Author Topic: Would a GTI or NTF victory have been worse?  (Read 3199 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline CT27

  • 211
Would a GTI or NTF victory have been worse?
I've done threads in the past about what would have happened in a GTI or NTF victory scenario. 

Which do you think would have been worse:  a GTI victory (ST/ST:R) or a NTF victory?

 

Offline 0rph3u5

  • 211
  • Oceans rise. Empires fall.
Re: Would a GTI or NTF victory have been worse?
 The question comes down to a few factors, particularly what the terms of that victory would be... e.g. a NTF victory might just consist of the recognition of the NTF as seperate state, with just the revocation of the the GTVA's claim to exclusive authority. Similarly, what if GTI overthrew the GTA but only after losing the Hades?*

*I know bot ST and STR make it so the GTI leadership is on Hades, so its destruction ends the Rebellion - but lets have that not be as clean cut for sake for argument
"As you sought to steal a kingdom for yourself, so must you do again, a thousand times over. For a theft, a true theft, must be practiced to be earned." - The terms of Nyrissa's curse, Pathfinder: Kingmaker

==================

"I am Curiosity, and I've always wondered what would become of you, here at the end of the world." - The Guide/The Curious Other, Othercide

"When you work with water, you have to know and respect it. When you labour to subdue it, you have to understand that one day it may rise up and turn all your labours into nothing. For what is water, which seeks to make all things level, which has no taste or colour of its own, but a liquid form of Nothing?" - Graham Swift, Waterland

"...because they are not Dragons."

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

  • HLP is my mistress
  • 213
  • Aken Tigh Dekker- you've probably heard me
    • My old squad sub-domain
Re: Would a GTI or NTF victory have been worse?
I'd have thought the Hades survivalb was the means through which GTI victory was achieved in this hypothetical.

I forget, were GTI anti Zod too?  I like the idea of a hades Armada.
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
NEWGROUNDS COMEDY GOLD, UPDATED DAILY
http://badges.steamprofile.com/profile/default/steam/76561198011784807.png

 

Offline Novachen

  • 29
  • The one and only capella supernova
    • Twitter
Re: Would a GTI or NTF victory have been worse?
GTI victory would be worse.
At least in the losing debriefing of ST:R's final mission that seems, that the Hades is on a rampage through the vasudan systems, simply killing everyone.

NTF victory however would only mean, that Sirius, Polaris and Regulus would gain independence from the GTVA.
I think the most problem for the Terran-Vasudan relations were the battles in the puffer zones of Deneb, Alpha Centauri and Epsilon Pegasi. Two of them are vasudan systems. And Alpha Centauri is also right between the current and the historic vasudan capital system.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2023, 11:16:21 am by Novachen »
Female FreeSpace 2 pilot since 1999.
Former Global moderator in the German FreeSpace Galaxy Forum.
Developer of NTP - A Multi-Language Translation Library Interface, which allows to play FreeSpace in YOUR Language.

Is one of my releases broken or not working? Please send a PM here, on Discord at @novachen or on Twitter @NovachenFS2, a public tweet or write a reply in my own release threads here on HLP, because these are the only threads i am still participating in.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

  • HLP is my mistress
  • 213
  • Aken Tigh Dekker- you've probably heard me
    • My old squad sub-domain
Re: Would a GTI or NTF victory have been worse?
Worse if you're a vasudan maybe.

 ;7
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
NEWGROUNDS COMEDY GOLD, UPDATED DAILY
http://badges.steamprofile.com/profile/default/steam/76561198011784807.png

 
Re: Would a GTI or NTF victory have been worse?
Arguably the NTF has already won: Bosch's whole goal was to talk to the Shivans. He has now done this. The rest was always irrelevant to him.

I do think that the NTF winning and securing its independence would be a massive problem in the long run. I can't see the terran-vasudan alliance lasting when it can't protect its own civilians from ethnic cleansing (although the NTF systems aren't techincally 'vasudan systems' doesn't mean that Vasudans didn't use to live there before the NTF happened).

As for the GTI, I can't see any situation in the FreeSpaceVerse where a attempt to subjegate (or even annihilate) the Vasudans would be helpful for anybody. Though the consequences that ST:R paints are catastrophic, any regime change in the GTA that prevents the GTVA from forming at all would be catastrophic in the long run what with the eventual shivan threat.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2023, 04:42:56 pm by Grizzly »

 

Offline 0rph3u5

  • 211
  • Oceans rise. Empires fall.
Re: Would a GTI or NTF victory have been worse?
I wouldn't, personally, say that Bosch contacting the Shivans qualifies as NTF victory ... Bosch destroys the NTF to do it, and the Monologue make clear that this result was always in the cards. He might zave been the leader but he only needed the NTF as a means to an end.

If the GTVA had given him a go-ahead for ETAK he probably would not have even involved in the NTF.
"As you sought to steal a kingdom for yourself, so must you do again, a thousand times over. For a theft, a true theft, must be practiced to be earned." - The terms of Nyrissa's curse, Pathfinder: Kingmaker

==================

"I am Curiosity, and I've always wondered what would become of you, here at the end of the world." - The Guide/The Curious Other, Othercide

"When you work with water, you have to know and respect it. When you labour to subdue it, you have to understand that one day it may rise up and turn all your labours into nothing. For what is water, which seeks to make all things level, which has no taste or colour of its own, but a liquid form of Nothing?" - Graham Swift, Waterland

"...because they are not Dragons."

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

  • HLP is my mistress
  • 213
  • Aken Tigh Dekker- you've probably heard me
    • My old squad sub-domain
Re: Would a GTI or NTF victory have been worse?
Soooo, this discussion, is counting the NTF and its political goals as a separate entity to Bosch and his personal objectives? (As it should)


In that case,  I still choo choo choose the GTI.
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
NEWGROUNDS COMEDY GOLD, UPDATED DAILY
http://badges.steamprofile.com/profile/default/steam/76561198011784807.png

 
Re: Would a GTI or NTF victory have been worse?
If the GTVA had given him a go-ahead for ETAK he probably would not have even involved in the NTF.

Right, but in that case the NTF would not have existed to begin with, right?

 

Offline 0rph3u5

  • 211
  • Oceans rise. Empires fall.
Re: Would a GTI or NTF victory have been worse?
The NTF might have been inevitable, even without Bosch.

Considering the force he was able to amass and the devotion of the ideas of Neo-Terra inspired, the social currents Bosch gribed hold of might have coalesed anyway. In the monologues that point is also alluded to (something something being unable to stop what I created something something).

Remember that the underlying psychology of the GTVA is fear of the Shivan threat, which is sure to inspire a counter-culture; including seeking a more readily availible other to turn into an evil that justifies any action.

However the process that created the NTF in canon is pretty vague, alllusions are made to a few tropes e.g. a "golden age"-narrative. So the assumption of a Bosch-less NTF can be safe.
"As you sought to steal a kingdom for yourself, so must you do again, a thousand times over. For a theft, a true theft, must be practiced to be earned." - The terms of Nyrissa's curse, Pathfinder: Kingmaker

==================

"I am Curiosity, and I've always wondered what would become of you, here at the end of the world." - The Guide/The Curious Other, Othercide

"When you work with water, you have to know and respect it. When you labour to subdue it, you have to understand that one day it may rise up and turn all your labours into nothing. For what is water, which seeks to make all things level, which has no taste or colour of its own, but a liquid form of Nothing?" - Graham Swift, Waterland

"...because they are not Dragons."

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

  • HLP is my mistress
  • 213
  • Aken Tigh Dekker- you've probably heard me
    • My old squad sub-domain
Re: Would a GTI or NTF victory have been worse?
14 year war with zods.  Plenty ot time for hate to grow.  People who'd lost relatives.   Constant combat with them, losing squadmates you've known since the academy.
Bitter veterans passing the resentment onto their kids etc.
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
NEWGROUNDS COMEDY GOLD, UPDATED DAILY
http://badges.steamprofile.com/profile/default/steam/76561198011784807.png

 
Re: Would a GTI or NTF victory have been worse?
14 year war with zods.  Plenty ot time for hate to grow.  People who'd lost relatives.   Constant combat with them, losing squadmates you've known since the academy.
Bitter veterans passing the resentment onto their kids etc.
One would think that humans would be beyond such things by then...
'Teeth of the Tiger' - campaign in the making
Story, Ships, Weapons, Project Leader.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

  • HLP is my mistress
  • 213
  • Aken Tigh Dekker- you've probably heard me
    • My old squad sub-domain
Re: Would a GTI or NTF victory have been worse?
You'd think, but combat vets have higher suicide rates than most for a reason.

Emotional damaaaaage.

14 years of war on a civilised society will hit no small percentage hard.  Frontliners hardest, but they're only people.  What happens to them will affect their family.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2023, 04:57:41 am by Colonol Dekker »
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
NEWGROUNDS COMEDY GOLD, UPDATED DAILY
http://badges.steamprofile.com/profile/default/steam/76561198011784807.png

  
Re: Would a GTI or NTF victory have been worse?
14 year war with zods.  Plenty ot time for hate to grow.  People who'd lost relatives.   Constant combat with them, losing squadmates you've known since the academy.
Bitter veterans passing the resentment onto their kids etc.
One would think that humans would be beyond such things by then...

Biologically they should be pretty much the same beings that invented agriculture millenia ago though.

The NTF might have been inevitable, even without Bosch.

Considering the force he was able to amass and the devotion of the ideas of Neo-Terra inspired, the social currents Bosch gribed hold of might have coalesed anyway. In the monologues that point is also alluded to (something something being unable to stop what I created something something).

While the politicial stage wasnt prepared by him,  :v-old: emphasized that Bosch put quite a lot of his own agenda into it. Also, w/o his support (ie military backing the governemnt and -possibly- allowing to take over in the first place) the course of events would've been much different, although *how exactly* seems almost impossible to me.

14 years of war on a civilised society will hit no small percentage hard.  Frontliners hardest, but they're only people.  What happens to them will affect their family.

One should consider that the colonies (ie. the systems that make up the Terran part of GTVA) were both the battleground of the TV-War and the Great War while GTA command was sitting relatively safe in Sol.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

  • HLP is my mistress
  • 213
  • Aken Tigh Dekker- you've probably heard me
    • My old squad sub-domain
Re: Would a GTI or NTF victory have been worse?
Nobody's saying its exclusively an earth born staff.
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
NEWGROUNDS COMEDY GOLD, UPDATED DAILY
http://badges.steamprofile.com/profile/default/steam/76561198011784807.png

 
Re: Would a GTI or NTF victory have been worse?
I presume it still would likely be though, simply bc it is repeadetly said that Earth was still the center of Terran civilisation. AFAIK it is never stated when colonisation started but I'd presume not too long before the TV war started as it is implied that it broke out not too long after first contact and Vasuda is rather close to Sol.

So for non-Earth staff you'd have to be born in a colony + old enough to rise high in military ranks. Now how long that would take is  something I cant tell though.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

  • HLP is my mistress
  • 213
  • Aken Tigh Dekker- you've probably heard me
    • My old squad sub-domain
Re: Would a GTI or NTF victory have been worse?
I hear what youre saying., and im listening, and take on board your points good sir :)

London is still the capital of the UK, but our armed forces are still a motley mix of Geordie, scouse, jock, "other" and the like.  Maybe even the odd taff or Fijiian in certain well regarded regiments.
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
NEWGROUNDS COMEDY GOLD, UPDATED DAILY
http://badges.steamprofile.com/profile/default/steam/76561198011784807.png