Author Topic: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)  (Read 35742 times)

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Offline Meleardil

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  • Meleardil Eressea Iluvadan
Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
You all missed the KEY sentence.
It was something like this: The scientific and technological development always was eons ahead of spiritual development. Lee abandoned technology in the hope that by the time humanity again develops such high technology to create true AI, we will be mature enough to coexist with them instead of enslaving them and fighting them again and again. And THAT is the implication which puts the very end to the real perspective. We see our own technological civilization, at the dawn of developing our new cylons, but the question remains: are we grown up for that? Are we emotionally and spiritually mature enough to tamper with real creation, giving birth to an alien sentient race?
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 08:20:33 am by Meleardil »
"I think it is impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves."
Speaker for the Dead

 

Offline Kosh

  • A year behind what's funny
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Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
But they were co-existing by the end of the show. For example, those centurions didn't go on the raid to get hera on the colony because they had to, they went because they chose to. The renegade cylons (which is pretty much all that's left of the cylon race) were, by the end of the series, responsible for the safety of the civilian fleet. humans and cylons were working together.
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

Brain I/O error
Replace and press any key

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
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Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
But they were co-existing by the end of the show. For example, those centurions didn't go on the raid to get hera on the colony because they had to, they went because they chose to. The renegade cylons (which is pretty much all that's left of the cylon race) were, by the end of the series, responsible for the safety of the civilian fleet. humans and cylons were working together.

There's an obvious reason for why they went primitive, hidden in the show's subtext.

"No city. Not this time." They were afraid of another New Caprica. Odds are that most of the Colonials wouldn't have been willing to live in a settlement under joint Cylon-Human rule. What's more, if they left the fleet in orbit -- or even nearby -- it could have been detected by whatever remains of Cavil's forces, hellbent on revenge.

I just wish they'd made it explicit in dialogue.

 

Offline Echelon9

  • 210
Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
In light of the events of the last episode, I think the choice of "Diaspora" as the mod title has been pretty well re-affirmed.

 

Offline BlackDove

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Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
You all missed the KEY sentence.
It was something like this: The scientific and technological development always was eons ahead of spiritual development. Lee abandoned technology in the hope that by the time humanity again develops such high technology to create true AI, we will be mature enough to coexist with them instead of enslaving them and fighting them again and again. And THAT is the implication which puts the very end to the real perspective. We see our own technological civilization, at the dawn of developing our new cylons, but the question remains: are we grown up for that? Are we emotionally and spiritually mature enough to tamper with real creation, giving birth to an alien sentient race?

THAT'S RIGHT! YOU'RE THE ONLY ONE WHO GOT IT, AND NONE OF US DID!

Was that the answer you were looking for?

 

Offline Meleardil

  • 28
  • Meleardil Eressea Iluvadan
Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
You all missed the KEY sentence.
It was something like this: The scientific and technological development always was eons ahead of spiritual development. Lee abandoned technology in the hope that by the time humanity again develops such high technology to create true AI, we will be mature enough to coexist with them instead of enslaving them and fighting them again and again. And THAT is the implication which puts the very end to the real perspective. We see our own technological civilization, at the dawn of developing our new cylons, but the question remains: are we grown up for that? Are we emotionally and spiritually mature enough to tamper with real creation, giving birth to an alien sentient race?

THAT'S RIGHT! YOU'RE THE ONLY ONE WHO GOT IT, AND NONE OF US DID!

Was that the answer you were looking for?
Frak you too! Was that the answer you were looking for?
"I think it is impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves."
Speaker for the Dead

 

Offline Locutus of Borg

  • 28
  • Who counted those posts?????????????
Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Both of you, there's no need to troll.
We are the Borg
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own

Resistance is FUTILE

 

Offline Meleardil

  • 28
  • Meleardil Eressea Iluvadan
Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
I wont ignore insults...from nobody. And I don't care about any crap stating that I shall be the better person by tolerating trolls. I just wont. Simple as that.
"I think it is impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves."
Speaker for the Dead

 

Offline Locutus of Borg

  • 28
  • Who counted those posts?????????????
Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Sigh
We are the Borg
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own

Resistance is FUTILE

 

Offline Meleardil

  • 28
  • Meleardil Eressea Iluvadan
Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
:) Locutus. Thanks for your peace effort! Extra thanks for cutting the tolerance speech. Actually, that was the real act of tolerance. Oh...and I am not angry, if you were thinking that. I finished the offtopic part with this.
"I think it is impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves."
Speaker for the Dead

 

Offline Polpolion

  • The sizzle, it thinks!
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Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Anyways...

You all missed the KEY sentence.
It was something like this: The scientific and technological development always was eons ahead of spiritual development. Lee abandoned technology in the hope that by the time humanity again develops such high technology to create true AI, we will be mature enough to coexist with them instead of enslaving them and fighting them again and again. And THAT is the implication which puts the very end to the real perspective. We see our own technological civilization, at the dawn of developing our new cylons, but the question remains: are we grown up for that? Are we emotionally and spiritually mature enough to tamper with real creation, giving birth to an alien sentient race?

"Humanity" cannot mature like that because it is not a collective consciousness. Maybe if they had the means to record their experiences and thoughts in some durable, lasting medium, they'd be able to instill upon future generations just how grave the situations were. Unfortunately, they threw their only guarantee that this robot rebellion would never happen again into the sun.

They can't record these things in books, because then it becomes like the Bible. And look what happened to that after 2000 years, not to mention 150,000 years. Even if they kept technology and recorded it in whatever media storage medium was practical, people would stop believing it. What people would believe is the rusted out hulk of a >1 mile long warship hanging in obit that's visible even during the day. That alone would make people believe what's told to them only through oral stories many, many generations more.

The thing is, they can't just forget this and try and start over. If they have a "clean slate", then that means they really haven't learned their lesson yet; it's essentially "well that didn't work, let's try again in about two hundred thousand years."

Honestly though, I can see where the difficulty in maintaining this knowledge could be over such a long period of time, regardless of what people do. Well no I can't, because they really need to remember this forever and ever. The closest analogy I can think of is the issue of slavery, only without as much clarity. I'm no psycho-historian; I don't know if we'll have slaves again in two hundred thousand years.

 
Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Quote from: thesizzler
The thing is, they can't just forget this and try and start over. If they have a "clean slate", then that means they really haven't learned their lesson yet; it's essentially "well that didn't work, let's try again in about two hundred thousand years."

Honestly though, I can see where the difficulty in maintaining this knowledge could be over such a long period of time, regardless of what people do. Well no I can't, because they really need to remember this forever and ever. The closest analogy I can think of is the issue of slavery, only without as much clarity. I'm no psycho-historian; I don't know if we'll have slaves again in two hundred thousand years.

Well said, thesizzler, but I fear you (as well as others) have fallen into a certain trap where you have to suspend the shows ending from the shows message to us as the audience/humanity, which applies to both our spiritual and scientific sides, and that prime message is that for all our endeavour and faith we oft forget to keep an idea of responsibility in mind when we make the great strides in the name of progress.

In shirking the wisdom that may arise from actually stopping and thinking about what we're going to do (let's say execute such and such individual according to pre ordained laws from a religious tome, or activating a nanobot for the first time) it is then we get caught in the endless cycle. 

What I absolutely love most about it, is that it ties so well with Adama's speech aboard the Galactica in the miniseries, almost poetic had there not been a few hiccups in the finale.

All the same, absolutely incredible show, absolutely incredible finale.

P.S. I didn't mean to single you out there, sizzler, as many have shared your sentiment, and this general sentiment from the finale.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 08:52:48 pm by On_Your_Six »

 

Offline TESLA

  • 1.21 gigawatts!
  • 27
Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
This all got *****y very quickly  :rolleyes:

Everyone calm down or your model will be boxed  :D


In other news,
check this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvLFV5o0iPM&feature=related

turns out Hitler was a BSG fan
In order to find his equal, an Irishman is forced
to talk to God.

There are three types of people in this world: those who make things happen, those who watch things happen and those who wonder what happened.

 

Offline The E

  • He's Ebeneezer Goode
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Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Turns out, some people on YouTube had their sense of humor surgically removed. You do not speak German, do you?
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 
Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
It was copacetic several posts ago, TESLA, no worries.

And that video was hilarious.  "It appears, sir, that the season is on hiatus..."  Fantastic.

 

Offline Kosh

  • A year behind what's funny
  • 210
Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
But they were co-existing by the end of the show. For example, those centurions didn't go on the raid to get hera on the colony because they had to, they went because they chose to. The renegade cylons (which is pretty much all that's left of the cylon race) were, by the end of the series, responsible for the safety of the civilian fleet. humans and cylons were working together.

There's an obvious reason for why they went primitive, hidden in the show's subtext.

"No city. Not this time." They were afraid of another New Caprica. Odds are that most of the Colonials wouldn't have been willing to live in a settlement under joint Cylon-Human rule. What's more, if they left the fleet in orbit -- or even nearby -- it could have been detected by whatever remains of Cavil's forces, hellbent on revenge.

I just wish they'd made it explicit in dialogue.

They didn't seem to have problems with scrapping Galactica, the only ship that could have even stood a chance against a basestar, and there by leaving the basestar as the only warship left in the fleet. They also didn't have problems with cylon heavy raiders helping with the CAP. The difference between new caprica and this situation is that on new caprica they were an occupying force with a human puppet government, this time around they were colonial citizens (pretty much) and they even had their own representative in the Qurom. That makes a big difference, since they were not controlling the government but they were a part of the government.

Cavil's forces were beaten and scattered by the destruction of the colony, although they still have a couple of baseships on the loose which is even more reason the keep the baseship around for defense. They were detected on new caprica because of a nuclear detonation, and leaving their ships in orbit this time around would have made no real difference since they can scan the surface (or explore the surface).

Like I said, it seems that this was a reflection of a neo-primitivist under-current in modern american culture.

"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

Brain I/O error
Replace and press any key

 
Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Well, if you hadn't noticed, American civilization could use a retooling....  From the ground up.  ;)

 

Offline swashmebuckle

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    • The Perfect Band
Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
I found the last episode very enjoyable but also kinda disappointing.

Although I thought the wrap-ups for the various character threads were very personally satisfying, for me the show failed to integrate the episode's action and dramatic highs with the series' overarching question, so the result was a pretty flat action climax in the CIC, beautiful sendoffs for the main players (especially Adama & Roslin), and the one awful extra ending where Baltar and Six beat you over the head with the Honda Asimo.  It had a lot of build up, but in place of a real moment of release for the show to pivot on, there was an awkward end to the action and then the episode was left to sort of drag out its component parts for the second hour.

Instead of all the events of the past four years coalescing into a defining 10 minutes or whatever, we got a wham-bam stop to the plot (Hera found, Cavil dead, oh and by the way here's Earth) that gives us no real insight on whether humanity or AI actually deserves to survive and why.  Whatever the two parties' intentions were, the result was that everyone who opposed the colonials and their allies either ended up getting shot or sucked into a black hole or both; humanity survives because it had more guns in the CIC and Racetrack's dead arm fell on the nuke button at exactly the the most convenient moment.  Also, extinction wasn't ever really a threat anyway because humans were actually doing just fine for themselves on a continent with more wildlife than all the colonies combined (which only Starbuck knew how to find).

My other gripe, and I'm probably again in the minority here, was with the religious aspect.  I've had troubling, shark-jumping feelings since the season three finale when Bob Dylan started playing, and those feeling were confirmed by the ending going fully supernatural.  The conflict between humans and AI and the questions of identity and morality that it raises are for me the most interesting part of the show, and making it so that events were being manipulated by magic angels all along just sort of cheapens the whole series for me.  It would have been so much better, IMO, if head Six's influence on Baltar had stuck to the Cylons' interest in producing hybrid children in order to fully supplant humanity, and the religious delusions had been another ruse to divide and pacify the human breeding stock. 

I'm not saying I hated the finale or anything (the mere fact that it raises these issues makes it probably the best TV show I've ever seen), but for me the whole "God's plan" jag being directly validated held it back from reaching the Blade Runner level of sci-fi achievement.  That said, I think "The Plan" could still salvage a lot of what I really liked from the show (especially the first two seasons) in a way that wouldn't interfere with all the wonderful character arcs that ended here.  Best case scenario: the One True God/Lords of Kobol are actually just super-powerful aliens who Boxey can kill with a Viper (like how Spock shoots God in "The Final Frontier").  Now that would be a sweet ending.

Also where was Seelix?  I like Seelix.

 

Offline Blue Lion

  • Star Shatterer
  • 210
Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Where was that tattooed unnamed bald pilot?

I want answers!

 

Offline odo2063

  • 24
Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
This all got *****y very quickly  :rolleyes:

Everyone calm down or your model will be boxed  :D


In other news,
check this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvLFV5o0iPM&feature=related

turns out Hitler was a BSG fan

hey, thats so full of mistakes... here in germen freeTV they have just left new cparica and we can't see the webisodes here!!! btw. this is not even a translation...

but funny yes, in a weird kind of humor.