Author Topic: What do you want in the rest of War in Heaven?  (Read 187977 times)

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Offline General Battuta

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Re: What do you want in the rest of War in Heaven?
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The UEF has only had about two generations to evolve away from its GTA roots and has managed to do so to an almost farcical extent.

Really? The UEF has been in power in Sol far longer than the GTA was. Compare American in 1950 to the year 2000, or perhaps more fittingly pre-Communist Russia to Russia 50 years later, and you'll see that this kind of change does happen.

The GTA 'roots' were never really there, given how short-lived the GTA was. In particular we looked at some reference material in the FreeSpace Bible that painted the GTA as more of a NATO than a true nation, a bit deprived of sociopolitical soft power.

Lastly, there's an explicit statement in the FreeSpace 2 techroom entry on Earth that radical social change would have had to have occurred in Sol. I think we're on solid ground there.

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There has to exist a segment of the population who identifies with the GTA more than the UEF simply because they were born and raised in a time when the GTA existed and was fighting the Vasudans.

Hrm. Did you read the techroom entries? Admiral Calder was, I believe, explicitly stated to have been an officer under the GTA, though I could be misremembering.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2010, 07:35:25 am by General Battuta »

 

Offline -Norbert-

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Re: What do you want in the rest of War in Heaven?
There certainly are at least some GTVA sympathisers in the UEF.
Either that or the GTVI must have super great spys to get an agent with a bomb on board an Elders ship, or get someone on board of the wargods AWACS....

After finally getting through the last mission on difficulty two I found out that I dearly wish for the FREDers to stop disbling half the commands I can give to my wingmates.
Seriously.... The enemy is overcharging their beams resulting in an insta-kill and the only one who can be bothered to do something against it is Laporte? And you can't even order the other fighters to help you take out those beams!
After several attempts I was screaming bloody murder at whoever got that bright idea....

I don't mind a challenge, but having to take out 8 beam cannons all alone in 60 seconds while under constant bombardment from at the very least three AAA beams, two FLAK, several blobs and two pyranhia launchers at all times is just way too much. On very easy I didn't really notice how ****ed up that part is, but now that I played it on easy I really don't want to know how it plays on higher difficulty.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: What do you want in the rest of War in Heaven?
There certainly are at least some GTVA sympathisers in the UEF.
Either that or the GTVI must have super great spys to get an agent with a bomb on board an Elders ship, or get someone on board of the wargods AWACS....

After finally getting through the last mission on difficulty two I found out that I dearly wish for the FREDers to stop disbling half the commands I can give to my wingmates.
Seriously.... The enemy is overcharging their beams resulting in an insta-kill and the only one who can be bothered to do something against it is Laporte? And you can't even order the other fighters to help you take out those beams!

We removed those disarm orders intentionally, because if you issue them, the entire mission breaks. All friendly ships will stop targeting the corvettes.

The way the FreeSpace Open engine handles disarm orders is extremely unpleasant. You'd be better off using 'destroy target subsystem'.

Furthermore your wingmen are issued orders to attack the beam cannons on their own.

 

Offline -Norbert-

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Re: What do you want in the rest of War in Heaven?
Then I guess something must be broken on my end, because non of the fighters was trying to take out those beams. Only the Karunas were shooting their torpedoes at the beams, but for some reason did only negligible damage to them (special mission based anti-bomb armor for the turrets would be my guess).

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You'd be better off using 'destroy target subsystem'.
That is actually the very command I wanted to use, but couldn't because it's deactivated.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: What do you want in the rest of War in Heaven?
Seriously? Did you have the turret targeted?

Beta wing at least has destroy subsystem enabled.

 

Offline Qent

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Re: What do you want in the rest of War in Heaven?
What do I want in the rest of the WIH campaign? Well... in no particular order..
It's about time! :lol:

Just a couple things:
12) More tutorial missions. In an epic moment of RTFM, I still have no idea how to reverse thrust or stuff like that, and a few training missions would help out with that.
Yeah, there's really no way to know that the decelerate key is also reverse thrust. A directive keypress in Intervention might do the trick.

13) Please don't force me to fly the Kentauroi anymore. It's like a paper airplane soaked in gasoline. I'd like at least to be able to choose the Uhlan instead.
Placebo effect? The Uhlan isn't strictly tougher than the Kentauroi.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: What do you want in the rest of War in Heaven?
What do I want in the rest of the WIH campaign? Well... in no particular order..
It's about time! :lol:

Just a couple things:
12) More tutorial missions. In an epic moment of RTFM, I still have no idea how to reverse thrust or stuff like that, and a few training missions would help out with that.
Yeah, there's really no way to know that the decelerate key is also reverse thrust. A directive keypress in Intervention might do the trick.

Well, we did our best to make it explicit: Simms says "You've even got reverse afterburners; put the throttle in reverse and kick the burners to try them out.".

13) Please don't force me to fly the Kentauroi anymore. It's like a paper airplane soaked in gasoline. I'd like at least to be able to choose the Uhlan instead.
Placebo effect? The Uhlan isn't strictly tougher than the Kentauroi.
[/quote]

Indeed, the Kent has comparable hitpoints to the Uhlan. Methinks it's placebo.

 

Offline -Norbert-

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Re: What do you want in the rest of War in Heaven?
I may be mistaken, but I got the feeling that the Uhlan recharges it's shields faster, making it a bit more survivable when ignoring the Kents better chances to dodge incoming fire.

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Seriously? Did you have the turret targeted?
No... I never target a turret I try to shoot... why would I?
Joking aside:
After failing the fourth time I just cheated myself invulnerable, ignored everything else and just observed the situation and no fighter, including beta wing, shot at either of the corvettes, though to be fair gamma wing was alread wiped out, so I can't say what they would have done.

On very easy someone must have shot at the turrets, since I only had to destroy six of them, but on easy only the Karunas attacked the turrets (rather ineffectively). Maybe Beta was too busy with dodging incoming fire or something, but they didn't attack, much less destroy, any of the beam turrets.

 

Offline Avatar

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Re: What do you want in the rest of War in Heaven?
Wow. I suppose it is the placebo effect. Ahh well. It MIGHT have something to do with my first Uhlan experiences being flying against pilots that were mostly ignoring me, and my first Kent experience being "Get blown up four times by super Erinyes focusing on me". That tends to make one feel frail.

Oh. When Simms said "put the throttle in reverse", I thought she meant something a lot like the 'go to full speed' command, some single keystroke that reversed speed. I didn't know. "start braking" maybe? Though that might imply just hitting backspace... I dunno man. I think "the decelerate key is reverse thrust" would have clarified it nicely.

Hmmm. I had imagined the GTA existing in some respect for years, possibly decades before the Vasudan war, but imagination != canon. Wouldn't the GTVA's descent from the GTA's loose union make it more appealing to the federation states? Especially the ones that aren't targeted because of their "dangerous" Ubuntu philosophy?

The comparison between pre and post communist revolution Russia is very apt indeed, but I change my question to "so where's all the White Solarians?". Where's Radio Free Sol at? I -can- accept all of Earth getting caught up in this idealogical movement, but... hmm. I suppose Mars and Jupiter got flooded with the anti-Ubuntu immigrants, which is why their characters are initially abrasive towards Laporte. I find it hard to accept that the entire Solar civilization is behind this war overtly, and really want to see legitimate political figures and movements that don't support resisting the Alliance. Whole asteroid habitats or moon colonies declaring their independence from the federation and signing pacts of membership in the GTVA, that sort of thing. Similarly I wonder where the UEF-sympathetic members of the GTVA are, though honestly a little less so because I think we spend enough time with their brand of navel-gazing in WIH1. The UEF is so provincial and insular that Laporte, who sympathizes with the GTVA rather openly, doesn't even think that there might be something as beautiful as Luna City. Though maybe she was referring to the feeling of peace and security in Sol, somewhere else in Terran-Vasudan space, like all the parts of Vasudan space that didn't get hit by post-Capella stress. The less of that level of self-absorption, the better I say.

Quote from: Dilmah G
I don't think a full on training mission would have been a practical part of the story the team wanted, since it starts with Laporte as a first tourist rather than an Offcut at the Operational Conversion Unit.

First what now? Kidding aside; I understand but disagree. After all, this is a "what does X internet hobo want from the campaign" thread. I seem to recall a few "get some simulator time in" comments in mission briefings that left me saying "I'M TRYING MAN I'M TRYING" out loud to my computer screen. If I had to sortie an argument for hand-holding in future WiH missions... well, if you're going to present a story composed of a series of impossihard missions with lots and lots of simultaneous objectives, it would be nice if you prepared the player for it subtly or overtly beyond merely saying "this is going to be hard". I failed Intervention a number of times simply because I was concentrating on flying instead of reading the text; similarly I found the level of stuff I had to do in the leadup to the Carthage missions was bananas and really wished I'd had a level that was about reversing course and doing the fly one way point another trick. I certainly appreciate and understand that making a level to handhold the noobs through some of these features is about as interesting as counting grains of sand, but I have to point out that it could be of some practicality to do so. Moving some dialogue out of giant text screens and into the mission while this goes on would help bring out the secondary wingmen (if they're around) and allow for character advancement. It would also help give a sense of time elapsed. If you have two pitched battle missions one after the other separated by a time of weeks or months, no matter how much I understand text describing that I'll still feel like battle two is happening on the next day because I didn't get to experience anything else. I mean not to argue for some fluff mission whenever time is passing, merely to point out that there are many practical roles for downtime or low-stress missions in a war story. A Perfect Moment being a good example.

As a further aside: How come the Carthage didn't launch successive trebuchet strikes on the UEF beam jammer, and then vaporize everyone with beam fire? I dunno how much tougher the UEF electronic warfare vessel is than the GTVA equivelants, but even so there were tons and tons and tons of heavy fighters that could have TAGed it or stood off at five KM salvoing trebs then subspaced back to the Carthage for rearm while the entire Carthage battlegroup opened the range and emptied its long range missile inventory into the beam jammer. I found myself imagining the scene in the credits where the Imperieuse and the Carthage withdraw involving Steele executing Carthage's CO for hilarious incompetence and her bridge crew for not mutinying at their insanely bad battle plan.

Though Steele might be going after GTVA high command next for allowing the war to go this crazily. Half the GTVA fleet includes at least a dozen Hecates plus escort and fighter wings, and god knows how many Orions and Titans and Raynors and lions and tigers and bears. Why not just sit at the gate, building up an unstoppable fleet of destroyers, and subspace it into Earth orbit? Check and mate; the GTVA could send about a dozen AWACs to jam short and long range communications and torpedo lock. Earth can't resist with its now-isolated military, Mars and Jupiter are too weak to break the resulting blockade, Tevs land on Earth and resupply their force from there, and start packing away the religious dictatorship. In eighteen months time, opportunistic Martian and Jovian traders reopen ties with GTVA controlled Earth and begin legitimizing that regime. Earth's beginning to stabilize around its new government, Sam Bei sees that a GTVA victory has been achieved with minimal loss of life mostly due to stubborn UEF resistance, and brings his immense and strategically valuable knowledge of the shivans and vishnans to the GTVA in exchange for clemency to all GTVA defectors to the UEF side. The now-unified Terrans share The Plot (as learned from the Bei family) with the Vasudans, make a huge PR victory out of releasing the Elders from confinement to continue their quantum wave juju under GTVA auspices in order to further understand and avoid the Shivan threat... and they all lived happily ever after?

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: What do you want in the rest of War in Heaven?
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I found myself imagining the scene in the credits where the Imperieuse and the Carthage withdraw involving Steele executing Carthage's CO for hilarious incompetence and her bridge crew for not mutinying at their insanely bad battle plan.


Except, you know, the whole thing was a part of his plan to catch the attacking force too deep for them to withdraw.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: What do you want in the rest of War in Heaven?
Hmmm. I had imagined the GTA existing in some respect for years, possibly decades before the Vasudan war, but imagination != canon. Wouldn't the GTVA's descent from the GTA's loose union make it more appealing to the federation states? Especially the ones that aren't targeted because of their "dangerous" Ubuntu philosophy?

The comparison between pre and post communist revolution Russia is very apt indeed, but I change my question to "so where's all the White Solarians?". Where's Radio Free Sol at? I -can- accept all of Earth getting caught up in this idealogical movement, but... hmm. I suppose Mars and Jupiter got flooded with the anti-Ubuntu immigrants, which is why their characters are initially abrasive towards Laporte. I find it hard to accept that the entire Solar civilization is behind this war overtly, and really want to see legitimate political figures and movements that don't support resisting the Alliance.

Who says they are? You can count on the fact that the war is a divisive issue. But given that the UEF has existed longer than the GTA ever did in Sol, that most of the human species canonically exists in Sol, and that the GTVA attacked without provocation - simple human psychology is going to make the UEF population indignant. Who are these colonial upstarts attacking the hub of human civilization without provocation or warning?

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Whole asteroid habitats or moon colonies declaring their independence from the federation and signing pacts of membership in the GTVA, that sort of thing.

Again, though I'm sure some have (notice all those Gef asteroid habitats cooperating with the GTVA...?), would many people tied into the economically prosperous, massively populous UEF want to give up and defect to a small group of military-governed colonists who represent a small fraction of the human race? Especially after this humiliating surprise attack!

But the complaint seems a bit odd given that there's a subplot about a mole in the UEF feeding information to the GTVA. There are even hints!  ;7

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Similarly I wonder where the UEF-sympathetic members of the GTVA are

Well there was a whole subplot with someone in the GTVA passing info to the UEF too, mind.

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The UEF is so provincial and insular that Laporte, who sympathizes with the GTVA rather openly, doesn't even think that there might be something as beautiful as Luna City. Though maybe she was referring to the feeling of peace and security in Sol, somewhere else in Terran-Vasudan space, like all the parts of Vasudan space that didn't get hit by post-Capella stress. The less of that level of self-absorption, the better I say.

It may arguably be self-absorption, but again, given that the bulk of the human population and industrial/social/political base exists in Sol - by canon! - it's not unjustified. It's like Rome having a war with the Cherokee Nations, only the Cherokee have assault rifles and a good reason. Also remember that Laporte is probably intimately familiar with the GTVA's history and culture, which is at the moment characterized by fear and a need for security rather than exploration and investment.

(And if I sound pro-UEF it's for the sake of balancing the scales, I'm happy to argue the other side).

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a story composed of a series of impossihard missions with lots and lots of simultaneous objectives

Hey, this **** got heavily playtested. You may just need to turn it down a bit? We got a number of complaints that the missions were too easy and players didn't have to do anything, so we suspect we managed to land in the middle of the difficulty range.

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I certainly appreciate and understand that making a level to handhold the noobs through some of these features is about as interesting as counting grains of sand, but I have to point out that it could be of some practicality to do so.

Well there is the Kentauroi Race mission in the techroom which fits the bill perfectly. Maybe we should have dropped it into the campaign.

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Moving some dialogue out of giant text screens and into the mission while this goes on would help bring out the secondary wingmen (if they're around) and allow for character advancement.

Eek! No more room for messages in missions, too much as it was!

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As a further aside: How come the Carthage didn't launch successive trebuchet strikes on the UEF beam jammer, and then vaporize everyone with beam fire? I dunno how much tougher the UEF electronic warfare vessel is than the GTVA equivelants, but even so there were tons and tons and tons of heavy fighters that could have TAGed it or stood off at five KM salvoing trebs then subspaced back to the Carthage for rearm while the entire Carthage battlegroup opened the range and emptied its long range missile inventory into the beam jammer. I found myself imagining the scene in the credits where the Imperieuse and the Carthage withdraw involving Steele executing Carthage's CO for hilarious incompetence and her bridge crew for not mutinying at their insanely bad battle plan.

Uh-huh, and then the Wargods pull out, the Imperieuse has nothing to kill and the whole trap fails. The Carthage was playing a role, remember?

Anyway, from the UEF side - since ECM in BP uses the Power of Plot, the Hanuman could probably have just jammed the seeker heads of the incoming warheads. 'Contrived!' you may call, but in fact WiH R2 has capship-scale countermeasures which would do the trick perfectly.  :cool: That'll likely help against those sorts of Trebuchet blizzards.

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Though Steele might be going after GTVA high command next for allowing the war to go this crazily. Half the GTVA fleet includes at least a dozen Hecates plus escort and fighter wings, and god knows how many Orions and Titans and Raynors and lions and tigers and bears. Why not just sit at the gate, building up an unstoppable fleet of destroyers, and subspace it into Earth orbit? Check and mate; the GTVA could send about a dozen AWACs to jam short and long range communications and torpedo lock.

They can't support that kind of force in Sol (node throughput is not adequate to supply everyone on this side, and constantly rotating the ships back through the node for logistics would strain both the ships and the Delta Serpentis logistical tail. They're basically running at maximum population cap (in RTS terms) in Sol.

Most of all is the question I ask below - can the GTVA even take a hostile Sol? How is it going to occupy these planets in any meaningful way? Destroy them, sure, but occupy them productively? I don't know. It needs to force a surrender more than it needs to force, say, massive landings.

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Earth can't resist with its now-isolated military, Mars and Jupiter are too weak to break the resulting blockade, Tevs land on Earth and resupply their force from there, and start packing away the religious dictatorship.

How, though? Where is the GTVA going to dig up enough troops to occupy a system that out-populates its entire population (in canon!)?

And hey, the UEF is neither religious nor a dictatorship. It's just got a somewhat permanent steering committee!  ;)

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In eighteen months time, opportunistic Martian and Jovian traders reopen ties with GTVA controlled Earth and begin legitimizing that regime. Earth's beginning to stabilize around its new government

Stabilize around a government that replaced a hugely economically successful 50-year-old juggernaught that has ruled Sol longer than the GTA ever did? I dunno, seems dicey.

Remember, people like governments that make them happy, safe, and rich. Sol has been all three, while the GTVA has had to turn itself into an anti-Shivan aegis at the cost of public support.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2010, 02:33:51 pm by General Battuta »

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: What do you want in the rest of War in Heaven?
Oops, and I forgot another reason the GTVA doesn't Zerg Sol with all its destroyers, which is the fact that it is stubbornly, almost paranoically committed to maintaining readiness in case the Shivans show up again. They want the bulk of their heavy hitters to be ready to come down on the first sign of trouble.

Plus it's in the GTVA's interests to drag things out (or at first they thought it would be). Break UEF morale, get a surrender, get solar system infrastructure intact.

See, we think about these things!

 

Offline -Sara-

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Re: What do you want in the rest of War in Heaven?
I'm wondering if one of the UEF destroyers will meet it's faith, to empathise that the war's getting grim.
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Offline Avatar

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Re: What do you want in the rest of War in Heaven?
Quote from: General Battuta
Oops, and I forgot another reason the GTVA doesn't Zerg Sol with all its destroyers, which is the fact that it is stubbornly, almost paranoically committed to maintaining readiness in case the Shivans show up again. They want the bulk of their heavy hitters to be ready to come down on the first sign of trouble.
That would be interesting to look in on, actually - a meeting where GTVA top brass talked about how the war should have gone. Where their paranoia can be shown off, by having people say "look, a three month window is all I need to smash their mobile forces with a fleet made of BGs 5, 6, 8, 12, 16, and 19" and it's still denied due to the fear of Shivan incursion. As an added bonus, looking in on that would make it seem like both factions are being run by crazy people (which is apparently true), which would help the UEF's position. It'd also resonate with Laporte's "they lost something" comment.

I would think that a rapid assault would secure a lot of highly essential infrastructure - I'm thinking of the fuel refineries at neptune, the orbital shipyards and habitats - without requiring extensive occupation. Critical facilities on the surface could have dedicated Cruiser based orbital fire support backing up small defensive forces. Not every useful bit of infrastructure on Earth is going to be in an urban area, where your comments about population would be more relevant.

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But the complaint seems a bit odd given that there's a subplot about a mole in the UEF feeding information to the GTVA. There are even hints!
I acknowledge there is some cloak and daggery stuff going on there, but what I was looking for was someone getting on television and publicly aligning with the alliance. The GTVA would almost assuredly be pushing, hard, for this wherever they had influence.

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It's like Rome having a war with the Cherokee Nations
I'm pretty sure the Peloponnesian War is a somewhat better example, what with the threat/excuse of the Persians mirroring the threat of the Shivans. The two different cultural blocks clashing after a period of divergent evolution and reduced contact is similar as well. At the very least, I interpreted the UEF/GTVA conflict as much more like the Peloponnesian War :) and thus expected more publicly fluid relations between members of each coalition. I'd say Laporte and the UEF are too intensely focused on the militarism of the GTVA; the colonists almost certainly have pretty cities, peaceful towns, arts, music and love too. Which... I dunno. It still makes me feel that Laporte and the UEF are incredibly self absorbed and petty. A person died. A ship died. A city died. The stakes in the future of humanity are whole worlds. The Shivans have shown this, and the UEF are crying over papercuts. This makes the concealment of Bei and the Elders' reticence to discuss their contact with Vishnans and Shivans publicly into crimes against humanity. The sheer arrogance involved in keeping that information to themselves crosses the threshold of insanity. The entire species faces imminent and avoidable extinction, and the people who have scientific proof have kept it to themselves.

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Stabilize around a government that replaced a hugely economically successful 50-year-old juggernaught that has ruled Sol longer than the GTA ever did? I dunno, seems dicey.

Remember, people like governments that make them happy, safe, and rich. Sol has been all three, while the GTVA has had to turn itself into an anti-Shivan aegis at the cost of public support.

In the blitzkrieg scenario, the GTVA can rightly point out that happy and rich and not safe might not be as good as safe. Furthermore, the shrewd decision would be to keep the positions and bureaucracy the same and change faces. Install puppets, so to speak. The Ubuntu leadership still organizes starship construction and allocates funds and so forth. That way, there is no "replacement", the UEF is ostensibly a member of the GTVA. Though I doubt they could find charismatic enough puppets to convince the Solarians that things are going more or less back to normal while contributing massive resources to the war effort. It would be possible for the GTVA to try, though, and potentially deliver. The more damage they do to the shipping and infrastructure in Sol with their long-term strategy, the less likely any replacement they present is going to satisfy people. A steamroller present the opportunity to visit as little disruption as possible... ah well. The GTVA is already committed to a very silly approach.

I'm serious though, it would be really wonderful to get a quick textbox describing one of the many meetings between GTVA and UEF diplomats, just to know what the current sticking points have become.

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Hey, this **** got heavily playtested. You may just need to turn it down a bit? We got a number of complaints that the missions were too easy and players didn't have to do anything, so we suspect we managed to land in the middle of the difficulty range.
While I don't doubt this, you may wish to get less pro playtesters. I could do AoA on medium difficulty, but had to switch to very easy to finish WiH. Lategame missions are often prone to failure if Laporte doesn't get involved and do a ton of stuff, and with the aforementioned framerate issue it's really hard to deliver a badass performance at 9 FPS. (Edit: I am a moron and ran inferno debug and thought it would have similar framerate ahahaha I'm sorry) Then again oftentimes I'd try a mission, lose horribly three times, then try again and win with flying colors.

Also: My understanding was that the Carthage wasn't in on Steele's plan and thus was fighting genuinely. I retract my statements there :)

« Last Edit: September 19, 2010, 06:42:31 pm by Avatar »

 

Offline -Norbert-

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Re: What do you want in the rest of War in Heaven?
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The stakes in the future of humanity are whole worlds. The Shivans have shown this, and the UEF are crying over papercuts. This makes the concealment of Bei and the Elders' reticence to discuss their contact with Vishnans and Shivans publicly into crimes against humanity. The sheer arrogance involved in keeping that information to themselves crosses the threshold of insanity.
You forget that there is more than one viewpoint on the Shivans!
Some (almost asuredly including the Eldars and Admiral Byrne) beliefe that sooner or later the Shivans will wipe out the "destroyers". And the GTVA fits that label. They try to steer Humanity away from that path, so the Shivans will let them live.
So the UEF isn't fighting over some "papercuts", but over the very survival of the Human race.

 

Offline The E

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Re: What do you want in the rest of War in Heaven?
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While I don't doubt this, you may wish to get less pro playtesters. I could do AoA on medium difficulty, but had to switch to very easy to finish WiH. Lategame missions are often prone to failure if Laporte doesn't get involved and do a ton of stuff, and with the aforementioned framerate issue it's really hard to deliver a badass performance at 9 FPS. Then again oftentimes I'd try a mission, lose horribly three times, then try again and win with flying colors.

We got Androgeos, who only plays on easy, to test this. Also, the fact that you need to go out and do stuff was a design goal; we didn't want to run into the 158 trap of self-playing missions.

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I would think that a rapid assault would secure a lot of highly essential infrastructure - I'm thinking of the fuel refineries at neptune, the orbital shipyards and habitats - without requiring extensive occupation. Critical facilities on the surface could have dedicated Cruiser based orbital fire support backing up small defensive forces. Not every useful bit of infrastructure on Earth is going to be in an urban area, where your comments about population would be more relevant.

You are still talking about something that, in real world terms, would be equivalent of the US running a Blitz takeover of Europe. Could they hold critical infrastructure points using military force? Yes. Do they have a hope of effectively controlling what they hold? No. You are talking about a hostile force trying to occupy a planetary system that has a population of all the GTVA systems combined. And the fancy infrastructure that is the objective of this war won't help you if you don't have the people that make it all work.
The only hope the GTVA has is reaching a surrender, preferably negotiated, because an occupatuin by force just isn't practical.

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I acknowledge there is some cloak and daggery stuff going on there, but what I was looking for was someone getting on television and publicly aligning with the alliance. The GTVA would almost assuredly be pushing, hard, for this wherever they had influence.

Who said that didn't happen? Just because Laporte doesn't see it, or the other characters don't mention it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

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This makes the concealment of Bei and the Elders' reticence to discuss their contact with Vishnans and Shivans publicly into crimes against humanity. The sheer arrogance involved in keeping that information to themselves crosses the threshold of insanity.

The GTVA doesn't tell people about the Vishnans either. Because they fear that
People won't really react rationally when they get told that there's a second omnipotent species out there that in addition to being scarily advanced can also subvert entire ships' crews?

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In the blitzkrieg scenario, the GTVA can rightly point out that happy and rich and not safe might not be as good as safe.

That's what they're trying to do. It won't work, because Earth WAS save, until SOMEONE reopened that jump node. Think about that for a minute.
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I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Avatar

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Re: What do you want in the rest of War in Heaven?
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We got Androgeos, who only plays on easy, to test this. Also, the fact that you need to go out and do stuff was a design goal; we didn't want to run into the 158 trap of self-playing missions.
You definately succeded :lol: I just... I dunno. I'll have to meditate on it and try and come up with why I didn't have as much fun this time around as before.... I mean, AoA had just as failure prone missions with just as much running around like a chicken with its head cut off, but for some reason it didn't quite click with me.

And - your metaphor isn't quite complete. It's like the US running a blitz takeover of europe, when the US has a pressing, possibly immediate need for european resources and extremely powerful weapons with no fallout, and the europeans have almost no ability to intercept american deployments anywhere on the ground. What are UEF loyalists on the ground going to do with the orbital infrastructure under GTVA control? Lob ICBMs at it? Fly fighters up through the atmosphere and a curtain of antiaircraft fire to try and strike at it? Specialists and personnel can be bribed, abducted, or even just hired legitimately, or imported from the colonies if the earth folk want to be really truly stubborn. The GTVA could very easily reduce Earth to essentially 20th century technology with precision bombardment, commando strikes, and ruling orbit with an iron AAAf.

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Who said that didn't happen? Just because Laporte doesn't see it, or the other characters don't mention it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Mmmmh... from a universe building point of view I totally agree. However, if it doesn't show up in tech room articles or the main story, and isn't implicit from other events, then it might not have happened from the point of view of a player. Restricting the POV to Laporte really curtails the ability to show interesting and relevant events like that. From the POV of someone playing the campaign... yeah, it didn't happen. It might have happened, but it might not have.

Anyone could have reopened the Sol jump node. There are two powers that have demonstrated that capability - the Shivans, who when last seen at the Solar jump node were gettin' ready to get crazy on Planet Earth - and the GTVA, who bad as they may be don't actually go around burning planets to a crisp. I'm not sure anyone can wholly discredit the GTVA's offer of improved security in that fashion.

As for the Shivans, Vishnans, and proof of their existance... the GTVA ships that didn't defect encountered the Vishnans in another universe. That's not necessarily a credible threat - anyone can ask "well, have you seen them in THIS universe". The Elders and Space Family Bei on the other hand have had direct contact with the Vishnans and Shivans, and particularly the Elders have some way of scientifically detecting this contact and monitoring its presence. However their Nagari detectors are built is presumbly replicable. Broadcasting the specifications for their construction, demonstrating their nature, getting independent confirmation of the phenomenon from the Vasudans all has zero chance of harming the UEF war effort and a massive chance of getting the GTVA to pay attention to the rest of the Elders' dogmatic nonsense. The GTVA's been in the business of messing up the Shivans for a while, it'd be insane if they didn't even build a prototype, or dig out the old data on ETAK to see what matched up. Once this communication is established to be legitimate, then Space Family Bei and the Elders' testimony gives huge credence to the aspects of UEF philosophy that ostensibly would avert the apocalypse. The GTVA gets to publicly save the day by "putting the pieces together" and announcing their discovery of the Shivan agenda, saving face for everyone. The UEF gets to not have the crap smashed out of them by the Alliance.

The UEF is not doing this. They are, essentially, keeping the secret of salvation to themselves and damning the GTVA to assured annihilation. They are even, by virtue of their resistance to the GTVA, potentially damning themselves to annihilation.

The analogy in my mind is this: a doctor has discovered, and potentially cured, an incredibly lethal disease that nearly half of everyone had, and then hid the cure and had a bunch of secret police guard it. It's monstrous. Let's compare and contrast the Alliance and the Federation's worst-case end of the war scenarios. GTVA? They win an incredibly bloody war after pacifying the population through massive bombardment and ground assault. Let's say they kill 10% of the entire solar system's population and another 40% die to disease and exposure and other stuff.  25% human species dead. And that's a pretty unlikely outcome; the GTVA would probably almost certainly declare defeat and let the UEF rot in Sol instead of going crazy with the dirty bombs. The UEF? They are killed along with the GTVA when the divine triumvirate rolls through punishin' the wicked all willy-nilly. Slightly better worst case? The shivans spare Sol and murder the entire GTVA. 50% human species dead. And it is heavily implied that this is a likely outcome if the war continues without an amazingly unlikely quick UEF victory and imposition of their values on the GTVA.

Anyone actually adhering to the precepts of truthfulness, harmony, and the Ubuntu way would have to find some pretty amazing way to reconcile keeping this incredible secret and the amount of raw suffering keeping that secret will probably entail. I know realistic conflicts are never resolved as easily as my proposal above, but the prospect of it should appeal to in-universe characters in the know. In particular, I want to know how the Elders sleep at night, knowing every second they spend not warning the Alliance makes it more and more likely that the blood of every single Alliance civilian will be on their hands. No one can blame the Alliance leadership for bringing the shivans down on them - they don't know. The Elders do. Even if its the Alliance's aggressiveness that started the apocalypse... the Elders didn't argue strenuously for no resistance and no shooting war. The Elders didn't warn the Alliance soldiers and civilians what they were about to cause. Utterly reprehensible.

uh also maybe I missed a few key story points or articles that make my interpretation of the Elders and their need for secrecy totally wrong and if that is the case I hope I haven't offended anyone with my blatant and limitless boneheadedness :)

EDIT: Unless maybe the super secret project is a prototype Shivaphone that the Feds will give to the Alliance as proof of the threat they HAVE been warning them about.

Then that would be pretty sweet.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2010, 07:26:03 pm by Avatar »

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: What do you want in the rest of War in Heaven?
Well at this point this seems to have turned from a discussion of the plausibility of the story (which I would feel the need to contribute to help the integrity of the setting) to a discussion about what the actors in the story could have done, or be doing better.

Which I am perfectly happy with. Real life is full of bizarre and sometimes incredible blunders, as well as all sorts of intelligent and powerful organizations doing retrospectively pinheaded things for what seem like trivial reason. Mistakes have certainly been made, on all sides - I don't think anybody, in or out of universe, would argue with that.

The everybody-wins scenario you've put together is maybe even a plausible one in the setting, but it's also one that comes with the benefit of perspective, detachment, and omnipotent accurate knowledge of what each side actually knows and what its motives are. If you're down in the thick of things, even as a a member of the Security Council or an Elder, you're looking at things through a blood-spattered, muddy lense, struggling with pride, resentment and all sorts of other complications.

People ran with the information they had and made the calls they could. It's important to us, in designing the setting, that the Elders be arguably a secretive bunch of manipulative assholes just as much as they're a generous bunch of farsighted visionaries. Or that the GTVA leadership is as paranoid and triggerhappy as they're vigilant and devoted to human survival.

Imperfection is interesting. If the setting feels like it's run by morons that's because we sometimes take a stab at making it work like real life.  :nervous:

As for this specific comment:

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restricting the POV to Laporte really curtails the ability to show interesting and relevant events like that.

We tried so very hard to stick to the limited first person perspective like AoA. We didn't quite manage it, since we had a few third-person vignettes in the middle of the campaign. We tried our best to sneak in as much as we could of the documentation you're asking for (which included at least one glimpse at GTVA media coverage of the war), but sticking to the first person limited was a handicap in that respect.

As for the gameplay issue, the missions are definitely a little tenser and more fast-paced than AoA, and they're a lot more unforgiving in some respects since the GTVA as an opponent is closer to parity. We worried about this a lot during development.

This is a really good discussion, and a thoughtful one. And yeah, as I mentioned, inside the dev team we spent a great deal of time fretting and worrying about basically everyone of our decisions, both in terms of design and narrative. We knew we couldn't please everyone.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: What do you want in the rest of War in Heaven?
On that note, Avatar, we may get in touch with you about beta testing for R2, if you're up for it.

 

Offline -Norbert-

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Re: What do you want in the rest of War in Heaven?
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I'm not sure anyone can wholly discredit the GTVA's offer of improved security in that fashion.
The problem is, there never was any such offer.
The first thing the UEF ever heard from the GTVA wasn't "Hey, would you like us to improve your defense against the shivans?".
It was "We are now in controll because our law sais so. Surrender or die!" follows by the destruction of the Renjian.