Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Blue Planet => Topic started by: EAD_Agamemnon on August 04, 2009, 01:18:52 am
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VERY nicely done campaign thus far.
The point where you return to Earth only to find it a wasteland of fire, ash, and dust...almost made me wanna cry. All that work for naught...THEN when it was made known the Shivans were responsible made me hate them even MORE.
Then the relation of the Vishnans to the Shivans...reminds me somewhat of the Vorlon / Shadow relationship, with the Vishnans compassion being a lot like Kosh. Then the Shivan mentality being a kind of very calculating and more sadist kind of Morden. Kind of a bad analogy but thats what came to mind. Makes me wonder, that when the Shivans were told to leave and never return, did that mean even in the universe with the GTVA? And from the sound of it it would one day be the GTVA to join the Vishnans.
POSSIBLE SPOILER WARNING:
Long story short I was indeed hoping for a more open arms ending...but am glad in a way the writers for this mods story made as they did. Shiva's saying we destroy...the GTVA wanted to reunite by force of arms when they could have simply said who they are and how long they have awaited the return home. Good touch in that a good majority of the Expeditionary force you strive to protect so much does the moral thing and sides with Earth. In the end here, I hope Earth wins or something else happens to make the GTVA see the err of its ways.
Not at all sure if I even made any sense here....only just now (a few minutes before this post) finished the campaign.
DEFINITELY a worthy successor story to FS2s.
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While they might seem similar on first glace, the Vishnans and Shivans aren't anything like the Vorlons and Shadows.
The Vorlons want complete discipline and obedience from the younger races always manipulating behind the scenes, where the Vishnans stay out of the young ones buisness unless something extraordinary happens.
The Shadows make the younger races fight against each other, because they beliefe it will eventually make the survivours stronger and better. When the Shivans judge a race to be unworthy they wipe them out completely so the following races get a chance to proof they are worthier... or get wiped out as well.
And I don't think the GTVA is going to join the Vishnans and their council anytime soon, not with them starting the "war in heaven". Maybe UEF is close to that level of enlightenment, but the GTVA (or at least the Human part of it) seems to have a long way to go.
Oh btw: I think the quote in your signature should be form "David Sheridan", after all John Sheridan learned that one form his father :p
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And I don't think the GTVA is going to join the Vishnans and their council anytime soon, not with them starting the "war in heaven". Maybe UEF is close to that level of enlightenment, but the GTVA (or at least the Human part of it) seems to have a long way to go.
Enlightenment is what you make of it. The UEF is based on a monolithic single-religion nonelected power structure. Chew on that thought for awhile, and what it means. The UEF essentially has the same power structure as Iran. Even if it's a relatively benevolent group of rulers, it's still not the democractically elected areligious Terran portion of the GTVA.
Too, the UEF seems to be confused by the concept of warmaking. Their culture just doesn't seem designed to accomodate large-scale violence or the need for it. This is a terrible, fatal flaw in a universe full of Shivans. Humanity needs its warriors to survive, and the UEF does not appear equipped to provide them.
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And I don't think the GTVA is going to join the Vishnans and their council anytime soon, not with them starting the "war in heaven". Maybe UEF is close to that level of enlightenment, but the GTVA (or at least the Human part of it) seems to have a long way to go.
Enlightenment is what you make of it. The UEF is based on a monolithic single-religion nonelected power structure. Chew on that thought for awhile, and what it means. The UEF essentially has the same power structure as Iran. Even if it's a relatively benevolent group of rulers, it's still not the democractically elected areligious Terran portion of the GTVA.
Too, the UEF seems to be confused by the concept of warmaking. Their culture just doesn't seem designed to accomodate large-scale violence or the need for it. This is a terrible, fatal flaw in a universe full of Shivans. Humanity needs its warriors to survive, and the UEF does not appear equipped to provide them.
Damn Tevs.
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And I don't think the GTVA is going to join the Vishnans and their council anytime soon, not with them starting the "war in heaven". Maybe UEF is close to that level of enlightenment, but the GTVA (or at least the Human part of it) seems to have a long way to go.
Enlightenment is what you make of it. The UEF is based on a monolithic single-religion nonelected power structure. Chew on that thought for awhile, and what it means. The UEF essentially has the same power structure as Iran. Even if it's a relatively benevolent group of rulers, it's still not the democractically elected areligious Terran portion of the GTVA.
Just playing devil's advocate to preserve the moral ambiguity of the story - the Elders largely stay out of political affairs, allowing the Jovians, Earthers, and Martians to do as they please, and simply act as a kind of 'steering committee' providing long-range spiritual and cultural guidance for the direction of mankind as a whole. It's as if the UN today were a gentle bunch of Buddhists who act to solve big problems like global warming and famine, but instead of passing resolutions, they just nicely ask people to do things.
Of course there are much creepier takes on the Elders, but that's what a UEF citizen would probably tell you. And it's completely correct to point out that nobody elected them.
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So the Eldar council wasn't elected... Does that change that they are closer to the qualities that the Vishnans like than the GTVA?
Whatever their reasons, the GTVA started a war without even trying to negociate first.
Enlightenment is a state of mind, not a political system after all.
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I believe the reason for the war was at least alluded to in the "Prose" section of the BP website. Otherwise it was on a different thread which was fairly recent. Comes down to the politics of control...
-Thaeris
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I understand the Vishnan/Shivan relation is only like the Vorlon/Shadow one on the surface. Vishnans in BP didnt go around trying to force everyone into obedience and the Shivans don't play favorites either.
As for the UEF, so far my only understanding of them is that they are the controlling body in Sol. I'm sure I'll know more as I read up on the Blue Planet storyline. Just finished reading The Rift since that was the first one that a link showed me. Somewhere I hope to find at least some insight to describe in at least SOME detail why the GTVA would make war on Sol in the first place other than 'forcibly' making them part of the GTVA.
Good story so far.
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Your in luck. General Battuta wrote a total of four proses (or at least released four proses) so far. One of them deals with the reasons for the GTVA invasion and makes the whole situation very plausible, even though they the GTVA still acts immorally. But as they say "Desperate times breed desperate people".
You should try to hover the mouse over the "hosted..." button at the top of the screen. That way you can reach the Homepages of the mods hosted at HLP, among them Blue Planet.
Or just click this link http://blueplanet.hard-light.net/ ;)
And heres a direct link into the prose section of the BP website: http://blueplanet.hard-light.net/prose.html
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Yeah, you should read the prose on the BP site. Hats off to General Battuta!
:yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:
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Enlightenment is what you make of it. The UEF is based on a monolithic single-religion nonelected power structure. Chew on that thought for awhile, and what it means. The UEF essentially has the same power structure as Iran. Even if it's a relatively benevolent group of rulers, it's still not the democractically elected areligious Terran portion of the GTVA.
Too, the UEF seems to be confused by the concept of warmaking. Their culture just doesn't seem designed to accomodate large-scale violence or the need for it. This is a terrible, fatal flaw in a universe full of Shivans. Humanity needs its warriors to survive, and the UEF does not appear equipped to provide them.
And that's a reason the UEF is less "enlightened" HOW?
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Well, if the Shivans decide to show up in Sol, they certainly will be enlightened by Shivan beams. A capacity for violence can be a good thing sometimes.
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Well, if the Shivans decide to show up in Sol, they certainly will be enlightened by Shivan beams.
LOL
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But they do have a military, and considering they are able to hold off the superiour forces of the GTVA for years a quite capable one at that.
They are just reluctant to use it if there is any alternative.
If the Shivans come back, I think that would qualify as "no alternative"....
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From my understanding of the UEF their military isn't as good as it could be. They use mainly frigates, have no beams, and are relatively small and under-funded, not to mention most UEF pilots are reservists. They are really lucky to have held on for as long as they have, considering the GTVA's advantages in both capital ships, weaponry, and veteran, career pilots.
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Well, UEF fighters and gunships rock hard. They're built for short-range, high-intensity operations in a single system, so while they're not as cheap or maintainable as GTVA ships, they can really do some damage.
Plus their supply lines are much shorter and their infrastructure a bit more centralized and built up.
It's a decent strategic balance. (Tactically, their torpedoes are pretty formidable too.)
All that said, the war at the beginning of War in Heaven has only lasted eighteen months - it's an incredibly high-intensity conflict compared to something like WWII, though the number of people involved is much smaller. Billions of lives and entire planets are riding on the shoulders of relatively few pilots and crew on both side, and as the for the physical intensity, a bomber pilot might expect to expend more raw destructive force in one sortie than all of World War II put together (maybe; I haven't done the ballpark figures. But it sure sounds cool.)
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Personally, i've never been a fan of the whole dualism thing that seems to be in our culture. Something about dualism just gets me. Good vs evil, that whole jazz. Never been a big advocate.
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Who the hell needs beams to win a war? We beat the Shivans without beams once, you know. :D
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... Eldar council ...
I was wondering when someone would slip up. :p
Anyway. NGTMR was right when he said the the UEF wouldn't survive in a universe full of Shivans. They aren't really prepared for war. Though I'll give you that the UEF is pretty well equipped if you think about how they're drawing solely on the resources of Earth (which probably be severly depleted by now) and any surrounding asteroids or wrecks from the Great War.
Who the hell needs beams to win a war? We beat the Shivans without beams once, you know. :D
At the cost of losing Sol, just to start the bill.
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I severely doubt that the resources of the Sol system are anywhere near depleted. The gas giants, asteroid belt, and various rocky planetoids provide truly gargantuan quantities of raw material, and unlike the rest of the GTVA, Sol has a uniformly well-developed infrastructure with a lot of depth.
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That just leaves the problem that culturally they're totally unprepared and probably unwilling to fight a war. :P
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That is arguably a problem.
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In the great words of cadet proctors everywhere, "The beatings will continue until morale improves!"
:D
-Thaeris
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You could do it the commisarial way.
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... Eldar council ...
I was wondering when someone would slip up. :p
What can I say. I'm a real fan of WH40K Eldar ;)
Anyway. NGTMR was right when he said the the UEF wouldn't survive in a universe full of Shivans. They aren't really prepared for war.
I'm not so sure about that. In both FreeSpace official campaigns the Shivans capital ships were far superiour to the GTA, PVN and GTVA ships. And even in BluePlanet your capships only survive most battles because Sam disarmed the Shivan beams.
So it would make a lot of sense to use gunships and powerfull bombers instead of wasting massive amounts of resources and lives compressed into a single big target for the Shivans to blow up.
I think the Colossus showed very well that "bigger Bigger BIGGER" is the wrong tactic against the Shivans.
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Speaking of W40k, the "bigger is betta" way of thinking certainly works for the Orks . . . as least with large enough numbers that is. :p
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Perhaps, but Orks don't have to fight Shivans.
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So it would make a lot of sense to use gunships and powerfull bombers instead of wasting massive amounts of resources and lives compressed into a single big target for the Shivans to blow up.
It's not really a question of tactics, although having seen what happened to the Renjian I'm not as sure as you that the UEF could fight the Shivans successfully. UEF society is based on an ideal of peace and harmony, of cooperation rather than competition. Even unaware of the state of the universe after the nodes collapsed, they did not maintain their readiness against what for all they knew would be a universe's worth of Shivans. (Recall the FS1 ending. "I'm told we can expect them again, but not in my lifetime.") The UEF is not equipped for large-scale war mentally or culturally. It's not in their makeup. Faced with a choice to destroy or be destroyed, they will not even see that the option to destroy exists.
The UEF isn't simply "not war-minded". They can't get war-minded. With the universe beyond one of endless hate and hostility, Humanity needs its warriors, those who will condone the use of violence to solve problems, who will make the choice for war to the knife and the knife to the hilt. This is something the UEF cannot do and cannot produce.
And that's a reason the UEF is less "enlightened" HOW?
Enlightenment is what you make of it. The only precept standing in the way here is that violence is wrong. Facing something called "The Great Destroyer" and defeating it, however, is a worthy act by any standard. There can be no peace with the Shivans that we know. Violence is a part and parcel of all living things. Enlightment, here, in this universe, demands the knowledge that the time has come when the violence of the human condition will at last serve a purpose, that nothing less awful will serve. The GTVA is built on the concept of taking a stand against the endless silent, dark hatred that is Shivan xenocide. That is enlightenment of its own sort.
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The GTVA is built on the concept of taking a stand against the endless silent, dark hatred that is Shivan xenocide. That is enlightenment of its own sort.
I call that self preservasion.
The GTA and the PVN didn't get together for any enlightened reasons, but simply because they had no other choice, if they wanted to survive. And the result of this forced joining was the NTF rebellion and the growing animosity between the two races.
Don't get me wrong, the GTVA does have some noble ideals behind it, but the fact that they stand against those that want to destroy them isn't a noble ideal, but the most basic urge of every living being down to microscopic lifeforms - survival.
And while the GTVA does have principles, they seem to value practicalities more, hence the war with the UEF. Wether this is good or evil is really a matter of personal opinion. I think there should be a balance. Following your principles no matter the cost can be just as bad as doing only the most practical thing.
Maybe the UEF citicens are naive when it comes to the neccesity of force, but they are still far closer to enlightenment than the GTVA in my opinion.
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That just leaves the problem that culturally they're totally unprepared and probably unwilling to fight a war. :P
Faced with a choice to destroy or be destroyed, they will not even see that the option to destroy exists.
So, uh, if they aren't aware fighting is an option then would you mind telling me what WiH is about? :lol:
Even without the desire for war, the will to live will be enough when in combination with their heavier emphasis on smaller ships when pitted against Shivans. Even if they had to hold off at Sol, they could just dig in and set up a massive blockade at the node. You gotta remember, Earth was the heart of GTA industry until it was cut off by Lucy's explosion. They could last quite a long while on their own, with their well-established infrastructure and industrial base. And if things got really desperate, they could always blow up the Sol gate. Of course, that's if it hadn't already stabilized the node, as the Knossos device in Gamma Draconis had. But that had 8,000 years to do so.
All of that aside, the fact that by the time WiH begins the GTVA-UEF war is 18 months old proves that they've had the will and ability to hold out against the GTVA. So there's really no base for saying that they're unwilling or unable to use force. If that were the case they would have surrendered or, at the very least passively resisted a la Ghandi. The existence of the UEF's navy is also a contradiction to that in and of itself. Normally docile animals become ferocious when cornered, and space-hippies are evidently no different. :P
There's also another element that you all seem to be forgetting - morale. Look at it from the GTVA's point of view. We're fighting humans again, and for the first time the GTVA is doing so without provocation. Hell, half the fleet from AoA defected on the spot. Any pilot with a sense of morality would be horribly demoralized by what he was doing.
And as for the UEF, they're fighting to defend their home - and succeeding against impossible odds. I'd think that defending one's homeworld would give one a great deal of ferocity in doing so. And holding out against a technologically and numerically superior enemy has to be great for morale once in a while.
Also, I second -Norbert-'s statements. :P
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So, uh, if they aren't aware fighting is an option then would you mind telling me what WiH is about? :lol:
Oh, they'll fight. But it'll be like Hannibal in the Punic wars. No matter how many times they are victorious on the battlefield they will never make the final push. They don't have the mindset or the capablity to truly go for the kill; it's not in their makeup. The UEF might be good defenders, but wars are not won by defensive action.
Even without the desire for war, the will to live will be enough when in combination with their heavier emphasis on smaller ships when pitted against Shivans.
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or take up arms against a sea of troubles, and by opposing end them. Defensive warfare against the Shivans is a lost cause.
And if things got really desperate, they could always blow up the Sol gate. Of course, that's if it hadn't already stabilized the node, as the Knossos device in Gamma Draconis had. But that had 8,000 years to do so.
Somebody is forgetting their basic FS history. The Knossos stablized the node in the short period after its actual activation. Weeks or perhaps a month at most.
All of that aside, the fact that by the time WiH begins the GTVA-UEF war is 18 months old proves that they've had the will and ability to hold out against the GTVA. So there's really no base for saying that they're unwilling or unable to use force. If that were the case they would have surrendered or, at the very least passively resisted a la Ghandi. The existence of the UEF's navy is also a contradiction to that in and of itself. Normally docile animals become ferocious when cornered, and space-hippies are evidently no different. :P
On the contrary. No modern state survives without some kind of armed force. The time period is not terribly relevant; we have no idea how the war has played out, what kind of forces the GTVA has actually commited to it, or how quickly the war is being prosecuted (though prose evidence suggests the GTVA is not making a rush of things), so drawing conclusions based on time is an irrevelance. Similarly, I never said that they will not fight; simply that they will never be good at it and never be able to make the kind of "total war" effort needed to prosecute a major armed conflict.
There's also another element that you all seem to be forgetting - morale. Look at it from the GTVA's point of view. We're fighting humans again, and for the first time the GTVA is doing so without provocation. Hell, half the fleet from AoA defected on the spot. Any pilot with a sense of morality would be horribly demoralized by what he was doing. And as for the UEF, they're fighting to defend their home - and succeeding against impossible odds. I'd think that defending one's homeworld would give one a great deal of ferocity in doing so. And holding out against a technologically and numerically superior enemy has to be great for morale once in a while.
Objection, assumes facts not in evidence. Again we have no idea what kind of forces the GTVA has commited to the theater or at what pace the war is being played out. From what we actually know, it seems reasonable to assume the GTVA is, in fact, winning. They're simply conducting a slow, grinding campaign, seeking to inflict maximum casualities for minimal losses to break enemy morale. For all we know the UEF's morale is shot, the GTVA is running high, and the GTVA is winning the war with a single destroyer and three and a half corvettes.
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Somebody is forgetting their basic FS history. The Knossos stablized the node in the short period after its actual activation. Weeks or perhaps a month at most.
Where does anything say that, anywhere?
I never said that they will not fight...
Faced with a choice to destroy or be destroyed, they will not even see that the option to destroy exists.
Right.
Objection, assumes facts not in evidence. Again we have no idea what kind of forces the GTVA has commited to the theater or at what pace the war is being played out. From what we actually know, it seems reasonable to assume the GTVA is, in fact, winning. They're simply conducting a slow, grinding campaign, seeking to inflict maximum casualities for minimal losses to break enemy morale. For all we know the UEF's morale is shot, the GTVA is running high, and the GTVA is winning the war with a single destroyer and three and a half corvettes.
You make valid points there. I still think that there would be a lot of pilots questioning their orders after looking at the big picture, however; I doubt the 14th Battlegroup was alone. Didn't one of the Prose entries on the BP site mention that there were more defections?
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Somebody is forgetting their basic FS history. The Knossos stablized the node in the short period after its actual activation. Weeks or perhaps a month at most.
Where does anything say that, anywhere?
The Trinity presumably activated the Knossos portal only a short time before the events of FS2 (or even within the timespan of the first few missions), yet after it was destroyed, the node was completely passable to GTVA and Shivan ships. It had already managed to stabilize, at least for the time being.
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You make valid points there. I still think that there would be a lot of pilots questioning their orders after looking at the big picture, however; I doubt the 14th Battlegroup was alone. Didn't one of the Prose entries on the BP site mention that there were more defections?
Also remember that the Expeditionary Force was probably hand-picked with Officers that were deemed capable of executing the order to subdue Earth before they were sent out. That they went on a detour which changed their minds about this whole killing humans thing was unplanned, of course.
Still, these were people who were supposed to be able and willing to execute even questionable orders from Command, and they were sent out with the best equipment available.
If you then consider the fact that apparently only Admiral Bei and that other Admiral were briefed on the standing Orders concerning the UEF, well.....It's not in the least surprising that people will defect.
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I was under the impression that it had always made the node stable. But then I'm not sure what activating it would mean. I guess I always thought of it as a door into the node which it was stabilizing. If that makes sense. I do recall the bit about the Trinity activating it - I replayed retail FS2 over the last week and a half - but not anything that specifies whether the Trinity's activating it was the point at which the node was stabilized.
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Right.
You're again confusing choices on a personal and a societal level. :P One on one, in small groups, they'll fight, but as a society, they don't want to and will never display any killer instinct.
You make valid points there. I still think that there would be a lot of pilots questioning their orders after looking at the big picture, however; I doubt the 14th Battlegroup was alone. Didn't one of the Prose entries on the BP site mention that there were more defections?
A few, but not many. The GTA/Terran GTVA were and have been democractic governments; and apparently there are some kind of legal irregularities inherent in how Ubuntu replaced the GTA that the GTVA has been building on. In a lot of ways I think the war could be cast as the first rationalist crusade against the infidel theists.
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I was under the impression that it had always made the node stable. But then I'm not sure what activating it would mean. I guess I always thought of it as a door into the node which it was stabilizing. If that makes sense. I do recall the bit about the Trinity activating it - I replayed retail FS2 over the last week and a half - but not anything that specifies whether the Trinity's activating it was the point at which the node was stabilized.
The Trinity's activation of the Knossos made the node passable again in the first place, but the action of that Knossos over the weeks/months it was active during the FS2 campaign brought a more permanent stability to the node. As a result, even after Command made the call to destroy the Knossos, it remained stable to the point where ships were able to continually pass through it.
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I imagine the debates happening in this thread are not unlike those probably being conducted in GTVA and UEF society even now - and perhaps even in the campaign itself.
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A few, but not many. The GTA/Terran GTVA were and have been democractic governments; and apparently there are some kind of legal irregularities inherent in how Ubuntu replaced the GTA that the GTVA has been building on. In a lot of ways I think the war could be cast as the first rationalist crusade against the infidel theists.
Quite possible.
I imagine the debates happening in this thread are not unlike those probably being conducted in GTVA and UEF society even now - and perhaps even in the campaign itself.
Also quite possible. :lol:
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I imagine the debates happening in this thread are not unlike those probably being conducted in GTVA and UEF society even now
Wait, wait, wait. You're telling me FS2, or at least BP, takes place 'right about now, in a galaxy far far away?'
So. Lame. :p
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I think he meant "at the time the campaign happens" with "even now".
Don't forget that he's FREDing this campaign. :)
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Defensive warfare against the Shivans is a lost cause.
But against the Shivans it seems to be the only option.
No one knows were they come from and the only static shivan objects the GTVA ever saw were the comm-nodes in that one soc mission (Actually I'm not even sure they really count as static stations. When I put a Dis close to a comm-node in fred it looks as if the Dis is capable to carrying it around, if the rotations arms are stopped).
How can you go in the offensive if you don't know were to attack?
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The thing about being surrounded by the Shivans is that you can attack in any direction.
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How can you go in the offensive if you don't know were to attack?
That's the beauty of it. The Shivans are optimized for offensive combat and they have no targets they need defend. It makes them incredibly dangerous. Still, once can assume the tactical offensive and attack their ships rather than waiting for them to attack yours. While killing them all is the most inefficent method of winning a war, it will still work.
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Wait, wait, wait. You're telling me FS2, or at least BP, takes place 'right about now, in a galaxy far far away?'
So. Lame. :p
Heh heh heh...
NO.
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I think he meant "at the time the campaign happens" with "even now".
I think so too. But deliberate misinterpretations are fun.
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Since this topic best described my feelings on completing the campaign, I'm replying here.
I'm not going to go into any detail on the campaign here, since I think everyone knows what happened (or doesn't want to know since they haven't completed the campaign yet).
I absolutely loved AoA, especially the ending. The whole campaign seemed very polished to me... the only thing that was lacking was voice acting, which would have made it "uber-awesome" :-) Really, really looking forward to War In Heaven...
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Voice acting almost done!
Glad you liked it! Praise fuels WiH development.
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Wow, super-fast response ;-)
Well, if you need another voice actor (optionally featuring cheesy german accent), just let me know. In any case, keep up the good work - REALLY looking forward to the next installment of blue planet ;-)
By the way, this is a standing offer: Should you need an additional voice actor, I'd love to help.
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;-)
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Wow, super-fast response ;-)
Well, if you need another voice actor (optionally featuring cheesy german accent), just let me know. In any case, keep up the good work - REALLY looking forward to the next installment of blue planet ;-)
By the way, this is a standing offer: Should you need an additional voice actor, I'd love to help.
Just mosey on over to the voice acting forum and check the thread there. Audition and send it in and odds are if you've got a decent mic and some talent you'll have at least a shot at a role.
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Thanks. I'll do that.
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Shortcut ;)
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=63738.0
Just remember to send your VA files to both General Battuta and Rian, to make it easier for them.
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I severely doubt that the resources of the Sol system are anywhere near depleted. The gas giants, asteroid belt, and various rocky planetoids provide truly gargantuan quantities of raw material, and unlike the rest of the GTVA, Sol has a uniformly well-developed infrastructure with a lot of depth.
I tend to agree. It makes sense that humanity was all about expanding and claiming the most that they could as fast as they could. IIRC Vasudans mention negatively that Terrans did just that and it's also mentioned that Vasudans squeezed everything they could in the few systems they had.