running out as the engines are.
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well there wah this thing when the psamtik engaged the belisarius where it said someyhin like "comence plasma core insertion" ??? whats that all about???
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well there wah this thing when the psamtik engaged the belisarius where it said someyhin like "comence plasma core insertion" ??? whats that all about???
I would imagine it referenced activating some kind of secondary or tertiary power system that connected up to, and powered, the beam turret.
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Plus, another thing to remember about the psamtik taking down the belisaurius there was what type of beamage they used :p
The psamtik seemed to have a combat capability on the lines of being able to overcharge its weapons utilitizing extra energy. You only get to see the results of adding the extra power to that beam they used. And that was one serious beam. I mean, one hit, with it put a hole in that deimos. That was one overcharged beam :) I think the vasudan captain was showing his sentiments for the ntf :) Also the thing about that overcharged beam, was that it took a while to do, they had to do a whole extra procedure, as opposed to destroying the belisaurius with a salvo of beams. I guess if you have the time and opportunity to take an accurate shot, you might want the extra energy from the plasma core. That added some serious longevity to a vasudan beam, not to mention power, it blasted away the belisaurius which was at like 30 or 20 percent :p I know the deimos was weakened, but usually at 20 or 30% hull integrity, it takes a lot more beamage to destroy than just one beam. If you ask me, the plasma core energy sounds like adding an extra capacitor to the beam fire sequence, one serious capacitor. I say capacitor, because thats what you use to add instant jolts of energy to **** usually on any level of joltiness (reminds me of taking apart a disposable camera, ooww).
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Or :v: was just showing off. It was the first real mission in the game and if this didn't suck you in, nothing would.
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Also that you know opening with a couple of regular beam salvo's would be faster. Yes it was a show off, and it also was maybe a show off of unique vasudan beams, how they're different from terran beams.
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wasnt the psamtik equiped with the vasudan counterpart of the BFG?
Also i must say that was one very serious beam. I remember the first time i played FS2 i got blasted by the darn thing since i dont exactly know how i managed to get ring in its firing line. Lol. Oh well i remember thinking:"wtf. since when did they ad god's and stuff to the game??" man i re emeber laughing about that like crazy i even looked to see if i was playng the right game. Since well i only played a couple of missions from fs1 before that. Then completed fs2 and then completed fs1 the great war and silent threat.
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There is no Vasudan equivalent to the BFgreen. That one shot kill was all done with SEXPs.
The second thing I did with the Freespace 2 demo was text edited one of the levels to shoot me with an Sred to see how powerful it was. Needless to say it vaporized me instantly, but how else would I have learned?
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Oh yeah, that first mission might as well have been called 'We Got Beamzors!' ;)
Still as Ilya said, if that mission doesn't draw you into the game, nothing will :D
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Talk about lesson learned. Yeah it was sexps, in that case, they should have had the vasudans do something more practical, than say impossible :lol:
I did something with a shivan beam once on the last level of fs2 when i was flying the ares. I think it was a rakshasa in the last mission that fights a deimos. And that shivan beam was just never faded away, it was just right there, because shivan beams last the longest. So i flew through that thing, and i was taken for a fartmaster 100% to 15%. The beam looked narrow enough that if i flew through it, i was going to for ****s and giggles see if i would survive. I survived, and i was quite mad, for some reason i didn't think it'd hurt anywhere near that much. I don't know why i didn't think it'd hurt me so much :lol:
Also a note on the ares, is probably the most heavily armored fighter in the game, for terrans and possibly vasudans, i wouldn't say the same for the shivans. In short the ares is probably the only fighter that can survive such briefness with beams, weak ones at that :lol:
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Actually, the Belisaurius was so trashed to begin with it didn't need to be SEXP'd...
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well the how the hell do the shivans manage to recreate the same damage as the BFG? They overcharge theyr beam cannons each time they need the extra power? But if thats the case then in a prelongued battle the vasudans would actualy take damage to theyr own ship because of the overheat. Or do they actualy have more heat efficeient beams that allow them to overcharge them at will??
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Simple, their technology is more advanced than GTVA one and they don't need to overcharge their beams.
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well the how the hell do the shivans manage to recreate the same damage as the BFG?
By being substantially more advanced, as Ghostavo said.
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:eek2: :wtf: then why the hell are the terrans still using the crappy terran beams??
I mean why not adapt terran designs to incorporate shivan raectors and beams ??? :hopping:
Does this mean that if the big c had vasudan beam weapons it could of actualy done better then it did. imean not taking damage from the overheat?? :confused:
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:eek2: :wtf: then why the hell are the terrans still using the crappy terran beams??
I mean why not adapt terran designs to incorporate shivan raectors and beams ??? :hopping:
Does this mean that if the big c had vasudan beam weapons it could of actualy done better then it did. imean not taking damage from the overheat?? :confused:
They still use Terran beams because... it's all they have. They are not as advanced as the Shivans.
The Colossus "abused" of the GTVA's (note, GTVA, not mearly Terran) strongest capital ship mounted weapon. So...
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yeah i know it abused the strongest GTVA beam weapons.....er.....wait a sec.... do you mean to tell me that those beams on the Colossus were not terran green beams???
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yeah i know it abused the strongest GTVA beam weapons.....er.....wait a sec.... do you mean to tell me that those beams on the Colossus were not terran green beams???
Well, it was a joint project... and I don't recall that particular beam appearing anywhere else in the game.
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err this is really strange i was under the asumption all this time that the colossus had in fact terran grean beams. Just goes to prove how much i still have to learn about FS !
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Keep in mind I could be wrong and that GB could be solely Terran technology.
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Well yeah you could be wrong. But still i imagine that the use of vasudan beams on the Colossus could of been a much more fortunate choice for the crew and the ship.
Bummer. Just goes to prove how much brains the GTVA had when they used terran beams. On the other hand i dont know if the vasudans have a LRBG or rather its equivalent. this could be a posible reason. Range or rather the range gained by overcharging the beams.
Do vasudan beams increase theyr range when overcharged or do they just do more damage?
Cuz if the vasudan beam can do the same then GTVA are a bunch of idiots that could easely be ruled a by bald crippled monkey.
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Actually
Terran beams are the strongest in the game, they have the longest recharge periods
Vasudan beams are weaker than terrans, but they recharge a lot faster than terran beams
Shivan beams are not the strongest in the game, but they are damn efficient in recharge time and active beam time(which is what makes them extremely formidable.
The colossus does use green beams. I think they were bgreens if i remember correctly. Also noted in some of the tech descriptions of the vasudan sentry guns and the destruction of the knossos. The vasudans tend to leave the high powered weapons work like the meson bomb, sentry guns, etc. to the terrans to design. The colossus is a big vessel, it was a joint venture. Vasudans invented the flak cannon, so they made their contribution there. Terrans had more powerful beams, as i'm sure one of the aspects of the colossus was strength(they could have mounted more powerful beams like bfgreen or something). And with strength and what the colossus was designed for (wiping out vessels smaller than it). The colossus doesn't need to worry about refire speed, as it has enough beams to combine power with other beams on the warship, or fire off other beams as it sees fit.
None of the species beams sucks. They all work for each species respectively. And terran beams is "not the only thing they have" in that sense at all. Terrans and vasudans have had beams since a little after the great war (close to 32 years), that also means 32 years of weapons development. If you ask me, terran and vasudan beams work great. Another note, terran and vasudan fighters are a great deal more advanced than shivan fighters and bombers. Terran and vasudan warships tend to go along that line as well. Terrans and vasudans have superior fighter/bomber cover and deterrents than shivan vessels. I find shivan ships more approachable if it's me alone than enemy terran ships when i'm ordered to destroy a cruiser or something. Shivans rarely have fighter beams if not only having one or two AAA beams. The only real thing i would say are unique for the shivans is their great capship killing ability. Another detail about the colossus destroying the sath is that, instead of overcharging the beams, why didn't they just do some beam combining on that disabled jugg (or do leap beam leap frogging...one beam fires the next one in line fires next), well you can't ask that question because that mission was sexp'd most likely :lol:
Just thought about the monkey alternative as well.
A balled crippled monkey has the steel to rule over the gtva alphaone ;)
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:eek2: :wtf: then why the hell are the terrans still using the crappy terran beams??
I mean why not adapt terran designs to incorporate shivan raectors and beams ??? :hopping:
Does this mean that if the big c had vasudan beam weapons it could of actualy done better then it did. imean not taking damage from the overheat?? :confused:
Can you build a Pc from scratch, at an integrated circuit level?
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Dude, it's not about the inefficiencies of the terran beams.
It's about their strength for reason why they were mounted on a juggernaut, in such a large amount. When you have a ton of strong and slow beams, you can do **** like combine all their firepower at once, or leap frog the beams (fire the beams consecutively one after another). The only difference with having vasudan beams on the colossus would be a colossus with an accelerated refire rate, but not as powerful. Then again i opt for terran beams on the colossus because then it takes only a couple of hits with terrans beams, as opposed to a couple of more hits with vasudan beams.
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i thought vasudan beams were as strong as the terran ones! Man now im really getting scared cuz it turns out i dont know a great dael about fs as i thought.
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Shivan beamz pawn all.... hell they stay on for 7-8 seconds compared to 4 of the terrans/vasudan and do the same ammount of damage (if not more).
Shivans don't have better ship desing. They have better beamz...
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Exactomundo ;)
It's not that the shivans have perfect beams and the rest of the species don't. It's that the shivans have been able to develop and advance their weapon (it really is their weapon) for a much longer time.
But, yeah, even i still think shivan beams are a little too crazy. I don't know exactly how powerful shivan beams are, but i bet it's what trashman said, and also the idea he was getting after. That for shivans the length of time their beams last, and the short amount of time for a recharge, would still make up for lost strength either way.
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they do approx TWICE as much damage per hit than terran beams..and they fire faster...
So they are practicly 4 times stronger
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damn
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IIRC somebody (it was you, wasn't it TrashMan?) did a little experiment where they altered the numbers for duration, warmup, cooldown, and fire rate for Terran beams to match Shivan beams, but left the damage output numbers alone; the Shivan beams were still superior, but it was marginal.
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umm damn. those beams are well how should i put this.....sickeningli powerfull. Oh well nothing a couple of bemmbers and a few harbs or helios wont cure. Yeah just what the doctor ordered.
Also regarding the monkey do you know what kind of steel it uses??
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Shivan beamz pawn all.... hell they stay on for 7-8 seconds compared to 4 of the terrans/vasudan and do the same ammount of damage (if not more).
Shivans don't have better ship desing. They have better beamz...
Technically, the ship design also encapsulates the turrets and weaponry mounted on it.
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Yeah but if you look at the overall design of the shivan ships they welll kinda suck. Theyre onli good if you are on the receiving end. Have crappy AAAf defences and theyr beams can easely be taken out leaving them completely defenseless where as a GTVA vessels would still have a decen AAAf defence also since they ont have all of theyr beams mounted in the front its a lot more dificult to dissarm them.
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Yeah but if you look at the overall design of the shivan ships they welll kinda suck. Theyre onli good if you are on the receiving end. Have crappy AAAf defences and theyr beams can easely be taken out leaving them completely defenseless where as a GTVA vessels would still have a decen AAAf defence also since they ont have all of theyr beams mounted in the front its a lot more dificult to dissarm them.
That, I'd imagine, would be why the Shivans try to make sure it's the enemy on the receiving end and not themselves. After all, they've never been interested in holding territory.
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Yeah but if you look at the overall design of the shivan ships they welll kinda suck. Theyre onli good if you are on the receiving end. Have crappy AAAf defences and theyr beams can easely be taken out leaving them completely defenseless where as a GTVA vessels would still have a decen AAAf defence also since they ont have all of theyr beams mounted in the front its a lot more dificult to dissarm them.
To be fair, in the entire campaign, only twice you are not on the "receiving end". During Slaying Ravana, and during the whole Bearbaiting/mission afterwards (which trashed another destroyer and either destroys it or leaves it crippled).
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Yeah, shivan defenses can be chewed through not too hard. Shivan are very approachable if your in a bomber or fighter. Was it that hard taking out sath beams? NO, the only thing to piss you off is that the thing eventually warps out, and all 4 arms of the sath take a while to kill. The ravana is a lot less approachable, but you get up close and personal with it really good in a bomber when you destroy your first ravana. Great thing for shivan vessels, is trebuchets, tornadoes, and cyclopses (or helioses if available).
Regarding the monkey. The steel it uses are balls.
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I took the Ravana down to 1% and disarmed and disabled it in a Myrmidon in The Great Hunt notabley, realistically, the Ravana wouldn't sit there and take it.
Vasudan beams only do marginally less damage per pulse than Terran beams, the BVas does only marginally (~20) more sustained damage than the BGreen. The Shivan LRed does marginally LESS damage per pulse than the BGreen, but does 1.75X the sustained damage.
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LOL
This is starting to sound like the BWO project. In BWO, sol node gets fixed, and the earth forces start attacking(i don't know why), but the earth forces don't have beams, they use torpedos(aka bombs), and the gtva uses beams in place of torpedos. In fs2, it's sort of similar, but in a different fashion. The shivans have great beams, and usually take down capships with capships. When terran or vasudans take down capships, they deploy bombers with torperdos(aka bombs). With all those bombers doing most of the work for say the ravana, the capship will add in some assistance with its beams(like the mission with the vindicator).
Also, i remember the mission you take down the ravana, it reminded me of being in a lake as a fish taking chomps out of the bigger fish (ravana). I swear, because the ursa's and a boanerges were flying all around the ravana launching their bombs like that. It reminded me of goldfish eating food in a fish tank.
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IIRC somebody (it was you, wasn't it TrashMan?) did a little experiment where they altered the numbers for duration, warmup, cooldown, and fire rate for Terran beams to match Shivan beams, but left the damage output numbers alone; the Shivan beams were still superior, but it was marginal.
Yep, that was me... I just moved the terran and shivan fire wait and duration numbers a bit closer. Shivan beams were still superior, but now GTVA warships actually aren't destroyed in 10 seconds.
Oh yeah, I allso fixed the slashers and the SGreen to be something usefull...
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How usefull were they? No really i'm curios to know. what did u manage to do with them.
they werent like ridiculously overpowered were they ?
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I kinda like the original :v: weapon balancing. Nothing wrong with a few tweaks for mods i s'pose.
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The TerSlash and the Sgreen were already useful, just not for taking down anything larger than a cruiser. The cruisers didn't need to take down anything larger than themselves, now-a-days they're anti-fighter platforms.
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Good point. but still slahers sure make a bad impersion when mounted on a corvette. or a big capship.
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How usefull were they? No really i'm curios to know. what did u manage to do with them.
they werent like ridiculously overpowered were they ?
LOL...no.. I like my games balanced..so I gave each side something..
Vasudan beams (and turrets in general) have a big rate of fire but are slightly weaker than terran ones.
Terran ones are stronger, slightly slower, but have bigger range.
As for hte slashers, I have the TerSlash a bit more power..it was patheticly weak..and I reduced the fire wait for the SGreen....
I can't recall if I actually towned down all high-end beams or not, but I do recall Orion and Ravana showdowns..it ended either with mutual destruction or a ravana victory (very rarely did the Orion won..only 2 times methinks)
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Youre good! I like that! I'm starting to droll again!