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Our initial design plan includes more streamlined in-mission dialogue, an expanded weapons sandbox, and more gameplay-centric, player-agentic missions. We're also in touch with modelers working to optimize our assets.
Several of the ships present in the UEF fleet in R1 that didn't get any (or enough) screen time will probably see use.
The storyline is already written through the end of BP2 and beyond, so I'm afraid that won't be changing.
If you have weapon or gameplay concepts, however, toss them out here.
No requests to change the name of the campaign to the Admiral Chiwetel 'Batman' Steele Bubble Gum Deficiency Festival will be accepted.
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What do you mean by "Release 2", a re-release of the Chrysalis+Apotheosis, or the conclusion of War in Heaven?
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The conclusion of War in Heaven.
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I'm a huge Tev, so a mini-campaign from their perspective would be great. But failing that, I'd settle for a mini-campaign following a Capital captain in the UEF throughout the war, starting out commanding a Sanctus and working up the ships through dead man's shoes. Taking inspiration from such things as the Harrington series or In Death Ground/The Shiva Option. I would gladly help write such a campaign, and possibly be able to assist with FREDing (once I had the intricacies of capship command FREDing explained to me)
I have more things, but I'm busy redecorating at the moment, will post them up later.
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There was a federation ship that was used in a couple of test video's on you tube(which i can't seem to find), was also on the website. I think it may have been an older version of the solaris, looked like a carrier made by steve-o, Could that be released, i liked the design of that ship? How about giving the earth forces maybe some kind of prototype beams? I assumed that they would examine that technology from the defecting gtva ships? A few missions from the GTVA view would be cool. Really though bp is pretty much perfect for me, really just want to see that earlier version of the solaris or is the model got problems?
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No requests to change the name of the campaign to the Admiral Chiwetel 'Batman' Steele Bubble Gum Deficiency Festival will be accepted.
Aaaaawww :(
Our initial design plan includes more streamlined in-mission dialogue, an expanded weapons sandbox, and more gameplay-centric, player-agentic missions.
I've got nothing. Sounds like you guys are on the right track to make WiH2 completely glorious
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No change requests from me either.
Do whatever you feel like, don't be afraid to try out things but test them well. It seemed to work great for R1!
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REWARD & PUNISHMENT STRUCTURE
A set of events within missions which will influence the follow-up missions. This can involve protecting non-critical vessels, capturing cargo containers which are removed from the combat zone within a set time, not killing a hostage who greatfully gives important info, etc.
EXAMPLES OF EVENTS & REWARDS:
The player is ordered to protect the frigates Gandhi and Tibet in a mission, which are intensely attacked by Tev bombers. The ships are required to achieve a victory in an upcomming battle. Suddenly the cruiser Aristotle flies into the area, 8000 meters away and is under attack by Tev fighters. The player, who flies a heavy fighter, cannot reach the ship in time but can order Gamma wing, a wing of interceptors, to aid the cruiser.
If the cruiser survives, it will aid in a later mission by jumping in close to a fighter screen, causing havok on the surprised pilots before jumping out when taking damage, giving the player a good opportunity to take out the first confused fighter wave.
If the cruiser dies, the player will face the mission the normal way and the Tev fighters attack as planned, doing damage to the friendly ships with their large numbers and their many missiles.
The player is ordered to raid a cargo train, to try and steal missile warheads. They are required to arm heavy bombs against a fleet of capital vessels in an upcoming mission.
The warheads are stolen, the player gets their heavy bombs as intended in the mission.
The warheads were destroyed or the convoy got away, the player has to make do with a lighter type of bomb, which takes more effort to destroy the enemy ships with: some corvettes and cruisers may get away resulting in being scolded by the debriefing.
While attacking several cargo trains, disabling a certain non-suspicious Faustus science vessel will result in getting the option to capture it. Onboard are prototype weapons based on experimental technology.
The player team captures the Faustus, several missions later the high-power energy weapon has been examined. The maul can be upgraded, performing 20% better.
The player destroyed the Faustus or it got away, the player doesn't get the weapons upgrade later on.
The player has to defend the frigate Gandhi again which is a primary objective. It is engaging a destroyer to buy time for a convoy of ships.
The Gandhi survives because the player disabled the destroyers beam weapons, in the next mission it will jump in and attack an enemy corvette which gives the player an opening to guide their bomber wing through.
The Gandhi is destroyed, the player's mission is failed but does not have to be replayed. In the next misison, the bomber wing has to take care of the corvette before being able to fly further.
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What do I want? More please!
TTS functionality on all dialog would be a big help. Better descriptions on the weapon functionality too. I also wouldn't mind a few more missions where you actually feel like player participation is really making a difference - several of the R1 missions, enthralling and fantastic as they were, felt as if it wouldn't have mattered a damn if I just parked my fighter in the geometry of the nearest capship and read dialog for 15 minutes. The story was great, so I didn't mind, but I miss the frenetic pace of desperately trying to save a capship from wave after wave of bombers and fighters.
Another mission type I felt was somewhat lacking was the ability for the player to make runs against capships - sometimes flying a bomber full of ordinance is just satisfying, or even making precision strikes against capship weapons and subsystems. The other wings generally did that in BP2 missions regardless of whether I got there or not. Frankly, I spent the entire game seemingly doing nothing but space-superiority with a little intercept mixed in.
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What do I want? More please!
TTS functionality on all dialog would be a big help. Better descriptions on the weapon functionality too. I also wouldn't mind a few more missions where you actually feel like player participation is really making a difference - several of the R1 missions, enthralling and fantastic as they were, felt as if it wouldn't have mattered a damn if I just parked my fighter in the geometry of the nearest capship and read dialog for 15 minutes.
We did actually test missions by doing just this. Cost of War (m01) is not self-playing; m02 is; m03 usually is (intentionally though); m04 has no gameplay; m05 is obviously not; m06 is usually not (I tried to make it a bit harder but testers hated me); m07 is not; m08 is if you just run away; m09 probably is; m10 is not; m11 is; m12 is a story mission, same with m13; m14 is not; m15 is not.
Pretty good all in all.
Another mission type I felt was somewhat lacking was the ability for the player to make runs against capships - sometimes flying a bomber full of ordinance is just satisfying, or even making precision strikes against capship weapons and subsystems. The other wings generally did that in BP2 missions regardless of whether I got there or not. Frankly, I spent the entire game seemingly doing nothing but space-superiority with a little intercept mixed in.
We were dissatisfied with FS2 bomber gameplay so we wanted to save it for R2 when we could really give it focus. Believe me, the UEF's Durgas and Vajradhras have been built up as awesome for a reason.
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Sara made a good point about the reward and punishment structure. This is something that :v: employed in many FS1 missions. It may be worth the extra time and effort to see it implemented in WiH Part 2.
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Forced Ejection
(the mission)
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We want Cutscenes :)
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We want Cutscenes :)
I wonder what you could possibly want from a WiH cutscene that can't be done in-engine... :D ;7
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we want MORE DAKKA
I doubt there's anything I could ask for that would be better than what you guys have planned already. And nobody even think about asking for an early release... all the time spent on BP2 simply makes it the polished awesomeness it is (not to mention that BP is one of the fastest-releasing campaigns out there)!
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Reward / Punishment on missions sound good. :D
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I agree with the reward/punishment, but the reward should be obvious enough that you don't go disabling every science cruiser you find only to not recieve an upgrade.
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I want this campaign to make me feel that lump in my throat again, like at the very end of AoA... but I guess that's just story-wise... so, nothing so far.
Maybe work on that electro music again?
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You need to be more careful about overtly presenting the UEF's viewpoint with the campaign and overtly outlining its differences from how the GTVA operates, because nothing hurts a story worse than it looking like it's biased. Now I've said before that a fighterpilot shipboard during active combat is the wrong place to try and be studying the horror of war unless you're careful, and I don't think you were careful enough. WiH has a bad habit of still being able to hear the author talking when the work is trying to speak. Can I point to anything in particular? No, not really.
I'm sure you can find it yourself since you know the story better than I. Subtlety is rarely the result of concious thought in storytelling.
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You need to be more careful about overtly presenting the UEF's viewpoint with the campaign and overtly outlining its differences from how the GTVA operates, because nothing hurts a story worse than it looking like it's biased. Now I've said before that a fighterpilot shipboard during active combat is the wrong place to try and be studying the horror of war unless you're careful, and I don't think you were careful enough.
Ubuntu citizens are trained from birth to examine things cognitively. We tried very hard to get this across with Laporte, who is emblematic of a society that is dangerously close to thinking itself out of existence.
WiH has a bad habit of still being able to hear the author talking when the work is trying to speak.
Hard to do when the story doesn't reflect the viewpoints of the authors.
I'm sure you can find it yourself since you know the story better than I. Subtlety is rarely the result of concious thought in storytelling.
Given the success we've had in keeping the campaign fairly neutral I think we're doing all right. Be careful about confusing a character's statements with the narrative's statements; look deeper and you'll see there's a definite clash.
If you haven't finished the campaign yet I don't think you can grasp the full message here.
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To clarify: if your reaction is "this/these character/characters think too much about the horror of war to be effective soldiers functioning in a genuine conflict", then that's exactly the point.
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We tried very hard to get this across with Laporte, who is emblematic of a society that is dangerously close to thinking itself out of existence.
That trying is part of the problem, because in trying so hard you've made it obvious that you're trying.
Hard to do when the story doesn't reflect the viewpoints of the authors.
It doesn't have to reflect the author's viewpoint. This isn't, in tropespeak, Author Tracting. It's the author failing to successfully conceal their presence in the story. The fact that you don't agree is not a point in your favor when attempting to conceal your presence because it often leads to the author showing up because they disapprove and they want us to disapprove.
The pyschopathic tendacies thing, for example. By presenting classic symptoms bluntly, you get the effect I mentioned. The author does not approve and is showing they do not approve.
Be careful about confusing a character's statements with the narrative's statements; look deeper and you'll see there's a definite clash.
That you think you can successfully untangle those completely in a story being told effectively first-person is a trap in itself.
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The pyschopathic tendacies thing, for example. By presenting classic symptoms bluntly, you get the effect I mentioned. The author does not approve and is showing they do not approve.
As I've said, the narrative does not reflect the beliefs of the authors. That includes both approval and disapproval. Laporte's symptoms are what they are, and if a direct presentation seems blunt to you, that's because directness is often blunt. The fact that Laporte is unstable, or is good at killing, is not meant to suggest that she's a good or bad person; it simply is (though she certainly struggles with it at first). The campaign very much explores the utility of this trait, in fact.
There's an interpretation that one player came up with re: the whole issue of her psychopathy which is very metatextual and paints the fourth wall beautifully, and which I'm very fond of. I'll see if it comes to you too.
I'm not really sure what point you're actually making here. This critique needs to get a bit more specific or you risk sounding like you're throwing off false positives.
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NGTM-1R, I know you haven't even played WiH yet because of your self-inflicted burn-out. So I view your commentary as a bit unfair speculation on what might be and what might not be. You played the first beta certainly, but things changed a lot since then. If you want to continue giving such commentary, please actually play the finished campaign of Part 1 first.
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NGTM-1R, I know you haven't even played WiH yet because of your self-inflicted burn-out. So I view your commentary as a bit unfair speculation on what might be and what might not be. You played the first beta certainly, but things changed a lot since then. If you want to continue giving such commentary, please actually play the finished campaign of Part 1 first.
Well I don't think he's actually really criticized yet; it's mostly just trying to get a good foodfight going. ;)
That you think you can successfully untangle those completely in a story being told effectively first-person is a trap in itself.
I didn't say anything about untangling them; in fact I said the precise opposite. Read back.
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I already told that i want cutscenes (in game-cutscenes), now i few more points :)
I'm also a big Tev Fan, so it would be really interesting seeing and maybe playing the Tev side.
I also think it is really important that the player doesn't lose the big picture of the war, so even the player is participating in some "SOC" Missions, we should also get the big stratetigcal battles (Like in Battle @Saturn) and of course i'm hoping for a giant battle for Earth itself, and in this battle it would be ok if the player has a minor role.
The character stuff and the huge dialog is great, please don't change it, even if some people have problems reading all the text during battle . Only with the dialog we get the feeling and the horror of the characters and the war.
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Having the models optimized is really all I can think of. I rarely say this, and largely operate off the motto 'If you want something done right, do it yourself', but I trust the BP team to not screw it up.
Now additional ideas, that I can do. If you can find somebody to do rendered cutscenes, that would be amazing.
I would very much like to see a mission in which the UEF do a subspace missile strike of their own, just because it would be damn fun to do so.
A minicampaign on the Tevs or better yet Zod's side of things would be alright, but perhaps it would be a story better told in cutscenes?
That's all I can really think of for now. If more pops into my head I'll post here then.
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If you can find somebody to do rendered cutscenes, that would be amazing.
Personally this is something I would prefer not to see, ever. Part of the Blue Planet magic is that all cutscenes are done in-game and not pre-rendered. Expect to see even more awesome in-game cutscenes in Part 2 however. Axem who joined BP only a short while ago has begun working on Part 2 intro cutscene.
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If you can find somebody to do rendered cutscenes, that would be amazing.
Personally this is something I would prefer not to see, ever. Part of the Blue Planet magic is that all cutscenes are done in-game and not pre-rendered. Expect to see even more awesome in-game cutscenes in Part 2 however. Axem who joined BP only a short while ago has begun working on Part 2 intro cutscene.
I agree with this sentiment.
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I didn't like the crosshair so much. It was too small for me. I like the more spread out crosses, gives me a wider reference. The little dot drove me nuts when I'd get caught up in trying to get it perfectly on center. I do REALLY like the idea of the custom crosshair though, and if possible you should definitely further expand into custom HUDs. It adds a lot to immersion, making you feel like you're flying different fighters. High-quality cockpits would be amazing, as long as they don't take up TOO much screen real-estate. Most of us don't have TrackIR. Putting working gauges on the cockpit would just be truly epic, but I sense that is at best a few years away, and not your department at all. The cockpits themselves aren't really either.
To be completely honest, WiH was a bit too much story and not enough combat for my personal taste. Don't get me wrong, the story is amazing and the delivery is also, but like a few others have said, if felt like a bunch of sit in the fire envelope and wait on the frigates to shred the hostiles with the wtfpwnage anti-fighter screen. (I don't ever want to fly as a tev and attack a frigate) I felt completely ineffective and insignificant throughout the majority of the campaign, contradictory to the dialogue hailing me as a BAMF. Having said that, let me now contradict myself by saying the space combat in WiH is almost exactly like what I always invisioned it should be. Maybe I'm just still used to FS's traditional "superjuggernaught in a fighter" Alpha-1 pwnage gameplay. I guess I can't have both. But if you could step up the player's role somehow, that would help.
"Arming" the primaries I did not like at all. It looks cool and all, but I seriously never would have seen that was happening if Battuta hadn't told me why my raiper wasn't firing right away. I don't really get the premise either, why would the primary cannons even rotate in and out? Why not just stay out? The gattler I understand, but maybe you could add a spool-up sound?
Stupid IE and its scroll-jumping. Had to switch to FF, and now I can't remember the last point I was going to make. More forthcoming then I guess.
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The crosshair I think was QD's request (probably wrong about this), because QD absolutely loathes FS2's crosshairs since they're off-center or something.
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In Game Cutscenes are fine.
Model Optimization would be good, sometimes my frames drops suddenly, but most of the time everything is fine on maximum detail, but i read many other people have performance problems with WiH.
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The crosshair I think was QD's request (probably wrong about this), because QD absolutely loathes FS2's crosshairs since they're off-center or something.
Like i said, i like the IDEA of custom crosshairs, but the current one is just freakin tiny. It's like that damn little red dot they sometimes put in FPS games. Not to mention it's pretty easy to get lost in clutter and then you have NO aiming reference.
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A new ship/weapon selection screen would be cool. Showing range, projectile speed, shots per second, hull/shield/subsystem damage per second, energy use per second, hull/shield/subsystem damage per energy unit, shield piercing, (maneuverability, tracking ability, lock on speed, lock on angle for missles) and everything else i have to know to select my loadout (shots fired in bursts, swarm size, cooldown, warmup time, ammunition, push effect, cluster effect, emp, energy drain). Same for ships: speed, afterburn speed, maneuverability (number), armor (number), shield/weapon/afterburner capacity, reactor strength, and everything else i need to know (reverse thrust speed, sensors, cloaking, ship geometry with subsystems and shield geometry (i want to know how easy to hit i am) plus a graphical representation of the gunslots complete with capacity for secondarys just like in the weapon screen (combining weaponscreen and shipselectionscreen would be cool),
Most of this info could be derived directly from the ships. Only the section about anything else i need to know needs to be hand-written. No bad ship descriptions anymore for all mods (could go in the scp).
This in combination with the higher weapon diversity which is planned.
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Loadout info lenght is very limited. It's impossible to fit all that in there. However, weapon loadout details have already been improved.
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Loadout info lenght is very limited
Yes. I was thinkig of programming a new info/selection screen. With scroll buttons and submenus and so on.
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You go right ahead and do that, then.
Because that would take a lot of work in the engine, not to mention that doing it right now, before the interface system is rewritten, would be a waste of time.
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NGTM-1R, I know you haven't even played WiH yet because of your self-inflicted burn-out.
No.
You do not.
I made a couple early comments based on that, but I did play it after.
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Model optimization, and maybe the introduction of the 113th Carebear Assault Squadron.
:nod:
Or as a mission sim thing :doubt:
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I think I heard somewhere that FS2 Alpha 1 is dead in BP canon, but if I'm mistaken it would be pretty awesome to have a dogfight with the Blue Lions and their illustrious leader.
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I'm not sure if you guys are the right people to implement this, but I for one would like the ability to simultaneously fire two or more primaries on the ship flown near the end of part one (the Uriel?). It's a little thing, but synced rapier/gatlings would be sweet. Also I really want the Shivans to secretly be using Naomi to sabotage humanity. I know they probably aren't but that would just be sweet.
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How about some extra campaign or chapter that mainly do capital ship combat like the one in the demo, or featuring a different protagonist in a few chapters (Like Samuel's 'dream' in AoA where you play an unnamed pilot).
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Awards.
If I get a bonus objective, or kill an outstanding number of enemies, can you toss an award my way?
"A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon"
Napoleon Bonaparte
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Medals? ooooooo
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Things that almost definitely will happen:
Persistent consequences for choices in missions that influence later missions.
Expanded player control over the battlefield, past the usual 'give orders to wings of fighters' design.
A lot of new guns and ships.
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A lot of new guns and ships.
Luckily "a lot" is subjective.
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A lot of new guns and ships.
Luckily "a lot" is subjective.
'More than one of each!'
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I want closure with part 2. Expansion. More dakka. Possibly a mission to mars to buy some pie.
Regarding the capital command mission included with part one. I enjoyed it for novelties sake but I wouldn't be too keen on having to finish a whole mission as a requirement in part two.
I play Freespace for my fighter fix.
Also. . . . . A Bomber mission, whoop.
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I'm sure there'll be quite a few bomber missions in WiH part 2. They're the staple of any FreeSpace campaign.
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'More than one of each!'
More than one of each that we don't see in game, or more than one of each that we don't see in the Tech Room, even after Ctrl-Shift-S?
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'More than one of each!'
More than one of each that we don't see in game, or more than one of each that we don't see in the Tech Room, even after Ctrl-Shift-S?
I should clarify that you'll get to use ships like the Ainsarii, Izra'il, Durga and Vajradhra that were in R1 but never deployed.
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Awesome, too.
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The Durga was deployed in Collateral Damage, although the player doesn't fly it.
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The Durga was deployed in Collateral Damage, although the player doesn't fly it.
I believe you can also call some in during Aristeia from the point-buy deck, unless they were removed.
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They were still in.
And cost me five of my precious points.
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i found the saturation strike and gunships absolutely butchered the corvette
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If I had the time I'd try my hand at making a UEF main hall. No idea how doable that is.
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I tried out the Durga and Vajradhra in the Kentauroi Race mission... holy ****, they mount some badass cannons! Especially the Durga.
Now I know why that certain Corvette went down so fast when I ordered the heavy torpedo strike package. :pimp:
Really looking forward to the bomber missions!
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The race was fun aside from constantly losing the next waypoint. Auto target didn't seem to help. . .
The less said about massive battle the better. The only thing i'm glad about is that buntu melted before my cpu .
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I like the Tao afterburner. :D
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I'm not sure if you guys are the right people to implement this, but I for one would like the ability to simultaneously fire two or more primaries on the ship flown near the end of part one (the Uriel?). It's a little thing, but synced rapier/gatlings would be sweet. Also I really want the Shivans to secretly be using Naomi to sabotage humanity. I know they probably aren't but that would just be sweet.
We actually got a feature coded into the engine specifically to disable that ability. The reason is that you can't link any given two weapons; you have to either link none or all three. And nobody wants to link the Archer in with whatever else they're carrying.
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But he means specifically linking the other two weapons but leaving out the Archer.
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We could poke at that. It would need code-side alterations.
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Here's another idea for a missile:
It's very fast and maneuverable, but it does low damage. It's very small but can be carried i great number and has high firing rate. It's heat seeking.
Think:
capacity:Tornado
speed and tracking:better than tornado
range:2500
lock-on:Rockeye
Damage:half of a single tornado
firing speed:tempest
The point is: If this missile is fired at you it will almost certainly hit. But it's damage is so low you don't bother. Still it can be carried in great number and fired at a high rate. But the damage is so low, that it takes a long time to take someone down and you are out of ammo very fast. But if you really need to get someone down and the ammo expense and the time spend isn't important this is the missile that will get the job done. What it can also be used for is finishing of targets, which are too far away for primary weapons and don't have enough health to warant you wasting your time on. Remember that manicore which gets away without shield and 8% hull which dodges everything you shoot at it? This missile is the answer. So it's mainly of use against interceptors and scouts. It also saves you time, because it gets to the target very fast in such situations. The main use of this missile, though is intercepting warheads. Which it can because of it's fast targeting high speed high range and high firing rate.
It's mainly for heavy fighters like the Herc2 which need the range due to their low speed. which often have an interceptor problem and which have the secondary capacity to cope with the high ammo use. (maybe it should be made incompatible with bombers)
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Isn't that what the Dart is?
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So, basically a Dart with greater range and the option to fire single missiles instead of salvos...?
Now I actually have a big wish for part2:
After flying the Kentauroi Race with the Lao Tze instead of the Kentauroi and consistently being more than 20 seconds faster with it, I'd seriously like to fly the Lao Tze in at least one mission in part 2. Preferably one where the speed and maneuverability can be put to good use.
Because when flying the Lao Tze, the Kentauroi Race is pure adrenalin! And it's great fun!
Maybe hunt someone through hollow asteroids in the mining belt, or fly into the Death Star over Endo... oh wait. :D
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Isn't that what the Dart is?
A dart with single missiles greater range speed and tracking and less ammo. Note that the amount fired at a second would be lower despite the higher firing rate. It was originally thought up for the gtva in retail freespace.
Concerning Ideas:
I think we have too many fighters with two medium sized gunbanks and two medium sized missile banks.
Ideas would be:
Secondary sizes in tornadoes.
Keep in mind that the numbers are meant to balance in retail fs2 and not in WIH so you would need accordingly higher numbers. (I think gunpoint-creep and secondary-capacity-creep can be a problem)
laser: 1,2,3 secondary: 80,16 Theres always use for a single stiletto or a small amount of tempests.
laser: 6,1 secondary: 16,16 High fire power, but you can choose only one main weapon. choose subach for bomber intercept or kayser for dogfighting. The single one could be something like a maxim for bomb interception and as a finisher, or a circe or akheton. (insert random fed weapon) This is a primary weapon ship, interceptor like, really agile, but weakly armored. Gameplay is mainly knowing when to strike. You spend most of the time dodging.
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So, my dear General (and all the team) !
I will feel like like a **** if I ask other things like the dream you put in your work.
I know, there are some technologic issue (wrong models that beats FPS on some computer, some mission who are almost unbeatable even in very easy mode :D...)
But you've done already amazing work. I know the general plot wont be changed, and it's good at all. You're knowing where you're going :)
Just, another time : make us dream. And thank you for this great work already done !
P.S. : Sorry for my bad english, specially tonight (or today, or this morning...) , I'm drunk :nervous:
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That fast-firing missile sounds a lot like Steve-O's original Storm Fire missile.
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something like the hurricane from INF1 would be fun. and before you say hellfire, MOAR SPEED.
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The Feyadeen to be at LEAST as badass as SOC. I want some arcs reminiscent of the 99th Skulls. Laporte would probably be up for it with her bloodlust and all, eh?
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The Feyadeen to be at LEAST as badass as SOC. I want some arcs reminiscent of the 99th Skulls. Laporte would probably be up for it with her bloodlust and all, eh?
I thought the Knights of the White Brotherhood were Ubuntu's SOC. :confused:
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Nope, check the wiki article.
Also, read the what is ubuntu dossier thing on the bpsite and click the one regarding the Fedayeen, it explains the bare bones of it.
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The Feyadeen to be at LEAST as badass as SOC. I want some arcs reminiscent of the 99th Skulls. Laporte would probably be up for it with her bloodlust and all, eh?
I thought the Knights of the White Brotherhood were Ubuntu's SOC. :confused:
I think they're kind of like the praetorian guard for the Elders.
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The Feyadeen to be at LEAST as badass as SOC. I want some arcs reminiscent of the 99th Skulls. Laporte would probably be up for it with her bloodlust and all, eh?
Don't think they really have a reason to be that good. They usually operate against the population at large if anyone.
This is like comparing the Iranian Revolutionary Guard and the KGB. They fulfil the same functions in theory, but in practice...
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Well they may have had some rudimentary experience against the gefs.
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The Fedayeen serve a significantly larger purpose than that. But nobody on the team should say more.
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The Feyadeen to be at LEAST as badass as SOC. I want some arcs reminiscent of the 99th Skulls. Laporte would probably be up for it with her bloodlust and all, eh?
Don't think they really have a reason to be that good. They usually operate against the population at large if anyone.
This is like comparing the Iranian Revolutionary Guard and the KGB. They fulfil the same functions in theory, but in practice...
The Fedayeen rescued Laporte's ship with a Karuna, not a Corsair or two.
I think it is safe to assume the Fedayeen are not internal security forces, and have significantly more resources than anyone besides the Council of Elders is aware of.
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Narayana actually.
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The Fedayeen serve a significantly larger purpose than that. But nobody on the team should say more.
Fine. :P
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Narayana actually.
Oh great, that's an even more vital vessel than a Karuna.
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The Fedayeen rescued Laporte's ship with a Karuna, not a Corsair or two.
I think it is safe to assume the Fedayeen are not internal security forces, and have significantly more resources than anyone besides the Council of Elders is aware of.
The Revolutionary Guard are quite well-equipped too, arguably moreso then the KGB ever was, and are nearly a second army. In comparing the two, however, the point still stands; they're not well-trained and they're not terribly effective.
I was careful in choosing my analogy. :P
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But the Fedayeen have been able to keep such a low profile that most citizens of the UEF even doubt their very existance.
Now that might not mean they are top-notch pilots, but they got some serious skills in subterfuge and keeping secrets it would seem.
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That's the sign of good Special Forces.
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But the Fedayeen have been able to keep such a low profile that most citizens of the UEF even doubt their very existance.
Now that might not mean they are top-notch pilots, but they got some serious skills in subterfuge and keeping secrets it would seem.
Except IIRC, the Vasudan and Terran pilots who took down the Lucifer (Which means the OLD Alpha 1) all vanished into the Fedayeen when the Ubuntu came to power. Think of the Fedayeen as a secretive military group (Paramilitary might have some more accurate connotations about their role pre Sol-GTVA civil war) with some badass veterans at the top.
I don't think they're going to be ill-trained, at all. I wouldn't doubt that most of their members are former fleet/marines/spec ops/law enforcement etc.
And given the words of the Masyaf, they are linked to Nagari based projects/initiatives.
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I didn't want to say they are bad pilots, just that we don't know if they are. But even if they have top notch pilots, they can't have seen the kind of missions the SOC has. Taking down terrorists flying fighters from the beginning of the TV war can't be anywere near as challenging as going up against the NTF and the Shivans.
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Oh snap! If part 2 is a Fedayeen campaign and if FS1 Alpha 1 is still alive (sure he is, with FS technology), you've got to give him/her a cameo.
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Oh snap! If part 2 is a Fedayeen campaign and if FS1 Alpha 1 is still alive (sure he is, with FS technology), you've got to give him/her a cameo.
As what? He almost certainly wouldn't be a fighter pilot. :P
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No no, just... have him message you. Like "I fought the Shivans the first time, blah blah, great portents of doom, etc."
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Or, "Damn whipper-snappers and your external missiles and reverse afterburner and moving parts, why in my day we didn't even have shields in the beginning!"
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As what? He almost certainly wouldn't be a fighter pilot. :P
FS is The FutureTM, human longetivity is doubtless improved, and FS fighters aren't nearly as demanding as modern ones in the manuvering gee-forces department. If the team wanted to stick FS1's Alpha 1 in a cockpit one more time, anyone who wanted to gainsay that is an idiot. :P
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As what? He almost certainly wouldn't be a fighter pilot. :P
FS is The FutureTM, human longetivity is doubtless improved, and FS fighters aren't nearly as demanding as modern ones in the manuvering gee-forces department. If the team wanted to stick FS1's Alpha 1 in a cockpit one more time, anyone who wanted to gainsay that is an idiot. :P
Human longevity is indeed improved. There's mentions in the techroom of the Council of Elders gaining its name in part because members used longevity therapy to such an unprecedented extent.
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i guess that explains why Sam was still a "young" fighter pilot after 18 years.
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i guess that explains why Sam was still a "young" fighter pilot after 18 years.
That and his extensive tour of duty aboard the GTD Lorentz, cruising at .96 C.
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Most likely the old Alpha 1 from FS1 at least would be one of the fedayeen inner circle or at least a ship captain.
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Or he's simply dead. :)
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Mmm, but if you think about it, many successful WWII pilots (mostly Allied, I've noticed, but anyone with a basic knowledge of both sides can probably make an educated guess as to why) have dropped military aviation altogether and gone off in the opposite direction. Hell, a fair few guys barely talk about their war days, and for good reason.
I wouldn't see it as unlikely for him to do something similar to Admiral Bei once the Council of Elders and whoever have finished raiding him for knowledge. Although I do recall seeing somewhere that he meditated for a while with the Council, or something implying that he did. But after you've seen the horrors of war, and how futile the whole process is (how many people did the Alliance lose fighting the Shivans?), it'd be understandable for him to want to have nothing to do with the war at this point.
Or the cooler alternative, Fedayeen Operators knocking at his door and calling him out of retirement with the promise of flying. :P
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i guess that explains why Sam was still a "young" fighter pilot after 18 years.
That and his extensive tour of duty aboard the GTD Lorentz, cruising at .96 C.
where the hell did the GTVA get a destroyer that can go that fast? we go from ~30 m/s to 2880000 in 18 years?
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i guess that explains why Sam was still a "young" fighter pilot after 18 years.
That and his extensive tour of duty aboard the GTD Lorentz, cruising at .96 C.
where the hell did the GTVA get a destroyer that can go that fast? we go from ~30 m/s to 2880000 in 18 years?
They just turned off the inertial dampers, of course!
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Well, besides a showdown between a Ravana and a Solaris destroyer... ;)
I have to agree with requests for better anti-cap ship options. I got shredded whenever I went near GTVA forces, as was expected, so I just hung out at range and plinked turrets, and generally sacrificed my wingmen so I could live. Also, I know a big deal is made of 'fighting smart', with ships jumping out, but it seemed overplayed in the mission against the Carthage. EVERY enemy cruiser and corvette jumped out before I could finish them, and all friendly ships are simply massacred. Sure, it was all part of Steele' "according to keikaku" plan, but it felt unrealistic for a major engagement for the enemy not to lose a single vessel.
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Well, besides a showdown between a Ravana and a Solaris destroyer... ;)
I have to agree with requests for better anti-cap ship options. I got shredded whenever I went near GTVA forces, as was expected, so I just hung out at range and plinked turrets, and generally sacrificed my wingmen so I could live. Also, I know a big deal is made of 'fighting smart', with ships jumping out, but it seemed overplayed in the mission against the Carthage. EVERY enemy cruiser and corvette jumped out before I could finish them, and all friendly ships are simply massacred. Sure, it was all part of Steele' "according to keikaku" plan, but it felt unrealistic for a major engagement for the enemy not to lose a single vessel.
It's not unrealistic if it plays by the rules of the setting. Those ships all triggered their jump drives when they fell below a certain percent, and we made sure that they'd all had enough time to recharge since their last jump to do so. It would've been unrealistic for them not to do so.
What you can do (and what may make you feel better about the battle) is use your Archers or Paveways to disable some of those ships. Then they can't warp out and will get owned.
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I haven't tried with the others, but I did managed to destroy the Juarez by hitting the engines with scalpels.
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Cruisers tend to die before they can jump out, especially if they come under fire from several spacecraft and a warship. Same goes for AWACS vessels, except that those can die even if you only have four to five wingmen. The last four AWACS I attacked went down before they could jump out.
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In the rest of War in Heaven I want mass Gef killing.
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Some people are complaining that the player (Laporte) doesnt play a big enough role in battles. I like it the way it is, it just feels more realistic. In the original fs1 and fs2 campaign i was wondering why the GTVA (and other races) build these huge destroyers, frigates, corvettes and so on. One fighter was strong enough to disable capships. It just didn't make any sense.
AND i think Laporte is going to play a large role in the upcoming part. (Why else would the council be so interested in her?)
I would like to hear voiced dialogues. It's just very hard to read the text while fighting a dozen Tevs. I know that this is a lot of work. But it would double the fun. And immersion.
Another wish: Add some easier missions, that we (i think, I'm not the only one) don't have to try 20 times. Don't get me wrong, i like these long and challenging missions. But sometimes i was close to giving up (or did give up for a couple of hours ;) ) and i think some shorter missions between the difficult ones would boost morale.
But my most important wish: just finish the mod. I'm going to play it anyway.
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It is supposed to be like that, as in 'real life', the player character should not be the 'one man army' among several squads of red shirts.
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It is supposed to be like that, as in 'real life', the player character should not be the 'one man army' among several squads of red shirts.
Yep. One of our design objectives was to have the wingmen feel as effective and real as the player, so that you were an elite pilot amongst elite pilots, not a one-woman-army.
At one point we had a mission where there was a bonus goal to beat your various fellow Wargods' kill counts; unfortunately we realized the code behind the SEXP that tracks a ship's kills only works for players, not AI, so we had to cut it.
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sounds like a feature request for FSO. ;7
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That kind of mission would be a great idea (in fact, it sounds like something I'd really like to FRED).
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It is supposed to be like that, as in 'real life', the player character should not be the 'one man army' among several squads of red shirts.
Yep. One of our design objectives was to have the wingmen feel as effective and real as the player, so that you were an elite pilot amongst elite pilots, not a one-woman-army.
At one point we had a mission where there was a bonus goal to beat your various fellow Wargods' kill counts; unfortunately we realized the code behind the SEXP that tracks a ship's kills only works for players, not AI, so we had to cut it.
I like it the way it is, but especially in the Saturn mission diving headfirst into Tev bomber formations with cannons blazing to break them up was pretty fun.
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You need to be more careful about overtly presenting the UEF's viewpoint with the campaign and overtly outlining its differences from how the GTVA operates, because nothing hurts a story worse than it looking like it's biased. Now I've said before that a fighterpilot shipboard during active combat is the wrong place to try and be studying the horror of war unless you're careful, and I don't think you were careful enough. WiH has a bad habit of still being able to hear the author talking when the work is trying to speak. Can I point to anything in particular? No, not really.
I'm sure you can find it yourself since you know the story better than I. Subtlety is rarely the result of concious thought in storytelling.
yeah, do a few missions from the GTVA's point of view
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I want to be helmsman on capship in next relase. :) Just return from Blade It Self , that was awesome i love it.
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These are some ideas for Part 2
1) I'd like Samuel Bei and Noemi Laporte to meet and to find out what the secret Project is
-as an addendum, I'd like corey and taylor to return
2) Dang it! I want to know who Ken is...if he's who I think he is. His opinion that the Tev-Zod alliance should die rings bells
3) What's the Stance of the BP Team on the FS2 Alpha 1 surviving the Battle of Capella?
'Cos I'd like to see the FS2 Alpha One ( still leading the 70th Blue Lions) in story as a War Hero from the Second Incursion - He doesn't have to be named:
His family have a tradition of taking the callsign Alpha One as their name when in service. Including his father who fought in Operation Templar, his Grandfather who was trapped in sol. [I don't include ST/ST:R A1 because we ALL know that was Bosch.]
I think, if the Storyline is GTVA POV, he should defect to UEF. If is UEF side, he is a sort of reoccuing boss as a rival and nemesis to the Player Character. Someone the PC hates, but respects and considers honorable (unless he has since crossed the moral event hoizon) and hates him even more for that...Actually, that has merit for a campaign in universe all of its own...
Granted I know that FS2 has a live/die choice for the ending and I hate to force my opinion of the outcome on others but... it might be interesting to see...
4) I'd also like to see Snipes turn up
5)Last but not least and most of all, I want the story to be as good as, if not better than Part 1.
I also want the WiH cliffhanger to be the most shocking of all
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These are some ideas for Part 2
1) I'd like Samuel Bei and Noemi Laporte to meet and to find out what the secret Project is
-as an addendum, I'd like corey and taylor to return
You didn't read the post-credit dialogue in Sunglare did you? Sam Bei is already deeply involved in that secret project.
4) I'd also like to see Snipes turn up
You missed the appearance of the GTCv Snipes in the Artemis Station cutscene. Ships are not named for living people.
5)Last but not least and most of all, I want the story to be as good as, if not better than Part 1.
I also want the WiH cliffhanger to be the most shocking of all
We'll certainly try.
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4) I'd also like to see Snipes turn up
You missed the appearance of the GTCv Snipes in the Artemis Station cutscene. Ships are not named for living people.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO :eek:
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You missed the appearance of the GTCv Snipes in the Artemis Station cutscene. Ships are not named for living people.
Actually, they are. But not very often.
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4) I'd also like to see Snipes turn up
You missed the appearance of the GTCv Snipes in the Artemis Station cutscene. Ships are not named for living people.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO :eek:
Whoa there. I'm not necessarily sure Snipes is confirmed dead in BP canon.
He could have gone on some deep cover assignment and changed his name and pretended to be dead, too. :nervous:
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Let's look at the facts though. That assignment would have to be really, REALLY deep cover, since just as ships are only rarely named after living people, they are only rarely named after shadowy deep cover agents who do their best to remain unknown, indicating that Snipes must have done something to earn public recognition. Otherwise the naming ceremony for that ship would have been kinda awkward ("We name this ship Snipes, after an awesome deep cover operative who .... errr .... did various highly classified things we can't tell you about. Rest assured, his conduct was always exemplary. At least, I think it was. I mean, [REDACTED] is good, right?")....
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I'm not ready to declare Snipes canonically deaded, is all. Petrarch was one thing.
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Let's look at the facts though. That assignment would have to be really, REALLY deep cover, since just as ships are only rarely named after living people, they are only rarely named after shadowy deep cover agents who do their best to remain unknown, indicating that Snipes must have done something to earn public recognition. Otherwise the naming ceremony for that ship would have been kinda awkward ("We name this ship Snipes, after an awesome deep cover operative who .... errr .... did various highly classified things we can't tell you about. Rest assured, his conduct was always exemplary. At least, I think it was. I mean, [REDACTED] is good, right?")....
How about - joining the 14th battlegroup as a crewman on the Labouchere (Under an assumed name after his Snipes persona was 'killed'), to monitor the situation with the 14th's attempted takeover of Sol, after the botched transit and the events therein, he got caught in the defection. His objectives then changed - bring down the UEF from the inside. He was the guy that the Wargods theorised betrayed them with the Elders meeting schedule and more.
Snipes is Steele's shadow hand.
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A random thought: is there an Admiral Fallon in the UEF/GTVA fleets?
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A random thought: is there an Admiral Fallon in the UEF/GTVA fleets?
Please let that be his forename, and let his surname be 'Uresord'. (You may have to say this out loud to get where my tired thought processes were going)
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2) Dang it! I want to know who Ken is...if he's who I think he is. His opinion that the Tev-Zod alliance should die rings bells
...
...wait...
...
:eek2:
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Bosch Beer?
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Aken Bosch?
I don't know. I don't really care about speculating, but the name connection is pretty funny.
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I'd like flying a Naryana at some point, with an option to use the reinforcement pool system. :D
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Aken Bosch?
I don't know. I don't really care about speculating, but the name connection is pretty funny.
That's a very interesting thought, but I don't think it will end up being that obvious.
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Let's hope so. Otherwise they have to redo the story-writing for chapter 2 :p
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Aken Bosch?
I don't know. I don't really care about speculating, but the name connection is pretty funny.
That's a very interesting thought, but I don't think it will end up being that obvious.
There is of course the matter that Laporte also had a "Ken episode" in her youth (remember the ants?), when Aken Bosch was still in GTVA space, probably preparing for the NTF rebellion.
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War in Heaven takes place 19 years after Capella. Noemi Laporte is 19 years old. Do the Math.
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...
*runs off to replay entire campaign*
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Aken Bosch?
I don't know. I don't really care about speculating, but the name connection is pretty funny.
That's a very interesting thought, but I don't think it will end up being that obvious.
There is of course the matter that Laporte also had a "Ken episode" in her youth (remember the ants?), when Aken Bosch was still in GTVA space, probably preparing for the NTF rebellion.
The_E just made that a falsehood, which makes the connection a little more ominous.
And since Aken was captured by the Shivans, it also adds yet more credence to my 'Ken is a Shivan' theory
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War in Heaven takes place 19 years after Capella. Noemi Laporte is 19 years old. Do the Math.
She is only 19? I though she would be more around the 25..... If it is written ingame I must have overread or forgotten that :o
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War in Heaven takes place 19 years after Capella. Noemi Laporte is 19 years old. Do the Math.
She is only 19? I though she would be more around the 25..... If it is written ingame I must have overread or forgotten that :o
I'm not sure the campaign actually makes her age canonical. She could be 25 and still fit with the above theory, though.
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Yeah, the point is, she was contacted in her childhood. Which happened several years after Capella.
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I think I made the...
aKEN bosch
...reference ages ago, I can imagine they may have studied said person and templated him, or puppeteered him entirely.
Back on the what do I want topic, I think I want a proper suicide infiltration mission, a la Lion's Den but with Tev's to spy on. Maybe as far as slipping behind the Sol - Gamma Draconis node to scan something like the gate (UEF may want to know how it works) or find what's lurking on the other side etc as a vital step to be able to make a tactically sound decission with the info gathered. Of course dear Noemi manages to survive said encounter and lives to fly another day (while she probably goes ape**** and slaughters an entire squadron while there.. and somehow with Noemi that sounds scaringly plausible... :eek2:).
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actually, the aKEN bosch theory clears up some weirdness in a line of dialog between ken and noemi.
It was in one of the journal-ish entry bits between missions, telling a story of Noemi having to choose between two warring ant colonies. Ken makes a remark, somewhere along the lines of "I made this choice once, yours will be much harder", which always struck me as very un-shivan/vishnan-ish.
But, if Ken = Aken Bosch, as in the actual person, then it actually makes a lot of sense. Bosch made a similar choice. In order to complete the ETAK project and, in his mind, save humanity from the shivans he unleashed a monster in the NTF. Essentially, in order to preserve humanity, he instigated a war which resulted in hundreds of thousands of human casualties. Which is quite similar to what Noemi is being told to do, destroy the GTVA and kill untold amounts of people in the process to save the UEF.
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If that turns out to be the case...
/me will be vomiting all over the place
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I know the plot is set in stone, but it would be cool to see the Bosch plotline dealt with, in more than a just passing reference or sideplot in BP. We spent a lot of time dealing with it in FS2, after all, with no conclusion.
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If that turns out to be the case...
/me will be vomiting all over the place
I wouldn't get all nauseous yet...
For one thing, Ken certainly does not sound like Aken Bosch in the crate-messages during Noemi's vision. The use of "we" in the message, particularly the "we too fight our own war in heaven" sounds very much like a shivan talking as he/she/it would be more likely to refer to he/she/it's race using "we" and "our", whereas if it was a 1 to 1 conversation with Bosch playing the role of Ken I'd expect to see "I too fight my own war in heaven", assuming he's assisting the shivans.
Additionally, the Ken = Bosch theory runs into difficulty just due to the timeline. Specifically, how the hell do the shivan's know to specifically groom Noemi to work as their agent immediately following Capella? Either they:
A: Can view time-space in bulk vishnan style, which doesn't seem likely given the very large amount of differences in how the vishnan's and shivans fight AND the "we shall see about that" comment at the end of AoA, which certainly doesn't sound like somebody who already knows the result.
or
B: Have incredibly detailed intelligence on both the UEF and GTVA, detailed enough to correctly predict every major economic/political event that leads to the civil war.
or
C: There is a incredibly convoluted explanation including the multi-verse (I doubt that was thrown in there for ****s and giggles), whatever the Sathanas fleet was trying to do when they blew up the Capella star, and time-travel, with the end result being something that is only going to cause headaches trying to figure out.
But to bring it back to Bosch, options A and C involve shivan-specific characteristics, and B is just plain unlikely as hell and frankly a bad explanation to begin with.
The point I'm trying to strain out here is that while the Ken=Bosch theory is interesting there's no way to tell if Ken is Bosch or a Shivan. I'd put very good money however on Ken NOT being a vishnan though, my primary argument stemming from the fact that Vishnan's refer to the shivan's as their sisters, whereas ken refers to the other side of his war as brothers. So either Ken is NOT a vishnan or there is a 4th race we know absolutely nothing about that somehow got involved while we weren't looking.
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Specifically, how the hell do the shivan's know to specifically groom Noemi to work as their agent immediately following Capella?
They didn't have to "know". They could have just picked anyone. But why make a game about someone other than the person they picked?
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I want to speculate in silence and then rub your faces in it when BP3 is released :lol:
Awww, heck, I'll do it now:
Just kidding. I chickened out and deleted it at the last moment...
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omfg spoiler tagz
For one thing, Ken certainly does not sound like Aken Bosch in the crate-messages during Noemi's vision. The use of "we" in the message, particularly the "we too fight our own war in heaven" sounds very much like a shivan talking as he/she/it would be more likely to refer to he/she/it's race using "we" and "our", whereas if it was a 1 to 1 conversation with Bosch playing the role of Ken I'd expect to see "I too fight my own war in heaven", assuming he's assisting the shivans.
If Bosch has been influenced by the Shivans, or is otherwise working with them, it's perfectly conceivable that he would refer to Shivans as "we".
Additionally, the Ken = Bosch theory runs into difficulty just due to the timeline. Specifically, how the hell do the shivan's know to specifically groom Noemi to work as their agent immediately following Capella? Either they:
A: Can view time-space in bulk vishnan style, which doesn't seem likely given the very large amount of differences in how the vishnan's and shivans fight AND the "we shall see about that" comment at the end of AoA, which certainly doesn't sound like somebody who already knows the result.
Their time could exist orthogonally to ours. Imagine looking at a stream: if you toss in a stone so it blocks the stream, the flow is affected downstream. Time is essentially flowing in the stream's direction. A statement of time for them would have little meaning to us, since their time is an entirely different concept that we probably cannot even observe, but it would be meaningful for them. And maybe their plans involve the Terrans and Zods of the near future, making their future our future for this one specific conflict.
I'm just saying that could be another possibility.
or
B: Have incredibly detailed intelligence on both the UEF and GTVA, detailed enough to correctly predict every major economic/political event that leads to the civil war.
Given that they can observe the entirety of our spacetime, that doesn't seem unreasonable.
or
C: There is a incredibly convoluted explanation including the multi-verse (I doubt that was thrown in there for ****s and giggles), whatever the Sathanas fleet was trying to do when they blew up the Capella star, and time-travel, with the end result being something that is only going to cause headaches trying to figure out.
Well, interdimensional travel does seem to be a major point so far, at least symbolically. Remember that the Shivans (presumably) entered a new dimension while destroying the Capella star. The Vishnans allowed us to return to our spacetime (and probably yanked us out of it in the first place) by changing, while preserving an existing node. We, inadvertently, crossed barriers while recreating a node back to Sol- albeit with Vishnan help, and certainly not intentionally.
But to bring it back to Bosch, options A and C involve shivan-specific characteristics, and B is just plain unlikely as hell and frankly a bad explanation to begin with.
The point I'm trying to strain out here is that while the Ken=Bosch theory is interesting there's no way to tell if Ken is Bosch or a Shivan. I'd put very good money however on Ken NOT being a vishnan though, my primary argument stemming from the fact that Vishnan's refer to the shivan's as their sisters, whereas ken refers to the other side of his war as brothers. So either Ken is NOT a vishnan or there is a 4th race we know absolutely nothing about that somehow got involved while we weren't looking.
Going by the species we know so far, Shivan is the most likely choice for Ken. Some of Ken's lines mirror Aken's, and the message he presents is virtually the same as Bosch's reasoning for the NTF.
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A: Can view time-space in bulk vishnan style, which doesn't seem likely given the very large amount of differences in how the vishnan's and shivans fight AND the "we shall see about that" comment at the end of AoA, which certainly doesn't sound like somebody who already knows the result.
Except that the foreknowledge the Vishnans have is not 100% accurate, especially not regarding another entity similar to themselves.
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Going by the species we know so far, Shivan is the most likely choice for Ken. Some of Ken's lines mirror Aken's, and the message he presents is virtually the same as Bosch's reasoning for the NTF.
Considering that Aken Bosch is most likely the first human the Shivans came into non-lethal contact with, it's hardly surprising that they would take on some of his characteristics or his way of talking when communicating with other Humans.
After all it looked as if the Vishnans could only comprehend our way of perceiving time and space once they met up with Sam. In addition the naming scheme for their ships also seems to be taken out of Sams head.
On anothe notion the Shivans didn't take only Bosch with them. In the mission in FS2 the ones left behind on the Iceni said that "Bosch and his commandcrew" boarded the Azreal. I can't remember the exact quote, but it is something to that effect.
And who sais that the container messages are from the being that talks directly to Neomi? Maybe Ken just guided Neomi toward that "depot" so she could read up on the argument between Shivans and Vishnans, for some reason.
Probably to prepare her for becoming part of that conflict in BP3.
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To respond to the thread title...
MOAR DAKKA!!! A LOT MOAR DAKKA!
as in, use those capship missiles to their utter and fullest effect. give us THOUSANDS(where applicable) of rounds and explosion being thrown around an then some.
ROW ROW FIGHT DA POWA!
this is about the level of dakka i'm talking about. liking the source of the above quote does not relate to the fact that the show got so ridiculously over the top that it simply wasnt enough in the end. nothing ever is enough... i'm rambling. in short, MOAR DAKKA!
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There's a projectile limit of about 700 at once, I doubt that reaching it is a good idea though.
It prevents FS from handling true dakka.
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tis sad :(
dere iz neva enuff dakka... :(
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dere iz neva enuff dakka... :(
This is always true. If it is physically possible to add more dakka somehow, then you do not have enough. If it is physically impossible to add more dakka, you still don't have enough. If you were to turn all reality into dakka, you're mucking about instead of being Orky enough and you still don't have enough dakka.
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More kittens..
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More kittens..
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii237/gretch1966/cat_gun.gif)
Sorry, couldn't resist. :nervous:
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dere iz neva enuff dakka... :(
This is always true. If it is physically possible to add more dakka somehow, then you do not have enough. If it is physically impossible to add more dakka, you still don't have enough. If you were to turn all reality into dakka, you're mucking about instead of being Orky enough and you still don't have enough dakka.
you know how i feel.
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More kittens..
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii237/gretch1966/cat_gun.gif)
Sorry, couldn't resist. :nervous:
Hey, you get the best of both worlds, more kittens and dakka. ;7
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More kittens..
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii237/gretch1966/cat_gun.gif)
Sorry, couldn't resist. :nervous:
Buntu Kittens! Not Tev Kittens..
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Buntu Kittens! Not Tev Kittens..
This? :nervous:
(http://koti.welho.com/ahesso/Animation/Cats_Ihasforcefield.jpg)
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↑
:lol:
EDIT : More seriously, I know it had been probably writted here, but very great battles between big ****ing ship would be very nice to see. And to enjoy flying between :D
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Ursas (Ursae?). They probably have Balor turrets now, too. :shaking:
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Ursas (Ursae?). They probably have Balor turrets now, too. :shaking:
Bleh. The GTVA doesn't need more useless flying deathboxes. Tev bombers are unlikely to get more than one payload off before being splashed, so "heavy" bombers like the Boanerges and Ursa are largely useless. I think the way forward is to either make new bomber classes much lighter and faster or to replace the bomber class entirely with SSM strikes.
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The techroom says as much, really. Though old bombers are probably cheap enough for anti-shipping raids, the boring stuff, since they already have time lying around.
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If there's no heavy bomber, who carries the Helios/larger bombs?
SSM deployment?
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If there's no heavy bomber, who carries the Helios/larger bombs?
SSM deployment?
Exactly. You don't need heavy bombers when an Ares or Herc 2 wing can deliver more firepower in a more survivable package.
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Yeah, we're pretty sure at this point that heavy bombers are a dying breed.
We're experimenting with some interesting alternatives.
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I actually think something as simple as a few wings of Herc2s armed with Maxims could completely replace bombers against the majority of Federation targets. They're not as vulnerable, their payloads can't be shot down and they don't even need to get in close.
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I know when I played I was a lot more worried about the Herc 2s than I was about the traditional bombers. Even the Artemis goes down so quickly and all its torps are typically splashed by point defense turrets. The Herc 2 however can melt a civie transport faster than you can blink.
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Like how they raped the Argent Mist?
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The one thing 1 want to see in WiH2...
oh yea, an Adm. Steele punching bag mini game :P
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I actually think something as simple as a few wings of Herc2s armed with Maxims could completely replace bombers against the majority of Federation targets. They're not as vulnerable, their payloads can't be shot down and they don't even need to get in close.
UEF ships may start rolling with Maxim-resistant armor, though.
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I actually think something as simple as a few wings of Herc2s armed with Maxims could completely replace bombers against the majority of Federation targets. They're not as vulnerable, their payloads can't be shot down and they don't even need to get in close.
UEF ships may start rolling with Maxim-resistant armor, though.
HINT HINT. He's on the BP team
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UEF ships may start rolling with Maxim-resistant armor, though.
UEF Panzer IV ??? :p
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UEF Panzer IV ??? :p
UEF Panther II :O
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I actually think something as simple as a few wings of Herc2s armed with Maxims could completely replace bombers against the majority of Federation targets. They're not as vulnerable, their payloads can't be shot down and they don't even need to get in close.
UEF ships may start rolling with Maxim-resistant armor, though.
Oh, snap...
Well the UEF have torpedo resistant armor and beam jamming technology, doesn't stop them from being somewhat effective.
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I actually think something as simple as a few wings of Herc2s armed with Maxims could completely replace bombers against the majority of Federation targets. They're not as vulnerable, their payloads can't be shot down and they don't even need to get in close.
UEF ships may start rolling with Maxim-resistant armor, though.
...
I must say, that sounds inherently stupid. The Maxim is shooting a pretty large caliber projectile made of U-238 (depleted uranium) at (for FS speeds) very high velocities. The notion that you could just pass off the tremendous kinetic energy and momentum from those weapons is just silly - even something like ERA (Explosive Reactive Armor) is pushing it as, hey, it blows up to prevent an incoming round from making contact! Destroyable armor plates are one thing, but armor "resistant" to physics and/or common sense is entirely different. And, as a disclaimer, I will note FS makes legendary stabs against physics, but simultaneously it has a sort of believable gameplay to it (thus not conflicting with common sense).
*EDIT: Thanks, Klaus, I can't belive I stuck the fissionable uranium isotope in there! U-235 changed to 238. :)
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U-238*
sorry. though i don't really have a huge problem with maxim RESISTANT armor. if we go maxim-PROOF, then yeah.
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...
I must say, that sounds inherently stupid. The Maxim is shooting a pretty large caliber projectile made of U-235 (depleted uranium) at (for FS speeds) very high velocities. The notion that you could just pass off the tremendous kinetic energy and momentum from those weapons is just silly - even something like ERA (Explosive Reactive Armor) is pushing it as, hey, it blows up to prevent an incoming round from making contact! Destroyable armor plates are one thing, but armor "resistant" to physics and/or common sense is entirely different. And, as a disclaimer, I will note FS makes legendary stabs against physics, but simultaneously it has a sort of believable gameplay to it (thus not conflicting with common sense).
That was a pretty violent outburst, huh.
I really don't see what's so unbelievable about armor that is resistant to being shot.
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I really don't see what's so unbelievable about armor that is resistant to being shot.
Its really hand-wavy and magic. "we can make armor resistant to anything you throw at us, without sacrificing resistance to anything else!"
Unless of course, your maxim-resistant armor melts uber-quick to subachs or something.
No magic everything-proof armor plz. That's just dumb.
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we can make armor resistant to anything you throw at us, without sacrificing resistance to anything else!
Nobody said it was more resistant to anything but Maxims.
Edit: oh hm, that subach comment... perhaps i was too hasty
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Yes, but maxims is just the first (second? since they already have the bomb-resistant down) step towards that! :shaking:
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...
Actually the concept of just slapping new armor with radically different material properties sounds a bit crazy in itself. If it were just extra material of the same type that would be reasonably permissible since, y'know, multi-megaton forces and all that. But replacing it with something totally different can't do anything good for the ship's overall structural dynamics.
...and if it's turret, how are you going to protect it any better without altering its field of fire or ability to react to new targets? The muzzle has got to stay uncovered...
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Yes, but maxims is just the first (second? since they already have the bomb-resistant down) step towards that! :shaking:
...and I did not speak out, for I was not a GTW-66 Maxim Cannon
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I suppose you COULD just build new transports. Kinda like how the U.S. started rolling out new vehicles capable of (hopefully) withstanding IEDs.
But that's expensive, the logistics of distribution are a nightmare, and I doubt it's commercially viable to outfit civie ships like that. Really if you're in a civie and GTVA shows up and tells you to cut your engines you should probably do as your told. Wonder how GTVA handles UEF prisoners or civilian detainees.
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I don't think the GTVA will kill any prisoners or detainees. However, if the captured individual was a deserter, they may either be executed or stripped of their wings and all privileges bestowed upon them as a member of the GTVA. What the GTVA probably wants to know is how the UEF works, and they can only do that by moles or interrogating whoever they capture.
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I must say, that sounds inherently stupid. The Maxim is shooting a pretty large caliber projectile made of U-235 (depleted uranium) at (for FS speeds) very high velocities. The notion that you could just pass off the tremendous kinetic energy and momentum from those weapons is just silly - even something like ERA (Explosive Reactive Armor) is pushing it as, hey, it blows up to prevent an incoming round from making contact! Destroyable armor plates are one thing, but armor "resistant" to physics and/or common sense is entirely different. And, as a disclaimer, I will note FS makes legendary stabs against physics, but simultaneously it has a sort of believable gameplay to it (thus not conflicting with common sense).
Hm... so armor that is more resistant to Maxims than the standard UEF armor is more unrealistic than an energy based weapon firing infinate numbers of uranium rounds?
I'd like to petition to either change the maxims techroom entry or make it a ballistic weapon. Tough changing the techroom entry is probably the better idea, since with that rate of fire it would eat up ammunition very fast, which in return is very likely to alter misson balance.
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Missions in lao tze's... :nod:
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I actually think something as simple as a few wings of Herc2s armed with Maxims could completely replace bombers against the majority of Federation targets. They're not as vulnerable, their payloads can't be shot down and they don't even need to get in close.
UEF ships may start rolling with Maxim-resistant armor, though.
...
I must say, that sounds inherently stupid. The Maxim is shooting a pretty large caliber projectile made of U-235 (depleted uranium) at (for FS speeds) very high velocities. The notion that you could just pass off the tremendous kinetic energy and momentum from those weapons is just silly - even something like ERA (Explosive Reactive Armor) is pushing it as, hey, it blows up to prevent an incoming round from making contact! Destroyable armor plates are one thing, but armor "resistant" to physics and/or common sense is entirely different. And, as a disclaimer, I will note FS makes legendary stabs against physics, but simultaneously it has a sort of believable gameplay to it (thus not conflicting with common sense).
You're silly.
1) gameplay uber alles - the Maxim has needed a nerf since retail and this is the only way we can do it without altering retail balance (BP is committed to near-total retail compatibility
2) Right now, today, at this very moment, there exists armor that is resistant to ballistic penetrators. Your failure to understand this indicates that you, in fact, live in a parallel universe where everything is built using the same structural techniques as the armor of medieval knights. I have alerted the Department of Interdimensional Affairs, because there seems to be no other explanation for this gross oversight.
3) gameplay uber alles. We will do whatever the heck we like if it makes the gameplay better. But just for you we can put in a mission where you escort a cruiser from waves of twelve or sixteen Hercs with Maxims. Enjoy.
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Actually the concept of just slapping new armor with radically different material properties sounds a bit crazy in itself. If it were just extra material of the same type that would be reasonably permissible since, y'know, multi-megaton forces and all that. But replacing it with something totally different can't do anything good for the ship's overall structural dynamics.
...and if it's turret, how are you going to protect it any better without altering its field of fire or ability to react to new targets? The muzzle has got to stay uncovered...
That's funny, we just spent a few years watching this happen in Iraq!
Also, gameplay > everything
I really don't see what's so unbelievable about armor that is resistant to being shot.
Its really hand-wavy and magic. "we can make armor resistant to anything you throw at us, without sacrificing resistance to anything else!"
Unless of course, your maxim-resistant armor melts uber-quick to subachs or something.
No magic everything-proof armor plz. That's just dumb.
See above.
Again, the Maxim has needed a nerf since retail. We can't alter the Maxim's retail table stats without changing backwards compatibility. This is the best way to gain missionside control of its potency, and the set-armor-type and set-damage-type SEXPs will do wonders for our modular control over Maxim behavior.
In general we belong to the Procyon Insurgency school of mission design, where anything and everything was altered on a mission-by-mission basis in order to improve the gameplay.
And to clarify, this would probably be a case-by-case 20-40% reduction in Maxim damage, not some kind of Maxim-proofing. It's far less dramatic than some of the armor ships in R1 were rolling with.
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Expandulated!
Our fluff for armor types is pretty broad. We use them to represent changing ECM environments, varying weapon loads, and the vagaries of active armor - a system we've intentionally left pretty opaque (see below.) In general, armor types (and now weapon, shockwave, and asteroid damage types, which just got added by Fury's request) can be used to handle elements of the battlespace that fall below the resolution of the FreeSpace simulation.
Active armor was originally just a conceit to justify rapid hull regeneration between missions, something akin to BattleTech's HarJel. As we looked through the FreeSpace fluff, though, we realized that even in the FreeSpace 1 era the setting had shielded missiles and other oft-overlooked peculiarities. Our armor fluff right now postulates that FreeSpace warships are studded with integral defensive systems akin to fighter shields, massive ECM abilities, banks of reactive armor panels, active countermeasures like laser pods, and a myriad of other defensive technologies.
If you played 'The Blade Itself', which it sounds like Thaeris hasn't since he apparently missed the reactive armor fluff there, you have an idea of how we'd justify improved resistance versus Maxims - additional reactive plating field-refitted onto ships, laser pods and improved targeting to degrade the ballistic characteristics of inbound Maxim rounds, fortified hull armor to tumble the munitions or otherwise defeat them, additional power to ECM or modifications to the software to degrade Maxim fire control (since we assume most FS2-era primaries use something akin to the FS1 Maxim), or applique plates to simply improve the thickness.
You'll also note that the Carthage was field-testing an armor system which improved resistance to Federation artillery and torpedoes, presumably operating on similar principles.
In general remember that these are ships that routinely survive dozens of nuclear-yield blasts. Postulating that armor of that magnitude can't be used to defeat kinetic penetrators is...odd.
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since we assume most FS2-era primaries use something akin to the FS1 Maxim
err... what ?
I know that something is wrong here, but I don't see what you actually wanted to say here.
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since we assume most FS2-era primaries use something akin to the FS1 Maxim
err... what ?
I know that something is wrong here, but I don't see what you actually wanted to say here.
Whoops! I meant Prometheus. Good catch.
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Prometheus adjusts the frequency somehow to match the target, right? Except that it automagically can see into the future to know what the shot is actually going to hit :p
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Prometheus adjusts the frequency somehow to match the target, right? Except that it automagically can see into the future to know what the shot is actually going to hit :p
I think it's safe to assume most ships are made out of a single-alloy hull. :P
...they even suggest the Ursa is more "cast" than "assembled".
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Prometheus adjusts the frequency somehow to match the target, right? Except that it automagically can see into the future to know what the shot is actually going to hit :p
... sensors ?
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In the rounds?
Considering FS principles and all that you could even justify a Sub-Space Defense Field (SSDF). Warps incoming rounds into sub-space and into enemy ships?
If I ever get into figuring out how to make a mission/ do code I'll have to try that. Could be fun.
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In the rounds?
Wat
Sensors in the cannon. They "tag" the target, analyse the hull materials and modulate the bolts before firing. Pretty obvious.
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Or more likely linking the weapon to the ships targeting computer to adapt the shots to the current target.
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I believe what he is talking about is you don't always hit what you have targeted.
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Indeed. Or, sometimes, anything that was in your field of vision when you fired.
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I believe what he is talking about is you don't always hit what you have targeted.
Precisely.
The Prometheus can see into the future and predict stuff. And optimizes its damage accordingly. Even if it's a friendly you hit with it :p
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I still maintain that the shots should adapt to the current target and that they adapt to what they actually hit is only a "limitation of the game engine" or "sprouting technobabbly in the techroom" :p
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More like separating fluff and gameplay. Remember, the Avenger was a Vulcan/Phalanx CIWS analogue in the FS1 techroom too, not a slow blob cannon.
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A thought out of the blue: what about multi-targeting swarm missiles? Like today's planes, that can launch many air -to-air missiles at many targets at the same time.
And, like today's planes (I think), depending on the ship you choose. you can lock on more or less targets. For example, getting this missile on the Kentauroi will allow you to lock on 4 targets. On the Uriel, 8.
Will this lead to imbalanced gameplay? It could at least be used to make bomb interception easier.
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A thought out of the blue: what about multi-targeting swarm missiles? Like today's planes, that can launch many air -to-air missiles at many targets at the same time.
And, like today's planes (I think), depending on the ship you choose. you can lock on more or less targets. For example, getting this missile on the Kentauroi will allow you to lock on 4 targets. On the Uriel, 8.
Will this lead to imbalanced gameplay? It could at least be used to make bomb interception easier.
That would be pretty cool. Multiple targeting and multiple swarm missiles are all possible via scripting already.
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that's kindof approximated with the slammer
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Yeah, but we can do better.
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I started playing Wings of Dawn last week, I think there were multi-targeting swarm missiles in the second mission...? (Which is as far as I've come due to time constraints).
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I started playing Wings of Dawn last week, I think there were multi-targeting swarm missiles in the second mission...? (Which is as far as I've come due to time constraints).
Those are 'untargeted heatseekers'
I think what people mean here are multi-target aspect missiles (where you lock on onto multiple targets at once, like in ace combat for example). Which is not possible ingame unless you use scripts.
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I started playing Wings of Dawn last week, I think there were multi-targeting swarm missiles in the second mission...? (Which is as far as I've come due to time constraints).
Those from Wings of Dawn were a pest to use, those random heat-seakers picked any target. When you were right behind a bomber wing and fired them at dual, they'd go after a random interceptor 1500 metres removed from you instead. Multi-lock missiles'd be sweet, but it's probably a lot of scripting.
Could be nice to have a very weak swarmer purely dedicated to intercept bombs (not bombers), but it'd upset balance probably.
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I don't normally chime in on fanspec or wishlists, but I was so pleased, enthralled, and moved by this campaign that I have to post something, and since glowing reviews have already been done more eloquently, I thought a wishlist would do the job just as well. partial and complete spoilers within:
1. I want Simms to live. I know, I'm sure that's been decided by the talented writers already, but seriously, the Simms character arc is officially the only visible hope spot in the entire saga, after the failure at Saturn. For me, at least, the Laporte/Simms relationship is the last thing that seems to give a sense of attachment to the Martian fleet. If she dies as a result of bad intel, I'll really have nobody left to root for/defend. It's saying something that, as I player, I can feel so strongly for a group of fictional characters, but as I said, it's so engrossing that I can't wait for R2.
2. I want more missions with a level fighter-to-fighter playing field. As committed at the team was to subverting the fs2-style wave after wave of cannon fodder, it did happen a few times that whole bomber squadrons with escort would be thrown at the player, only to be slaughtered. It's the missions that pitted us against a few talented fighters, or a heavy assault wing that didn't suck, that made me feel like a skilled pilot, instead of a gun turret. Maybe the last mission is still fresh in my mind (where the number of fighters is justified), but it seems like, for all that's been said about avoiding the silly waved attack pattern, it would be nice to see it even less than in R1.
3. I want another ride in that Uriel Sweeping down on those cruisers in my terrifying Gunship was exhilarating - war god indeed. gimme another run! which leads me to...
4. I want a victory My god, what a gut-wrenching finale, guys. It was an awesome piece of work..the sort of thing we as gamers can point to and say 'this is what games can do for storytelling that other mediums can't'. but that same uniqueness has me desperate for a real 'win'. I mean, come on. I don't see the Feds winning the war, but I do seem giving a few bloody noses! I understand the player agency problem, and that you guys have big plans, but if you're going to introduce ship and crew to us, then slaughter them before us, over and over, you've got to let us pull off a successful OP. I'm still reeling from that last one. I was pissed, I want blood. so give me blood.
5.I want the possibility of peace. This campaign has done a brilliant job of giving the players and characters a cause. But the rumblings of a secret project make me uneasy. Such a compelling war drama suffers in having a potential Deus Ex Machina in the wings, ready to fix the plot. I have no problem with a tragic ending to this saga, but if the 'secret plan' is for the Federation to begin anew, pack up and leave BSG-style (a series that's obviously had some influence on the writers ;)), it just wouldn't be right. I hope there can be peace between the two peoples of Earth, brothers that they are, even at a high cost. I just don't want that peace forced on them, or given to them. This is a human story...they need to fix it themselves.
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So aside from a little more player 'winning', none of my suggestions are gameplay related, as I think you guys have nearly nailed it, gameplay wise, and especially FRED-wise. so consider these suggestions a review in disguise, as no game has ever moved my like this one. these suggestions are also for me - I need to decompress after that campaign....right now I'm finding it hard to go back to the comparatively less sophisticated campaigns. So thanks for ruining freespace for me! :p I guess I'll just have to rename it 'Blue Planet' and pretend that the FS2 campaign is poorly executed fan-fiction for BP!
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1.I want Simms to live.
This I want the most of anything story-wise.
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In a similar vein to the multi-lock missiles, I think that the ability to retain missile lock on targets you are not actually facing would be an excellent feature.
Also, I would like more player noticeable influences that arise from the prescence of an AWACS ship. Maybe longer missile lock ranges, the aforementioned lock retention or similar. I know that they do a suprising amount behind the scences, but very little of that is noticeable from the cockpit and any mission with them feels less "Oh look what a valuable strategic resource" and more "Oh look another defenseless piece of debris to add to the escort list"
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In a similar vein to the multi-lock missiles, I think that the ability to retain missile lock on targets you are not actually facing would be an excellent feature.
Also, I would like more player noticeable influences that arise from the prescence of an AWACS ship. Maybe longer missile lock ranges, the aforementioned lock retention or similar. I know that they do a suprising amount behind the scences, but very little of that is noticeable from the cockpit and any mission with them feels less "Oh look what a valuable strategic resource" and more "Oh look another defenseless piece of debris to add to the escort list"
Unfortunately what you're talking about would require significant code changes. While R2 will be running on a probably pre-final 3.6.13 build, I doubt we'll be able to do something as complex as AWACS modifiers for fundamental gameplay mechanics.
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that would be a SERIOUS gameplay change. i don't think i would want that. MAYBE for one paticular missile that is intended to have a high off-boresight engagement capability. even then i think it should be limited and not a track everywhere kind of thing.
as for the aspect lock on multiple targets, that sounds like something that would be cumbersome to set up (as in the shot, not implement into the game) and couldn't be done in a dogfight. that means it would really only be useful for incoming formations, where shoot-cycle-shoot isn't hard at all the way it is. the only thing you don't get is the "cool factor" of a multiple launch.
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Those from Wings of Dawn were a pest to use, those random heat-seakers picked any target. When you were right behind a bomber wing and fired them at dual, they'd go after a random interceptor 1500 metres removed from you instead.
So hey, I know that you are a big fan of BP and all (With 99% of your posts being in this thread) but if you got complaints or something about WoD. Could you at least bother to post them in the release thread? :blah:
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well it was relevant to the discussion going on here...
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I wanna know what's project MORPHEUS, but I guess that will be revealed anyway.
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Now I have to look that up again, I can't remember reading about it. :nervous:
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Now I have to look that up again, I can't remember reading about it. :nervous:
Check the techroom entries on the Vishnans.
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Oh right, it only mentions the name.
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it's mentioned in the "conversations from WiH" as well. It has to do with the [REDACTED].
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It all makes sense now. :P
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Those from Wings of Dawn were a pest to use, those random heat-seakers picked any target. When you were right behind a bomber wing and fired them at dual, they'd go after a random interceptor 1500 metres removed from you instead.
So hey, I know that you are a big fan of BP and all (With 99% of your posts being in this thread) but if you got complaints or something about WoD. Could you at least bother to post them in the release thread? :blah:
Not a complaint, just an observation. I saw someone had already made the comment. I'll give a more thorough review at a later time then, it's one of the few points of criticism (not a complaint), but it was valid here I thought.
In a similar vein to the multi-lock missiles, I think that the ability to retain missile lock on targets you are not actually facing would be an excellent feature.
Also, I would like more player noticeable influences that arise from the prescence of an AWACS ship. Maybe longer missile lock ranges, the aforementioned lock retention or similar. I know that they do a suprising amount behind the scences, but very little of that is noticeable from the cockpit and any mission with them feels less "Oh look what a valuable strategic resource" and more "Oh look another defenseless piece of debris to add to the escort list"
I guess it can however be faked by making a second version of an excisting missile which is equiped on AWAC missions. But that's not completely the same.
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I know it probably should exist out there, but I haven't played any mods with it so far, but what about bomber (or fighter)-mounted beams? Heavily nerfed of course. Perhaps only damaging shields, or only hull... something like that. It just seems something that would be one of the next steps of GTVA (or shivan) development.
Of course very sparingly used, but imagine a superbomber with an AAA-turret (not nearly as strong as capship beams of course) mounted on it's back... Oh, the nightmares it could cause...
Just some idea...
Concerning story and mission design you are of course knowing what you are doing, I think we can all expect outstanding mindblowing stuff again.
So all I really want is that it won't take too long I guess. But that's a given I think.
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Wings of Dawn has some awesome fighterbeams if you want to go check them out.
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Not so awsome if you fly as a Cordi against the Hertak.... made me feel like a flipper ball.
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From AOA upto WIH part 1 i have to give you guys a BIG thumbs up. You carried the tory over from the previous installment to this one beautifully and the action flow is amazing. It really pulls a gamer into the storyline and makes you feel like you're part of the action and not just playing thru the game.
I seriously want to know what the hell those schematics that were given to neomi are for????? :hopping: . Plus the introduction of battleship and fighter cohesion in dealing with enemies was absolutely genius and was a cool departure from flying out there zapping battleships and then warping out again. One thing i have to gripe about is that with all the experience the vasudans have had dealing with the GTA and there "special brand of intelligence work" you seriously can't tell me that they smelt a rat when the Ubuntu elder was assasinated. The vasudan destroyers sensors couldn't pick up something that told them that the UEF was bushwacked???
Plus i SERIOUSLY want to fly a Uriel or the Durga...me wantie kill TEV battleships..plus the gaus cannon is totally WICKED MAN ;7
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You do fly an Uriel. What I want to pilot is the damn Naryana! :)
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you can in one of the ones after you capture the agincourt
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you can in one of the ones after you capture the agincourt
:confused:
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you can in one of the ones after you capture the agincourt
:confused:
I think he means a Nyx/Atalanta.
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the first mission against the Nyx i got totally p0wnzord. I wanted to fly it right then..maybe a mission similar to the stolen dragon in FS1?
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the first mission against the Nyx i got totally p0wnzord. I wanted to fly it right then..maybe a mission similar to the stolen dragon in FS1?
You can fly it in m10, Aristeia.
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you can in one of the ones after you capture the agincourt
:confused:
I think he means a Nyx/Atalanta.
woops. yeah i was thinking of nyx :nervous:
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you can in one of the ones after you capture the agincourt
:confused:
I think he means a Nyx/Atalanta.
woops. yeah i was thinking of nyx :nervous:
Axem was making hybrid ships in FRED. Perhaps we could create the dreaded NYXAYANA
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Seconding the idea of beam bombers. What if the GTVA took a note on the UEF artillery frigates and decided to give their deadliest weapon a more mobile, if slightly more vulnerable, platform? It kind of breaks with the Threat Exigency Initiative's requisites, though...
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IMO fighter/bomber mounted beams would either have to be drastically weaker or a 1-shot kindof deal to be realistic/believable.
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Having some experiance with fighterbeams mainly from playing The Babylon Project I think it shouldn't be available for fighters. It's just way too easy to hit with them, since they hit exactly were you point them without any travel time.
Now you can make them harder to use by giving them warmup time like DoS and WoD did, but that still leaves them too powerfull in player hands if you ask me. And I don't even want to know what Furys AI can do with such a weapon.
Nope, AAA turrets on bombers okay, but no main weapon beams for fighters and bombers please. At least not in WiH2, maybe in BP3 if done well and even than only very sparingly.
It might be interresting to have a non-damage targeting laser for Subspace missiles though....
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could be nice, but why bother with a target laser when you have tag missiles?
Also, If we are talking about non lethal gadgets, I wonder if the SCP engine could support a tractor/push beam or a grapling hook?
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i think a target laser would be infinitely easier to use than the missiles. a "painting laser" or something like that would be even cooler. instantaneous, continuous beam that you would have to hold on target for a short period of time. (VERY short, or it wouldn't be useful against fighters. maybe the time could scale with target size?)
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So you're saying you'd try using Subspace missile strikes on fighters?
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If our lore were ever to provide an opportunity for it, both SSM strikes on fighters and local SSMs against fighters are something we could do.
The latter could be particularly fun, especially on warships; they could fire SSMs into subspace that would then emerge near your fighter.
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could be nice, but why bother with a target laser when you have tag missiles?
Because tag missiles are pretty much fire and forget. With a laser you could require the player to keep on target untill the missile hits, or it goes astray.
Besides wasn't that the way subspace missiles were supposed to work originally? After all there was the targeting laser in stock FS2 which would show the text "artillary firing" when hitting something.
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If our lore were ever to provide an opportunity for it, both SSM strikes on fighters and local SSMs against fighters are something we could do.
The latter could be particularly fun, especially on warships; they could fire SSMs into subspace that would then emerge near your fighter.
Tactical subspace Slammers?
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IMO fighter/bomber mounted beams would either have to be drastically weaker or a 1-shot kindof deal to be realistic/believable.
Minelayers with mini-mjolnirs. :P
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So you're saying you'd try using Subspace missile strikes on fighters?
doesn't have to be subspace, it could be ordinary turrets like with the tag missiles in retail. being able to direct a frigate's railgun to hit a fighter/bomber would be pretty awsome :)
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Something else I'd like to see. The GTVA using technology to pull ships out of subspace (or to prevent them from entering subspace). I have a cool concept for that somewhere, involving a Fenris and a field-rigged refit replacing the front section with a dome-cut-in-half-like construct housing a coil and spinning components to create a subspace field. It selectively disrupts subspace activity within a certain range, preventing reinforcements and keeping ships right where they are to prevent them from escaping an attack. I'll try and find said concept, flesh it out and show it, if there is an interest for it, it sure is nice to keep the AWACS from becoming a Mary Sue.
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An FS version of the Interdictor? Sounds cool. :yes:
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We actually had that in mid-production builds of the campaign, using modified intrasystem gates and based on the canonical effect of the Knossos portal on intrasystem jumps. It may turn up again.
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What I'd like to see are fighter or capital ship mounted missile/torpedo weapons which are bomb-pumped laser warheads, for the GTVA of course.
Just because that'd be absolutely awesome to see.
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Flashbang bombs, designed to blind intercepting pilots. (Rather long explosion/flare time, and make luminance >9000)
:P
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Flashbang bombs, designed to blind intercepting pilots. (Rather long explosion/flare time, and make luminance >9000)
:P
We...could...they'd only work on players, but...
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oh my god no
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Weren't you already doing that? :P
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an idea might be the possibility of piloting a scimitar in a covert action against the GEF...
I might add that I would appreciate the complete destruction of the GEF and a dogfight with that leader of theirs, sergei something...
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Something else I'd like to see. The GTVA using technology to pull ships out of subspace (or to prevent them from entering subspace). I have a cool concept for that somewhere, involving a Fenris and a field-rigged refit replacing the front section with a dome-cut-in-half-like construct housing a coil and spinning components to create a subspace field. It selectively disrupts subspace activity within a certain range, preventing reinforcements and keeping ships right where they are to prevent them from escaping an attack. I'll try and find said concept, flesh it out and show it, if there is an interest for it, it sure is nice to keep the AWACS from becoming a Mary Sue.
the pulling of ships from subspace sounds familiar; i think i saw it on an episode of stargate universe. But if the UEF could replicate this that would mean that GTA ships couldn't warp to Earth (they have to trudge there the old fashioned way.
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Flashbang bombs, designed to blind intercepting pilots. (Rather long explosion/flare time, and make luminance >9000)
We...could...they'd only work on players, but...
How about scrambling targeting data for the duration of the flash then? Unless if that doesn't work on the AI either...
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Flashbang bombs, designed to blind intercepting pilots. (Rather long explosion/flare time, and make luminance >9000)
We...could...they'd only work on players, but...
How about scrambling targeting data for the duration of the flash then? Unless if that doesn't work on the AI either...
EMP already does that (randomly reassigns AI targets.) And the AI doesn't have to gain aspect lock.
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The Computer is a Cheating Bastard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheComputerIsACheatingBastard)
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Hey, do you guize know what Dump and Burn is?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_dumping
This would look amazing coming from the UEF's super awesome interceptor as a sort of 'Super Burner' that takes up all of your AB fuel but sends you FLYING at about 500 mps.
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It doesn't speed you up... it's just a lightshow....
But (apart from overlooking the fact that it wouldn't work in space due to the lack of air) it might cause damage to ships flying directly behind you.
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I always liked the retail missions, where you fly around in some captured fighter, doing recon deep in enemy space. Would be nice to see something like that in WiH - maybe a little mission to the jovian moons, extracting some spy from the other side.
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Ugh, just so long as I don't have to see/hear "keep your distance, pilots!" over and over. Either my stealthy/commandeered fighter is convincing, or its not.
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Hey, do you guize know what Dump and Burn is?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_dumping
This would look amazing coming from the UEF's super awesome interceptor as a sort of 'Super Burner' that takes up all of your AB fuel but sends you FLYING at about 500 mps.
Eh, I could never take it seriously after being a citizen of the country that's currently retiring the most famous aircraft to have performed the dump'n burn for real. :D
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Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't really get much of a speed boost from this...
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If we're thinking about the same thing, I'd say you're right.
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The point isn't to dump and burn like IRL, and I doubt that FS fuel even works like that. It's to get a huge speed boost with spectacular visuals.
Maybe ~200ms-1 with purple burner trails and moving fins in the back.
Oh, right.... :P
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It doesn't speed you up... it's just a lightshow....
But (apart from overlooking the fact that it wouldn't work in space due to the lack of air) it might cause damage to ships flying directly behind you.
That sounds a lot like flamethrowers in space.
:yes:
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dilmah, what aircraft are you referring to?
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Ugh, just so long as I don't have to see/hear "keep your distance, pilots!" over and over. Either my stealthy/commandeered fighter is convincing, or its not.
That's the nice thing when you have terran vs terran - a quick scan wouldn't show anything suspicious on a stolen fighter, so there would be no need to keep distance to everything else (aside from things that the average GTVA pilot wouldn't fly near, of course).
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Auroras with their advanced sensor might be an issue though....
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Well only if they have some reason to use it on you.
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Well only if they have some reason to use it on you.
Odds are good they don't need a reason, they're just given standing orders to check everyone out.
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Auroras with their advanced sensor might be an issue though....
Maybe, but what would they detect on a scan, really? A terran fighter with a human pilot in it. Major repairs on the hull probably, a bit makeshift, but who knows what the poor fellow has gone through.
The real problem for this kind of mission would be the IFF, because you'd need to imitate some real unit (preferably one that was shot down, but is listed as MIA). That and chit-chat between pilots, 'cause whoever's infiltrating wouldn't really know the internal stuff on "his" base-ship.
So, in the end it would be best to stay clear of enemy fighters, but there would be no need for 2 kilometers between you and them just because they would scan you.
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That and chit-chat between pilots, 'cause whoever's infiltrating wouldn't really know the internal stuff on "his" base-ship.
Ooh, more interactive conversation sequences. :D
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that was an interesting change of pace, but i wouldn't want it to become regular.
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that was an interesting change of pace, but i wouldn't want it to become regular.
Although it would add some welcome freshness to the ol' "scan everything/every subsystem" mission...
(Try the one in SGWP2)
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(Try the one in SGWP2)
I honestly have no memory of such a mission in SGWP2, possibly because the beamspam hit my brain.
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dilmah, what aircraft are you referring to?
The Pig, of course! :D
It's really a shame that we haven't found a more suitable replacement for the F-111 over this end of the pond.
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The real problem for this kind of mission would be the IFF, because you'd need to imitate some real unit (preferably one that was shot down, but is listed as MIA).
This is exactly what I was thinking about. If there is any fighter that could detect a faked IFF signal or altered IDs or somesuch, it's the Aurora.
If they send in the captured fighter with it's real ID, that wouldn't be a matter though.
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SPAH SAPPIN MAH SENTRY
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Hmm... sappin' Mjolnirs in preparation for an assault?
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I want to see a Raynor launching SSMs. (Not local SSMs.)
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Could be nice having a cat-and-mouse mission having to fly waypoints and hide in Saturns astroid belt while being hunted down by the GTVA's Admiral Steele, possibly guarding a vessel which tries to escape. Steele can mock or communicate with the hunted, to flesh out his personality, his style. Eventually reinforcements may arrive or the player is too far in the belt for the destroyer to still maneuvre.
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We need a mission where we fly a support ship. That way your wingmen can say "Missile banks depleted. Calling in Laporte!" :blah:
:D
(Your pronunciation of Laporte may vary, but I couldn't help but notice it rhymes with support the way I say it...)
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We need a mission where we fly a support ship. That way your wingmen can say "Missile banks depleted. Calling in Laporte!" :blah:
:D
(Your pronunciation of Laporte may vary, but I couldn't help but notice it rhymes with support the way I say it...)
:lol: :wakka: ;) :D
I'd pay to see that. Poor Noemi!
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I want to fly the Izra'il, Varaja-whatever, Durga, and Lao Tze.
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I want to fly the Izra'il, Varaja-whatever, Durga, and Lao Tze.
You forgot the Ainsarii.
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Honestly, I did. Isn't the Ainsarii a stealth fighter? Unless I get to actually use the stealth in a combat situation instead of just scanning things, I don't want to fly it.
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Honestly, I did. Isn't the Ainsarii a stealth fighter? Unless I get to actually use the stealth in a combat situation instead of just scanning things, I don't want to fly it.
The Ainsarii is not a stealth fighter in the model of the Pegasus. It's an agile, hard-hitting assassin. In our current model, hostile ships will lose lock on you if you don't fire for five seconds (though this is subject to playtesting), though of course an Aurora or Charybdis can make your life very difficult.
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Honestly, I did. Isn't the Ainsarii a stealth fighter? Unless I get to actually use the stealth in a combat situation instead of just scanning things, I don't want to fly it.
The Ainsarii is not a stealth fighter in the model of the Pegasus. It's an agile, hard-hitting assassin. In our current model, hostile ships will lose lock on you if you don't fire for five seconds (though this is subject to playtesting), though of course an Aurora or Charybdis can make your life very difficult.
That sounds unbelievably awesome. Of course I want to fly the Ainsarii, what the hell was I thinking?
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I thought the Izra'il was the stealth fighter.
Time to check the Tech Room.
Also, will you be sticking to good JudeoChristian/Hindu entities to name new UEF ships?
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Honestly, I did. Isn't the Ainsarii a stealth fighter? Unless I get to actually use the stealth in a combat situation instead of just scanning things, I don't want to fly it.
hostile ships will lose lock on you
I thought AIs didn't need aspect lock in the first place. You mean targeting, or aspect lock?
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Honestly, I did. Isn't the Ainsarii a stealth fighter? Unless I get to actually use the stealth in a combat situation instead of just scanning things, I don't want to fly it.
hostile ships will lose lock on you
I thought AIs didn't need aspect lock in the first place. You mean targeting, or aspect lock?
Targeting, i.e. sensor lock, though the AI is actually unable to fire any aspect-seeking weapon at a ship under stealth even when it has detected you - so in a sense it does respect the need for aspect lock in this case.
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What I'd love to see is another epic BoE style mission like Delenda Est.
In generall just proceed as you started. Then it's going to be an excellent campaign. :)
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Also, will you be sticking to good JudeoChristian/Hindu entities to name new UEF ships?
Um.... like Churchil, Nelson and Ironhide?
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Just because we have the Uriel and Izra'il doesn't imply there's a theme there. Plenty of the fighters have names coming from different sources.
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"Lao Tze", for instance, is not of Hindu origin. ;)
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What I'd love to see is another epic BoE style mission like Delenda Est.
In generall just proceed as you started. Then it's going to be an excellent campaign. :)
Don't forget Aristeia.
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Actually, is aristeia the very much famed "forced ejection" mission that was to be featured in war in heaven, only somewhat revised?
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Actually, is aristeia the very much famed "forced ejection" mission that was to be featured in war in heaven, only somewhat revised?
No. Forced Ejection took place during the portion of the story chronology now covered in WiH R2. However the story has changed so very much since then that you shouldn't expect to see the UEF attempting to push the GTVA out of the node in the manner depicted in that mission.
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Got it!
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What do I want in the rest of the WIH campaign? Well... in no particular order..
1) GTVA capture of strategic UEF reserves of smug, leading to UEF soldiers suffering crucial shortages of self-absorption, righteousness, and arrogance.
2) Included framerate optimization guide. I dunno what settings you guys are using, but I have to dial it waaaay down from AoA's levels to get >10 FPS in the big fights, which ruins the eyecandy. And makes me die a lot.
3) Total UEF destruction. Carpetnuking Earth, dismantling their bizarre culture, or just unilateral surrender. Whatever, I'm easy, as long as they cease their whining. My desperate, desperate fear is that Laporte will succeed, destroying the GTVA, and all of humanity will whinge to the incredible extent that the earthers do.
4) Samuel "Daddy Issues" Bei as the main character. I know his plot arc got wrapped up nicely in AoA, but I was just getting used to being in his boots.
5) The psychic uberbeings choose a much more sympathetic avatar. I thought Sam Bei was goofy...
6) Less Simms/Laporte relationship, more secondary character banter. The trip to Mars was awesome writing that made a solid effort towards reversing my attitude towards the UEF characters. Apart from that I was genuinely astounded by the characterization of the UEF. No human faction I have ever read about in science fiction has ever seemed more alien and more difficult to empathize with.
7) GTVA news broadcasts. Somebody, somewhere needs to get on a space winnebago, cruise through Sol and shout "OF COURSE THEY'RE SHOOTING YOUR TRANSPORTS YOU MORONS, THEY'RE ARMED AND NOT SURRENDERING!" or "Maybe you forgot but the Shivans burned the Vasudan homeworld to ash, so... them's the stakes."
8) Fewer plot points built on a foundation of entire civilizations with poor communication skills, really... somehow the UEF characters know all the GTVA military history, but ignored or disregarded the enormous loss of life in the 1st and 2nd shivan wars when in the "omg we lost a few thousand mans ;_;" phase.
9) More plausible divergent cultural evolution. The UEF has only had about two generations to evolve away from its GTA roots and has managed to do so to an almost farcical extent. There has to exist a segment of the population who identifies with the GTA more than the UEF simply because they were born and raised in a time when the GTA existed and was fighting the Vasudans. There have to be even more people who bought into the Ubuntu philosophy in name only, and have history books detailing the GTA's tenure as government-of-choice in a time of threat. Sure, there's Jupiter Hippies and Mars Hippies, but nobody ever said "Screw your hippie nonsense we're making our own miniGTA out here in the asteroid belt losers"? Wouldn't the post-Lucifer political centrifuge have allowed such conservative elements to build their own civilization somewhere, and then run crying into the arms of the GTVA shouting "THANK GOD YOU'RE FINALLY HERE"?
10) GTVA apologists / UEF surrender monkeys: Even though they spend the first half of the campaign going "mmmwaaahhhh we're loooosingggg shipppssss bawhawhawhaw" nobody even thinks "let's throw in with the Good Guys, as they have beams and beams are hella tight". Except for the Contrivance Terrorists, who are motivated by the opportunity to do comic-book acts of unmitigated villainy. Surely some aspects of the martial planetary governments would say "oh hey, the GTVAs are all about standing face to face with an unbeatable foe and jabbing it in the eye, we have like three wacko battle cries all about that, let's team up". Hell, the GTVA is an alliance! Surely it has clauses for things like degrees of membership and association that would allow cooperation and mutual strategic defense and resource sharing that wouldn't be so intolerable as to instantly force the martians and whatnot into the arms of the UEF.
11) More transparent jargon. I'd love to know what rolling vampires meant - something to do with swarm torpedoes? Military parlance is good for immersion, but only when I know what it means. For all I know the UEF response to Admiral Steele consists of deploying a bacon cheeseburger with fries support to Europa. GTVA pilots occasionally radioing in the middle of battle to comment on the dizzying array of UEF dialects and idioms would be nice too. "What the hell does desperta ferro even mean? We're not trying to be jokers - we actually just don't know!" and "How the heck do you reconcile the 'we die on our feet rah rah' battlecry with 'universal peace pass the reefer man'? You can't get more diametrically opposed!" "It's amazing that my entire squadron is from six different star systems and yet you guys all have crazy different dialects and we all speak the same way!"
12) More tutorial missions. In an epic moment of RTFM, I still have no idea how to reverse thrust or stuff like that, and a few training missions would help out with that. You guys have come up with an awe-inspiring set of story streamlining tools that make mandatory training like that skippable for the vets and non-noobs. An obstacle course you have to slalom around that can be skipped at any time by pressing alt-j or using the checkpoint system would go a long way towards helping me get used to the more in depth piloting and nonstandard controls. Plus, it seems like it's a much more important skill to master now that we're fighting GTF Facewrecker-class fighters so having a few stages presented in the story sequence to practice not dying would be handy as a prelude to the very difficult missions. There's functionality here that is almost totally undocumented and only hinted at in the techroom descrips that would really shine if brought to the forefront. I also think this would help with pacing a bit.
13) Please don't force me to fly the Kentauroi anymore. It's like a paper airplane soaked in gasoline. I'd like at least to be able to choose the Uhlan instead. :( I'm one of the rare breed of players who avoids interceptors like the plague.... and, well, I'd like the ability to avoid interceptors like the plague. At least get into a less intercepty interceptor.
14) Reserve the blue shockwave ring for only the strongest of detonations. It has always looked absurd to see a cluster of them from a torpedo volley; now with walls of torpedoes it becomes comical. The cyclops explosion is just as noticeable to the player (so s/he knows to get down to biz and start using B to find targets) and doesn't obscure beautiful capital ships or somesuch.
15) Consistent emotional responses from wingmen. "how can we kill that hecate, it r big" was an arresting moment of realism that brought me into the campaign and helped me get into character after seeing umpteen hojillion Sathanas. Big thumbs up! Now, fastforward to where the wardogs are assaulting a deimos, with a time limit, and have to kill its escort of GTF Fleshreapers and its turrets and its engines and avoid it's big ol' capital beams and do so in a time limit. And nobody even says "Wow this giant freakin' list doesn't even fit on my objectives marker haha!" I realize that the warhogs have massively awesome morale even though all of them die every mission I take them on, but still. I get that they're supposedly hardened veterans while the Navajas were green recruits, but... it is immediately obvious when entering the mission that they're all about to get vaporized by AAA and flak and octuple balor/harpoon spam. I think a few of them should admit this before getting blown to expanding clouds of smugness while I feverishly try and do everything myself in the last minutes.
16) Better anticapital AI. This is real pie in the sky - for some reason, ordering my fighters to disarm a deimos results in almost instantaneous total annihilation, while I can successfully engage on my own. I realize as a player it's because I'm a huge coward and hang about at maximum range plinking at the AAA and so forth but it still seems like my wingmen aren't using their weaponry effectively at all even when they are charging merrily down their gunbarrels.
17) Coarser story granularity. Text segments showing us the minutes of a tense meeting between GTVA diplomats and UEF stoners would be awesome. The GTVA is almost certainly pursing "carrot and stick" diplomacy; the UEFs point of view lets us live out the "stick" bit painfully. It would be nice to hear the GTVA diplomats laying out increasingly outlandish amounts of "carrot" while the UEF morons continuously say "mmmmnnnnahhhh we still think we're right because if we don't look at overwhelming physical evidence of immediate and constant shivan threat, we can pretend to ignore it." More seriously - this war story is currently highly claustrophobic. Trapped in the mind of an amoral lunatic like Laporte is a very bad place to be examining this engrossing conflict; occasionally observing other slices of it would make it much less of one woman's struggle to deal with her emerging identity as a young Shivan adult and much more a real war.
18) Lower key emotional content. Wing Commander III also portrayed a losing war against a superior enemy force, but ratcheted up the tension through body language, excellent acting and voice acting, and retreat after retreat. Mark Hamill is clearly unavailable and unfit to portray Laporte, but it is worth examining his performance nontheless. The stress is slowly increased, reflected in worse and worse discipline and fraying nerves. In WiH I feel like I am told of this same phenomenon but shown Laporte always being a loonie instead of evolving into one. Similarly, WC3 had withdrawal after withdrawal and retreat after retreat, while WIH has a bunch of rescues, rendezvouses, and insane suicide attacks. Both believable, but the WC3 method used implication to set the tone of the war; Laporte jumps from retreat to attack to rescue to rendezvous to raid to date with CO on the moon... there's less of a trend to imply inexorable defeat. Relatedly I strongly question the decision to tell about Steele's apocalyptic blitz instead of showing it. A montage of bombers and corvettes blowing away freighters and stations, to the HW2 planetkillers theme, would have allowed you to show that hyper important plot point instead of having a text box say "oh nose fifty nine other places just like the one you were at asploded".
19) And lastly... above all else I would love to see continued relentless commitment to stylized, highly cinematic and thoughtfully constructed universes and stories. I can't get enough of them, even if they are a little goofy in spots and a little rough in others. Thanks for the painstaking effort expended in creating AoA and WiH, and letting me play it and think about it. Its been awesome fun and a huge privelage.
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Avatar, I've only just got up to reading the point RE: Military Jargon. PM me the stuff you want clarified and I'll have it back to you in no time.
EDIT: Also, 12) The familiarisation flight in the Kent was there basically to give you a feel for the Kent, and also to educate you on reverse thrust, which if I recall, was mentioned by Simms in the sortie. I don't think a full on training mission would have been a practical part of the story the team wanted, since it starts with Laporte as a first tourist rather than an Offcut at the Operational Conversion Unit.
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The UEF has only had about two generations to evolve away from its GTA roots and has managed to do so to an almost farcical extent.
Really? The UEF has been in power in Sol far longer than the GTA was. Compare American in 1950 to the year 2000, or perhaps more fittingly pre-Communist Russia to Russia 50 years later, and you'll see that this kind of change does happen.
The GTA 'roots' were never really there, given how short-lived the GTA was. In particular we looked at some reference material in the FreeSpace Bible that painted the GTA as more of a NATO than a true nation, a bit deprived of sociopolitical soft power.
Lastly, there's an explicit statement in the FreeSpace 2 techroom entry on Earth that radical social change would have had to have occurred in Sol. I think we're on solid ground there.
There has to exist a segment of the population who identifies with the GTA more than the UEF simply because they were born and raised in a time when the GTA existed and was fighting the Vasudans.
Hrm. Did you read the techroom entries? Admiral Calder was, I believe, explicitly stated to have been an officer under the GTA, though I could be misremembering.
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There certainly are at least some GTVA sympathisers in the UEF.
Either that or the GTVI must have super great spys to get an agent with a bomb on board an Elders ship, or get someone on board of the wargods AWACS....
After finally getting through the last mission on difficulty two I found out that I dearly wish for the FREDers to stop disbling half the commands I can give to my wingmates.
Seriously.... The enemy is overcharging their beams resulting in an insta-kill and the only one who can be bothered to do something against it is Laporte? And you can't even order the other fighters to help you take out those beams!
After several attempts I was screaming bloody murder at whoever got that bright idea....
I don't mind a challenge, but having to take out 8 beam cannons all alone in 60 seconds while under constant bombardment from at the very least three AAA beams, two FLAK, several blobs and two pyranhia launchers at all times is just way too much. On very easy I didn't really notice how ****ed up that part is, but now that I played it on easy I really don't want to know how it plays on higher difficulty.
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There certainly are at least some GTVA sympathisers in the UEF.
Either that or the GTVI must have super great spys to get an agent with a bomb on board an Elders ship, or get someone on board of the wargods AWACS....
After finally getting through the last mission on difficulty two I found out that I dearly wish for the FREDers to stop disbling half the commands I can give to my wingmates.
Seriously.... The enemy is overcharging their beams resulting in an insta-kill and the only one who can be bothered to do something against it is Laporte? And you can't even order the other fighters to help you take out those beams!
We removed those disarm orders intentionally, because if you issue them, the entire mission breaks. All friendly ships will stop targeting the corvettes.
The way the FreeSpace Open engine handles disarm orders is extremely unpleasant. You'd be better off using 'destroy target subsystem'.
Furthermore your wingmen are issued orders to attack the beam cannons on their own.
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Then I guess something must be broken on my end, because non of the fighters was trying to take out those beams. Only the Karunas were shooting their torpedoes at the beams, but for some reason did only negligible damage to them (special mission based anti-bomb armor for the turrets would be my guess).
You'd be better off using 'destroy target subsystem'.
That is actually the very command I wanted to use, but couldn't because it's deactivated.
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Seriously? Did you have the turret targeted?
Beta wing at least has destroy subsystem enabled.
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What do I want in the rest of the WIH campaign? Well... in no particular order..
It's about time! :lol:
Just a couple things:
12) More tutorial missions. In an epic moment of RTFM, I still have no idea how to reverse thrust or stuff like that, and a few training missions would help out with that.
Yeah, there's really no way to know that the decelerate key is also reverse thrust. A directive keypress in Intervention might do the trick.
13) Please don't force me to fly the Kentauroi anymore. It's like a paper airplane soaked in gasoline. I'd like at least to be able to choose the Uhlan instead.
Placebo effect? The Uhlan (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/UEF_Uhlan#Statistics) isn't strictly tougher than the Kentauroi (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/UEF_Kentauroi#Statistics).
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What do I want in the rest of the WIH campaign? Well... in no particular order..
It's about time! :lol:
Just a couple things:
12) More tutorial missions. In an epic moment of RTFM, I still have no idea how to reverse thrust or stuff like that, and a few training missions would help out with that.
Yeah, there's really no way to know that the decelerate key is also reverse thrust. A directive keypress in Intervention might do the trick.
Well, we did our best to make it explicit: Simms says "You've even got reverse afterburners; put the throttle in reverse and kick the burners to try them out.".
13) Please don't force me to fly the Kentauroi anymore. It's like a paper airplane soaked in gasoline. I'd like at least to be able to choose the Uhlan instead.
Placebo effect? The Uhlan (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/UEF_Uhlan#Statistics) isn't strictly tougher than the Kentauroi (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/UEF_Kentauroi#Statistics).
[/quote]
Indeed, the Kent has comparable hitpoints to the Uhlan. Methinks it's placebo.
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I may be mistaken, but I got the feeling that the Uhlan recharges it's shields faster, making it a bit more survivable when ignoring the Kents better chances to dodge incoming fire.
Seriously? Did you have the turret targeted?
No... I never target a turret I try to shoot... why would I?
Joking aside:
After failing the fourth time I just cheated myself invulnerable, ignored everything else and just observed the situation and no fighter, including beta wing, shot at either of the corvettes, though to be fair gamma wing was alread wiped out, so I can't say what they would have done.
On very easy someone must have shot at the turrets, since I only had to destroy six of them, but on easy only the Karunas attacked the turrets (rather ineffectively). Maybe Beta was too busy with dodging incoming fire or something, but they didn't attack, much less destroy, any of the beam turrets.
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Wow. I suppose it is the placebo effect. Ahh well. It MIGHT have something to do with my first Uhlan experiences being flying against pilots that were mostly ignoring me, and my first Kent experience being "Get blown up four times by super Erinyes focusing on me". That tends to make one feel frail.
Oh. When Simms said "put the throttle in reverse", I thought she meant something a lot like the 'go to full speed' command, some single keystroke that reversed speed. I didn't know. "start braking" maybe? Though that might imply just hitting backspace... I dunno man. I think "the decelerate key is reverse thrust" would have clarified it nicely.
Hmmm. I had imagined the GTA existing in some respect for years, possibly decades before the Vasudan war, but imagination != canon. Wouldn't the GTVA's descent from the GTA's loose union make it more appealing to the federation states? Especially the ones that aren't targeted because of their "dangerous" Ubuntu philosophy?
The comparison between pre and post communist revolution Russia is very apt indeed, but I change my question to "so where's all the White Solarians?". Where's Radio Free Sol at? I -can- accept all of Earth getting caught up in this idealogical movement, but... hmm. I suppose Mars and Jupiter got flooded with the anti-Ubuntu immigrants, which is why their characters are initially abrasive towards Laporte. I find it hard to accept that the entire Solar civilization is behind this war overtly, and really want to see legitimate political figures and movements that don't support resisting the Alliance. Whole asteroid habitats or moon colonies declaring their independence from the federation and signing pacts of membership in the GTVA, that sort of thing. Similarly I wonder where the UEF-sympathetic members of the GTVA are, though honestly a little less so because I think we spend enough time with their brand of navel-gazing in WIH1. The UEF is so provincial and insular that Laporte, who sympathizes with the GTVA rather openly, doesn't even think that there might be something as beautiful as Luna City. Though maybe she was referring to the feeling of peace and security in Sol, somewhere else in Terran-Vasudan space, like all the parts of Vasudan space that didn't get hit by post-Capella stress. The less of that level of self-absorption, the better I say.
I don't think a full on training mission would have been a practical part of the story the team wanted, since it starts with Laporte as a first tourist rather than an Offcut at the Operational Conversion Unit.
First what now? Kidding aside; I understand but disagree. After all, this is a "what does X internet hobo want from the campaign" thread. I seem to recall a few "get some simulator time in" comments in mission briefings that left me saying "I'M TRYING MAN I'M TRYING" out loud to my computer screen. If I had to sortie an argument for hand-holding in future WiH missions... well, if you're going to present a story composed of a series of impossihard missions with lots and lots of simultaneous objectives, it would be nice if you prepared the player for it subtly or overtly beyond merely saying "this is going to be hard". I failed Intervention a number of times simply because I was concentrating on flying instead of reading the text; similarly I found the level of stuff I had to do in the leadup to the Carthage missions was bananas and really wished I'd had a level that was about reversing course and doing the fly one way point another trick. I certainly appreciate and understand that making a level to handhold the noobs through some of these features is about as interesting as counting grains of sand, but I have to point out that it could be of some practicality to do so. Moving some dialogue out of giant text screens and into the mission while this goes on would help bring out the secondary wingmen (if they're around) and allow for character advancement. It would also help give a sense of time elapsed. If you have two pitched battle missions one after the other separated by a time of weeks or months, no matter how much I understand text describing that I'll still feel like battle two is happening on the next day because I didn't get to experience anything else. I mean not to argue for some fluff mission whenever time is passing, merely to point out that there are many practical roles for downtime or low-stress missions in a war story. A Perfect Moment being a good example.
As a further aside: How come the Carthage didn't launch successive trebuchet strikes on the UEF beam jammer, and then vaporize everyone with beam fire? I dunno how much tougher the UEF electronic warfare vessel is than the GTVA equivelants, but even so there were tons and tons and tons of heavy fighters that could have TAGed it or stood off at five KM salvoing trebs then subspaced back to the Carthage for rearm while the entire Carthage battlegroup opened the range and emptied its long range missile inventory into the beam jammer. I found myself imagining the scene in the credits where the Imperieuse and the Carthage withdraw involving Steele executing Carthage's CO for hilarious incompetence and her bridge crew for not mutinying at their insanely bad battle plan.
Though Steele might be going after GTVA high command next for allowing the war to go this crazily. Half the GTVA fleet includes at least a dozen Hecates plus escort and fighter wings, and god knows how many Orions and Titans and Raynors and lions and tigers and bears. Why not just sit at the gate, building up an unstoppable fleet of destroyers, and subspace it into Earth orbit? Check and mate; the GTVA could send about a dozen AWACs to jam short and long range communications and torpedo lock. Earth can't resist with its now-isolated military, Mars and Jupiter are too weak to break the resulting blockade, Tevs land on Earth and resupply their force from there, and start packing away the religious dictatorship. In eighteen months time, opportunistic Martian and Jovian traders reopen ties with GTVA controlled Earth and begin legitimizing that regime. Earth's beginning to stabilize around its new government, Sam Bei sees that a GTVA victory has been achieved with minimal loss of life mostly due to stubborn UEF resistance, and brings his immense and strategically valuable knowledge of the shivans and vishnans to the GTVA in exchange for clemency to all GTVA defectors to the UEF side. The now-unified Terrans share The Plot (as learned from the Bei family) with the Vasudans, make a huge PR victory out of releasing the Elders from confinement to continue their quantum wave juju under GTVA auspices in order to further understand and avoid the Shivan threat... and they all lived happily ever after?
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I found myself imagining the scene in the credits where the Imperieuse and the Carthage withdraw involving Steele executing Carthage's CO for hilarious incompetence and her bridge crew for not mutinying at their insanely bad battle plan.
Except, you know, the whole thing was a part of his plan to catch the attacking force too deep for them to withdraw.
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Hmmm. I had imagined the GTA existing in some respect for years, possibly decades before the Vasudan war, but imagination != canon. Wouldn't the GTVA's descent from the GTA's loose union make it more appealing to the federation states? Especially the ones that aren't targeted because of their "dangerous" Ubuntu philosophy?
The comparison between pre and post communist revolution Russia is very apt indeed, but I change my question to "so where's all the White Solarians?". Where's Radio Free Sol at? I -can- accept all of Earth getting caught up in this idealogical movement, but... hmm. I suppose Mars and Jupiter got flooded with the anti-Ubuntu immigrants, which is why their characters are initially abrasive towards Laporte. I find it hard to accept that the entire Solar civilization is behind this war overtly, and really want to see legitimate political figures and movements that don't support resisting the Alliance.
Who says they are? You can count on the fact that the war is a divisive issue. But given that the UEF has existed longer than the GTA ever did in Sol, that most of the human species canonically exists in Sol, and that the GTVA attacked without provocation - simple human psychology is going to make the UEF population indignant. Who are these colonial upstarts attacking the hub of human civilization without provocation or warning?
Whole asteroid habitats or moon colonies declaring their independence from the federation and signing pacts of membership in the GTVA, that sort of thing.
Again, though I'm sure some have (notice all those Gef asteroid habitats cooperating with the GTVA...?), would many people tied into the economically prosperous, massively populous UEF want to give up and defect to a small group of military-governed colonists who represent a small fraction of the human race? Especially after this humiliating surprise attack!
But the complaint seems a bit odd given that there's a subplot about a mole in the UEF feeding information to the GTVA. There are even hints! ;7
Similarly I wonder where the UEF-sympathetic members of the GTVA are
Well there was a whole subplot with someone in the GTVA passing info to the UEF too, mind.
The UEF is so provincial and insular that Laporte, who sympathizes with the GTVA rather openly, doesn't even think that there might be something as beautiful as Luna City. Though maybe she was referring to the feeling of peace and security in Sol, somewhere else in Terran-Vasudan space, like all the parts of Vasudan space that didn't get hit by post-Capella stress. The less of that level of self-absorption, the better I say.
It may arguably be self-absorption, but again, given that the bulk of the human population and industrial/social/political base exists in Sol - by canon! - it's not unjustified. It's like Rome having a war with the Cherokee Nations, only the Cherokee have assault rifles and a good reason. Also remember that Laporte is probably intimately familiar with the GTVA's history and culture, which is at the moment characterized by fear and a need for security rather than exploration and investment.
(And if I sound pro-UEF it's for the sake of balancing the scales, I'm happy to argue the other side).
a story composed of a series of impossihard missions with lots and lots of simultaneous objectives
Hey, this **** got heavily playtested. You may just need to turn it down a bit? We got a number of complaints that the missions were too easy and players didn't have to do anything, so we suspect we managed to land in the middle of the difficulty range.
I certainly appreciate and understand that making a level to handhold the noobs through some of these features is about as interesting as counting grains of sand, but I have to point out that it could be of some practicality to do so.
Well there is the Kentauroi Race mission in the techroom which fits the bill perfectly. Maybe we should have dropped it into the campaign.
Moving some dialogue out of giant text screens and into the mission while this goes on would help bring out the secondary wingmen (if they're around) and allow for character advancement.
Eek! No more room for messages in missions, too much as it was!
As a further aside: How come the Carthage didn't launch successive trebuchet strikes on the UEF beam jammer, and then vaporize everyone with beam fire? I dunno how much tougher the UEF electronic warfare vessel is than the GTVA equivelants, but even so there were tons and tons and tons of heavy fighters that could have TAGed it or stood off at five KM salvoing trebs then subspaced back to the Carthage for rearm while the entire Carthage battlegroup opened the range and emptied its long range missile inventory into the beam jammer. I found myself imagining the scene in the credits where the Imperieuse and the Carthage withdraw involving Steele executing Carthage's CO for hilarious incompetence and her bridge crew for not mutinying at their insanely bad battle plan.
Uh-huh, and then the Wargods pull out, the Imperieuse has nothing to kill and the whole trap fails. The Carthage was playing a role, remember?
Anyway, from the UEF side - since ECM in BP uses the Power of Plot, the Hanuman could probably have just jammed the seeker heads of the incoming warheads. 'Contrived!' you may call, but in fact WiH R2 has capship-scale countermeasures which would do the trick perfectly. :cool: That'll likely help against those sorts of Trebuchet blizzards.
Though Steele might be going after GTVA high command next for allowing the war to go this crazily. Half the GTVA fleet includes at least a dozen Hecates plus escort and fighter wings, and god knows how many Orions and Titans and Raynors and lions and tigers and bears. Why not just sit at the gate, building up an unstoppable fleet of destroyers, and subspace it into Earth orbit? Check and mate; the GTVA could send about a dozen AWACs to jam short and long range communications and torpedo lock.
They can't support that kind of force in Sol (node throughput is not adequate to supply everyone on this side, and constantly rotating the ships back through the node for logistics would strain both the ships and the Delta Serpentis logistical tail. They're basically running at maximum population cap (in RTS terms) in Sol.
Most of all is the question I ask below - can the GTVA even take a hostile Sol? How is it going to occupy these planets in any meaningful way? Destroy them, sure, but occupy them productively? I don't know. It needs to force a surrender more than it needs to force, say, massive landings.
Earth can't resist with its now-isolated military, Mars and Jupiter are too weak to break the resulting blockade, Tevs land on Earth and resupply their force from there, and start packing away the religious dictatorship.
How, though? Where is the GTVA going to dig up enough troops to occupy a system that out-populates its entire population (in canon!)?
And hey, the UEF is neither religious nor a dictatorship. It's just got a somewhat permanent steering committee! ;)
In eighteen months time, opportunistic Martian and Jovian traders reopen ties with GTVA controlled Earth and begin legitimizing that regime. Earth's beginning to stabilize around its new government
Stabilize around a government that replaced a hugely economically successful 50-year-old juggernaught that has ruled Sol longer than the GTA ever did? I dunno, seems dicey.
Remember, people like governments that make them happy, safe, and rich. Sol has been all three, while the GTVA has had to turn itself into an anti-Shivan aegis at the cost of public support.
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Oops, and I forgot another reason the GTVA doesn't Zerg Sol with all its destroyers, which is the fact that it is stubbornly, almost paranoically committed to maintaining readiness in case the Shivans show up again. They want the bulk of their heavy hitters to be ready to come down on the first sign of trouble.
Plus it's in the GTVA's interests to drag things out (or at first they thought it would be). Break UEF morale, get a surrender, get solar system infrastructure intact.
See, we think about these things!
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I'm wondering if one of the UEF destroyers will meet it's faith, to empathise that the war's getting grim.
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Oops, and I forgot another reason the GTVA doesn't Zerg Sol with all its destroyers, which is the fact that it is stubbornly, almost paranoically committed to maintaining readiness in case the Shivans show up again. They want the bulk of their heavy hitters to be ready to come down on the first sign of trouble.
That would be interesting to look in on, actually - a meeting where GTVA top brass talked about how the war should have gone. Where their paranoia can be shown off, by having people say "look, a three month window is all I need to smash their mobile forces with a fleet made of BGs 5, 6, 8, 12, 16, and 19" and it's still denied due to the fear of Shivan incursion. As an added bonus, looking in on that would make it seem like both factions are being run by crazy people (which is apparently true), which would help the UEF's position. It'd also resonate with Laporte's "they lost something" comment.
I would think that a rapid assault would secure a lot of highly essential infrastructure - I'm thinking of the fuel refineries at neptune, the orbital shipyards and habitats - without requiring extensive occupation. Critical facilities on the surface could have dedicated Cruiser based orbital fire support backing up small defensive forces. Not every useful bit of infrastructure on Earth is going to be in an urban area, where your comments about population would be more relevant.
But the complaint seems a bit odd given that there's a subplot about a mole in the UEF feeding information to the GTVA. There are even hints!
I acknowledge there is some cloak and daggery stuff going on there, but what I was looking for was someone getting on television and publicly aligning with the alliance. The GTVA would almost assuredly be pushing, hard, for this wherever they had influence.
It's like Rome having a war with the Cherokee Nations
I'm pretty sure the Peloponnesian War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peloponnesian_War) is a somewhat better example, what with the threat/excuse of the Persians mirroring the threat of the Shivans. The two different cultural blocks clashing after a period of divergent evolution and reduced contact is similar as well. At the very least, I interpreted the UEF/GTVA conflict as much more like the Peloponnesian War :) and thus expected more publicly fluid relations between members of each coalition. I'd say Laporte and the UEF are too intensely focused on the militarism of the GTVA; the colonists almost certainly have pretty cities, peaceful towns, arts, music and love too. Which... I dunno. It still makes me feel that Laporte and the UEF are incredibly self absorbed and petty. A person died. A ship died. A city died. The stakes in the future of humanity are whole worlds. The Shivans have shown this, and the UEF are crying over papercuts. This makes the concealment of Bei and the Elders' reticence to discuss their contact with Vishnans and Shivans publicly into crimes against humanity. The sheer arrogance involved in keeping that information to themselves crosses the threshold of insanity. The entire species faces imminent and avoidable extinction, and the people who have scientific proof have kept it to themselves.
Stabilize around a government that replaced a hugely economically successful 50-year-old juggernaught that has ruled Sol longer than the GTA ever did? I dunno, seems dicey.
Remember, people like governments that make them happy, safe, and rich. Sol has been all three, while the GTVA has had to turn itself into an anti-Shivan aegis at the cost of public support.
In the blitzkrieg scenario, the GTVA can rightly point out that happy and rich and not safe might not be as good as safe. Furthermore, the shrewd decision would be to keep the positions and bureaucracy the same and change faces. Install puppets, so to speak. The Ubuntu leadership still organizes starship construction and allocates funds and so forth. That way, there is no "replacement", the UEF is ostensibly a member of the GTVA. Though I doubt they could find charismatic enough puppets to convince the Solarians that things are going more or less back to normal while contributing massive resources to the war effort. It would be possible for the GTVA to try, though, and potentially deliver. The more damage they do to the shipping and infrastructure in Sol with their long-term strategy, the less likely any replacement they present is going to satisfy people. A steamroller present the opportunity to visit as little disruption as possible... ah well. The GTVA is already committed to a very silly approach.
I'm serious though, it would be really wonderful to get a quick textbox describing one of the many meetings between GTVA and UEF diplomats, just to know what the current sticking points have become.
Hey, this **** got heavily playtested. You may just need to turn it down a bit? We got a number of complaints that the missions were too easy and players didn't have to do anything, so we suspect we managed to land in the middle of the difficulty range.
While I don't doubt this, you may wish to get less pro playtesters. I could do AoA on medium difficulty, but had to switch to very easy to finish WiH. Lategame missions are often prone to failure if Laporte doesn't get involved and do a ton of stuff, and with the aforementioned framerate issue it's really hard to deliver a badass performance at 9 FPS. (Edit: I am a moron and ran inferno debug and thought it would have similar framerate ahahaha I'm sorry) Then again oftentimes I'd try a mission, lose horribly three times, then try again and win with flying colors.
Also: My understanding was that the Carthage wasn't in on Steele's plan and thus was fighting genuinely. I retract my statements there :)
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The stakes in the future of humanity are whole worlds. The Shivans have shown this, and the UEF are crying over papercuts. This makes the concealment of Bei and the Elders' reticence to discuss their contact with Vishnans and Shivans publicly into crimes against humanity. The sheer arrogance involved in keeping that information to themselves crosses the threshold of insanity.
You forget that there is more than one viewpoint on the Shivans!
Some (almost asuredly including the Eldars and Admiral Byrne) beliefe that sooner or later the Shivans will wipe out the "destroyers". And the GTVA fits that label. They try to steer Humanity away from that path, so the Shivans will let them live.
So the UEF isn't fighting over some "papercuts", but over the very survival of the Human race.
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While I don't doubt this, you may wish to get less pro playtesters. I could do AoA on medium difficulty, but had to switch to very easy to finish WiH. Lategame missions are often prone to failure if Laporte doesn't get involved and do a ton of stuff, and with the aforementioned framerate issue it's really hard to deliver a badass performance at 9 FPS. Then again oftentimes I'd try a mission, lose horribly three times, then try again and win with flying colors.
We got Androgeos, who only plays on easy, to test this. Also, the fact that you need to go out and do stuff was a design goal; we didn't want to run into the 158 trap of self-playing missions.
I would think that a rapid assault would secure a lot of highly essential infrastructure - I'm thinking of the fuel refineries at neptune, the orbital shipyards and habitats - without requiring extensive occupation. Critical facilities on the surface could have dedicated Cruiser based orbital fire support backing up small defensive forces. Not every useful bit of infrastructure on Earth is going to be in an urban area, where your comments about population would be more relevant.
You are still talking about something that, in real world terms, would be equivalent of the US running a Blitz takeover of Europe. Could they hold critical infrastructure points using military force? Yes. Do they have a hope of effectively controlling what they hold? No. You are talking about a hostile force trying to occupy a planetary system that has a population of all the GTVA systems combined. And the fancy infrastructure that is the objective of this war won't help you if you don't have the people that make it all work.
The only hope the GTVA has is reaching a surrender, preferably negotiated, because an occupatuin by force just isn't practical.
I acknowledge there is some cloak and daggery stuff going on there, but what I was looking for was someone getting on television and publicly aligning with the alliance. The GTVA would almost assuredly be pushing, hard, for this wherever they had influence.
Who said that didn't happen? Just because Laporte doesn't see it, or the other characters don't mention it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
This makes the concealment of Bei and the Elders' reticence to discuss their contact with Vishnans and Shivans publicly into crimes against humanity. The sheer arrogance involved in keeping that information to themselves crosses the threshold of insanity.
The GTVA doesn't tell people about the Vishnans either. Because they fear that
People won't really react rationally when they get told that there's a second omnipotent species out there that in addition to being scarily advanced can also subvert entire ships' crews?
In the blitzkrieg scenario, the GTVA can rightly point out that happy and rich and not safe might not be as good as safe.
That's what they're trying to do. It won't work, because Earth WAS save, until SOMEONE reopened that jump node. Think about that for a minute.
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We got Androgeos, who only plays on easy, to test this. Also, the fact that you need to go out and do stuff was a design goal; we didn't want to run into the 158 trap of self-playing missions.
You definately succeded :lol: I just... I dunno. I'll have to meditate on it and try and come up with why I didn't have as much fun this time around as before.... I mean, AoA had just as failure prone missions with just as much running around like a chicken with its head cut off, but for some reason it didn't quite click with me.
And - your metaphor isn't quite complete. It's like the US running a blitz takeover of europe, when the US has a pressing, possibly immediate need for european resources and extremely powerful weapons with no fallout, and the europeans have almost no ability to intercept american deployments anywhere on the ground. What are UEF loyalists on the ground going to do with the orbital infrastructure under GTVA control? Lob ICBMs at it? Fly fighters up through the atmosphere and a curtain of antiaircraft fire to try and strike at it? Specialists and personnel can be bribed, abducted, or even just hired legitimately, or imported from the colonies if the earth folk want to be really truly stubborn. The GTVA could very easily reduce Earth to essentially 20th century technology with precision bombardment, commando strikes, and ruling orbit with an iron AAAf.
Who said that didn't happen? Just because Laporte doesn't see it, or the other characters don't mention it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Mmmmh... from a universe building point of view I totally agree. However, if it doesn't show up in tech room articles or the main story, and isn't implicit from other events, then it might not have happened from the point of view of a player. Restricting the POV to Laporte really curtails the ability to show interesting and relevant events like that. From the POV of someone playing the campaign... yeah, it didn't happen. It might have happened, but it might not have.
Anyone could have reopened the Sol jump node. There are two powers that have demonstrated that capability - the Shivans, who when last seen at the Solar jump node were gettin' ready to get crazy on Planet Earth - and the GTVA, who bad as they may be don't actually go around burning planets to a crisp. I'm not sure anyone can wholly discredit the GTVA's offer of improved security in that fashion.
As for the Shivans, Vishnans, and proof of their existance... the GTVA ships that didn't defect encountered the Vishnans in another universe. That's not necessarily a credible threat - anyone can ask "well, have you seen them in THIS universe". The Elders and Space Family Bei on the other hand have had direct contact with the Vishnans and Shivans, and particularly the Elders have some way of scientifically detecting this contact and monitoring its presence. However their Nagari detectors are built is presumbly replicable. Broadcasting the specifications for their construction, demonstrating their nature, getting independent confirmation of the phenomenon from the Vasudans all has zero chance of harming the UEF war effort and a massive chance of getting the GTVA to pay attention to the rest of the Elders' dogmatic nonsense. The GTVA's been in the business of messing up the Shivans for a while, it'd be insane if they didn't even build a prototype, or dig out the old data on ETAK to see what matched up. Once this communication is established to be legitimate, then Space Family Bei and the Elders' testimony gives huge credence to the aspects of UEF philosophy that ostensibly would avert the apocalypse. The GTVA gets to publicly save the day by "putting the pieces together" and announcing their discovery of the Shivan agenda, saving face for everyone. The UEF gets to not have the crap smashed out of them by the Alliance.
The UEF is not doing this. They are, essentially, keeping the secret of salvation to themselves and damning the GTVA to assured annihilation. They are even, by virtue of their resistance to the GTVA, potentially damning themselves to annihilation.
The analogy in my mind is this: a doctor has discovered, and potentially cured, an incredibly lethal disease that nearly half of everyone had, and then hid the cure and had a bunch of secret police guard it. It's monstrous. Let's compare and contrast the Alliance and the Federation's worst-case end of the war scenarios. GTVA? They win an incredibly bloody war after pacifying the population through massive bombardment and ground assault. Let's say they kill 10% of the entire solar system's population and another 40% die to disease and exposure and other stuff. 25% human species dead. And that's a pretty unlikely outcome; the GTVA would probably almost certainly declare defeat and let the UEF rot in Sol instead of going crazy with the dirty bombs. The UEF? They are killed along with the GTVA when the divine triumvirate rolls through punishin' the wicked all willy-nilly. Slightly better worst case? The shivans spare Sol and murder the entire GTVA. 50% human species dead. And it is heavily implied that this is a likely outcome if the war continues without an amazingly unlikely quick UEF victory and imposition of their values on the GTVA.
Anyone actually adhering to the precepts of truthfulness, harmony, and the Ubuntu way would have to find some pretty amazing way to reconcile keeping this incredible secret and the amount of raw suffering keeping that secret will probably entail. I know realistic conflicts are never resolved as easily as my proposal above, but the prospect of it should appeal to in-universe characters in the know. In particular, I want to know how the Elders sleep at night, knowing every second they spend not warning the Alliance makes it more and more likely that the blood of every single Alliance civilian will be on their hands. No one can blame the Alliance leadership for bringing the shivans down on them - they don't know. The Elders do. Even if its the Alliance's aggressiveness that started the apocalypse... the Elders didn't argue strenuously for no resistance and no shooting war. The Elders didn't warn the Alliance soldiers and civilians what they were about to cause. Utterly reprehensible.
uh also maybe I missed a few key story points or articles that make my interpretation of the Elders and their need for secrecy totally wrong and if that is the case I hope I haven't offended anyone with my blatant and limitless boneheadedness :)
EDIT: Unless maybe the super secret project is a prototype Shivaphone that the Feds will give to the Alliance as proof of the threat they HAVE been warning them about.
Then that would be pretty sweet.
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Well at this point this seems to have turned from a discussion of the plausibility of the story (which I would feel the need to contribute to help the integrity of the setting) to a discussion about what the actors in the story could have done, or be doing better.
Which I am perfectly happy with. Real life is full of bizarre and sometimes incredible blunders, as well as all sorts of intelligent and powerful organizations doing retrospectively pinheaded things for what seem like trivial reason. Mistakes have certainly been made, on all sides - I don't think anybody, in or out of universe, would argue with that.
The everybody-wins scenario you've put together is maybe even a plausible one in the setting, but it's also one that comes with the benefit of perspective, detachment, and omnipotent accurate knowledge of what each side actually knows and what its motives are. If you're down in the thick of things, even as a a member of the Security Council or an Elder, you're looking at things through a blood-spattered, muddy lense, struggling with pride, resentment and all sorts of other complications.
People ran with the information they had and made the calls they could. It's important to us, in designing the setting, that the Elders be arguably a secretive bunch of manipulative assholes just as much as they're a generous bunch of farsighted visionaries. Or that the GTVA leadership is as paranoid and triggerhappy as they're vigilant and devoted to human survival.
Imperfection is interesting. If the setting feels like it's run by morons that's because we sometimes take a stab at making it work like real life. :nervous:
As for this specific comment:
restricting the POV to Laporte really curtails the ability to show interesting and relevant events like that.
We tried so very hard to stick to the limited first person perspective like AoA. We didn't quite manage it, since we had a few third-person vignettes in the middle of the campaign. We tried our best to sneak in as much as we could of the documentation you're asking for (which included at least one glimpse at GTVA media coverage of the war), but sticking to the first person limited was a handicap in that respect.
As for the gameplay issue, the missions are definitely a little tenser and more fast-paced than AoA, and they're a lot more unforgiving in some respects since the GTVA as an opponent is closer to parity. We worried about this a lot during development.
This is a really good discussion, and a thoughtful one. And yeah, as I mentioned, inside the dev team we spent a great deal of time fretting and worrying about basically everyone of our decisions, both in terms of design and narrative. We knew we couldn't please everyone.
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On that note, Avatar, we may get in touch with you about beta testing for R2, if you're up for it.
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I'm not sure anyone can wholly discredit the GTVA's offer of improved security in that fashion.
The problem is, there never was any such offer.
The first thing the UEF ever heard from the GTVA wasn't "Hey, would you like us to improve your defense against the shivans?".
It was "We are now in controll because our law sais so. Surrender or die!" follows by the destruction of the Renjian.
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Seriously. The initial contact was essentially in the vein of Pearl Harbor.
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any chance the Shivans try to redeem themselves by attacking both sides?
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I'd definitely like to see how all the cool doodads from WiH work against the Shivans. Must lrn2FRED.
Why can't they all work together? To kill... red-and-black ants. :P
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Erm... because they ARE the ants....
Anyway considering the overuse of the "two sides fight untill they have to unite against a very strong, common enemy"-scenario I doubt the BP team will take that road. Darius strikes me as someone who likes to surprise the players with the way the story goes and this wouldn't be surprising at all.
So most likely the Shivans won't attack both sides, because there will be only one side left, unless the war tapers out into a cold war without any fighting but a lot of distrust.
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Erm... because they ARE the ants....
I'm already aware of that metaphor. I was just pointing out the similarity between it and the Shivans' physical appearance.
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Seriously. The initial contact was essentially in the vein of Pearl Harbor.
I quite like this analogy actually. Fits it in more ways than you'd reckon.
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Seriously. The initial contact was essentially in the vein of Pearl Harbor.
I quite like this analogy actually. Fits it in more ways than you'd reckon.
Including the fact that it was something of an accident, or at least didn't go off quite the way it was meant to and didn't ultimately achieve its immediate goals.
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It does fall down completely on the planning comparison stage, whereas the original plan probably wouldn't have.
(And I don't think anybody threatened to resign if not allowed to carry out an attack on the Renjian.)
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Including the fact that it was something of an accident, or at least didn't go off quite the way it was meant to and didn't ultimately achieve its immediate goals.
Those last two were the reasons on my mind. I'm not sure if you could call Pearl Harbour an 'accident'. I mean, the Navy thought those A6Ms were pretty serious. :P
Unless of course you were talking in a wider sense, in which case I'd still have to disagree and say that I believed it was a failing of the American Intelligence network.
It does fall down completely on the planning comparison stage,
Of course, I was only thinking in terms of December 7th, rather than a more big picture view of the whole deal.
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Including the fact that it was something of an accident, or at least didn't go off quite the way it was meant to and didn't ultimately achieve its immediate goals.
Those last two were the reasons on my mind. I'm not sure if you could call Pearl Harbour an 'accident'. I mean, the Navy thought those A6Ms were pretty serious. :P
Unless of course you were talking in a wider sense, in which case I'd still have to disagree and say that I believed it was a failing of the American Intelligence network.
To my understanding it was meant to follow a formal declaration of war (though just barely), but the timing got screwed up. I could be wrong.
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Oh I've never heard about that.
Although after a quick google of the keywords it looks like you're right. Fair enough, in that case. :P
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Any more Gef ships as well? So far they only fly scimitars
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Including the fact that it was something of an accident, or at least didn't go off quite the way it was meant to and didn't ultimately achieve its immediate goals.
Those last two were the reasons on my mind. I'm not sure if you could call Pearl Harbour an 'accident'. I mean, the Navy thought those A6Ms were pretty serious. :P
Unless of course you were talking in a wider sense, in which case I'd still have to disagree and say that I believed it was a failing of the American Intelligence network.
To my understanding it was meant to follow a formal declaration of war (though just barely), but the timing got screwed up. I could be wrong.
i don't think that is right. it was meant to be a complete surprise and a knockout suckerpunch. japanese ministers had been instructed to stall as much as possible, and were still "negotiating" that morning.
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Including the fact that it was something of an accident, or at least didn't go off quite the way it was meant to and didn't ultimately achieve its immediate goals.
Those last two were the reasons on my mind. I'm not sure if you could call Pearl Harbour an 'accident'. I mean, the Navy thought those A6Ms were pretty serious. :P
Unless of course you were talking in a wider sense, in which case I'd still have to disagree and say that I believed it was a failing of the American Intelligence network.
To my understanding it was meant to follow a formal declaration of war (though just barely), but the timing got screwed up. I could be wrong.
i don't think that is right. it was meant to be a complete surprise and a knockout suckerpunch. japanese ministers had been instructed to stall as much as possible, and were still "negotiating" that morning.
We're both wrong. It wasn't a formal declaration of war, but it was tantamount to:
Part of the Japanese plan for the attack included breaking off negotiations with the United States 30 minutes before the attack began. Diplomats from the Japanese Embassy in Washington, including the Japanese Ambassador, Admiral Kichisaburo Nomura, and special representative Saburo Kurusu, had been conducting extended talks with the State Department regarding the U.S. reactions to the Japanese move into Việt Nam in the summer (see above).
In the days before the attack, a long 14-part message was sent to the Embassy from the Foreign Office in Tokyo (encrypted with the Type 97 cryptographic machine, in a cipher named PURPLE by U.S. cryptanalysts), with instructions to deliver it to Secretary of State Cordell Hull at 1 p.m. Washington time. The last part arrived late Saturday night (Washington time) but due to decryption and typing delays, and to Tokyo's failure to stress the crucial necessity of the timing, Embassy personnel did not deliver the message breaking off negotiations to Secretary Hull until several hours after the attack.
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We're both wrong. It wasn't a formal declaration of war, but it was tantamount to:
Not at all. Formal breaks in relations are not uncommon without war. Japan didn't even announce the recall of their ambassador, which would usually be the last step on the road. There was nothing tantamount to a declaration of war at all. The comparison works in this respect.
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We're both wrong. It wasn't a formal declaration of war, but it was tantamount to:
Not at all. Formal breaks in relations are not uncommon without war.
It was 'tantamount to' in the sense that it was an action taken to provide a legal/diplomatic basis for the beginning of conflict. They may not be uncommon, but in this context it meant what it meant.
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I'm beginning to regret ever introducing the comparison in the first place. :p Suffice it to say that I meant it solely on ethical/moral grounds, not necessarily on logistical ones.
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Gefs using Terran-Vasudan War era GTA fighters. I imagine there must be some lying around out there, and I imagine the Gefs would've stolen them. Heck, even an excuse to reuse the uglies from AoA
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^ I was thinking the same thing. Unless they've been all destroyed in inter-asteroid warfare.
I was also hoping for a better space superiority fighter than the Uhlan, which I found a bit too mediocre (though after flying a Nyx I saw how the Uhlan has advantages in several respects - it's faster but still has a decent gun armament). Then I realized the Kent isn't any less durable, so the Kent is really what I was looking for. And also there is the Izra'il ...
which is kind of a gunship turned missile boat or a super heavy assault fighter, depending on how you see it. I assume we'll see some Izra'il missions and some bomber missions as well in R2.
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Gefs using Terran-Vasudan War era GTA fighters. I imagine there must be some lying around out there, and I imagine the Gefs would've stolen them. Heck, even an excuse to reuse the uglies from AoA
Well you could look at it this way. It's something like 50 years since the Great War that this occurs.
To put it into perspective, this is like saying "Why didn't those Bosnian blokes use Supermarine Spitfires?" when talking about Bosnia and why they didn't use old planes. And also, the military has this nasty habit of disbanding squadrons and crushing their aircraft after wars when the need for them becomes redundant.
And also, remember that these aircraft are like, made of material that suffers stress. Much like the aircraft of today, there's a point where you just can't fly it anymore without it being a safety issue due to the frame stress. I'd imagine most TV era fighters have flown to their useful lifespans and now spend most of their days in museums. Like most Spitfires were doing 50 years after WWII. :P
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I buy the spaceframe argument more. The techroom says that performance between the Scimitars and FS1 fighters are close, and plus, you find all kinds of copied or actual antique light arms in Afghanistan today, simply because they're better than nothing.
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I could imagine flying in a vaccum is less stressfull for the material of the vehicle in question than flying in atmosphere, extending the lifespan of the frame a bit.
Wasn't there also a mention of the Scimitar being a favourite of Mercenaries during (or before?) the TV-War? If so, then maybe some company continues to produce them, or at least part for them, for a while longer and with the need for mercs pretty much vanishing due to the UEF's nature, those fighters ended up in GEF hands.
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The problem with old fighters is that they are probably no longer in production, both the crafts themselves as well as the spare parts so their number would be dwindling fast, from both combat as well as due to insufficient parts to repair them with. Though I do think it is possible for the Gefs may lay their hands on some old Fenris cruisers with modified armaments, those things can probably survive longer.
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Gefs using Terran-Vasudan War era GTA fighters. I imagine there must be some lying around out there, and I imagine the Gefs would've stolen them. Heck, even an excuse to reuse the uglies from AoA
Gefs using upgunned Ulysses were in at one point but cut.
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Gefs using Terran-Vasudan War era GTA fighters. I imagine there must be some lying around out there, and I imagine the Gefs would've stolen them. Heck, even an excuse to reuse the uglies from AoA
Well you could look at it this way. It's something like 50 years since the Great War that this occurs.
To put it into perspective, this is like saying "Why didn't those Bosnian blokes use Supermarine Spitfires?" when talking about Bosnia and why they didn't use old planes. And also, the military has this nasty habit of disbanding squadrons and crushing their aircraft after wars when the need for them becomes redundant.
And also, remember that these aircraft are like, made of material that suffers stress. Much like the aircraft of today, there's a point where you just can't fly it anymore without it being a safety issue due to the frame stress. I'd imagine most TV era fighters have flown to their useful lifespans and now spend most of their days in museums. Like most Spitfires were doing 50 years after WWII. :P
On the other side of the coin, the B-52 is over 50 years old and is planned to continue until 2040. But I suppose they're used in an actual Air Force (and therefore can have proper maintenance and refinement) as opposed to being in the hands of people like the Gefs.
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Gefs using Terran-Vasudan War era GTA fighters. I imagine there must be some lying around out there, and I imagine the Gefs would've stolen them. Heck, even an excuse to reuse the uglies from AoA
Well you could look at it this way. It's something like 50 years since the Great War that this occurs.
To put it into perspective, this is like saying "Why didn't those Bosnian blokes use Supermarine Spitfires?" when talking about Bosnia and why they didn't use old planes. And also, the military has this nasty habit of disbanding squadrons and crushing their aircraft after wars when the need for them becomes redundant.
And also, remember that these aircraft are like, made of material that suffers stress. Much like the aircraft of today, there's a point where you just can't fly it anymore without it being a safety issue due to the frame stress. I'd imagine most TV era fighters have flown to their useful lifespans and now spend most of their days in museums. Like most Spitfires were doing 50 years after WWII. :P
On the other side of the coin, the B-52 is over 50 years old and is planned to continue until 2040. But I suppose they're used in an actual Air Force (and therefore can have proper maintenance and refinement) as opposed to being in the hands of people like the Gefs.
Don't underestimate them. They have surprising capabilities out there, and the Kostadin Cell is only one of many - not all of whom share its ideology.
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I think it really depends on how much maintenance you think FS strike craft need. Are they more like the latest modern fighters, which need constant upkeep and parts replacement? Or WWII era fighters, which are at a much lower level of complexity relative to technical know-how.
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Do the GEFs have some small factories to produce their own spare parts?
I guess a factory large enough to build complete fighters is unlikely, both due to logistics and the task of hiding it, but a smaller one for spare parts only might be possible.
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Do the GEFs have some small factories to produce their own spare parts?
I guess a factory large enough to build complete fighters is unlikely, both due to logistics and the task of hiding it, but a smaller one for spare parts only might be possible.
The Gefs produce new ships and habitats at an unknown rate. Federation intelligence is unclear on the extent of Gef industrialization or logistical capability, given that penetration of their habitats is essentially impossible, but data from other sources suggests that the Gefs have grown adept at sustaining their populations using the ice, organics, and volatiles drawn from Kuiper belt objects as well as captured rocky/metallic asteroids from deeper in the system.
Manufacturing capabilities seem to vary widely between cells, with some maintaining cometary workshops and others turning to more exotic means.
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pity that the blue planet wiki article doesn't show anything on the gef...
a definite idea though in WIH might be the eradication of the constadin cell (perhaps while flying a scimitar undercover...)
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Kostadin Cell rats I hate those sub-human bastuds go home to your damn comets asshoels
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On the other side of the coin, the B-52 is over 50 years old and is planned to continue until 2040. But I suppose they're used in an actual Air Force (and therefore can have proper maintenance and refinement) as opposed to being in the hands of people like the Gefs.
The 100-odd (or less) B-52s in service with the USAF and Air Guard exist upon the bones of the hundreds of them in mothballs or permanently disarmed sitting out in the Arizona desert. There are major components that can no longer be replaced, too; the wing spars, for example, haven't been replaceable for more than 20 years. A B-52 with a damaged wing spar is going to permanently write one off; either itself, or another in mothballs.
Since the Gefs are (some of them?) engaged in active combat operations where their fightercraft get damaged, they've long since used up existing stocks of spare parts for any FS1 fighters they may have possessed. If they had any to begin with. It's very doubtful that the B-52 analogy could ever have applied and they had several times the number of active craft to use as spares.
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pity that the blue planet wiki article doesn't show anything on the gef...
a definite idea though in WIH might be the eradication of the constadin cell (perhaps while flying a scimitar undercover...)
Stealth fighter anhiliation... Sneak in, take out several wings (given a timespan of 10-15 seconds before they can call for reinforcements) and somehow 'tag' a base, so that friendly reinforcements can finally locate a hidden base of sorts to force the Gef's to surrender.
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yes, but an undercover mission to tap in their channels might help locate the base, and what better way to do that than at the help of one of their fighters? Also, it'l be an excuse to fly one more fighter (if it's not the meanest thing out there, then it represents more of a challenge...)
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Why just infiltrate a Gef base? Trick them into attacking Tev assets!
Particularly those the UEF dare not attack, like the Vasudans.
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If they did that, the UEF would only show the Vasudans that they were right not to trust the UEF and thus destroy any chance to ever reconcile with the Vasudans should it ever come to light.
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GEFs already attacked Vasudans
Also, getting GEFs to attack GTVA would most likely work well for fighting GEFs, but wouldn't do much to GTVA, Scimitars won't stand a chance against AAA beam armed ships.
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And that's why you 'make' them attack logicstic ships.
If they did that, the UEF would only show the Vasudans that they were right not to trust the UEF and thus destroy any chance to ever reconcile with the Vasudans should it ever come to light.
If the UEF does it right, the GTVA won't notice who has been leading the Gef strikes.
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question, why do the gef attack the vasudans? Why do they see them as a threat to their ecoterrorism agenda or to their idea of gaia?
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I got the impression that the GEF didn't see the Vasudans as a threat, but as a tool.
First they just wanted to get the logistics ship for themselfs. Apart from being a very usefull ship by itself, it has lots of technology and information on board, not to mention spare parts in abundance and maybe even whole fighters.
The seconds attack was made to prevent the UEF from negotiating with the Vasudans, which might have put an end to the war (unlikely but possible), which wasn't in the best interrest of at least that particular GEF cell.
If the UEF does it right, the GTVA won't notice who has been leading the Gef strikes.
But if they don't it's gonna backfire badly.... a situation that I hope Steele to experiance in WiH2....
How about his gamble coming out, the Vasudans pulling out of Sol and Steele being demoted to wing leader and subsequently dueling with Laporte (kinda like the SoC missiong take two)? That sounds like fun.
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If you pay close attention, this is what happens with the Gefs in R1:
1. The Gefs attack the Nauticus transport and attempt to extract its cargo. For some reason a GTVA tactical transport is present.
2. The Gefs attack the Vasudan logistics ship Pesedjet. Later it becomes clear that this attack was carried out in cooperation with Admiral Steele, but it was supposed to look like the Gefs carried out the attack on UEF orders, so the UEF could save or capture the logistics ship.
3. The Gefs attack the Shepseskaf, pretending to work for the UEF, so that the Vasudans will break off negotiations.
Kostadin Cell is cooperating with Steele because they share an agenda.
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surely they must see that steele will not tolerate the GEF militia once he retakes sol? :confused:
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Why would they?
They have no information on the GTVA except that, which the UEF made public (unless they have spys very high up in the UEF) and I doubt the databanks of the deserters had much written about how the GTVA treats their enviroment.
Since the GEFs are hunted by the current administration in Sol, they have nothing to lose. At worst they switch one hunter for the another. At best the GTVA is more symathetic to their goals than the UEF was, however that might work out.
And even if the GTVA turns out to be the same (in regards of "planet raping"), then the GEFs might still have made some profit (like Argo transports and GTVA intel on the UEF).
Besides they are fanatics. And fanatics often do things that seem ludicrous to anyone else (like planting a big bomb on something you want to capture for example).
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How about his gamble coming out, the Vasudans pulling out of Sol and Steele being demoted to wing leader and subsequently dueling with Laporte (kinda like the SoC missiong take two)? That sounds like fun.
You'd still lose. :P
Steele flies his Erinyes with one arm and still gets a medal for it.
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No, he flies fighters in the manliest way possible: with his knees.
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Besides they are fanatics. And fanatics often do things that seem ludicrous to anyone else (like planting a big bomb on something you want to capture for example).
If it's 'capture at best, deny at worst', that's not a bad move.
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Could we confine the Steele wankery to the fact generator thread please?
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They have no information on the GTVA except that, which the UEF made public
That was almost all of it I thought.
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Could we confine the Steele wankery to the fact generator thread please?
Actually you'll find what I said at least was true. :P
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They have no information on the GTVA except that, which the UEF made public
That was almost all of it I thought.
The other way applies too. Nothing has been revealed about the Ubuntu council's motivation and what they have been doing behind the scene.
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I guess the UEF probably published all they knew, but I somehow doubt that the GTVA deserters and databanks had much to say about how the alliance treats their enviroments.
Unless there were some noteworthy incidents, big enough to make it into the histry archives, matters of pollution and such usually aren't recorded, even more so on military vessels.
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What I want?
1. Moar Dakka!
2. Moar Story!
3. Advanced Fed-Tactics!*
*I mean, if the Tevs are firing with Trebs on little Earth-Fighters, the Ubuntu people have to fire with paveway-missiles back... and taking big vessels into really bad shape.
1.Jumping out of subspace
2.Paveway to the subsystem
*Subsystem dusted*
3.Ran/jump for God's sake.
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I read this entire thread and didn't see anyone say this: More pompous music score! Its what really makes the missions in BP so amazing. Nothing gets you more pumped then some of these tracks.
I especially like the music selection in WiH. I would like the future releases to follow this style. When I played AoA I though the music was breathtaking but schizophrenic at times. Switch from metal to electronica mid-flight or playing a merry jig during a duel with the Sathanas.
WiH decided upon a particular tone and the result is near perfection. I only squinted when I heard the Apocalyptica track but that was because I recognized the song and thinking about it blew the immersion.
Apart from that the choral laments during capship struggles perfectly fits the atmosphere of playing as the underdog UEF. With every loss accompanied with grievous tones.
May I suggest a track that would IMO fit in nicely? It's very pompous and would psyche the player up before or during a large scale engagement. I always wanted to FRED a mission with this piece but as my skills are lacking I wonder if the find could maybe inspire the BP team. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJs5PF0Uz10&feature=related
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Considering the situation the 14th battlegroup was in in AoA, I think the changes in the music fit. They were constantly tossed into new situations never knowing what comes next after all (with the only constant being the disarming of Shivan beams :P).
The only thing about the music in the DC that I didn't like was, that they didn't change the music of "Lucifer" to the planetkiller theme. But that isn't really a problem. Extract the mission, change the music-generating event and stick it in the missions folder. Maybe two minutes.
The WiH music fits WiH perfectly.... but I think it wouldn't work quite as good for AoA.
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I have some music suggestions:
Blinder by Phoenix Down Machine: http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/175143
Cirrus by Hue and Saturation: http://hughandsaturation.com/Hugh%20and%20Saturation.rar (its a package)
Light Improv by Rev (Planetdescent of IGN, the original host of the Descent Community Album, is down permanently due to a massive virus, but i have the whole album and can upload a copy of Light Improv.)
I believe all of the above are under the GNU GPL or the Creative Commons License.
also, you may have to buy it, but check out Fusion Rider by groovystar on Myspace.
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Light Improv by Rev (Planetdescent of IGN, the original host of the Descent Community Album, is down permanently due to a massive virus, but i have the whole album and can upload a copy of Light Improv.)
Oh hey, I have that too ... somewhere. :nervous:
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actually, as music suggestions go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GHYvyBZa8M
I believe the track to be from an ace combat game. Could be tricky to implement but IMO nicely fitting for a finale...
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oh and I have another one.
Guitar Vs. Piano 1.2 by Goukisan: http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/53576
Also, I think that BP is too damn dramatic, it only has about two seconds of comic relief. In real wars, soldiers will joke even in the middle of a firefight some times, occasionally but still. This mod reminds me too much of BSG where everyone is yelling for some reason. SG: Universe isn't any better or it's worse, though.
You guys need to add a major character who has a dark sense of humor, yet can still kick ass on the battle field. No more of this 'all of the jokers die' sort of thing please.' It is probably one of the most Hollywood-like features on BP, and I am sure that not one person on HLP is a Hollywood person. oh and I have a persona for this new guy I would like to see on BP too.
-Dislikes Ubuntu, greatly
-Can directly communicate to anyone using Nagari. (if you say that this is stupid then you suck, if you ask me why, then you are a reasonable person and I will explain myself)
-Hates emos
-Joined Fayadeen because they know how to kill stuff. And NO they did not find him, this guy found the Fayadeen. (is that how you spell it?)
-Had a job as a mechanical repairman before going military
-Knows just how cruel the universe can be, and how to pay it back in full.
-Knows that the Great Civil War is a bunch of shivan-orchestrated crap, to soften the Terran species' military.
-His hero is 'Chesty' Puller
-loves a good joke, dirty or clean.
-Likes Tev technology over Fed tech, but likes the ships and reactor quality of the Feds.
-After getting a hold of a basic Tev database he learns that the shivans had their guns set on 'stun' during the Great War.
-He is only a 1st Lt. because when he was in the UEF military, he was caught combining Fed and Tev tech to get something awsome and one of his CO's, a devout Ubuntu practicer, said that what he was doing was like selling his soul to the shivans, so the 'new guy' chewed him the hell out and when AWOL and joined the Fayadeen long before he was ever publicly demoted. That doesn't matter anymore, cause' hes Fayadeen now. unless it does? :nervous:
Sure, there are a lot of good movies and shows out there, but I am talking about main-stream style. Film companies are too into it; it's just dumb. What BP needs is some humor, and quotes from famous military commanders.
The game-play is great, but the GTVA ships are under-powered, they need more speed and armor.
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You guys need to add a major character who has a dark sense of humor, yet can still kick ass on the battle field.
We do have one in mind named Laporte. :nervous:
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You guys need to add a major character who has a dark sense of humor, yet can still kick ass on the battle field. No more of this 'all of the jokers die' sort of thing please.' It is probably one of the most Hollywood-like features on BP, and I am sure that not one person on HLP is a Hollywood person. oh and I have a persona for this new guy I would like to see on BP too.
Hm, while I love dark humor, I just don't think suddenly introducing sort of a Duke Nukem-badass character would work too well, especially after the last one who tried to fit that role turned out to hide his weakness behind such a mask. I actually think that we have some sort of "war isn't always grief and bitterness" feel with the leisure activities on the Indus. I don't say it's inherently a bad idea, I just think it would clash so much with the established setting, it could potentially ruin the thing.
-Dislikes Ubuntu, greatly
Fair enough, I think many characters from Mars or Jupiter could be portrayed like that easily and believably.
-Can directly communicate to anyone using Nagari. (if you say that this is stupid then you suck, if you ask me why, then you are a reasonable person and I will explain myself)
Well, I don't say it IS stupid, but it certainly SOUNDS stupid, unless your explanation is truly awesome.
-Hates emos
Wait, the insufferable emo subculture survived for centuries? No wonder the Shivans go human-hunting...
And if you mean "clinically depressed people" or "people with borderline", then... No, just no. There's nothing badass about a character who thinks kicking the weak when they're down is awesome.
-Joined Fayadeen because they know how to kill stuff. And NO they did not find him, this guy found the Fayadeen. (is that how you spell it?)
That would be kind of hard to pull off without making the Feyadeen lose their status as an organisation, more bent on gathering information about all that mystical science stuff. I guess it could be pulled off kind of like that: Our badass found them, wasn't interested on their research and intel operations, but said "you let me kick ass and take names or I'll spoil everything I discovered" and they reluctantly accepted, something like that.
-Had a job as a mechanical repairman before going military
OK, that's awesome.
-Knows just how cruel the universe can be, and how to pay it back in full.
Well, he is supposed to be a grim badass, so that's a given I think
-Knows that the Great Civil War is a bunch of shivan-orchestrated crap, to soften the Terran species' military.
Knows or suspects? Have there been spoilers I missed in my long absence?
-His hero is 'Chesty' Puller
OK, why not. But I always thought it funny that in fiction in the future out of necessity they always choose heroes that we would know in our present time
-loves a good joke, dirty or clean.
That should be a trait of every likeable character I guess.
-Likes Tev technology over Fed tech, but likes the ships and reactor quality of the Feds.
Hm, OK, I guess theres not much to argue with that. As an ex-mechanic I'd expect him to openly drool over some tech specs.
-After getting a hold of a basic Tev database he learns that the shivans had their guns set on 'stun' during the Great War.
Again, I guess I missed something, but that might actually have been in the material I already read (which is of course now weeks ago). The Feds don't/didn't know that yet?
-He is only a 1st Lt. because when he was in the UEF military, he was caught combining Fed and Tev tech to get something awsome and one of his CO's, a devout Ubuntu practicer, said that what he was doing was like selling his soul to the shivans, so the 'new guy' chewed him the hell out and when AWOL and joined the Fayadeen long before he was ever publicly demoted. That doesn't matter anymore, cause' hes Fayadeen now. unless it does? :nervous:
I guess if he had a good way of joining, it would work. But I don't think it is believeable actually. Where in Ubuntu does it say "don't use technology of the enemy, or you will become the enemy!"?
Sure, there are a lot of good movies and shows out there, but I am talking about main-stream style. Film companies are too into it; it's just dumb. What BP needs is some humor, and quotes from famous military commanders.
The game-play is great, but the GTVA ships are under-powered, they need more speed and armor.
Hm, I have a hard time believing that the GTVA are underpowered. It has been some days now since I booted WiH up, but they didn't feel underpowered to me. Are you basing that on .tbl entries or what you thought playing the campaign?
And, actually, what you describe sounds a lot like mainstream 90s grim-and-gritty character to me. Not that anything's wrong with that on it's own, but I just can't see that fitting into WiH, unless it's pulled off really really good, with a voiceacting genius and a dialogue author who made a pact with the devil to increase his skill.
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-He is only a 1st Lt. because when he was in the UEF military, he was caught combining Fed and Tev tech to get something awsome and one of his CO's, a devout Ubuntu practicer, said that what he was doing was like selling his soul to the shivans, so the 'new guy' chewed him the hell out and when AWOL and joined the Fayadeen long before he was ever publicly demoted. That doesn't matter anymore, cause' hes Fayadeen now. unless it does? :nervous:
I guess if he had a good way of joining, it would work. But I don't think it is believeable actually. Where in Ubuntu does it say "don't use technology of the enemy, or you will become the enemy!"?
Also remember that you actually get to fly Tev ships in WiH.
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Took another look over the UEF stealth fighter, the only ship I still got to get used to with it being the fictional F-19 fighter as made by Revell kit-models I think.
(http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/portland/971/boxart/testors/testors_f-19_48.jpg)
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/138/406868675_e4b1c60307.jpg)
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-He is only a 1st Lt. because when he was in the UEF military, he was caught combining Fed and Tev tech to get something awsome and one of his CO's, a devout Ubuntu practicer, said that what he was doing was like selling his soul to the shivans, so the 'new guy' chewed him the hell out and when AWOL and joined the Fayadeen long before he was ever publicly demoted. That doesn't matter anymore, cause' hes Fayadeen now. unless it does? :nervous:
I guess if he had a good way of joining, it would work. But I don't think it is believeable actually. Where in Ubuntu does it say "don't use technology of the enemy, or you will become the enemy!"?
Also remember that you actually get to fly Tev ships in WiH.
Um... where?
There is an Atalanta, a Nyx, and a Draco in the ship selection screen in Aristeia, but they are not selectable, you are locked into using the Kentauroi. At least that's the case when I played it, both in campaign, and from the tech room.
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-He is only a 1st Lt. because when he was in the UEF military, he was caught combining Fed and Tev tech to get something awsome and one of his CO's, a devout Ubuntu practicer, said that what he was doing was like selling his soul to the shivans, so the 'new guy' chewed him the hell out and when AWOL and joined the Fayadeen long before he was ever publicly demoted. That doesn't matter anymore, cause' hes Fayadeen now. unless it does? :nervous:
I guess if he had a good way of joining, it would work. But I don't think it is believeable actually. Where in Ubuntu does it say "don't use technology of the enemy, or you will become the enemy!"?
Also remember that you actually get to fly Tev ships in WiH.
Um... where?
There is an Atalanta, a Nyx, and a Draco in the ship selection screen in Aristeia, but they are not selectable, you are locked into using the Kentauroi. At least that's the case when I played it, both in campaign, and from the tech room.
That's odd, because I did try them out. :confused:
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Just remember that you're not in the Alpha 1 slot in that mission.
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-He is only a 1st Lt. because when he was in the UEF military, he was caught combining Fed and Tev tech to get something awsome and one of his CO's, a devout Ubuntu practicer, said that what he was doing was like selling his soul to the shivans, so the 'new guy' chewed him the hell out and when AWOL and joined the Fayadeen long before he was ever publicly demoted. That doesn't matter anymore, cause' hes Fayadeen now. unless it does? :nervous:
I guess if he had a good way of joining, it would work. But I don't think it is believeable actually. Where in Ubuntu does it say "don't use technology of the enemy, or you will become the enemy!"?
Also remember that you actually get to fly Tev ships in WiH.
Um... where?
There is an Atalanta, a Nyx, and a Draco in the ship selection screen in Aristeia, but they are not selectable, you are locked into using the Kentauroi. At least that's the case when I played it, both in campaign, and from the tech room.
Unless some horrible bug popped up, they're definitely selectable; drag them over to the Alpha 2 slot.
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Really? Scientific, market-driven people who somehow hate to use and copy others' technology and engineering innovations? I doubt it. I think some people overstate the Elders' spirituality, the reason why Ubuntu Party rose to power is because of economic and infrastructure achievements - something that needs engineering and science. And that goes double for Mars and Jupiter, where spirituality isn't enough to tide them into the Federation. Intra-system jumpgates, for example, reduce the cost of trade by not requiring every ship to have jump drives (although it's probably not an useful innovation to the GTVA, their development is spread out over different systems, though down the road it could be useful as worlds develop).
Story-wise, I don't really see why an engineering cool-guy will improve the story, there are plenty of Martian not-very-Ubuntu people in the story and maybe we'll see some Jovian characters down the line. But people think it's cool, whatever.
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And with the Fedayeen the story will surely get a good influx of new, non-standard characters. Surely you don't become a Fedayeen member by being just an average guy/gal right?
And I too don't think combining UEF and GTVA tech is going to see anyone punished. Relocated into Research and Development maybe (almost assuredly in form of an invitation you can decline without repercussions), but certainly not demoted.
As mentioned before you can fly Tev fighters in one mission and even when you fly the Kentauri, you still get a GTVA communications device installed into your fighter, because your's was shot to hell
which allows you to cut through the Tev jamming and call in support from the Eris to take down that GTVA corvette.
Communication with other Nagari users.... did you recently watch Gundam 00 by any chance? Because that sounds a lot like how the quantum-brainwave users are portraied in that series.
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You guys need to add a major character who has a dark sense of humor, yet can still kick ass on the battle field. No more of this 'all of the jokers die' sort of thing please.' It is probably one of the most Hollywood-like features on BP, and I am sure that not one person on HLP is a Hollywood person. oh and I have a persona for this new guy I would like to see on BP too.
Hm, while I love dark humor, I just don't think suddenly introducing sort of a Duke Nukem-badass character would work too well, especially after the last one who tried to fit that role turned out to hide his weakness behind such a mask. I actually think that we have some sort of "war isn't always grief and bitterness" feel with the leisure activities on the Indus. I don't say it's inherently a bad idea, I just think it would clash so much with the established setting, it could potentially ruin the thing.
-Dislikes Ubuntu, greatly
Fair enough, I think many characters from Mars or Jupiter could be portrayed like that easily and believably.
-Can directly communicate to anyone using Nagari. (if you say that this is stupid then you suck, if you ask me why, then you are a reasonable person and I will explain myself)
Well, I don't say it IS stupid, but it certainly SOUNDS stupid, unless your explanation is truly awesome.
After constantly getting prodded by the shivans, the 'newguy' would lash back mentally, eventually he got the hang of it and learned to use it in a more subtle fashion. You have to run before you can walk. He new it was the shivans because his father suffered from the same thing, and his father was sure it was 'them.'
-Hates emos
Wait, the insufferable emo subculture survived for centuries? No wonder the Shivans go human-hunting...
And if you mean "clinically depressed people" or "people with borderline", then... No, just no. There's nothing badass about a character who thinks kicking the weak when they're down is awesome.
Yeah your right. Terrible idea.
-Had a job as a mechanical repairman before going military
OK, that's awesome.
-Knows just how cruel the universe can be, and how to pay it back in full.
Well, he is supposed to be a grim badass, so that's a given I think
-Knows that the Great Civil War is a bunch of shivan-orchestrated crap, to soften the Terran species' military.
Knows or suspects? Have there been spoilers I missed in my long absence?
Its a gut feeling
-His hero is 'Chesty' Puller
OK, why not. But I always thought it funny that in fiction in the future out of necessity they always choose heroes that we would know in our present time
-Likes Tev technology over Fed tech, but likes the ships and reactor quality of the Feds.
Hm, OK, I guess theres not much to argue with that. As an ex-mechanic I'd expect him to openly drool over some tech specs.
-After getting a hold of a basic Tev database he learns that the shivans had their guns set on 'stun' during the Great War.
Again, I guess I missed something, but that might actually have been in the material I already read (which is of course now weeks ago). The Feds don't/didn't know that yet?
Read the database entries for the shivan weapons.
Sure, there are a lot of good movies and shows out there, but I am talking about main-stream style. Film companies are too into it; it's just dumb. What BP needs is some humor, and quotes from famous military commanders.
The game-play is great, but the GTVA ships are under-powered, they need more speed and armor.
Hm, I have a hard time believing that the GTVA are underpowered. It has been some days now since I booted WiH up, but they didn't feel underpowered to me. Are you basing that on .tbl entries or what you thought playing the campaign?
oops.
And, actually, what you describe sounds a lot like mainstream 90s grim-and-gritty character to me. Not that anything's wrong with that on it's own, but I just can't see that fitting into WiH, unless it's pulled off really really good, with a voiceacting genius and a dialogue author who made a pact with the devil to increase his skill.
I can do that ;7 no seriously, I am exceptional at voicing and writing dialogue, just not the actual story, but someone already took care of that.
Behind the badassery, this person would be the gentle-giant type but not scared.
"We shall show mercy, but we shall not ask for it." -Winston Churchill.
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I detect massive amounts of Mary Sue in that character.
Not to mention player bias.
-Dislikes Ubuntu, greatly
Reason?
-Can directly communicate to anyone using Nagari. (if you say that this is stupid then you suck, if you ask me why, then you are a reasonable person and I will explain myself)
Nagari doesn't work that way.
After constantly getting prodded by the shivans, the 'newguy' would lash back mentally, eventually he got the hang of it and learned to use it in a more subtle fashion. You have to run before you can walk. He new it was the shivans because his father suffered from the same thing, and his father was sure it was 'them.'
Nagari really doesn't work that way.
-Knows that the Great Civil War is a bunch of shivan-orchestrated crap, to soften the Terran species' military.
How does he know that? It's not like he has anything but his own suspicions to get that conclusion.
-Joined Fayadeen because they know how to kill stuff. And NO they did not find him, this guy found the Fayadeen. (is that how you spell it?)
If this guy found the Fedayeen, they still wouldn't let him in. Being a Fedayeen requires absolute belief in Ubuntu. Your guy doesn't qualify.
-After getting a hold of a basic Tev database he learns that the shivans had their guns set on 'stun' during the Great War.
No Tev database needed. The UEF is fully aware of this fact.
The game-play is great, but the GTVA ships are under-powered, they need more speed and armor.
GTVA ships are built to be lightning bruisers. Jump in, beam the target to pieces, jump out before the bombs get you. See also: Serkr Team.
-He is only a 1st Lt. because when he was in the UEF military, he was caught combining Fed and Tev tech to get something awsome and one of his CO's, a devout Ubuntu practicer, said that what he was doing was like selling his soul to the shivans, so the 'new guy' chewed him the hell out and when AWOL and joined the Fayadeen long before he was ever publicly demoted. That doesn't matter anymore, cause' hes Fayadeen now. unless it does?
You have a few misconceptions about Ubuntu. There is no such thing as evil technology in Ubuntu.
Behind the badassery, this person would be the gentle-giant type but not scared.
Yeah, it's a Mary Sue.
I can do that no seriously, I am exceptional at voicing and writing dialogue, just not the actual story, but someone already took care of that.
Is there any writing from you available on the net that we can check out?
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i'll just respond with a "NO" to all counts.
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A gritty, dark and sarcastic character would be good on alle sides. :rolleyes:
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Crap, I look in here and somebody's already deconstructed.
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A gritty, dark and sarcastic character would be good on alle sides. :rolleyes:
We don't have any of those anywhere, do we? :nervous:
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A gritty, dark and sarcastic character would be good on alle sides. :rolleyes:
Yeah, like... uhm, can't remember the name of the character.
The guy from Derelict played by Mr. Ransom. Loved those duct-tape jokes ;)
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A gritty, dark and sarcastic character would be good on alle sides. :rolleyes:
Yeah, like... uhm, can't remember the name of the character.
The guy from Derelict played by Mr. Ransom. Loved those duct-tape jokes ;)
Mackie.
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A gritty, dark and sarcastic character would be good on alle sides. :rolleyes:
We don't have any of those anywhere, do we? :nervous:
Hmmh, I mean as a second Main Character (a GTVA-Pilot hahah), Laporte is more something between a crazy Valkyrie and a flower girl.
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Mackie.
That's him! I could cuddle that guy :D
Blue Planet means serious business. A fresh jackass in your team would certainly be helpful :p
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But Ubuntu does not use duct tape in their fighter craft, which is odd as enough duct tape will fix anything. The Gefs might use plenty of duct tape though.
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Pfft, who said they didn't have a use for duct tape?!
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Mackie appearing would be pretty funny
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Pfft, who said they didn't have a use for duct tape?!
I think that the Shivans use duct tape too. I mean, so many fancy and working fighters and bombers? Aww come on! :nervous:
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Pfft, who said they didn't have a use for duct tape?!
They have stuff that moves, and shouldn't. Ergo, Duct Tape.
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Mackie appearing would be pretty funny
Just don't make us kill him! :(
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Make him switch sides and shove some duct tape up their arse ;7
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Just don't make us kill him! :(
Man, Mackie gets ship-guardian way more often than Xinny and Zero. Mackie'll kill you.
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Mackie's ship-guardianed for the whole of Derelict, right? How long is that?
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I hope you guys stick with the military feel the story had, though I know that is probably reasonably set in stone one way or another as it's already been written out and all. But really, all the military terminology and such. Oh yeah. I totally go for that sort of thing.
Gameplay-wise, it's hard to say. I actually liked how fighters and capships had to rely on one another and you couldn't just cruise off on your own and *trumpets* save the dayyyyy all by yourself! I mean, seriously, who do those types think they ARE, Admiral STEELE? :hopping: :lol:
I'm not a big fan of the whole "Alpha 1" approach, so I loved the first part of War in Heaven since it minimized that. I know you guys are going to go back to a more "player agentic" approach this time around, I just hope you don't go too far in that direction, as there are some that really enjoy the teamwork and realistic feel involved in having to pair off and work with capital ships, think more about how you maneuver, and whatsuch.
I would love to see more tactical depth to the game. I'm not sure how to go about it, though I'll mention any ideas if they come up. Anything that improves the number of tactical options and considerations is awesome. Also, I've always been a big fan of mission objectives that revolve around the old "more than one way to skin a cat" adage. The cap ship test mission is a decent example of that, given you have two options as to how to approach the situation. Actually, three if you wait long enough. Branching stuff like that is awesome, as well. Though I know all of this requires a lot more effort, I think it ends up giving a superior experience, even if this sort of thing only makes it into a couple key missions.
Though of secondary importance, easter eggs and humor are always win. Delenda Est had such a happy moment of love and harmony in it, depending on how you went about it... erhum.
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As someone whose played some of the missions in Act 2, be advised that it is not lacking in the tactical department. ;)
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"Player Agency", as Battuta uses the term, means more like "Your actions will have more of an overall impact on the storyline". It's not a return of the Alpha 1-syndrome, but rather giving the player the option to influence the story and the missions more. In WiH R1, there was a lot of railroading in place in some missions, we're just trying to give you more options how to complete your mission objectives. This sort of mirrors Laporte's increased authority; you're not someone elses Wingman anymore, and people start to depend on your leadership to get them through.
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Yeah, basically in R2 you'll get to step up as a leader to make big tactical decisions. So specifically this:
I would love to see more tactical depth to the game. I'm not sure how to go about it, though I'll mention any ideas if they come up. Anything that improves the number of tactical options and considerations is awesome. Also, I've always been a big fan of mission objectives that revolve around the old "more than one way to skin a cat" adage. The cap ship test mission is a decent example of that, given you have two options as to how to approach the situation. Actually, three if you wait long enough. Branching stuff like that is awesome, as well. Though I know all of this requires a lot more effort, I think it ends up giving a superior experience, even if this sort of thing only makes it into a couple key missions.
You're pretty much going to be in heaven. Of the missions we've FREDded so far I can't think of one that doesn't have at least two fairly different approaches.
Honestly the big fear we have right now is conveying all this info to the player.
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Honestly the big fear we have right now is conveying all this info to the player.
Yeah, but this is why the military has the SMEAC structure for mission briefings. :D
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Mackie's ship-guardianed for the whole of Derelict, right? How long is that?
Except for the last mission I believe. If I'm right Mackie and everyone can die in the last mission as they served their purpose. Not 100% sure.
On the topic of tactical decisions: lovely!
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That'll extend to the character, I'll add. You will get a chance to define Laporte a little by making moral decisions with some long-running consequences, and not of the Bioshock 1-level 'kill babies vs. save babies' variety.
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Entire team is babies.
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Am really curious how the third installment, so the one after WiH2 will proceed then, with different outcomes defining Laporte. Exciting!
Entire team is babies.
The BP team.. or Laporte's? :eek:
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Ah, so this concept Battuta has mentioned isn't Alpha 1 syndrome, but instead exactly what I'm asking for in terms of multiple options in how to complete missions, and extra goodness insofar as effect on storyline. Mmm. Goodness. This is deliciously exciting. :D Yes indeed, I would have to agree about the Heaven bit. The title "War in Heaven" will take on a whole new meaning for me (and I hope others) here. *swoons*
And by Act 2, I assume you mean the release 2 you guys are working on, and not the Act 2 within release 1? Though I do admit, the tactical depth did increase some as you got access to more toys, particularly that lovely gunship. That thing is an incredible little toy I oh-so-enjoy working with. I hope there's a fair share of missions involving it. I love the mechanics behind it and its awesome Archer system. And that BOOM, SHAKE as it fires, though a bit jarring insofar as keeping accuracy, is quite satisfying. Ahem, but I digress, for I am getting a bit off topic here.
You guys really do fantastic work. I cannot stress that enough. I haven't been this excited about a mod before. Aw crap, I'm off-topic again.
I was actually going to suggest putting in moral decisions that would have big effects on the campaign, but I figured that might be asking for too much - and here you guys go surprising me by mentioning you're one step ahead on that. You folks are nothing if you aren't overachievers, are you? Not complaining! You guys are the wind beneath my wings.
Okay, perhaps that last bit was an exaggeration. And just a tad creepy. I swear it was a joke. No, no, none other than Admiral Steele himself is the wind beneath my wings. Oh, I do hope we'll be seeing more of him. :) Heck, I might even be willing to work alongside the glorious bastard, permitting he stops bombing my precious Feddy colonies. ;) Crap, did I just digress into more off topicness? Hm, ending post now. ;p
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Would it be funny if Steele turns out to be someone like Tim Curry as Premier Cherdenko in Red Alert 3. The sort that will make you laugh and tremble in fear at the same time.
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-He is only a 1st Lt. because when he was in the UEF military, he was caught combining Fed and Tev tech to get something awsome and one of his CO's, a devout Ubuntu practicer, said that what he was doing was like selling his soul to the shivans, so the 'new guy' chewed him the hell out and when AWOL and joined the Fayadeen long before he was ever publicly demoted. That doesn't matter anymore, cause' hes Fayadeen now. unless it does? :nervous:
I guess if he had a good way of joining, it would work. But I don't think it is believeable actually. Where in Ubuntu does it say "don't use technology of the enemy, or you will become the enemy!"?
Also remember that you actually get to fly Tev ships in WiH.
Yeah, understood.
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double post
I detect massive amounts of Mary Sue in that character.
Not to mention player bias.
-Dislikes Ubuntu, greatly
Reason?
like Laporte, he is an earther, and he sees pacifism as the route to annihilation.
-Can directly communicate to anyone using Nagari. (if you say that this is stupid then you suck, if you ask me why, then you are a reasonable person and I will explain myself)
Nagari doesn't work that way.
After constantly getting prodded by the shivans, the 'newguy' would lash back mentally, eventually he got the hang of it and learned to use it in a more subtle fashion. You have to run before you can walk. He new it was the shivans because his father suffered from the same thing, and his father was sure it was 'them.'
Nagari really doesn't work that way.
understood.
-Knows that the Great Civil War is a bunch of shivan-orchestrated crap, to soften the Terran species' military.
How does he know that? It's not like he has anything but his own suspicions to get that conclusion.
I said that already.
-Joined Fayadeen because they know how to kill stuff. And NO they did not find him, this guy found the Fayadeen. (is that how you spell it?)
If this guy found the Fedayeen, they still wouldn't let him in. Being a Fedayeen requires absolute belief in Ubuntu. Your guy doesn't qualify.
Understood.
-After getting a hold of a basic Tev database he learns that the shivans had their guns set on 'stun' during the Great War.
No Tev database needed. The UEF is fully aware of this fact.
clarified.
The game-play is great, but the GTVA ships are under-powered, they need more speed and armor.
GTVA ships are built to be lightning bruisers. Jump in, beam the target to pieces, jump out before the bombs get you. See also: Serkr Team.
acknowledged.
-He is only a 1st Lt. because when he was in the UEF military, he was caught combining Fed and Tev tech to get something awsome and one of his CO's, a devout Ubuntu practicer, said that what he was doing was like selling his soul to the shivans, so the 'new guy' chewed him the hell out and when AWOL and joined the Fayadeen long before he was ever publicly demoted. That doesn't matter anymore, cause' hes Fayadeen now. unless it does?
You have a few misconceptions about Ubuntu. There is no such thing as evil technology in Ubuntu.
oops.
Behind the badassery, this person would be the gentle-giant type but not scared.
Yeah, it's a Mary Sue.
Ok. What does that mean? I'll FingG it (****ing google it), but I want to know why you made that comment.
I can do that no seriously, I am exceptional at voicing and writing dialogue, just not the actual story, but someone already took care of that.
Is there any writing from you available on the net that we can check out?
[/quote]
I am not good at stories but I am exceptional at dialogue, unfortunately I tend to go off on tangents if I make it, so it will take a while for me to refine the character. Also, I don't want to spoil the story for myself, requiring the dialogue planed out or story planed out for developing such a thing. However, if you guize make the character, I can indefinitely do the job.
But no I have no dialogue material but you can check the one thing I have on dA. My username is "Ionosphere-Negate"
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I am not good at stories but I am exceptional at dialogue, unfortunately I tend to go off on tangents if I make it, so it will take a while for me to refine the character. Also, I don't want to spoil the story for myself, requiring the dialogue planed out or story planed out for developing such a thing. However, if you guize make the character, I can indefinitely do the job.
But no I have no dialogue material but you can check the one thing I have on dA. My username is "Ionosphere-Negate"
Do you mean this (http://ionosphere-negate.deviantart.com/journal/32561566/)?
Shows promise.
Through the grammatical mistakes and OVERUSE OF CAPITALIZATION, it almost seemed like you were approaching a state of knowing what you were talking about. Well... I wouldn't go that far. But it did seem like the rambling was approaching coherency.
OK, I wouldn't say that either.
My mom always told me if I didn't have anything nice to say, to not say anything at all. So I'll just leave the criticism to someone a bit more tactful than I would be.
Actually, you know, I guess with your innate knowledge of the concepts of Physics you could have done writing for Star Trek: Voyager
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You all have plans for Karuna Fragate control in the future like in The blade itself? I easily played that mission 20 times by now. Torpedoes away!
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You all have plans for Karuna Fragate control in the future like in The blade itself? I easily played that mission 20 times by now. Torpedoes away!
We actually had a second mission, an immediate sequel to The Blade Itself, that didn't quite make the cut for R1.
It has an extremely intricate but also very easy to use system in which you can swap your tactical pane between the Katana's ability and a second set of spells on the Altan Orde. They each have their own cooldown timer, so while one's ticking down you can swap to the other and fire off a different one.
There's also going to be something which will make Scotty happy.
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:confused:
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I assume you are referring to Star Trek Scotty.
...I'm guessing you can do tactical jumps about the field of engagement.
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I assume you are referring to Star Trek Scotty.
...I'm guessing you can do tactical jumps about the field of engagement.
Nope, we're referring to HLP Scotty. Tactical jumps are something we could pull off but aren't practical in the BP techbase.
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Nope, we're referring to HLP Scotty. Tactical jumps are something we could pull off but aren't practical in the BP techbase.
Hmm? Why's that?
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Nope, we're referring to HLP Scotty. Tactical jumps are something we could pull off but aren't practical in the BP techbase.
Hmm? Why's that?
It was just a decision we made early on, because we felt if they were practical they should be used, and that would not always make for fun play. We didn't want to restrict it to a single class of ubership either.
Maybe later.
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I thought it would be something like that. It could make for a pretty sweet CMOA for a certain GTVA Admiral though. :nervous:
I'm sorry. :(
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I thought it would be something like that. It could make for a pretty sweet CMOA for a certain GTVA Admiral though. :nervous:
I'm sorry. :(
It won't happen until it happens, at which point it will have happened!
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new song suggestion:
Right Here, Right Now by Fatboy Slim
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new song suggestion:
Right Here, Right Now by Fatboy Slim
Good song, but in what situation? Would be hard to implenent such a song.
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Right Here, Right Now by Fatboy Slim
How? Where? :P AND IT HAS LYRICS. SACRILEGE.
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Is WiH2 going to be .12 .13 or .14?
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It's definitely not going to run on .12.
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It's definitely not going to run on .12.
Oh kind and merciful oracle of code, The E, please say that .14 starts release candidates in or before Q1 2011.
(or best estimate)
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We sure are burning through SCP releases :D
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We sure are burning through SCP releases :D
They are just numbers :P
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There must be more Antipodes-Releases because I don't think that my CPU can handle more High-Res graphics und such things :lol:
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The SCP exe's aren't really a huge problem I do believe. I've gotten Derelict to work with both MediaVPs 3.6.12 and SCP 3.6.12 Inferno AT THE SAME TIME. Unless of course, a mod is specifically designed for a very specific version of the SCP exe's and only that version.
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The SCP exe's aren't really a huge problem I do believe. I've gotten Derelict to work with both MediaVPs 3.6.12 and SCP 3.6.12 Inferno AT THE SAME TIME. Unless of course, a mod is specifically designed for a very specific version of the SCP exe's and only that version.
wat
Why would using the 3.6.12 MediaVPs with a 3.6.12 build be a problem...? Inferno builds aren't used for running Inferno; they should really have a different name.
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Derelict doesn't actually 'work' with the 3.6.12 MVPs; there's a mission in there that's b0rked by beam fade. I hit it a while back. That mission with the cruisers and the beam cannon.
and Infamus, the only problems with running mods on SCP/MVPs would be:
* running a mod that requires newer mediavps on older mediavps.
* running some older mods on the 3.6.12 MediaVPs which break some aspects of compatibility, like the aforementioned beam fade.
If you aren't sure about some aspect of the engine (and from your posting history, this happens a lot) feel free to ask.
Although, if you were replying to Deadly In A Shadow's post, he wasn't talking about compatibility at all- he was making a comment about the increasing use of HTL models and resource-intensive graphics.
I've gotten Derelict to work with both MediaVPs 3.6.12 and SCP 3.6.12 Inferno AT THE SAME TIME.
FS works well with the 3.6.12 MVPs and 3.6.12 FSO because they were pretty much designed to work together. The identical version number should have tipped you off. The newer FSO builds (such as 3.6.12, compared to 3.6.10) don't add much load at all compared to what the CPU goes through trying to render the MediaVPs, so running them AT THE SAME TIME is not really special at all.
And then there's Antipodes 6, which is just awesome.
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Wondered if the GTVA or UEF ever pondered on making a U-Boat, which 'submerges' in subspace and pops out. That'd be freaky, to have ships waiting at exactly the right spot without having to calculate a jump, reduce speed etc.
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I've toyed with the idea of a "submarine" tactical role, a ship that's mainly drives, popping in and out of subspace to attack and evade, but so far as we know it's not possible to simply sit in subspace.
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I've toyed with the idea of a "submarine" tactical role, a ship that's mainly drives, popping in and out of subspace to attack and evade
It's the Atreus!
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Wondered if the GTVA or UEF ever pondered on making a U-Boat, which 'submerges' in subspace and pops out. That'd be freaky, to have ships waiting at exactly the right spot without having to calculate a jump, reduce speed etc.
And how would you fight that? Subspace inhibitors?
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SSMs that blow up in subspace!
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And how would you fight that? Subspace inhibitors?
Be quick on the draw, and have good beam coverage.
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Not any different from anything they faced in the Second Incursion really.
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This Music would be good I think:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDwl-31afEc&feature=related
Would fit a situation where a really BIG ship (shivan heheh) exits subspace and fires on every other vessel nearby. Or something like a desperate battle situation :yes:
And this music, its from Crysis:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z51solWn8Z4
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One of the best video-game soundtracks (and the best song of it). Jeremy Soule is one hell of a composer.
But I still hope that the Sunshine OST will find a place somewhere (especially 'The surface of the Sun') :nervous:
EDIT: The Total Annihilation (great game btw :D ) OST (also done by Mr. Soule) is also pure enjoyment.
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I only listened to about 10 second of both and already I like them.
oh another sugestion: Keep Hope alive by The Crystal Method. Yes it has lyrics, but I know for sure that you BP storyline guys, as much as you have done with the accepted unofficial/non-canon Foxtrot Sierra Three, you should be able to implement it somewhere.
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I'd like to toss in a more reasonable and sane vote and say you can probably dig through your Steam files for Alien Swarm's Timor_Battle and make good use of that somewhere. There's got to be a run for it or interception mission in need of a soundtrack. :P
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I would like to see more ships exploding, and less ships jumping out.
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Destroy their engines and they'll blow up.
Even in Delenda Est you can - theoretically anyway - destroy all Deimos corvettes, though I only managed to get three as my best outcome on very easy....
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The Deimos corvettes in The Blade Itself don't run away...
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I would like to see more ships exploding, and less ships jumping out.
Shoot out the engines and they won't jump out! You can't blame them for being sensible (except for cases where you can blame us for guardianing them :nervous:)
There is, in fact, a general rule of thumb for when a ship is allowed to jump out - we require that it not have performed a jump recently (usually within the span of the mission for most ship types; some advanced classes can recharge very rapidly.)
There may still be a few irritatingly guardianed engines, but in Delenda Est for example you can get most of the engines if you're very dedicated.
And yeah in general we really wanted to avoid having multi-thousand-man crews blowing up left and right.
The Deimos corvettes in The Blade Itself don't run away...
They only recently jumped in. The Triteia on the other hand has better subspace agility.
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The Deimos corvettes in The Blade Itself don't run away...
That's more of a tech demo than canon... :nervous:
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The Deimos corvettes in The Blade Itself don't run away...
That's more of a tech demo than canon... :nervous:
It's perfectly canon, and plays into Delenda Est in a pretty key way. See above for why the corvettes don't jump out.
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I am against changing the "ships try to jump out to save themselves"-tactics. It may feel frustrating when they do - but that's war for you. Even more importantly - it feels increadibly good when you DO get one of those little bastard's engines down.
Which is actually one thing that I think WiH2 would really profit from: Give bonusses when you achieve something like that. Only crippling a ship may lead to that ship appearing in another mission, or being able to foil some strategy and maybe even completely change some missions.
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that is a terrific idea! just like Ransom's "Windmills" 'command simulator!'
here, have a cookie!
yes, we absolutely must add things like this; it's all the rage nowadays.
also make ships that are supposed to flee due to a SEXP and are not a primary goal, worth more points than normal, but they have to be large ships, no fighters or bombers unless they belong to a marked squad of importance to the story.
this reminds me of Nexus: the Jupiter Indecent. if you destroy an enemy's entire fleet you get the prize, otherwise, no. to do this, you must destroy the small ships first; if you hit the big ones first, it will demoralize the smaller craft causing them to bug-out.
divide and conquer!
EDIT: ohemgee i just rhymed twice
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I usually let the ships run off when they flee. But I'm a softy.. :rolleyes:
I'm curious if we'll get to see desertion on the UEF side. Presure is bound to press people to make ill decisions in the trend of "doing us all a favour". I can imagine bad morale might make some starship crews lose faith in the flag officers of the UEF, deciding to cause a mutiny. Imagine having to make decisions on what to do with the deserter. Do you destroye that ship taking no risk? Maybe you disable and recapture it? Perhaps you bring it's hull integrity below 15% so it surrenders. Or a good show of destroying GTVA ships awaiting the rendevous might make them regain faith in the UEF.
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I just want to see a massive Shivan invasion of the Sol system done in WiH's gritty, sombre, 'realistic' tone. I have a feeling you guys are leading up to something a bit more sophisticated than that, though.
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I want meson torpedos, or a high tech long range missile like weapon.
For example, something launched at 10 or 15k from the target, at a 300 or 400 mph speed, which spits in 4 real warheads and 12 decoy ones... Ships would need special tubes to launch that. These tube could be used to launch meson torpedos too (that's self explanatory, high speed, long range, homing, extra powerful missiles, but no decoy warheads in these) !
I want subspace interdictors too, ships that can seal off a node while it's in position, with their modified jump engine (so if there's a danger, it could take some time to reconfigure the engine before it jumps)...
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I would rather see (based on the WIH story elements) a split between the UEF fleets...
While byrne insists in handling the conflict in a peaceful way, perhaps mars and jupiter will go as far as waging war on earth to secure military assets they feel will make them stay in the fight...
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For example, something launched at 10 or 15k from the target, at a 300 or 400 mph speed, which spits in 4 real warheads and 12 decoy ones.
UEF does have MIRV torpedoes called Hydra. They have same range as equivalent Apocalypses. Narayana's main guns and torpedoes already have 12km range and so does its Hydra torpedo variant. There are no decoys however, they all mean business.
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Nuke mentioned fighter-launched decoys to distract PD while a torpedo strike came in. You may want to play with that idea for gunships?
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IMHO, anti cruiser cluster torpedos ( splitting in both decoy and real warheads about 1500m from the target) would be great.
I found it ! The most awful sound of BP2 : bp_clusterboom.ogg in bp2-audio1.vp/data/sounds ! Sometimes I muted the sound effects just not to hear this ! It's f***ing saturated, could you please replace it in the next release of WiH ?
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I would rather see (based on the WIH story elements) a split between the UEF fleets...
While byrne insists in handling the conflict in a peaceful way, perhaps mars and jupiter will go as far as waging war on earth to secure military assets they feel will make them stay in the fight...
As much as I can understand and even see how that could happen, it would immediately spell doom for the Fed war effort. If there were to be a coup, it would have to be quick and without losses, possibly just in the higher ranks. An all-out war between Mars and Earth would result in swift and final victory for the GTVA.
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I found it ! The most awful sound of BP2 : bp_clusterboom.ogg in bp2-audio1.vp/data/sounds ! Sometimes I muted the sound effects just not to hear this ! It's f***ing saturated, could you please replace it in the next release of WiH ?
I liked the new clusterboom sound.
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Yes, that would not mean well, and would be the thing to avoid! especially if the gef manage to somehow repeat their stunts with the vasudans here: convincing they work for one to destroy the other, whatever they may be!
Perhaps at some point the player is going to have to fight hard to somehow preserve the unity of the fleets by undoing a form of conspiracy...
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That actually sounds like something right up the Fedayeens alley.
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I found it ! The most awful sound of BP2 : bp_clusterboom.ogg in bp2-audio1.vp/data/sounds ! Sometimes I muted the sound effects just not to hear this ! It's f***ing saturated, could you please replace it in the next release of WiH ?
I liked the new clusterboom sound.
I really don't pay attention to the sounds, although I tend to like the classics better if they are good in the first place. Also, I don't like the red shock waves from explosions; they need more variety
shock-wave color suggestions:
GTVA large war vessels death: bright indigo
GTVA cap ships use meson reactors right?
UEF ship death (all of them): teal
UEF ships and bases have green-hot fusion reactors (look at the engine color; no wonder they are so much faster)
GTVA small war vessels / strike craft and antimatter bombs: original blue
small GTVA ships use blue-hot fusion reactors and antimatter bombs release pure energy
Anything else and nuclear bombs: new red
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check this track out. I was looking aa videos for the 300 spartan movie and this song stuck. the instrumental could make a real nice soundtrack for a do or die mission (a "come and get them" type mission).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6coXoaVsprc
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No, It's too heavy for FS. More songs like Hans Zimmer would be ideal for WiH2. Rock-like songs don't suits.
For me... I want more FS2-ish feelings, new awesome capsships for UEF Fleet and effective explosions of GTVA capsships :D.
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I would like Raynor to use some nice terran textures. It is great ship and it deserves it.
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I would like Raynor to use some nice terran textures. It is great ship and it deserves it.
Wait what.
Define "terran textures", please.
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I assume he wants it to be coloured entirely in greyscale. Or better yet, be covered entirely with TCov1A.
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check this track out. I was looking aa videos for the 300 spartan movie and this song stuck. the instrumental could make a real nice soundtrack for a do or die mission (a "come and get them" type mission).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6coXoaVsprc
That's from Halo 2. Blow me away from Martin O'Donnel and Michael Salvatori.
And I too don't think it really fits with WiH.
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Why not some song from Yann Tiersen or Max Richter (Waltz with Bachir) ?
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Capital03-03 looks quite odd, so does hellheim01a. But this is my personal feeling
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Well, we like how it looks, so consider yourself outvoted.
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I'm open to the possibility that there are more awesome alternatives, but it's probably too late to make a significant change now.
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check this track out. I was looking aa videos for the 300 spartan movie and this song stuck. the instrumental could make a real nice soundtrack for a do or die mission (a "come and get them" type mission).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6coXoaVsprc
That's from Halo 2. Blow me away from Martin O'Donnel and Michael Salvatori.
And I too don't think it really fits with WiH.
Blow Me Away is by Breaking Benjamin. It was rearranged (if that) for Halo 2. :nervous:
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Whatever. It's Halo music, and although we are great fans of Martin O'Donnels' work on that series, we've sort of decided not to use any of it, since those tracks are, in my mind at least, far too heavily connected to Halo, and far too recognizable as "Halo music". I'd like nothing more than to use the Mjolnir mix, but that's not going to happen either....
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I'm all for non-affiliated tracks in part two. I don't like thinking "i know that, that's from x, y or z game'. I liked that about BP1 and 2p1, I didn't know any of the tracks and it felt like more part of the mod rather than stolen/borrowed from somewhere else.
I'd like to see a bit more [redacted] in the next release if possible.
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Blow Me Away is by Breaking Benjamin. It was rearranged (if that) for Halo 2. :nervous:
Since the song was named "Blow Me Away [Performed By Breaking Benjamin]" I assumed it was composed by the two Halo composers and only performed by Breaking Benjamin. Didn't know they also composed the song themselfs and the Halo people just re-arranged/borrowed/whatever it.
Anyway apart from what's already said it's also too different from the current soundtrack to fit into WiH2 I think (or any BP for that matter). If any Halo music fits anywere in BP, then only into a cutscene of BP3, but that's a big if.
I didn't know any of the tracks
Just because you didn't know doesn't mean it didn't happen. The track "Razor battle" in AoA for example came from "Final Fantasy: Advent Children".
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I'm open to the possibility that there are more awesome alternatives, but it's probably too late to make a significant change now.
I agree with Kobrar, current textures are horrible. I hate that scheme - ugly and non FSish. I can do a few propositions of new schemes, but not now.
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...
No. Any change in the way the new GTVA fleet looks will be vetoed. With fire, if necessary.
Reason being that the look that was established back in AoA is rather iconic, and the fact that the ships look rather different from the FS2-GTVA in terms of colour palette is a very good thing. At the same time, the new ships look connected enough that you can believe they were designed by the same design team, which is arguably something that even the FS2 fleet doesn't manage.
In addition, I like the steely blue ships we have. Going back to the green and bronze tones of the Hecate, or the green and grey of the Deimos, just feels wrong. If you wish to change those textures in your own mod, feel free. But I, for one, don't see why we should change perfection.
I do reserve the right to change my opinion if a suitably awesome alternative is presented.
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the inclusion of the blue tones in GTVA ships are IMO riming with the definition of the "next-gen" tech displayed in the raynor, titan and the like! the usual looking texture might give the ships a somewhat blend look!
also, since it was defined as a standard in AOA, I don't see what use there would be in changing it in WIH. the BP continuity has to stay coherent!
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I agree with Kobrar, current textures are horrible. I hate that scheme - ugly and non FSish.
Sounds like a "haters gotta hate" situation to me.
If you can't stand the awesomeness of BP designs, shame on you mate.
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I agree with Kobrar, current textures are horrible. I hate that scheme - ugly and non FSish. I can do a few propositions of new schemes, but not now.
The ships are fine, very next-gen. Why make them more 'canon'? Don't tell me you dyed your Colossus lila as well to match the Orion?
(http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/8168/lilacolossus.jpg)
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That looks so ding-a-ling-a-ling hello!
Also, who do I have to kill to get that shadowing?
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Dear god no! The orion looks good in the lila way. I liked the blue/steele version in WiH too but a lila colossus....
I like the style of the fighters and big ships. When you encounter terran vessels in Blue Planet the first time you already see what's the next-gen stuff, I love this Style, really magnificent.
I can't understand why people hate this next-gen style? I mean, the ships are dark, gritty and awesome coloured like the good old ones, they are totally FSish
But the UEF-ships are the beautifulness.
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I love the new scheme for the GTVA ships, and it works too:
the old ships used basic fusion reactors and green beam cannons and had the scheme to match.
now GTVA ships use very advanced fusion reactors and/or meson reactors and heft blue beam cannons which are obviously more powerful than the old ones. the blue-ish scheme is a excellent replacement from the old one. it is very fitting for the GTVA's tech level; it really makes the ships boastful of what firepower/armor/technology they are packing.
I mean, come on; if you have the stuff why not light up the room like a freaking Christmas tree? and still having that grity apperance makes them look like they mean buisness.
seriously, stop blamming the new stuff. some change is good.\
also the lila scheme would only be good for a royalty or luxury ship, or something flown by a chick. royalty however might want to fly something with a Tyrian-schemed paint-job.
(yes Tyrian is an actual color and color group too. it is also known as Royal or Imperial Purple and comes in many shades. extracted from sea-shells)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrian_purple (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrian_purple)
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The lila scheme was a joke, since the Orion is lila and Betrayal was of opinion ships should look more canon.. I do hope you get that, Infamus. :P Yes I love the next-gen look also, it gives BP it's own unique feel, unlike many mods using terracotta and navy grey textures.
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That Colossus just looks positively faaabulous.
I really like the next-gen GTVA ship look, and I don't see how it's "non FS-ish". The FS2 generation of ships looked vastly different from FS1, compare the Hecate to the Orion, or the Hatshepsut to the Typhon - they look completely different from their predecessors.
And the colour scheme really seems logical as has been pointed out. The blue and metallic is fitting for the new generator energy output and beams.
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I guess that could be an effect of vasudan and terran designs mixing up: the hecate is no longer a utilitarian box like the orion...
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The Hapshepsut is still more sane than the Hecate's superstructure obsession. hell, the Typhon is.
I think the Hecate was some design student's orgasm.
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I know really, the first time I saw the fighter bay... well, it was kinda like this: :wtf:
how does anything fit in there?
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It reminded me vaguely of some headdress...
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The Hapshepsut is still more sane than the Hecate's superstructure obsession. hell, the Typhon is.
I think the Hecate was some design student's orgasm.
And even the Orion is too, seeing as how it isn't an over-complex mess of random parts that make it harder for fighters and its own turrets to protect it like the Hecate.
Those god damned elephant ears :<
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If the Hecate could transform into a giant mecha, maybe then it would make sense.
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We got it all wrong, the lead designer of the Hecate had a vision that was planted into his mind by shivans to reduce Terran military efficiency.
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If a Orion gets you on its broadside, you're ****ed; with a Hecate... not so much.
Orion Broadside: 2x Big Green, 2x Terran Slash. yes you are doomed if you are anything smaller than a destroyer. The Orion makes up in firepower what it lacks in armor.
We got it all wrong, the lead designer of the Hecate had a vision that was planted into his mind by shivans to reduce Terran military efficiency.
lulz!
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I always saw the Hecate's advantage in its fighter/crew capacity and advanced electronics. I saw it as a Heavy Carrier, a more modern and more sensable (Blue Planet strat) destroyer which stayed back and sortied large numbers of fighters. It makes sense for a GTVA attack force to utilise these destroyers over Orions in the newly defined battlespace of BP. A destroyer as an attack warship is a dead destroyer, unless you are Admiral Steel. The Hecate as a warship is just for defence. To continue my ramble, if you want to keep the chess game going you keep your king from being captured.
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Sorry for going of the current topic about Hecate Destroyers (I like the good ol' Orions more, but if you are a fighter and want to engage a Hecate, simply forget it.)
If you need some chant soundtracks or something, what about this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-6dKVNt1C4
I think that the Dawn of War soundtrack has enough epicness to fit in BP, especially in WiH.
Some Ambient
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pu4MB3kEiw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nlbQwAwhTQ&feature=related
(two ambient tracks per youtube video)
some epic themes (two tracks per video too)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lh0KS8tORuk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTvdtr_d12Q&feature=related
There are more by far.
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Sacrifice had some awesome tracks. Good for hectic battles and some surreal ambience.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eULtqxc20SE&p=B7AD310EE7E4E626&playnext=1&index=10 <- pompous, great for a shift of balance in favor of the enemy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gG5qpmUNJM&p=B7AD310EE7E4E626&index=4&feature=BF <- I imagine this track playing in debris field made of allied ships/civillians you were to late to save.
I don't know how open to suggestions you guys are music wise. :P
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We're rather open. But we also like to minimize the sheer number of tracks of, shall we say, questionable legality. Not to mention that we'd like to keep the total number of tracks down as well, to minimize download size, and to better build themes. Using tracks only once is just bad design.
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I only want to help. :nod:
I didn't say that I want to hear all of these tracks in the second part of WiH, it's your opinion what music you and the team will use. But it would be nice to hear them.
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The Universe at War OST is legal to get over the internets (the creator himself uploaded the music). Ancient-Shivan War used a Masari track in the main hall.
War in Heaven can use the Hierarchy tracks. They are pretty rocktronic, like the Emperor: Battle for Dune Harkonnen tracks used in Age of Aquarius.
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I don't think the Hierarchy (and even more so the Novus) music fits into WiH. Maybe for anti Shivan missions in BP3 (assuming the Shivans will be in BP3), but not for WiH.
The Masari might offer something to WiH though.
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Sorry for going of the current topic about Hecate Destroyers
No worries, it's probably a good thing
I think this sharing is a great idea. I like the BP music already in WIH, but as with anything creative ideas are usually helpful.
Massive Attack - Angel This track makes me think of freespace quite a bit, particularly warships in zero-g.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ-0nUMHlzk&p=A3FBBFB55F75F3C2
Fear Factory - Snitches are a dying breed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGdvHwqEXms
'State of Play' Soundtrack- Research
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNWlbpigWBE
Tool - Triad Might not exactly be BP, but I could see it used in certain situations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TVeRbugcys
Aalborg Fantasy Soundtracks Take a look around he has a lot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6-ItQHUCFQ
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After talking in IRC for a bit, I want to see a meson bomb detonated in atmosphere. I don't care which atmosphere, I just want to see it.
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After talking in IRC for a bit, I want to see a meson bomb detonated in atmosphere. I don't care which atmosphere, I just want to see it.
earth is a prime candidate
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Massive Attack - Angel This track makes me think of freespace quite a bit, particularly warships in zero-g.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ-0nUMHlzk&p=A3FBBFB55F75F3C2
When I hear this (apart from getting nervous) I see a fleet moving into position for an orbital bombardment in a cutscene and just before they open fire, we jump in with a fleet to stop them.
Fear Factory - Snitches are a dying breed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGdvHwqEXms
Might fit very well into the example above to play the moment we arrive at the scene and the enemy fleet turns away from the planet/moon to face us.
'State of Play' Soundtrack- Research
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNWlbpigWBE
Not so sure about that.... maybe a briefing? Maybe....
Tool - Triad Might not exactly be BP, but I could see it used in certain situations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TVeRbugcys
I don't think it would fit in WiH.
Aalborg Fantasy Soundtracks Take a look around he has a lot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6-ItQHUCFQ
Nice track for atmo or a cutscene, though the base drum is a bit too loud for my taste for this kind of music.
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Fear Factory - Snitches are a dying breed
I got to agree. This almost makes me think of Forced Entry levels of awesome.
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Massive Attack - Angel This track makes me think of freespace quite a bit, particularly warships in zero-g.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ-0nUMHlzk&p=A3FBBFB55F75F3C2
When I hear this (apart from getting nervous) I see a fleet moving into position for an orbital bombardment in a cutscene and just before they open fire, we jump in with a fleet to stop them.
That's exactly the thought I get! Angel of death without mercy and justice without direction.
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Another Recommendation for music: Supreme Commander, it's from Jeremy Soule too (the guys is as awesome as Steele)
Here is an example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDDQShIqjgk&feature=related
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I just thought of something: I want to see a Solaris up close. It seems like a cool model, but you only ever see them from far a way. You should let us launch from or land on one at least once. kthxbye
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I don't want to see a Solaris up close. We already see too much Karunas up close, to the greatest pain of my comp.
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In Aristea, during the exposition, you can fly around the Toutatis after it forces the Hood to run away.
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And you can go up close if they survive in Massive Battle. :p
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Or pull out FRED and place one. Had fun myself placing the Solaris, Toutatis and Eris pitted against a grey-textured Colossus with modern beams. Great way to see how able they are.
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And you can go up close if they survive in Massive Battle. :p
Assuming your computer doesn't explode.
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More chances to play with the Tev's fighters in less life-or-death situations!
I always enjoy testing the capabilities of enemy hardware. Knowledge is power.
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On the musical note, I did a bit of a doubletake seeing tracks from Machinae Supremacy in the .vp. Good stuff, but one of the last places I'd expect to see it...
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Explodo-beams! :D
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This was mentioned way back at the begining of the thread but is there any chance that you might run into the alpha 1 and the blue lions from FS2? assumin ghe/she survived
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18 years later, from the standpoint of a then-Squadron Leader (in canon, anywhere from Lieutenant Samsa (who I've always thought should have been a Lt. Commander) to Commanders Beckett, Vincey, and Habu) would be something like Rear Admiral. Or higher. They would not be in a fighter still.
Nor would Alpha 1 still be assigned to the Blue Lions even if by some miraculous occurance he/she was still flying a fighter. You go through, what, seven squadron assignments in the retail campaign alone (which is stretching it to put it past a couple years of in-game time).
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18 years later, from the standpoint of a then-Squadron Leader (in canon, anywhere from Lieutenant Samsa (who I've always thought should have been a Lt. Commander) to Commanders Beckett, Vincey, and Habu) would be something like Rear Admiral. Or higher. They would not be in a fighter still.
Nor would Alpha 1 still be assigned to the Blue Lions even if by some miraculous occurance he/she was still flying a fighter. You go through, what, seven squadron assignments in the retail campaign alone (which is stretching it to put it past a couple years of in-game time).
Not necessarily. That's certainly true of a modern institution, but we have no idea if the GTVA practices "up or out".
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Well, one would think Xinny and Zero would be squadron leaders eighteen years after Into the Lion's Den.
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I'd put money on SOC working differently than regular Navy.
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18 years later, from the standpoint of a then-Squadron Leader (in canon, anywhere from Lieutenant Samsa (who I've always thought should have been a Lt. Commander) to Commanders Beckett, Vincey, and Habu) would be something like Rear Admiral. Or higher. They would not be in a fighter still.
Nor would Alpha 1 still be assigned to the Blue Lions even if by some miraculous occurrence he/she was still flying a fighter. You go through, what, seven squadron assignments in the retail campaign alone (which is stretching it to put it past a couple years of in-game time).
Well, not everyone can be Rear Admiral. It requires a different skillset beyond flight competence. I thought Xinny and Zero were crack flight leaders who showed great skill in what they did but never really took any administrative effort to climb up the ranks. I remember reading some piece of BP cannon, which said that GTVA veteran pilots often stayed in the military as leaders or flight instructors for future pilots. Surely after so many years they just found themselves pigeonholed as veteran pilots of the second shivan incursion. Moving them up to somekind of warship or tactical officership might make them less effective given their backgrounds as pilots.
A separate bit of fiction I read regarding admiral steele says that he went to military school specifically for military tactics training. Steele was also a former pilot of the second shivan incursion, but his schooling provided a different skillset which made him more effective in a position of leadership.
While seniority matters, background matters almost as much if not more.
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I remember reading some piece of BP cannon, which said that GTVA veteran pilots often stayed in the military as leaders or flight instructors for future pilots.
From memory, this applies more to the situation close to the punch up between the UEF and GTVA; they found the Fighter Corps on experienced operators, rotating pilots after a tour of duty in a frontline squadron to the rear in order to train new pilots. So as the UEF's Fighter Corp, which actually is founded around experienced operators, starts to decline as the very experienced guys stay at the front until they die (nowhere to rotate them to, really, nor is it a feasible option), the GTVA's pilot quality steadily rises, as the sink or swim situation leaves only those who can hack it, and their knowledge and skillsets which are passed on to nuggets/bograts/whateverthey'recalledinyourregion before they move onto places in fighter squadrons.
In fact, we discussed 'POCT: Post Operational Conversion Training', in BP:Tev, where newer pilots are trained by veterans who run several exercises and lessons of their own in order to impart their knowledge in a solution that's far easier to implement that rewriting the entire line of the sausage factory/pilot training regime.
Moving them up to somekind of warship or tactical officership might make them less effective given their backgrounds as pilots.
This is quite a likely conclusion to draw. When the GTVA promotes pilots out of squadrons to executive and admin positions, their squadrons are no longer formed around experienced pilots who fought the Shivans, and have lessons to pass down.
And you have pilots who genuinely love flying and have few aspirations for executive careers are known to dodge promotions left, right, and centre in order to stay flying.
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And you have pilots who genuinely love flying and have few aspirations for executive careers are known to dodge promotions left, right, and centre in order to stay flying.
Exactly. These are the kind of sort I believed Xinny and Zero to be.
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Isn't it specifically mentioned that Xinny and Zero were trying to rescue Al faddil against orders? That might be why they were flying fighters instead of whatever they were actually supposed to be doing.
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Isn't it specifically mentioned that Xinny and Zero were trying to rescue Al faddil against orders? That might be why they were flying fighters instead of whatever they were actually supposed to be doing.
In the debrief, yeah. It's actively noticed during the course of the mission (too few fighters for a proper op) and if you look, I'm pretty sure they're using a nonstandard lineup too; that either means veterans or desperation. IIRC Zero is in an Erinyes and Xinny is in a Perseus. I forget what the other two are in.
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An Atalanta, an Aurora and either another Erinyes or Perseus, if I recall correctly.
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Frankly it's hard to know just what the officers of the retail era do now. Some might have perished in an accident, others may have retired or fallen chronically ill (let's assume for now that cancer, Altzheimer, Parkinsons etc can be treated in the 24th century). Xinny and Zero probably took their place in the cockpit just for the special occasion, where ordinarily they probably train pilots or hold a command position. It's highly likely that Zero and Xinny had to pull a lot of ropes to be borrowed a few fightercraft, likely to be pinned with medals if succeeding or to take responsibility (and be labeled as having acted rogue) in case of dying. That way whoever gave them their chance doesn't verbally hang for lending them a hand and a small dozen of fighters and could afford to turn a blind eye when these top aces went on their rescue attempt.
I can imagine there's always the option that a pilot who refuses command but is deemed too old for the frontlines might become a testpilot for R&D's technology, safely tucked back in the home system. Also like NGTM-1R said, we're not sure how the GTVA works and how it compares to our modern standards. By the pre-release texts written for WiH I interpreted that the GTVA has it's veterans called back to train newer pilots. I'm guessing if a war goes really bad for the GTVA (for example: invasion of the systems at the core of the GTVA) these veterans are put back into active duty as squadron or wing leaders. It's good morale for a rookie to have an ace on their wing.
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ok whether its legit and possible aside (i thus remove it as a proposal) would it not be possible if it did happen? or is that only me?
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If I was Alpha 1, I'd call it quits and retire after surviving the Capella Supernova. A streak of good luck only holds up so long. :p
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-Sara-, Scotty Yeah, I see Xinny and Zero as more of exceptions than the norm. I remember Batutta referring to them as 'Heroes with an untold story' or something like that in the commentary. I would imagine most of the FS2 veterans have moved on. 18 years is a long time, but I would have to think many have chosen to make a career out of it just like any other war. They could budge their way up to Officer ranks and command a warship or push pencils at a desk, flight instructors etc. All the things you two have been saying. 20 years of service is not unheard of in today's US military, in fact if you do happen to serve that long you get a sweet pension plan. NGTM-1R is right, and this is army not air force, but you all might find some of these figures interesting.
Military Discharge codes(All the reasons an enlisted man leaves the service) , scroll down to 'Mandatory Retirement' http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:zWkybcZFhmEJ:www.coalitionofvets.org/documents/MilitarySeparationCodes/Military_Separation_Codes_Numeric_Codes.doc+long+serving+enlisted+personnel&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Maximum enlistment age- [NOT Mandatory retirement Age!] http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joiningthemilitary/f/faqenlage.htm
I concluded it's possible under some relaxation of these rules for FS2 vets to fly in BP, but they aren't far away from exiting the cockpit unless medicine has advanced sufficiently enough to increase longevity and vitality (an entirely believable reality for the 24th century).
Beskargam- It's certainly possible. I mean if Xinny and Zero made it than why not? It would be strange to run into the great and nameless 'Alpha 1' in BP; and what would Alpha 1 do? Would he/she defect to the UEF, or annihilate every Durga bomber in sight? Wern't you Alpha 1 in FS2? What would YOU do? Something interesting to ponder, maybe even to allude to, but if I have to fight Alpha 1 in WIH:R2 I will do so while giggling.
What about Fs1 Alpha1? If Admiral Calder is a veteran of the great war, than why not bring the first Alpha1 out for another show? Wheel him/her out of the bed and into the cockpit of that old and trusty Herc Mk1 and plead that he/she defend Earth... one last time...
SAVE US ALPHA1!!
[My bad, too much fun]
The beginning of retail FS2 said that the 'Hammerheads' squadron dated back to the destruction of the Lucifer 32 years before that command briefing. It's entirely possible and even realistic for the Aquitaine's Blue Lions to still be around. What the Aquitaine is up to at this point in BP cannon is beyond me. My guess is something to do with Shivans/exploration. I just can't see Robbert Loggia taking on Earth, especially after seeing Independence Day... aah never mind Petrarch would be retired by now. Sure it's possible though. The nice thing about the BP setting is that there are so many opportunities to connect it to retail cannon in a meaningful way.
I remember in AoA being touched when I saw the GTD Minnow, a Terran destroyer in Fs1 that merely got mentioned in a command briefing once. It was given life, in an ironic way, by Corey and it's presence in that mission. It's nice to see that kind of stuff once in awhile. Adds significance to see that everything fits and all that. One of the reasons why I like ASW so much, as well as BP.
Sorry this turned out to be kind of long. My summary is 'Yes'.
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With he frequency of Alpha 1 FS2 transfer to different squadrons with different roles, I wonder if he wasn't part of some GTVA officer fast track program. He sure made squadron leader fast.
Or maybe he went back to civilian life, became a management consultant, had a family, and then opened a chic resturant in the tendy part of Betq Aquilae. It's a good life.
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Or died in a toasty but heroic stellar event!
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Also a good life. Toast is good.
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Or maybe he went back to civilian life, became a management consultant, had a family, and then opened a chic resturant in the tendy part of Betq Aquilae. It's a good life.
I wouldn't be surprised if he was just a volunteer who raised his hand when his alliance needed him. In fact I can think of a few great pilots who did almost exactly what you've said, after the war.
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Was he drunk and flying crop dusters but dusting the wrong crops?
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Was he drunk and flying crop dusters but dusting the wrong crops?
Nice Independence Day reference. That movie brings back memories. :yes:
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Oh yes. :yes:
But really, after you'd seen the kind of atrocities committed during the war, and having so many of your friends die, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Alpha 1 didn't speak of his military service at all afterwards.
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true, but we could use him as a dues ex machina, or maybe have him actually fly with Laporte. (I'm sure FS1 Alpha 1 is a dude)
as for FS2 Alpha 1, maybe he did stay behind and 'almost' got vaporized, but a bunch Sathanas husks shadow the blast some just torching his ship. He gets a shivan fighter from within one of the husk, reprograms it, and finds his way into shivan space to find Bosch. that pretty much leaves him out of the BP storyline.
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Assuming FS1's Alpha 1 was in his mid 20s during FS1, he would be pushing 70 by the time of War In Heaven. I have my doubts about his ability to fly a fighter.
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as for FS2 Alpha 1, maybe he did stay behind and 'almost' got vaporized, but a bunch Sathanas husks shadow the blast some just torching his ship. He gets a shivan fighter from within one of the husk, reprograms it, and finds his way into shivan space to find Bosch. that pretty much leaves him out of the BP storyline.
what is this i dont even
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John Glenn flew a mission at 77. :yes:
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Yeah, but a) he's John Glenn and b) noone expected him to fly against younger pilots, through flak curtains..... you get the point.
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John Glenn flew a mission at 77. :yes:
Yes, but could he fly a second one? :D
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A separate bit of fiction I read regarding admiral steele says that he went to military school specifically for military tactics training. Steele was also a former pilot of the second shivan incursion, but his schooling provided a different skillset which made him more effective in a position of leadership.
Maybe Steele IS Alpha 1 from FS2? ;)
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A separate bit of fiction I read regarding admiral steele says that he went to military school specifically for military tactics training. Steele was also a former pilot of the second shivan incursion, but his schooling provided a different skillset which made him more effective in a position of leadership.
Maybe Steele IS Alpha 1 from FS2? ;)
Read his Dossier. He came up through the ranks as an SOC pilot, until he was grievously injured during the FS2 campaign, at which point he switched tracks to capital ship command.
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You may however, have flown with him on an SOC sortie. ;)
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as for FS2 Alpha 1, maybe he did stay behind and 'almost' got vaporized, but a bunch Sathanas husks shadow the blast some just torching his ship.
Well, after we have established that capital ships are practically small neutron stars anyway, why not give them the ability to shield a supernova - even though the object being shielded is probably more than one AU away from the ship itself.
While we're at it, Alpha 1 probably met up with Bosch, they both became King and Queen of the Shivans (you choose who's who), and they'll lead an attack on mankind, capturing Steele, making him crown prince of the Shivans, and happily rule their eternal empire until the end of time.
You are now imagining a Shivan wedding between Alpha 1 and Bosch, with a happy Shivan bridesmaid catching the bouquet.
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A bouquet of human heads... :drevil:
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:headz: anyone?
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Not much is known about 'Ken' and his intentions anyway, or how he may be connected with the Shivans.
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Not much is known about 'Ken' and his intentions anyway, or how he may be connected with the Shivans.
Yes. Now, what do you want in the rest of War in Heaven?
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Not much is known about 'Ken' and his intentions anyway, or how he may be connected with the Shivans.
Yes. Now, what do you want in the rest of War in Heaven?
More AWACSeses.
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UEF stealth fighter would be nice, along with some black-ops missions. I can totally remember 'Into the lion's den' and i am fairly cartain you guys can make this even more awesome :)
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You can play around with the Ainsarii stealth fighter right now, as it's in the VPs you have - but its stats and default loadout are not final. Currently on internal it's sporting Sidhes in the first bank and a UX Accelerator in the nose mount, and the stealth system needs to be FREDded with a mind to the mission's ESM environment.
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Yes, that is the only mission you can play with the rest of the UEF fighters and bombers, though I wish there are really things to shoot at.
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Shame. Could have used a GTVA gauntlet (and a UEF one, for those Tev-people out there). Anyone interested?
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Shame. Could have used a GTVA gauntlet (and a UEF one, for those Tev-people out there). Anyone interested?
As in a single/multi survival against wave after wave of enemies fighting overwhelming odds? Heck yes.
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How about the capship version, you pilot a Solaris against endless wave of Tev/Shivan capships.
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More Vasudans!
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Considering the ending ingame-cutscene I guess your wish will come true.
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Yes, that is the only mission you can play with the rest of the UEF fighters and bombers, though I wish there are really things to shoot at.
You can shoot the Fed ships. :nervous:
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIGHCoVzqtk
I just found this song, and I felt it could be included in some part of WiH part 2...
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We have so many music suggestions, they could probably warrant their own thread.
Good song though. STARSHIP TROOPERS BABY. :yes:
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Now I know where the Conquest: Frontier Wars Terran theme got its inspiration from :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn2gQIDEmbk
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I would like to see an atmosphere mission in WiH 2, with the sun rising and colors from pink to blue, and a big sun glare on one side of the map...
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Trench run mission.
Maybe even combined with a stealth recon.
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I would like to see an atmosphere mission in WiH 2, with the sun rising and colors from pink to blue, and a big sun glare on one side of the map...
How about a Solar Corona hide-away from persuers. :D All timer based with handicaps occuring over time.
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I would like to see an atmosphere mission in WiH 2, with the sun rising and colors from pink to blue, and a big sun glare on one side of the map...
How about a Solar Corona hide-away from persuers. :D All timer based with handicaps occuring over time.
Considering the Indus' crew was slowly been radiated to death I don't think this'll be likely. Be cool though.
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Add a Gargant
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Why add a Gargant when they have such a gorgeous moon landscape an several buildings.
That's it! A chase through Luna city!
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I need that flagged as un-stealth so i can `+K that stuff :nod:
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I would like to see an atmosphere mission in WiH 2, with the sun rising and colors from pink to blue, and a big sun glare on one side of the map...
How about a Solar Corona hide-away from persuers. :D All timer based with handicaps occuring over time.
Considering the Indus' crew was slowly been radiated to death I don't think this'll be likely. Be cool though.
They came unprepared. :) Few'd follow you if you are insane enough to try it.
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Why add a Gargant when they have such a gorgeous moon landscape an several buildings.
That's it! A chase through Luna city!
Because I actually want to see a Gargant in a campaign
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As with all things in BP, we will do things because they are interesting and make for good gameplay and storytelling, not because they are huge.
A Gargant in and of itself is not interesting. This does not necessarily mean it cannot be made interesting, but we'll cross that bridge if we ever come to it.
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Well, BP is a trilogy, after all. All kinds of big things can happen in Part 3, especially if the Shivans and Vishnans come back to center stage.
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How about a Solar Corona hide-away from persuers. :D All timer based with handicaps occuring over time.
Considering the Indus' crew was slowly been radiated to death I don't think this'll be likely. Be cool though.
They came unprepared. :) Few'd follow you if you are insane enough to try it.
Unprepared is a nice way to say it. I'd call it heavily damaged. And no matter how radiation resistant your hull is, it won't do any good if said hull is full of holes from a recent battle and crashjump.
Also I somehow doubt a fighter could survive very long in the 2 million degree kelvin of the sun's corona.
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Unprepared is a nice way to say it. I'd call it heavily damaged. And no matter how radiation resistant your hull is, it won't do any good if said hull is full of holes from a recent battle and crashjump.
Also I somehow doubt a fighter could survive very long in the 2 million degree kelvin of the sun's corona.
Well, Sara's idea has quite something to it. If it is indeed unthinkable for a fighter, why not do it as another bonus-capship mission? Or make it a specially shielded (proabably stealth) fighter, add an SEXP - as soon as your shields drop... you're mincemeat.
THAT would be a challenge even for experienced players, to keep that up if it came to a dogfight (depending on the other mission design). Combine it with failing jump drives, reactor problems that indicate your shield probably won't hold out much longer, enemies closing in and nearly discovering you - and you can create quite a sense of urgency for one mission.
You could even create urgency without enemies. Add a bunch of SEXPs, in which you have to repair something via 1,2,3,4 etc. in the right order. Always failing? The answer will be in the specifications in your tech room. Maybe a bit cruel, but it will make you either read it or go through heaps and heaps of trial and error.
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Could then have warning buoys which predict where a sunflare will erupt and as if avoiding the enemy isn't enough, you got to maneuver out of the way of those sunflares in time too. :D
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do you have any idea how large solar flares are? there is no maneuvering out of the way.
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True, but gameplay before anything.
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When gameplay doesn't already break reality in a situation, we don't need to add more stuff that does.
Aside from the sheer size of them, you wouldn't get any warning either.
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Well, technically the hard radiation will precede the ejection by some time.
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do you have any idea how large solar flares are? there is no maneuvering out of the way.
You have a subspace drive, you can dodge a flare. :P
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Well, technically the hard radiation will precede the ejection by some time.
Won't that sort of affect the pilot before he flare shows up then, or is it just harmless stuff like x-rays?
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Well, technically the hard radiation will precede the ejection by some time.
Won't that sort of affect the pilot before he flare shows up then, or is it just harmless stuff like x-rays?
It'd definitely be bad news for a pilot, but no worse than a standard battlefield environment, so presumably they're protected.
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there is no such thing as "harmless" radiation at the intensities we're talking about coming out of the sun.
well i guess non-ionizing would be, but that's not happening.
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It is just about a question of how well the ships' armor protect them from it. It is just extremely hard to completely block or reflect X-ray and gamma radiation, so it is about reducing it to non-harmful levels.
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Found a rather exploitable bug in the UX Accelerator. If you fire hellfire missiles and hold the primary fire button, the UX Accelerator has no refill time after 4 shots, allowing for continuous devastating firing. I'm not sure if you were aware of this.
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Found a rather exploitable bug in the UX Accelerator. If you fire hellfire missiles and hold the primary fire button, the UX Accelerator has no refill time after 4 shots, allowing for continuous devastating firing. I'm not sure if you were aware of this.
wwwwwwhaaaaaaaaa
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Found a rather exploitable bug in the UX Accelerator. If you fire hellfire missiles and hold the primary fire button, the UX Accelerator has no refill time after 4 shots, allowing for continuous devastating firing. I'm not sure if you were aware of this.
wwwwwwhaaaaaaaaa
Thaaaaaaaat
Clicky! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBnK0Tb49CY)
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Hoo hoo hoo. Fascinating.
Time for a Mantis entry, I think!
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Ohho, exploitable
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Hm...don't know if this was mentioned before, but as a huge friend of the vasudans, I would love to see them take part in the war with fancy new ship...
To be honest...18 years since capella and they have not a single new ship apart from that logistic thing?
I know WiH is about the civil war between humanity...but please^^
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Vasudans already have shiny new ships lined up. They just didn't make it into WiH.
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Do you mean they didn't make it into WiH or they never will make it? :D
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They may play a part in R2 but they will almost certainly appear in BP3.
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Made my day...but actually in germany it is 01:53...time to go to bed and dream of new vasudan ships.
Any idea how to realize vasudan voice acting?^^
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seeing as how they did the vishnans, vasudans shouldn't be a problem.
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seeing as how they did the vishnans, vasudans shouldn't be a problem.
Well it did take us a while to get that radio telescope.
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Vasudans should be easier than Humans. You don't need voice actors, just a computer voice generator and the vasudan speech to underlay it with. After all when you hear a Vasudan "speak" english it's supposed to be a computer generated translation even in-universe.
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Vasudans should be easier than Humans. You don't need voice actors, just a computer voice generator and the vasudan speech to underlay it with. After all when you hear a Vasudan "speak" english it's supposed to be a computer generated translation even in-universe.
Nah it sounds better if it's a real human's voice passed through that filter that makes it sound like those radios from Star Wars.
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In a worst case scenario they can always be made to use morse code. ;)
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Dirty. . . . Smelly . . . . Zods :ick:
Still, new target types are ALWAYS welcomed in Dekkers house.
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Hm...to be honest...the vasudans expected a third incursion more than anyone else...so they should have even meaner ships than the tevs...
Perhaps they will send their old stuff to sol...
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Hm...to be honest...the vasudans expected a third incursion more than anyone else...so they should have even meaner ships than the tevs...
Perhaps they will send their old stuff to sol...
Oh that reminds me: I want to see Stratcomm's next-gen Vasudan fleet in BP. Although this probably won't change the chance of that happening.
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Those models are indeed in our possession.
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Well a battuta said earlier the Vasudans would be a bit more advanced than the tevs and buntus. Hope the Pharaoh design is one of these!
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Those models are indeed in our possession.
Awesome!
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Next gen Vasudan fleet? Link required!
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Next gen Vasudan fleet? Link required!
A number of mods have shown screenshots of them, including Earth Defense. Don't see anything great on the wiki.
They are one alternative that has been explored but not the only one.
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Kalin' gah Vasuu' dah (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=68802.0)
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What other high-poly Vasudan ships are there besides Stratcomm's? The only one I can think of is the remade Hedetet.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there a youtube vid of an Aten fending off shivan bombers with BPs pulse weapons? It looked pretty kickass, especially on such a ****ty warship.
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Kalin' gah Vasuu' dah (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=68802.0)
Slightly expected those, saw older versions of them on the wiki I think some time ago and thought they were of the quality which'd look really good ingame. :)
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And the BP team have been using quite a few Stratcomm models for the GTVA, maybe WiH should be renamed into Steve-O and esarai VS Stratcomm: War for Supremacy. ;) (not as much for R2, I suppose)
No, but seriously, whatever the team chooses, it's really the way they bring these ships to life. Sekhr really brought the Bellerophon and Chimera to life, showing how they have be used effectively in combat. The models enable the team execute these idea, I suppose, and they probably shape and inspire them to some degree, but ultimately it's what we see in action, no?
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Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there a youtube vid of an Aten fending off shivan bombers with BPs pulse weapons? It looked pretty kickass, especially on such a ****ty warship.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj2fNcW_ZIM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj2fNcW_ZIM)
They do look pretty cool actually...I may use these as inspiration for when the full Vasudan arsenal gets set up.
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Well a battuta said earlier the Vasudans would be a bit more advanced than the tevs and buntus. Hope the Pharaoh design is one of these!
I don't think I've seen a ship called the Pharaoh, but the name sounds promising.
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Well a battuta said earlier the Vasudans would be a bit more advanced than the tevs and buntus. Hope the Pharaoh design is one of these!
I don't think I've seen a ship called the Pharaoh, but the name sounds promising.
The two screens of the Pharaoh I've seen look pretty high-tech compared to other Vasudan ships. And awesome. :)
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Well a battuta said earlier the Vasudans would be a bit more advanced than the tevs and buntus. Hope the Pharaoh design is one of these!
I don't think I've seen a ship called the Pharaoh, but the name sounds promising.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v423/kc1991/Pharaoh.png
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Those rapid-fire pulse weapons do look pretty awesome - they give an almost WWII naval AA fire feel I'd to work into a mod (if I weren't in grad school damnit). Are they stock BP or modified?
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Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there a youtube vid of an Aten fending off shivan bombers with BPs pulse weapons? It looked pretty kickass, especially on such a ****ty warship.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj2fNcW_ZIM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj2fNcW_ZIM)
They do look pretty cool actually...I may use these as inspiration for when the full Vasudan arsenal gets set up.
that's how blobs/multiparts should have worked from the begining. :yes:
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And as the vid description says it's (mostly) how pulse cannons work right now, which is the inspiration.
Pulse cannons are super overpowered, though, so we'll have to get some sane variants if we want more broad mounting.
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can't be THAT much worse than the burst flak and whatever else is on the frigates. but that's the way i like it personally anyway. fighters aren't SUPPOSED to be able to kill capital ships.
(yeah yeah game balance etc. etc.....)
btw i meant the beginning of Freespace, not BP. that wasn't a dig at the mod.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there a youtube vid of an Aten fending off shivan bombers with BPs pulse weapons? It looked pretty kickass, especially on such a ****ty warship.
That was me that made those, based on the pulse weapons from BP AoA, I thought they should be green, for some reason as the red ones in Wih seemed a bit to shivan. For the BP team, if you's want to take a look at them, i can email them as the original download has been removed from the topic i created showing that clip off.
The Ship wasn't a aten it was the Newet, the vasudan version of the Aeolus and its a pretty good model also there is the Tempeth which is a heavy destroyer, the one with the big fins at the front.
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And as the vid description says it's (mostly) how pulse cannons work right now, which is the inspiration.
Pulse cannons are super overpowered, though, so we'll have to get some sane variants if we want more broad mounting.
I'd suggest makeing them fire salvoes, but then the UEF already does that....
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Area/Splash damage! >:D
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i thought BP's pulse shots were blue/silver?
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The Ship wasn't a aten it was the Newet, the vasudan version of the Aeolus and its a pretty good model also there is the Tempeth which is a heavy destroyer, the one with the big fins at the front.
What the heck is a Tempeth?
Never heard of it, never seen it. Only mention on the search is some ancient model made like 10 years ago.
Download link doesn't exist for it anymore.
Is it really that good quality?
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It looks a little bigger than the Aten for me, and the second giveaway is that the Aten does not have anti ship beams, unless it has been rigged with some.
Anyway, how powerful are those UEF Khatvanga turrets compared to the pulse turrets?
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Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there a youtube vid of an Aten fending off shivan bombers with BPs pulse weapons? It looked pretty kickass, especially on such a ****ty warship.
That was me that made those, based on the pulse weapons from BP AoA, I thought they should be green, for some reason as the red ones in Wih seemed a bit to shivan. For the BP team, if you's want to take a look at them, i can email them as the original download has been removed from the topic i created showing that clip off.
The Ship wasn't a aten it was the Newet, the vasudan version of the Aeolus and its a pretty good model also there is the Tempeth which is a heavy destroyer, the one with the big fins at the front.
Send 'em over, they look good and seem like a great place to start. I agree, the red ones should be traded out.
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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v423/kc1991/Pharaoh.png
An ... interesting design, that. I'm not swept away by it, but I think it holds promise. :nod:
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It should be noted that it will be hard to be swept away by a Vasudan ship which was designed to look good and proper along with the MVP-upgraded Hattie prior to Ragingloli's ship. For what it is, it will do.
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It should be noted that it will be hard to be swept away by a Vasudan ship which was designed to look good and proper along with the MVP-upgraded Hattie prior to Ragingloli's ship. For what it is, it will do.
There are other assets in candidacy for use with the Vasudan fleet that are of quality with the Ragingloli Hat. We'll see if we decide they're appropriate.
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It should be noted that it will be hard to be swept away by a Vasudan ship which was designed to look good and proper along with the MVP-upgraded Hattie prior to Ragingloli's ship. For what it is, it will do.
There are other assets in candidacy for use with the Vasudan fleet that are of quality with the Ragingloli Hat. We'll see if we decide they're appropriate.
How did talks with Cadius of the Xtra ship mod for X3TC go?
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A lot of the ships in Xtra aren't his design but are ports from other games. The rest include easily recogniseable parts of existing X3 ships.
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A lot of the ships in Xtra aren't his design but are ports from other games. The rest include easily recogniseable parts of existing X3 ships.
Yep, I noticed that (Believe me, I noticed that), but I do believe he had a couple of models you could use, and he is beginning to do a couple of his own designs, these days. Perhaps his Paranid/Boron designs (When they appear) would be suitable. That and I really think the Nexus ships would suit the Terrans
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It should be noted that it will be hard to be swept away by a Vasudan ship which was designed to look good and proper along with the MVP-upgraded Hattie prior to Ragingloli's ship. For what it is, it will do.
True, unfortunately. :sigh:
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How did talks with Cadius of the Xtra ship mod for X3TC go?
I realised I didn't answer your question. He was quite receptive when asked to having others using his model pack elsewhere, so if I do find something good, it will most likely get used.
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Re-textured Angelwing as Vasudan frigate, please.
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No... the Angel wing wouldn't fit the Vasudans at all, even if re-textured.
Even the Gork come closer to Vasudan designs than the AW...
But the Ghost might make a nice addition for the Vishnans.
Since Arparso was able to convert FS ships to Nexus, going the other way round should be possible too.
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Since Arparso was able to convert FS ships to Nexus, going the other way round should be possible too.
That's not necessarily true, some games allow model importing into the game but not exporting from the game, like I believe Sins of a Solar Empire, for instance.
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It should be noted that it will be hard to be swept away by a Vasudan ship which was designed to look good and proper along with the MVP-upgraded Hattie prior to Ragingloli's ship. For what it is, it will do.
There are other assets in candidacy for use with the Vasudan fleet that are of quality with the Ragingloli Hat. We'll see if we decide they're appropriate.
And his Typhon if it ever sees in-game action.
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I honestly want to see Rag's Typhon more than any other ship. Aside from the fact it looks awesome it's the most deserving of htl'ing imo. Pics (http://s676.photobucket.com/albums/vv127/lulzifer/GVD%20Typhon/?action=view¤t=typhon-wip-08.jpg#!oZZ1QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs676.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv127%2Flulzifer%2FGVD%2520Typhon%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3Dtyphon-wip-08.jpg)
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Considering the Typhons canon backstory it wouldn't make much sense to have it in the game as a combat vessel....
But maybe have them being testbeds for the modern logistic ships and because they did so well in that role, they still serve along with those newer designs.
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Heavily armed logistics ship?
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Take away the beams (which were the reason for the reactor problems, if I remember correctly) and you'll have a rather poorly armed ship for FS2 standards, even more so for BP standards.
But if that's still too much, it shouldn't be a problem to reduce the number of turrets to something more befitting a logistics ship.
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Ah, but we do have the new pulse turrets, which are quite a formidable weapon.
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The Typhon's beams are already a bit on the low side for FS2 standards, and secondly, so are the turrets, which are barely 17 ad wouldn't need reducing for a two kilometer ship.
Frankly, I'd use the Typhon usage as perhaps a mark II retrofitted version, with hull modifications which allow for a better reactor + a few more turrets and beam cannons, etc.
Also, not all the Typhons had that problem, just some. There were quite a few that worked perfectly fine in both multiplayer and singleplayer missions.
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I think its heavily implied that they did have problems, just not all the time.
Donno, that's how I've always taken it.
Something like... "It works but sometimes it just dies on you, so pray it doesn't!"
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Or if the Typhons beam cannons cannot be powered sufficiently, change her into a missile destroyer. :)
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I think everything should fit in with the plot and the background, especially the operational tactics of the Vasudan fleet. If the Vasudans have been doing so well since Capella, why deploy an old refit or missile boat in Sol? I'm sure the HTL Typhon will be in a mod concerning an earlier timeframe.
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We have seen a modified Orion in WiH which is otherwise still perform its role pretty well, so the Vasudans probably did the same with their old Typhons. Just strip the obsolete blob turrets and replace them with pulse turrets and/or more flak and AAA. I don't think it needs better beam weapons (the original BVAS are the best large beams), they just need more of it, preferably some which can be fired from broadside. Just label the ship as Typhon Mk2 or something like that.
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Or if the Typhons beam cannons cannot be powered sufficiently, change her into a missile destroyer. :)
I could see a Typhon doing that.
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Back when I was stuck for a model for the GVL, I did muse the possibility of using a Typhon instead.
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weren't the vasudans so prosperous post-capella because they DIDN'T spend a lot on military?
i think about the best usage for old typhons would be as impromptu installations.
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That's not the impression I get from 'The Rift'
Moreover, the Vasudan Battlegroup organizational scheme was more flexible and versatile than the Terran Fleet model.
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On the Vasudan side, animosity towards Terrans grew as they continued to devote resources to their return to Sol. The prosperous, cosmopolitan Vasudans of the post-Capella era looked down on the Terran fixation with their homeworld and resented continued Terran xenophobia towards the Vasudans.
...
The Medjai began an ambitious restructuring of the Vasudan military in order to create a totally self-sufficient and powerful force capable of power projection, sustained counter-insurgency operations, and node denial. The Terrans, who were still struggling to get their own new warship program off the ground in the face of massive debt, were not pleased to see themselves so thoroughly eclipsed.
The impression I get from The Rift is that the Terran part of the GTVA had little free cash available because of spending on the Sol gate (which, as if WiH, has yet to pay off in terms of resources gained) and possibly counterinsurgency, and their economy was not all that strong after Capella. What they did not have, was money to upgrade warships. Hence we see cost saving measures like using the GTD Cathage as a quick jump drive test-bed and older ships used in combat roles (two GTD Hecates and an Orion in Sol, for example). The Vasudans, however, had a strong economy, was not weighed down my massive projects like the Sol gate and thus managed to modernize their fleet ahead of the Terrans (and presumably invest in things that provide a more immediate return, like infrastructure). Whilst a Typhoon refit is not incompatible with the idea of a modernized, flexible fleet, I have to question whether these 40-50 year-old spaceframes are suitable for combat purposes. Supply and other behind the line tasks seem much more realistic roles for them.
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That can probably explain why Steele is striving so hard to get the Vasudans to join forces with the Tevs...
Even though Tevs have super beams, they barely have the money to power them.
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The Typhon's beams are already a bit on the low side for FS2 standards, and secondly, so are the turrets, which are barely 17 ad wouldn't need reducing for a two kilometer ship.
The Typhon's turrets aren't exactly very sturdy either. A fighter pilot skilled enough to evade its turrets and fighters can strip it of all its weapons in under five minutes.
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That can probably explain why Steele is striving so hard to get the Vasudans to join forces with the Tevs...
Even though Tevs have super beams, they barely have the money to power them.
yes, because the terrans burn money to power their beam cannons
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That can probably explain why Steele is striving so hard to get the Vasudans to join forces with the Tevs...
Even though Tevs have super beams, they barely have the money to power them.
yes, because the terrans burn money to power their beam cannons
IT'S FUELED WITH MONIES.
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Well, what about the whole PVN Hope thing?
IMHO a typhoon destroyer and the pride of the vasudan navy...should get a comeback...
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It should yes, unfortunately though it made the Galatea's mistake of challenging a superdestroyer...
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It looks like BP is following a good part of STR canon, hence the Hope is nothing more but space dust by now. Nothing is said about the Pinnacle though.
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Well, what about the whole PVN Hope thing?
IMHO a typhoon destroyer and the pride of the vasudan navy...should get a comeback...
I think the Vasudans with their whole new "moving forward" ideology would not care right now for nostalgia concerning a ship such as the Hope.
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I agree. They didn't seem to care much for the loss of their homeworld, why would they cling to a ship class?
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And Vasudans seem to actually IMPROVE their capship designs over time. Look at the Hatsh over the Typhon and the Mentu over the Aten, compared to the Hecate over the Orion...
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I think the Tevs kinda need to capture Earth to level the playing field, cos humanity is really getting outplayed.
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I don't really understand why the Vasudans would have disliked the Terran's efforts to reconnect with Sol. Sure, they could have diverted that effort to infrastructure or whatever, but that was part of the point of restoring contact with Earth. If you reconnect with Earth, you have access to the massive industrial base of Sol, which would be a huge benefit to the GTVA, so I would think the Vasudans would have encouraged this. Granted, this did not go according to plan, but they couldn't have known this ahead of time.
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Well, Petrarch had a suggestion and the Vasudans didn't take it very well. :nervous:
I'm sure a Vasudan would tell you that it was a question more of priorities than of absolute strategy. With an overwhelming Shivan menace Out There, the Terran economy foundering, and the fleet clearly not up to the task of 80 Sathani, you've got an obvious short-term problem to address. Investing in a long-term venture to go home to a system of uncertain resources and sophistication is something of a gamble.
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I bet the Terran contingent were a bit miffed to say the least when probes revealed that half a century of bank account interest wasn't awaiting them. . . . .
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Well, Petrarch had a suggestion and the Vasudans didn't take it very well. :nervous:
I'm sure a Vasudan would tell you that it was a question more of priorities than of absolute strategy. With an overwhelming Shivan menace Out There, the Terran economy foundering, and the fleet clearly not up to the task of 80 Sathani, you've got an obvious short-term problem to address. Investing in a long-term venture to go home to a system of uncertain resources and sophistication is something of a gamble.
Yeah, that's true. The impression was that most Terrans wanted to return to Sol simply to reconnect with Earth, not for any economical reasons. As far as the short-term problem, I think it could be argued that there was nothing they could do about a threat that size in the short term. Even if they did everything they could to counter that threat, by the time BP takes place, I don't think the Terrans would have had a chance at stopping 80 Sathani. The only way they would have a chance is if they invested in longer-term options (like reconnecting with Sol) and pray to God that Shivans don't come back anytime soon. If you're screwed no matter what you do in the short-term, it's better to invest in options that put you in a better position in the long run.
Granted, I don't know if I'd be willing to do that myself. It would take a lot of guts to do something that makes you more vulnerable in the short-term, even if you know that you would be doomed no matter what you did if the Shivans came back anytime soon.
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Granted the Vasudans are aliens but I can't actually say Petrarch was wrong per se or anything, if Vasudans feel jealousy as humans do. It was just very undiplomatic. Granted, the Vasudans do have a focal point in the Emperor, which the Terrans apparently don't (culturally at least, legally they do and they have very good defense reasons to bind together).
That said, you can't discount economics either. It's one of the key responsibilities of government and if the Terran Knossos was such a large budgetary drain, it used up money that could have used it to stimulate the economy after Capella (fiscal policy) and encourage growth (infrastructure, subsidizing colony reclamation and settlement). You could probably see the effects of that in less than 18 years and the risk involved in financial terms is much lower than going back to Earth, which have been anywhere at from extreme (decimated planets that suffered badly from the socio-economic changes from node collapse to the jewel it is now).
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The way I see it, the Vasudans don't begrudge that the Terrans want to reconnect with Sol, only what they see as an overhasted attempt to do so.
For them time has different meaning than to us.
Investing only a part of the materials and money into the portal project would have left more for the domestic problems to solve, but because that would have pushed the completion of the project beyond what the GTVA feared to be the point of collapse, they pushed it through as fast and hard as they could.... at the cost of the general public, but they were so focused - almost indoctrinated - onto the return to Earth that they accepted those cut-backs for the most part.
All in all it's an ugly situation. And the drawn out war couldn't have helped it to improve much.
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According to BP fiction after Capella went boom there were all manner of borderwars and rebellions in the Terran elements of the GTVA. A lot of it being anti-Vasudan, not helped my Vasudan military intervention. I like the irony in that the Terrans ended up being what the Vasudans once were: philosophical and pessimistic while the Froggies are trying to sort **** out for the inevitable third Shivan incursion.
I think the only reason the Vasudans are helping the Tevs at all in the war is because they know those maniacs can't be dissuaded from trying to return to Sol and so the war has to be finished in order to bring the Tevs back into the fold. Cos there's no way the Vasudans will be able to fight Shivans by themselves.
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almost indoctrinated
That word, I don't think it means what you think it means. Indoctrination implies instruction.
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I mean that the GTVA managed to fixate the general public so much onto the return to Sol, that it's effects are almost as if the population was indoctrinated.
At least that's the impression I got from the proses.
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I think the only reason the Vasudans are helping the Tevs at all in the war is because they know those maniacs can't be dissuaded from trying to return to Sol and so the war has to be finished in order to bring the Tevs back into the fold. Cos there's no way the Vasudans will be able to fight Shivans by themselves.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but BP canon(cannon?) also notes nothing along the lines of Tevs and Zods actively trying to work together, aside from the war in Sol. In fact, Tevs and Zods are drifting even farther apart.
That or I not only have bad memory but I'm also an idiot. :P
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The whole point in my opinion is that the GTVA Terrans could have worked on investing their resources in their economy and showing some patience. There are plenty of Terran worlds which can make a good capitol-de-facto. If you recover your economy, piracy and rebellion would decline also, besides if Terrans had asked the Vasudans for some help the two'd have grown even closer. Time spent on getting home could have been spent on building an indestructable bond between two species and propaganda aimed at putting the UEF in a bad daylight could have been used to make a better picture of the Vasudans in the eyes of humankind. A gate could also have been built in 2390 or 2400. If Terrans and Vasudans had worked closely to share all their technological finds, they'd both have advanced another whole generation of technological development.
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Pfft. What kind of **** story would that be? Happily ever after?
Jk. I'm willing to believe that GTVA would be that rash/stupid as long as it makes for an excellent narrative.
Actually, on second thought, I'd think that it'd be more human nature. It was only 30 years since Sol node's collapse that the GTVA found the gate technology. Since it would have been a relatively recent find in that respect, I'd imagine both scientists and the government to be abuzz with excitement, and funneling tons of resources to get the thing done ASAP. It's almost like the LHC. I mean, wtf did that thing do for us in a practical sense, aside from sucking billions of dollars worth of resources into something that has 0 or negative productivity. Yet, we still did it regardless of all the social problems going on elsewhere in the world.
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The LHC cost $9 billion. The US Department of Defense sent $315.5 billion in FY 2010, the US economy has a GDP of about $14 trillion, and the Agricultural Bank of China raised $19.2 billion on the Hong Kong and Shanghai stock exchanges to fund its business operations (and that's not even the whole value of the company, the PRC government hanging on to a large and you don't IPO all a company's worth up front). It would not be a large part of the government's budget for one year if built by the government, and the expenses are possible for even private corporations. The Sol Gate is supposedly on an entire different scale, and that's one of the jobs of politicians - balancing expenditure between different purposes beneficial to society, or at least, eventually be beneficial to society.
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It's almost like the LHC. I mean, wtf did that thing do for us in a practical sense, aside from sucking billions of dollars worth of resources into something that has 0 or negative productivity. Yet, we still did it regardless of all the social problems going on elsewhere in the world.
Go back 50 years in time. You'll hear the same things about the space program. We now have calculators, microwaves, cell phones and other devices we take for granted thanks to it.
The LHC is the same thing. In the future, we'll get some devices we can't even dream of today thanks to that research.
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Well, Petrarch had a suggestion and the Vasudans didn't take it very well. :nervous:
I'm sure a Vasudan would tell you that it was a question more of priorities than of absolute strategy. With an overwhelming Shivan menace Out There, the Terran economy foundering, and the fleet clearly not up to the task of 80 Sathani, you've got an obvious short-term problem to address. Investing in a long-term venture to go home to a system of uncertain resources and sophistication is something of a gamble.
Assuming the Terrans' Colossus was on par with a Sathanas, it might be possible for the Terrans/Vasudans to bring the Colossus towards a model of economy of scale. Project costs go down when more units are ordered, so the cost and time that it takes to build a Colossus should go down from however much it cost (I don't know if there is any canon information about the cost of a Colossus) and should go down from 20 years to something more reasonable. Sure, a fleet of Colossi would be expensive as heck (especially finding and training the crew required for each ship) but would perhaps serve as a deterrent to a future invasion of 80 Sathani. Invest in infrastructure so that more ships can be built in parallel, then Ctrl-C! Ctrl-V! until your fleet is built.
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Please play Age Of Aquarius, mission "A time of Heroes". Two Destroyers and a few Corvettes take down a Sath in a matter of seconds.
Also, take a close look at WiH's Serkr Team, and think about what their primary role is.
The Colossus is, ultimately, too large and inefficient to ever be mass-produced. The GTVA instead opted to introduce new Destroyer and Corvette classes that could do the job just as well.
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The Colossus isn't an anti-juggernaut ship, its more of a destroyer-hunter.
Specifically, its designed to hunt SD Lucifer-class ships.
Its not very good at engaging Saths, but it'll wipe the floor with any FS2-era destroyer in seconds.
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The Colossus isn't an anti-juggernaut ship, its more of a destroyer-hunter.
He was being hypothetical.
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I was saying that it wasn't likely for the GTVA to build another Colossus seeing as the new threat is Saths, not Lucifers, which haven't been seen at all during the SSI.
I'm agreeing.
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Please play Age Of Aquarius, mission "A time of Heroes". Two Destroyers and a few Corvettes take down a Sath in a matter of seconds.
Also, take a close look at WiH's Serkr Team, and think about what their primary role is.
The Colossus is, ultimately, too large and inefficient to ever be mass-produced. The GTVA instead opted to introduce new Destroyer and Corvette classes that could do the job just as well.
They did take down the Sathanas mighty quick once it's beams were down but all the same the GTVA fleet is still smaller than 80 saths (a couple dozen destroyers in BP canon if I remember right), strikecraft taken into consideration as well. The GTVA fleet would be unable to debeam and probably get overwhelmed by Shivan bombers alone. Hypothetical Sathanas fleet engagement = 0 chance of survival.
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Also, take a close look at WiH's Serkr Team, and think about what their primary role is.
Actually I had no idea until the dev commentary videos. They kill Sathanasen.
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Please play Age Of Aquarius, mission "A time of Heroes". Two Destroyers and a few Corvettes take down a Sath in a matter of seconds.
Also, take a close look at WiH's Serkr Team, and think about what their primary role is.
The Colossus is, ultimately, too large and inefficient to ever be mass-produced. The GTVA instead opted to introduce new Destroyer and Corvette classes that could do the job just as well.
They did take down the Sathanas mighty quick once it's beams were down but all the same the GTVA fleet is still smaller than 80 saths (a couple dozen destroyers in BP canon if I remember right), strikecraft taken into consideration as well. The GTVA fleet would be unable to debeam and probably get overwhelmed by Shivan bombers alone. Hypothetical Sathanas fleet engagement = 0 chance of survival.
You are probably correct. I'm sure the GTVA has gamed out the scenarios.
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In a Sathanas fleet engagement for every Sathanas you 'de-fang' (undoing it of it's frontal beam cannons) two more Sathanas juggs enter the battle having now 2 at a time firing on you, where when de-fanging another one an additional 2 have gotten into range, thus 3 are firing at you, etc. Therefor the precise jumping and new jump drive research I imagine. To hit one and get out, let the new logistic ships repair you as much as possible and then jump back to hit one again after which you flee again.
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Wether one or two or even three Sathanas fire their main beams at you doesn't really matter. Unless there is something done with scripting, Rayners and Titans go down from two BFRed hits. And when a single Sathanas can take two destroyers down per beam-salvo, it doesn't matter if there are two or 20 of them lined up.
The only real chance you have against a not de-fanged Sath is hitting them from the sides or from behind.
On that matter, do we have any canon information or estimation on a Sathanas' fighter and bomber complement?
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Wether one or two or even three Sathanas fire their main beams at you doesn't really matter. Unless there is something done with scripting, Rayners and Titans go down from two BFRed hits. And when a single Sathanas can take two destroyers down per beam-salvo, it doesn't matter if there are two or 20 of them lined up.
The only real chance you have against a not de-fanged Sath is hitting them from the sides or from behind.
Every time I see this kind of statement, I wonder how anyone could possibly come up with a realistic scenario where a Sathanas has a perfect opening salvo opportunity against two destroyers. Hell, even one destroyer. Every destroyer ever destroyed in canon by a Sathanas has either been anchored to a defensive position or didn't even know the Sathanas existed.
If a Sathanas were truly capable of the kind of precision jumping necessary to surprise GTVA ships with a beam-range transition, they'd have done so against the Orestes. That they did not, while not necessarily being definitive, ranges high on the scale of retarded for maneuvers if they could have.
Two destroyers and supporting elements, against a fully prepared, fully armed Sathanas while that Sathanas had the benefit of choosing when and where to engage managed to destroy it with no losses outside of fighter craft.
There isn't a much more definitive scenario than that.
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That post is built on bad assumptions. Bolding those bad assumptions is not a good move.
I can see plenty of scenarios in which a single Sathanas could have a perfect opening salvo against two destroyers. One Sath draws, the other hits. If there'd been a second Sath present in A Time for Heroes you might've seen that.
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However, there was not, which begs the question why the Sathanas didn't jump into direct beam range in the first place.
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Yeah, it's sometimes hard to think of a plausible reason why a Sathanas/Ravana/Lilith doesn't just jump next to its target and beam it down in 10-20s, instead of giving just the time GTVA pilots need to defang them.
LReds and BFReds are simply too frikkin powerful once they start firing.
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Plot. It is always plot.
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First off, I was just answering to Saras comment. Since she was specifically talking about firing Sathanas, I did so in the answer to that comment as well.
Every time I see this kind of statement, I wonder how anyone could possibly come up with a realistic scenario where a Sathanas has a perfect opening salvo opportunity against two destroyers. Hell, even one destroyer. Every destroyer ever destroyed in canon by a Sathanas has either been anchored to a defensive position or didn't even know the Sathanas existed.
If a Sathanas were truly capable of the kind of precision jumping necessary to surprise GTVA ships with a beam-range transition, they'd have done so against the Orestes. That they did not, while not necessarily being definitive, ranges high on the scale of retarded for maneuvers if they could have.
Two destroyers and supporting elements, against a fully prepared, fully armed Sathanas while that Sathanas had the benefit of choosing when and where to engage managed to destroy it with no losses outside of fighter craft.
There isn't a much more definitive scenario than that.
Maybe you should replay those two missions.
In the one against the Lucifer, the Sathanas jumps in, not to destroy the Orestes, but to destroy the Keeper. And guess what? It jumps in within beamrange of the Keeper and immediately destroys it.
And in the followup mission it's the Orestes that attacks the Sathanas, not the other way round. The Sath is on the defense here and barring a miniture jump (something seen in neither vanilla nor BP), she has only the choices to either retreat or use her sub-light engines to get in range.
So when the Sathanas was able to choose the battlefield, it was instant death for their prey. The 14th BG was only able to defeat the Sathanas, because they were the ones choosing the battlefield, not the Sathanas.
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it's the Orestes that attacks the Sathanas, not the other way round.
Wat. Every time you play that mission, you float around for a few minutes while the Sathanas isn't there waiting for it to attack. There's no way the Orestes and accompanying battlegroup knew exactly what minute volume of space the Sathanas would jump into. The Orestes draws the Sathanas off, giving it a prime target and trying to order the other ships to escape (which, obviously, they refuse to do).
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That post is built on bad assumptions. Bolding those bad assumptions is not a good move.
And since you won't explain why they're bad, why should we take you seriously? Snail's view appears to jibe with the mission you put out.
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That's twice you've confused me for Snail during one of these conversations. :P
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That's twice you've confused me for Snail during one of these conversations. :P
DETAILS
Actually, it occurs to me now that BP1 could simply have been pointing to a truth we've all conveniently forgotten. The shock-jump could simply be a myth born of a Ravana that got lucky. The Great Hunt and FS1's Clash Of The Titans are the only missions that really support an ultra-precision-jump capability for capital craft.
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I'm guessing it's down to exact timing on when you leave subspace, as well as taking into account the movement of planets, stars, and their gravity. Perhaps also inconcistencies inside subspace (since subspace vortexes seem to have energy swirls they're probably not 'smooth' and exact) have an influence on where you come out and when. The faster your subspacedrive can react and compensate for all these inconcistencies, the more accurate I think you jump. That's my view on subspace anyway.
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We know from M01 of the FS2 campaign that it's possible to track the end position of a ship entering subspace based only on said entrance. The shock jump could be very easily done by having a spotter or scout craft in the area (Aurora, anyone?) and feeding the co-ordinates you would need. Other than that, you only have a general volume to emerge from, and engagement is less effective as a whole.
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However, there was not, which begs the question why the Sathanas didn't jump into direct beam range in the first place.
Answered below.
That post is built on bad assumptions. Bolding those bad assumptions is not a good move.
And since you won't explain why they're bad, why should we take you seriously? Snail's view appears to jibe with the mission you put out.
Because you have canonical information explaining when a shock jump works and when it doesn't, in quite some detail. Scotty did a good job on it.
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The Gargant arrives on the UEF side and demolishes the GTVA fleet
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Because you have canonical information explaining when a shock jump works and when it doesn't, in quite some detail. Scotty did a good job on it.
No he didn't. He gave us tracking, but that's less than half the equation. He didn't give us navigation. In the FS2 and FS1 campaigns there's really no unequivocal evidence for this sort of ultra-precision jumping. I mean it's great, sure, you've found the enemy. But that doesn't really matter if you can't actually exploit that information for an immediate beam-range jump attack, and there isn't much evidence from FS1 and FS2 to support that this sort of thing can be done ultra-precisely enough to make the shock-jump a viable tactic.
So where's this magical canon you're talking about? Canon doesn't even discuss shock jumps.
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Because you have canonical information explaining when a shock jump works and when it doesn't, in quite some detail. Scotty did a good job on it.
No he didn't. He gave us tracking, but that's less than half the equation. He didn't give us navigation. In the FS2 and FS1 campaigns there's really no unequivocal evidence for this sort of ultra-precision jumping. I mean it's great, sure, you've found the enemy. But that doesn't really matter if you can't actually exploit that information for an immediate beam-range jump attack, and there isn't much evidence from FS1 and FS2 to support that this sort of thing can be done ultra-precisely enough to make the shock-jump a viable tactic.
So where's this magical canon you're talking about? Canon doesn't even discuss shock jumps.
Look at what forum you're in.
In Blue Planet, scouts spending time on target can calculate increasingly more precise jump coordinates for later arrivals.
It opens up fun gameplay, too.
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Look at what forum you're in.
I did. We're discussing why BP1's Shivans aren't stupid. What's it to you?
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Look at what forum you're in.
I did. We're discussing why BP1's Shivans aren't stupid. What's it to you?
Shock jumps are possible under certain situations for Terrans. The same limitation may or may not apply to the Shivans; or it may be that their behavior is totally different.
There is a comprehensive explanation for Shivan behavior that may even some day reach the players, but it won't be here.
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The Terrans at first don't like using shock jump tactics because it was probably considered a suicide, and most Terran ships are designed for broadside engagements. Unless the ship performing it is a Lucifer or Sathanas, most Shivan ships usually get destroyed after doing a shock jump. In FS1, only the Lucifer is seen doing it. In BP, they started adding it as a possible strategy probably because they can sufficiently defend the ships, as well as having better jump drives and better AWACS to calculate precise coordinates and thus ensuring the ships can do as much damage as possible to the enemy and getting out in one piece.
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Hm, still stuck at the new vasudan ships...
the Hatsheput and the Sobek both have a head, a neck, the main body and some kind of fins...
This works for me and judging from new designed ships...they should at least have this features...
Excuse my bad englisch^^
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Hm, still stuck at the new vasudan ships...
the Hatsheput and the Sobek both have a head, a neck, the main body and some kind of fins...
This works for me and judging from new designed ships...they should at least have this features...
Excuse my bad englisch^^
Don't worry, we've seen worse.
You have a point there, though. The Sobek and Hatshepsut/vacuum cleaner/spade have a very prominent head, neck and body. Here are some nice ones I've found on the Wiki, although your mileage may vary.
(http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/images/GVDApophis.PNG)
GVD Apophis (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/GVD_Apophis)
(http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/images/Mefdef.jpg)
HLD Mefdef (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/HLD_Mefdef)
(http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/images/Hedetet.jpg)
The old GVD Hedetet (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/GVD_Hedetet)
I seriously like the Apophis. It's an incredible design, and probably the second Vasudan warship with a design that I really like (the Mefdef was first).
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I stumbled over them as well and the Apophis is truly a worthy hier for the good old Typhoons.
But this flying beam cannon design...man...I don't know^^
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The assets we're looking at are of much better quality than these.
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The middle refit-Typhon by Trashman looks pretty cool. Did it ever appear in a campaign?
EDIT: Flames of War - I better look closer next time.
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The assets we're looking at are of much better quality than these.
Wow. That's good to hear. :)
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Apparently an attempt to integrate shivan technology into a Typhon, or at the very least a shivan inspired design.
That would explain the Demon-ish front of the Mefdef.
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The arch is the first thing that catches my attention. :P
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Apparently an attempt to integrate shivan technology into a Typhon, or at the very least a shivan inspired design.
There must have been a Hammer of Light sympathizer on the design team. :shaking:
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The mefdef is a hammer of light destroyer, thats what the HLD stands for. I always liked that design and the apophis is looks like the bee's knees
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Don't know whether it's been mentioned:
One Thing I think can be improved for r2 is the weapon sounds. But I'm not really sure what it is that i don't like about the current ones. One game that impressed me, with it's sound is soul reaver 2.
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Don't know whether it's been mentioned:
One Thing I think can be improved for r2 is the weapon sounds. But I'm not really sure what it is that i don't like about the current ones.
The Cavalier and UEF point-defense guns, way too quiet, when the Gattler is much smaller and sounds more fierce.
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I'm not a big fan of the Maul. KEW KEW. Okay.
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i think i mentioned this already, but bigger crosshair. the little dot got lost in all the shiny a LOT in R1.
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the little dot got lost in all the shiny a LOT in R1.
I ran into the same problem. As the campaign progressed I did get used to it though. Still, if its not too much trouble a bigger crosshair would be nice.
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Give Anibuilder a shot and you could make your own. You can make lots of custom stuff with that thing.
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i'm sure i could draw one fine (enough) but i have no idea how to go about putting it in the game.
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There is a comprehensive explanation for Shivan behavior that may even some day reach the players
This is what I want in the rest of War in Heaven. (or at least in BP3)
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The assets we're looking at are of much better quality than these.
What, exactly? AFAIK, (and I've looked, extensively) there's nothing really top drawer for Vasudans. A few WIPs (Oddgrim's being the most prominent), but nothing I've seen that compares with the new Hat, really.
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The assets we're looking at are of much better quality than these.
What, exactly? AFAIK, (and I've looked, extensively) there's nothing really top drawer for Vasudans. A few WIPs (Oddgrim's being the most prominent), but nothing I've seen that compares with the new Hat, really.
It's going to take a little adaptation. We don't want to publicly commit right now, in case it's too much of a reach. :nervous:
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I can has Gargant?
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I can has Gargant?
lol again? :P
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I can has Gargant?
The Gargant is a relic from a very questionable period of design, when the community was still figuring out how to make good things. BP's philosophy has always been to make things more interesting and more fun, not to make them big and clumsy.
It's a little too old, a lot too ugly, and way too unwieldy to have any immediate place in our design.
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Gigas, then?
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If the Shivans ever get involved again, they will have interesting things which are interesting to interact with, instead of large props that make for fascinating backgrounds.
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plz2stop suggesting Inferno ships, they very nearly all suck. Besides, if I know the BP team, new ships will be the least of the epic in the new campaigns.
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I can has Gargant?
/me hits DarthWang with a wand.
Isn't the Dante large enough for you already? :p
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I just want to see the Gargant in a campaign at least once
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I just want to see the Gargant in a campaign at least once
Inferno SCP has replaced the Gargant model twice. The current one is ass-ugly, but may make an appearance if INF SCP is ever taken off hold.
You will probably never see the original Gargant unless one of the two (three?) surviving INF members release the model.
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I've asked this on Inferno twice before, but isn't there a screenshot of the Icanus beam-spamming the old Gargant?
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A google search comes up with this: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=53590.0 (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=53590.0)
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Yes, that. specifically, this one post: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=53590.msg1084051#msg1084051
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Isn't the Dante much bigger than that?
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Hardly. The Dante is less than 7 km long, and the Icanus, which is smaller than the Gargant, is 15.
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Size is relevant only inasmuch as it makes anything interesting to design missions with, and in the case of every ship of that size so far, size makes them less interesting, not more.
A 'good' ubership could be done. It may even be done here. But those models - Gigas, Gargant, Icanus - are of such low quality they're basically unusable.
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The Sathanas was essentially a well done uber-ship of its time, was it not? The Colossus I remember thinking was pretty ugly at the time.
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The Sathanas was not handled well in gameplay - High Noon was basically a playable cutscene. We aren't really able to discuss our plans on that front, but we're interested in allowing the player more to do in capship fights than 'destroy beam cannons' or 'bombs'.
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High Noon was the worst mission of Freespace 2 I earnestly believe.
I love that you can skip long dialog if you are repeating a mission or simply just want to go straight to game play. That said, some of the hardest missions are some of the ones that REQUIRE you to sit and wait the most.
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dudes... the Gargant is released :lol: Go check out on Freespace mods, in model packs, the Inferno Outtakes pack. IT IS THERE:)). I've played with it:)
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Err... That's the old Gigas, not the Gargant.
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It's the one in the pics you've shown around here:)
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Can we see more facility focused missions but steering away from the "must defend" etc retail based objectives. You guysbare really creative so I expect greatness. Not races though, I hate the races :(
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Can we see more facility focused missions but steering away from the "must defend" etc retail based objectives. You guysbare really creative so I expect greatness. Not races though, I hate the races :(
Yes, we have at least two good non-defense facility missions in the pipe.
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It's the one in the pics you've shown around here:)
No, the Gargant is based on the pre-R1 Gigas. The pre-R1 Gigas was flipped and mirrored to create the Gargant.
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You guys should totally add the Gargant in!
That would be soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo cool
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Mr. Lubby to go with Mr. Cuddles is the only was I want to see one of those monstrosities.
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Some sort of.non.fighter/bomber/capital mission where you have to pilot an escape pod amidst a raging battle to an allied capital ship would be awwwwwwwesommmmmmme. Xx
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At least just have a Gargant appear in one mission even if it's not important to the mission, I just want to see it in the game
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Why? Why is this so important all of a sudden? WiH is a story of human struggles, how the hell is a giant alien spaceship gonna fit in in all that? (Unless it's Vasudan)
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At least just have a Gargant appear in one mission even if it's not important to the mission, I just want to see it in the game
As an easter egg, like the one that happens if you kill the Carthage. That would be awesome.
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If any of you can present a version of the model that is up to the quality of the Solaris, we will happily include it and do interesting things with it.
Otherwise, please leave the godawful models and boring mission design to INFR1.
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If any of you can present a version of the model that is up to the quality of the Solaris, we will happily include it and do interesting things with it.
Otherwise, please leave the godawful models and boring mission design to INFR1.
Yes thank you!
Shivan local SSMs.
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You don't need a detailed model if it only appears in the distance
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You don't need a detailed model if it only appears in the distance
You can feel free to place the Gargant in a mission yourself and check it out.
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When it's that big, its gonna be very visible, even if it is in the "distance".
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Yeah, the one in the screenshot looks a bit plain. Doesn't matter how much detail needed, but it definitely could use some red paint.
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You don't need a detailed model if it only appears in the distance
You can feel free to place the Gargant in a mission yourself and check it out.
Where do I download it? All I can find is the old Gigas
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Inferno Outtakes?
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Can someone do a gigas fanwank split please?
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Can someone do a gigas fanwank split please?
Darius is banned because he's on honeymoon, so get a Global Mod or admin to do it.
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Can someone do a gigas fanwank split please?
Darius is banned because he's on honeymoon, so get a Global Mod or admin to do it.
i live here
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Can someone do a gigas fanwank split please?
What's the rent like? Is it hard living with the E?
Darius is banned because he's on honeymoon, so get a Global Mod or admin to do it.
i live here
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Quote fail?
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Quote fail?
Apparently yes. I had something cool and witty to say but the moment's lost. :(
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You've placed it in the wrong quote.
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You propably don't have use for them anymore, but I'll just mention some thoughts about WIH weapons here:
In WIH1 all weapons use almost no energy. (at least the weapons shown in the campaign) That takes a layer of complexity away from energy management.
The Vulcan, Maul and rapier are very similar in WIH1. In the WIH1 context i would have made them more like:
Vulcan:
projectile velocity: 1200
time between shots: 0.2
damage per shot: 12
Energy use per shot: 0.5
Damage per second: 60
Energy use per second: 2.5
Damage per energy: 24
Uses:
Complements the Maul very well.
long range engagement for finishing of severly damaged enemys (low energy use needed for sustained fire due to low hit propability)
long range engagement of fast ships which don't let you come close, and which have weak armor (interceptors) (especially useful if you fly slow ships, something which never happened in WIH1)
bomb intercept (high fire rate, long range, fast projectile)
Maul:
projectile velocity: 500
time between shots: 0.65
damage per shot: 70
Energy use per shot: 1.6
Damage per second: 107
Energy use per second: 2.4
Damage per energy: 50
Uses:
Complements the Vulcan very well.
Short range engagement of slow and highly armored targets (bombers,heavy fighters) (especially useful if you fly a fast ship, so all ships are slow compard to you and you can get close)
For fighting VERY slow and VERY highly armored targets (transports freighters cruisers) (low energy use for sustained fire to take down heavy armor)
Rapier:
projectile velocity: 800
time between shots: 0.2
damage per shot: 20
Energy use per shot: 1
Damage per second: 100
Energy use per second: 5
Damage per energy: 20
uses:
general purpose weapon, frees your other weapon bank for a specialist weapon.
Very deadly (high damage per second and high projectile speed)
I made such a modified table for experimentation purposes. It's attached
I generally feel, that in WIH1 fighter combat often takes place at shorter range than in retail freespace. Is that only because you are using the Kentauroi most of the time or is there a deeper sense behind that?
[attachment deleted by admin]
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You don't need a detailed model if it only appears in the distance
You can feel free to place the Gargant in a mission yourself and check it out.
Where do I download it? All I can find is the old Gigas
The Gargant has not been released yet, unless it popped up when I wasn't looking.
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I definitely feel that not enough was done to differentiate the Vulcan, Maul and Rapier. In fact that's one of my primary issues with R1, the weapons were pretty samey. Unfortunately it's almost impossible to change now without going back through all the missions to check balance.
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That and the lack of player ship diversity.
It can be changed for r2.
Two more thoughts:
The Maul has almost the same velocity as the hellfire.
The vulcan turrets on ships like the uriel could be replaced with a maul turret. (assuming my balancing) I think that would be much more annoying for attackers.
I might also add that I as a non native speaker still dont understand the meaning of "wargod six" and "jump five team". Despite understanding the context in which they were used and playing the campaign often. And please don't call ships: Eris Instead: UED Eris. This would reduce the needed brainpower to follow the story a great deal. I was very confused on my first playthrough.
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I might also add that I as a non native speaker still dont understand the meaning of "wargod six" and "jump five team". Despite understanding the context in which they were used and playing the campaign often.
"Wargod Six" is a military callsign. Similar-ish to "Alpha 2" but on a taskforce-level rather than on a wing-level. A ship that is on "Jump Five" is ready to be deployed to any location within five minutes. It's military jargon and not really necessary for understanding the plot. They could have just made up random jargon (like practically all military sci-fi settings do) and nobody but Dilmah would notice.
And please don't call ships: Eris Instead: UED Eris. This would reduce the needed brainpower to follow the story a great deal. I was very confused on my first playthrough.
You know, I have a beef with people who add prefixes to ships in-mission. Very few canon retail missions did that, and it just kinda looks ugly. I'd prefer if they left the ship prefixes out.
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Sorry ION3 but saying "Eris" instead of "UED Eris" makes a lot of sense. If someone serves on say the USS Nimitz, an aircraft carrier, they're probably going to say "I serve on the Nimitz" and not every time "I serve on the Yuu Es Es Nimitz".
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Yes. That is, in fact, the reasoning behind omitting them. The problem is that those prefixes only very rarely feel "natural". As we hope to get these things voice acted at some point, we have to take care to write the dialogue in a way that people can speak it with a certain amount of flow, and those prefixes ("GTD" and "GTCv" especially) always bring a sentence to a crashing halt in terms of flow. (At least, that's what I, personally, believe)
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And alternately saying "This is the Galactic Terran Destroyer Carthage reinforcing your position." doesn't really pronounce comfortably either.
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The only times I can imagine the prefixes possibly being used would be when a ship arrives on station (This is the GTD ***** on station) or when referring to enemy ships in briefings. For instance, I could see the UEF saying GTD Carthage during a briefing because that tells you that it is a destroyer without having to say anything else, but if they included the ship class (in this case, an Orion class destroyer), they probably wouldn't say the prefix. Basically, they might say the GTD Carthage, but not the GTD Carthage, an Orion class destroyer. In normal speech, especially referring to friendly ships, the prefixes shouldn't be used.
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Aside from which 'GTD' is made up of letters that have hard sounds, it goes well with ships that have powrful sounding names like Carthage or Repulse. GTD Pony wouldn't have the same effect unfortuntely.
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Especially as it's slang for Crap over here lol. Xx
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Aside from which 'GTD' is made up of letters that have hard sounds, it goes well with ships that have powrful sounding names like Carthage or Repulse. GTD Pony wouldn't have the same effect unfortuntely.
Don't you know looking for group?
The battlecry of Richard is actually "For pony" and it is not ridiculous;)
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Sorry ION3 but saying "Eris" instead of "UED Eris" makes a lot of sense.
I know. The problem is, that when i read the briefings i was often just wondering what the hell they are talking about, as it all doesn't really make sense if you don't remember which ship is which. If the ship class is given by a prefix you do at least have a hint. And if you see that a ship is a cruiser, you know that you propably don't need to remember it anyway as it's not important.
I do roughly understand the gameplay relevant parts in such cases, but the background info is also important in WIH.
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The thing is, in universe there's only 3 of these big destroyers, so everyone knows what the Eris or Solaris is.
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The only name I find hard to remember is Shepseskaf.
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At first I thought the Eris was a computer because of the reinforcements mission. :nervous:
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Most of us had an early spoiler of what the Eris is in the form of an early trailer for WiH, showing the Eris taking on three Allied warships on its own. It was still an FD Vexor back then with the metallic black paintjob.
I think Darius has since deleted it off YouTube.
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Something i want in the rest of war in heaven is precise numbers about weapons and ships in the ship and weapon selection and even more of them the techroom. Damage per second (shield hull), energy use per second and projectile speed are the most important ones for weapons. Size, speed, turning rate and armor and shield strength as well as weapon points and capacity are the most important ones for ships. In the techroom there should be anything, that is gameplay relevant. That includes stuff like reactor power, burner capacity.
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Aren't those all present as of the 1.1 patch, in the weapon selection screen?
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Crack open the VP and browse the tables. It's that simple.
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Crack open the VP and browse the tables. It's that simple.
No it's not. Users should never have to leave the game to get information they need.
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Who said they needed that info ? The infos given in WiH are more than enough already. You don't have to know the exact turning rate or afterburner recharge rate to play correctly.
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We would prefer information on par with that in the MediaVPs. The patch 1.1 loadout screens are a step in the right direction in this respect.
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Actually the "Level 3 Hull Damage / "Level 2 Shield Damage" in mediavps is really useless. BP2's patch has much more useful details about weapons in loadout.
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Also, the wiki doesn't have information on afterburner recharge or turning rate. It really is a matter of cracking the tables.
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There's a patch? Holy ****! *installs*
Hey that's much better. Here are some comments:
GTVA equipment descriptions are not on the same level as UEF ones.
Ship descriptions still have the rather unusefull information:
armor average
maneuverability good
I suggest instead:
Armor (number) shields (number) (armor+shields as a single value would also work)
turns per second (number) (not seconds per turn turning rate averaged over pitch and yaw)
Primaries have reloading time listed instead of shots per second
Ballistic weapons have ammo size listed instead of ammo count
Secondarys have damage per second listed. I would instead suggest damage per release (swarm damage added up)
Secondarys lack a rating for lock on speed and maneuverability.
Crack open the VP and browse the tables. It's that simple.
No it's not. Users should never have to leave the game to get information they need.
And not everyone knows how to open .vp.
You don't have to know the exact turning rate or afterburner recharge rate to play correctly.
That's why afterburner recharge should go to the techroom. The selection screens only need basic stuff.
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Where can I find this patch?
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Wouldn't it make sense for there to be less info on GTVA stuff since you're flying for the UEF so you would have info on all your weapons but only some captured intelligence on GTVA weapons?
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Where can I find this patch?
Try the sticky RELEASE topic right on this board...
Wouldn't it make sense for there to be less info on GTVA stuff since you're flying for the UEF so you would have info on all your weapons but only some captured intelligence on GTVA weapons?
It would but such details are not campaign-specific. If you have WiH selected as mod, then those same details would be shown when you play AoA or FS2 campaign.
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I would love to see a terran capship commander with command over a vasudan ship...
Something like a pet of Khonsu II and not liked by his fellow terran comrades^^
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I think the Terran-Vasudan relations are too strained in BP for something like that to happen...
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Yeah, I know...but Terrans with this fancy Order of Vasuda medal...
Should work somehow^^
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Another addition: Swarm missles should propably have their size also listed as swarm size, not individual missles.
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I'd just like to be able to blow up something significant. The one or two Diomedes and the occasional cruiser helped, and I liked how the fact that you weren't able to do any significant damage to the GTVA helps the whole hopeless atmosphere in the campaign, but just make sure we get to see something hostile make a big boom in the second part of BP2.
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We are definitely interested in allowing that, and the position players will find themselves in in R2 is more conducive to inducing explosions.
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I would be glad if being able to use text-to-speech with the campaign (no beeps version, or option to force tts even when beep sound file is associated with the message). And nebula mission (maybe in the atmosphere of a gas giant?) would be nice.
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We are definitely interested in allowing that, and the position players will find themselves in in R2 is more conducive to inducing explosions.
We get to fly the Durga and V-hard-to-spell-bomber right?
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Hey tutta, what if I make the changes i mentioned regarding the tech descriptions for WIHr1 and you can just paste it in your tables? (i've begun already)
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Give it a shot, we'll see how it turns out.
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We are definitely interested in allowing that, and the position players will find themselves in in R2 is more conducive to inducing explosions.
We get to fly the Durga and V-hard-to-spell-bomber right?
If we do I just hope it's going to be more exciting than finding a blind spot on the ship and then launching/rearming until it's dead (looking at you High Noon). Maybe something like the FS2 mission where you're bombing every NTF ship coming through a jump node, but with more fighter harassment to make it more hectic.
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As with most of War in Heaven, we are only interested in doing things when we can do them in a more complex and rewarding manner than base FS2. Sometimes we even succeed!
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moar chest candy!
srsly, the fleet commanders needa toss some shiney bits out to the people on the front lines to give the illusion that they are doing good. I mean it wouldn't be the military if you didn't get a medal for doing your job (and i would know, i got 3 commendations myself for just being there =p)
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I always wonder why the terran bombers have so much weaker shielding compared to the seraphim. Especially the boanerges looks like it were one big shield generator. Do you plan to include any bombers with more shielding?
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On the Tev side, you're not likely to see any new heavy bomber class. Reading the description of the Ursa and the Boanerges should give you a good idea of why. Heavy anti-capship work is expected to be assured by corvette classes, or medium bombers like the Artemis and the Rhea for smaller targets up to corvette size.
For the other factions, the UEF already have two heavy bomber classes, I can't tell about the Zods but they'll probably follow a similar doctrine to the Tevs, and I can't tell for the Shivans or the Vishnans.
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I always wonder why the terran bombers have so much weaker shielding compared to the seraphim. Especially the boanerges looks like it were one big shield generator. Do you plan to include any bombers with more shielding?
Isn't the Seraphim heavier than every other GTVA bomber? Also, alien super tech and all that.
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On the Tev side, you're not likely to see any new heavy bomber class. Reading the description of the Ursa and the Boanerges should give you a good idea of why. Heavy anti-capship work is expected to be assured by corvette classes, or medium bombers like the Artemis and the Rhea for smaller targets up to corvette size.
For the other factions, the UEF already have two heavy bomber classes, I can't tell about the Zods but they'll probably follow a similar doctrine to the Tevs, and I can't tell for the Shivans or the Vishnans.
Well Battuta said that for bombers to become effective they'd have to get either much lighter or a lot heavier...
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Or be able to make shock bombing runs.
Jump in, unload, jump out. Time elapsed: only the absolute necessary required for the bomb to lock + 10 seconds. Then again, that sounds too much like a SSM strike...
Wouldn't it be better to make bombs themselves smarter and/or faster?
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Or be able to make shock bombing runs.
Jump in, unload, jump out. Time elapsed: only the absolute necessary required for the bomb to lock + 10 seconds. Then again, that sounds too much like a SSM strike...
Wouldn't it be better to make bombs themselves smarter and/or faster?
Yeah that's pretty much an SSM strike. Maybe we'll see different types of SSM strikes being employed.
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Yo dawg, I herd you liek tagging, so we replaced SSM with Subspace TAG missiles, so you can tag while you tag.
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I agree with wanting to blow up heavier shipping but it shouldn't be overdone. As it stands the UEF has roughly 6 months before logisitics start to wear thin IIRC. And bombers look expensive...
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Or be able to make shock bombing runs.
Jump in, unload, jump out. Time elapsed: only the absolute necessary required for the bomb to lock + 10 seconds. Then again, that sounds too much like a SSM strike...
Wouldn't it be better to make bombs themselves smarter and/or faster?
Sounds like it could work with Vassago's Dirge chain-jumping. Jump in, wreak havoc under dense enemy fire, survive, jump out the instant your drives recharge, rearm/repair, jump somewhere else.
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The Lucifer did that in AoA, but only in text. It never actually did so during the course of the campaign.
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Or be able to make shock bombing runs.
Jump in, unload, jump out. Time elapsed: only the absolute necessary required for the bomb to lock + 10 seconds. Then again, that sounds too much like a SSM strike...
Wouldn't it be better to make bombs themselves smarter and/or faster?
Sounds like it could work with Vassago's Dirge chain-jumping. Jump in, wreak havoc under dense enemy fire, survive, jump out the instant your drives recharge, rearm/repair, jump somewhere else.
The Carthage and Atreus are referenced as having special sprint/tactical drives that could allow them to do this.
If the Tev campaign does get off the ground I intend to do some **** about this sort of hit-and-fade attacks.
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Or be able to make shock bombing runs.
Jump in, unload, jump out. Time elapsed: only the absolute necessary required for the bomb to lock + 10 seconds. Then again, that sounds too much like a SSM strike...
Wouldn't it be better to make bombs themselves smarter and/or faster?
Sounds like it could work with Vassago's Dirge chain-jumping. Jump in, wreak havoc under dense enemy fire, survive, jump out the instant your drives recharge, rearm/repair, jump somewhere else.
The Carthage and Atreus are referenced as having special sprint/tactical drives that could allow them to do this.
If the Tev campaign does get off the ground I intend to do some **** about this sort of hit-and-fade attacks.
Is there any organization for a Tev campaign?
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Or be able to make shock bombing runs.
Jump in, unload, jump out. Time elapsed: only the absolute necessary required for the bomb to lock + 10 seconds. Then again, that sounds too much like a SSM strike...
Wouldn't it be better to make bombs themselves smarter and/or faster?
Sounds like it could work with Vassago's Dirge chain-jumping. Jump in, wreak havoc under dense enemy fire, survive, jump out the instant your drives recharge, rearm/repair, jump somewhere else.
The Carthage and Atreus are referenced as having special sprint/tactical drives that could allow them to do this.
If the Tev campaign does get off the ground I intend to do some **** about this sort of hit-and-fade attacks.
Is there any organization for a Tev campaign?
Yes. The only real establishment is the channel #bp-tev on irc.
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Or be able to make shock bombing runs.
Jump in, unload, jump out. Time elapsed: only the absolute necessary required for the bomb to lock + 10 seconds. Then again, that sounds too much like a SSM strike...
Wouldn't it be better to make bombs themselves smarter and/or faster?
Sounds like it could work with Vassago's Dirge chain-jumping. Jump in, wreak havoc under dense enemy fire, survive, jump out the instant your drives recharge, rearm/repair, jump somewhere else.
The Carthage and Atreus are referenced as having special sprint/tactical drives that could allow them to do this.
If the Tev campaign does get off the ground I intend to do some **** about this sort of hit-and-fade attacks.
Is there any organization for a Tev campaign?
Yes. The only real establishment is the channel #bp-tev on irc.
If you want to join in it's on the server esper.net :yes:
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Right now even things such as Fredding (and viewing nameplates for the wiki) is hampered by my (lack of) graphics card. Once I get a card that can deal with things above 4 fps, I'll see if I can not only join but be of some help as well.
Delande est was a big mission that was the conclusion of half a campaign of strategy for the GTVA. It represents probably the best space battle I've seen in the Freespace 2 engine. More battles like that, as the war winds down, would be awesome.
As much of a Tev fanboy as I am, it'd be nice to see the Federation thinking a little further ahead than it has so far. I understand their pacifist roots limit them, but the Wargods definitely took the bait a little hard.
In the event of outside intervention / some type of unsteady alliance between the Tevs and Buntu should definitely involve Narayana's disabling turrets and the Tevs taking out large targets.
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I agree with wanting to blow up heavier shipping but it shouldn't be overdone. As it stands the UEF has roughly 6 months before logisitics start to wear thin IIRC. And bombers look expensive...
Oh I agree that it shouldn't be overdone for fear of making a big explosion feel commonplace. It's just that after seeing 2 Hecates, the serkr team, the Atreus, and the Carthage escape right out from under my nose I've got an urge for a big bang. This buildup in the first part of WiH will make the inevitable explosion all the sweeter though :drevil:.
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Well Battuta said that for bombers to become effective they'd have to get either much lighter or a lot heavier...
I guess the Vajradhara is more on the heavy side. Still it doesnt seem to be that well shielded.
On the topic of blowing stuff up
There Werent any depot&freighter destruction missions in wih. Neither a mission where you take something on yourself. Exept the secondlast one.
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On the topic of blowing stuff up
There Werent any depot&freighter destruction missions in wih. Neither a mission where you take something on yourself. Exept the secondlast one.
I can't speak for Dilmah and Snail, but I've got one of those in the draft of BP:SoW I'm FREDing.
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I agree with wanting to blow up heavier shipping but it shouldn't be overdone. As it stands the UEF has roughly 6 months before logisitics start to wear thin IIRC. And bombers look expensive...
Oh I agree that it shouldn't be overdone for fear of making a big explosion feel commonplace. It's just that after seeing 2 Hecates, the serkr team, the Atreus, and the Carthage escape right out from under my nose I've got an urge for a big bang. This buildup in the first part of WiH will make the inevitable explosion all the sweeter though :drevil:.
Heard! I was furious when the Meridian jumped out, I wanted Severanti's skull adorning the bow of my Uhlan!
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You can destroy the Meridian if you're lucky.
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No you can't.
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I can't speak for Dilmah and Snail, but I've got one of those in the draft of BP:SoW I'm FREDing.
BP: SoW?
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They're thinking of calling it Spectrum of War.
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It has a name of its' own? A very good sign.
I was kind of partial to the name 'Angels Fall First', because that's what happens in a war in heaven, but that is good too.
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That one is kind of taken by a huge pan-mod thing.
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It has a name of its' own? A very good sign.
I was kind of partial to the name 'Angels Fall First', because that's what happens in a war in heaven, but that is good too.
And a mission!
Darius actually asked if we wanted a board here once, but we only had one halfway decent mission and a ****ty mission FREDed up, so we declined until we got more awesome stuff going.
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He did? Bah, you guys never tell me anything! :P
And now that I've got time and Snail's back, we should probably organize an IRC sesh.
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I always thought that the next generation of GTVA bombers would be Nahema-like bombers with enough speed to outrun heavier fighters, and anything but interceptors on afterburners.
Yo dawg, I herd you liek tagging, so we replaced SSM with Subspace TAG missiles, so you can tag while you tag.
I did something similar once, for teh lulz. If you combine it with cluster bombs ... well ... (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThereIsNoKillLikeOverkill)
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They're thinking of calling it Spectrum of War.
Actually Spectrum of War is just the name of the full-length (~30 missions) campaign that is the 'ultimate' goal of the project. Plans are (AFAIK) to create a couple mini-campaigns just to get the thing off the ground first.
I always thought that the next generation of GTVA bombers would be Nahema-like bombers with enough speed to outrun heavier fighters, and anything but interceptors on afterburners.
That might be useful, but I don't think it would be any more survivable than an Artemis or Rhea in a suicide run, unless it can reliably hold its own in a dogfight. Nahemas were dangerous but still died by the bucketload, and that was to Capella-era fighters.
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There are going to be Shivans, right?
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So I was watching Sunglare again and I catch sight of an Aten cruiser. Like lolwut? Vasudans still use Aten? WRYYYYY!?!
Looking forward to seeing a couple new Vasudan ships and stuff in WiH2.
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Eh. Terrans still use Leviathans.
And we still don't know what was the post-Capella ship (re-)design doctrine for the Vasudans. They could have made much more retrofit on Capella-era ships than the Terrans do, and I'm sure an Aten with some pulse turrets can make a very tough opponent.
Or maybe they just converted them into freighters.
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Atens get used for light convoy escort and **** with upgraded weapons suites and armor.
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I'm willing to hazard that in BP lore the Vasudan presence in Sol doesn't consist of frontline assets (excluding the Vacuum cleaner).
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Correct so far, may or may not change.
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So no next-gen Vasudan ships so far? Awww...
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What no we have plenty of options for next-gen Vasudans, including the obvious (stratcomm) and the not.
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What no we have plenty of options for next-gen Vasudans, including the obvious (stratcomm) and the not.
StratComm's Vasudan ships are kind of icky by modern standards...
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What no we have plenty of options for next-gen Vasudans, including the obvious (stratcomm) and the not.
StratComm's Vasudan ships are kind of icky by modern standards...
Most things are kind of icky by modern standards...
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What no we have plenty of options for next-gen Vasudans, including the obvious (stratcomm) and the not.
StratComm's Vasudan ships are kind of icky by modern standards...
Most things are kind of icky by modern standards...
Yeah. :/
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More of a testament to how fricken' awesome the modern things are rather than problems with the older stuff, really...
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So no next-gen Vasudan ships so far? Awww...
Remember that in WiH1 the Vasudans were only giving logistical support to the GTVA. I think the only reason why there even was a Hatshepsut in Sol was, the presence of the Admiral who was supposed to meet with the Elder. Either that or it was sent as escort after the Pesejet was attacked by the GEFs.
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So no next-gen Vasudan ships so far? Awww...
Remember that in WiH1 the Vasudans were only giving logistical support to the GTVA. I think the only reason why there even was a Hatshepsut in Sol was, the presence of the Admiral who was supposed to meet with the Elder. Either that or it was sent as escort after the Pesejet was attacked by the GEFs.
Yeah. I got some info from battsy and the team on the subject on IRC. Interesting stuff is planned...
Also it's Gefs.
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1: I'd love to see a tev destroyer launching an SSM strike
2: I have this Idea about variable SSM power, so the amount of torps is dependnet on how many TAGs hit the target. I don't know if it's at all possible but I just thought of a workaround that includes mesuring how many ships from the SSM wing made it to the firing distance
3: more gefs and at least one more gef ship (a bomber perhaps)
4: mabe some sort of ship that forms a bridge between Fs2 and BP era tev ships. like a Deimos with new textures, using pulse weapons and blue beams. It's Logical that GTVA built some ships like this - otherwise there had to be someone who said - Right. So we have this cool new weapons but we won't deploy them for two years, untill we have this cool new corvettes finished (building warships takes time. Even more if they're prototypes) cause it would be so uncool to place these cool weapons on this 80% finished but totally uncool Deimos we have in Vega shipyard...
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2: I have this Idea about variable SSM power, so the amount of torps is dependnet on how many TAGs hit the target. I don't know if it's at all possible but I just thought of a workaround that includes mesuring how many ships from the SSM wing made it to the firing distance
That's actually how it works right now.
3: more gefs and at least one more gef ship (a bomber perhaps)
You'll get that.
4: mabe some sort of ship that forms a bridge between Fs2 and BP era tev ships. like a Deimos with new textures, using pulse weapons and blue beams. It's Logical that GTVA built some ships like this - otherwise there had to be someone who said - Right. So we have this cool new weapons but we won't deploy them for two years, untill we have this cool new corvettes finished (building warships takes time. Even more if they're prototypes) cause it would be so uncool to place these cool weapons on this 80% finished but totally uncool Deimos we have in Vega shipyard...
We like the recently released Arpyia, though it'll be renamed. But if you read the tech descriptions for the blue beams most of them won't work on the older ships.
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The Arpyia seems to have a similar role to the Diomedes.
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Yeah. Perhaps it could be a fusion of the front-on attack ability of the Chimera and Bellerophon and the fighter-launching capabilities of the Diomedes (or, if it's a pre-'third-wave' ship, an earlier model that the newer ships specialised and refined).
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That's actually how it works right now.
:nervous: didn't notice. guess i was too busy staying alive :nervous:
You'll get that.
:D
We like the recently released Arpyia, though it'll be renamed. But if you read the tech descriptions for the blue beams most of them won't work on the older ships.
I cant check that out as my graphics card recently got fried and a massive system crash followed so i'm working on a integrated pice of **** witch made me uninstall FSO and FS2 out of sheer frustration of not being able to play WiH anymore but IIRC it was related to the reactor. This means that new beams can't be retrofitted to existing ships but some new ones could have been launched with both new weapons and reactors as testbeds. Also whats Apyia. I assume it's some sort of a new model. Are there any screenshots you can point to??
OH and 5: I know and understand your decision to stick to engine-based cutscenes but some sort of short BP intro to replace the stock Volition FS2 one would be a nice touch nothing special mabe even only some sort of a short logo
<edit> lot's of bad spelling corrected
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We'd definitely like a quick, prerendered intro.
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Yeah. Perhaps it could be a fusion of the front-on attack ability of the Chimera and Bellerophon and the fighter-launching capabilities of the Diomedes (or, if it's a pre-'third-wave' ship, an earlier model that the newer ships specialised and refined).
It looks more traditional than Stratcomms ships alright. Throw a little bit of blue in there and fill it with Atalantas and call it the Deimos's mean uncle. Turrets 1 and 17 scream shock jump, but the design screams broadside. It could be the grand daddy of the Chimera or perhaps a response to the relatively larger and more 'destroyer like' frigates of the UEF.
The linear pipe running down the hull is also reminiscent of the Chimera and Bellerophon.
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I recall it also has a similar engine setup to the Deimos.
I wonder what other ships the Gefs use. Is it sekret?
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http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=73376.msg1448034#msg1448034
A little shortcut for those too lazy to use search :p
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http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=73376.msg1448034#msg1448034
A little shortcut for those too lazy to use search :p
Norbert, just wanted to thank you for your VA work, you were awesome. Got a few of you in there.
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Thank you. It was fun and I also learned something from it.
Oh and on the matter of VA: Please keep me in mind if the Labouchere ever makes an appearance in later BP parts ;) . She was the first VA role I ever had and will always have a special place in my heart and vocal chords :lol:
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We'd definitely like a quick, prerendered intro.
:(
I still don't like the idea of having any prerendered cutscenes, because BP has always been about in-game cutscene fredding magic. Not to mention that a prerendered cutscene will look outdated sooner or later whereas in-game visuals keep getting better.
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...but the retail FS2 intro that's used now is not only really dated compared to the gameplay, it's also kinda... less relevant, now that the Sol gate is open.
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We'd definitely like a quick, prerendered intro.
:(
I still don't like the idea of having any prerendered cutscenes, because BP has always been about in-game cutscene fredding magic. Not to mention that a prerendered cutscene will look outdated sooner or later whereas in-game visuals keep getting better.
I don't think a ten second shot of a BP logo over Earth will hurt.
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...but the retail FS2 intro that's used now is not only really dated compared to the gameplay, it's also kinda... less relevant, now that the Sol gate is open.
Put in empty opening cutscene to override the retail one. Problem solved.
I don't think a ten second shot of a BP logo over Earth will hurt.
Same thing really as using empty cutscene override. Of course this one has a bit more style. I think it's fine since it wouldn't use in-game assets or try to copy them.
I keep forgetting mah culurz...
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Oh **** me too.
The empty opening one was causing errors or something.
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We'd definitely like a quick, prerendered intro.
:(
I still don't like the idea of having any prerendered cutscenes, because BP has always been about in-game cutscene fredding magic. Not to mention that a prerendered cutscene will look outdated sooner or later whereas in-game visuals keep getting better.
I don't think a ten second shot of a BP logo over Earth will hurt.
Somehow I've got this untasteful image of the letters 'BP' superimposed over the gulf of mexico...
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Some scripting for zooming. Space ships with scopes, if you will, and some cool way to use them. Maybe a prototype dumbfire with huge cooldown and epic point damage?
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Zoom script already exists (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70411.0).
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Cool. So could we see some usage in WIH2?
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Want to see in R2: Sniper mission with the zoom script.
If you guys don't do it, I will :p
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Some action on the other side of the Terran Knossos. Maybe some recon missions where you fly around outside of Sol.
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Some action on the other side of the Terran Knossos. Maybe some recon missions where you fly around outside of Sol.
There is only one way out of Sol, and I think the blockade forces on both ends would be punishingly bad. The UEF are not getting through the Serpentis node without crushing the GTVA in Sol, crushing the node defences on their end, and then accepting collosal losses to force the node defences on the otherside. If they even have the ability to defeat the node defences.
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Remember Forced Ejection?
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Remember Forced Ejection?
Not really representative, man. (The GTVA did not come off well back before the big restart.)
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And given the kind of assets that the Tevs have to hand, I could and would do some REALLY nasty things about node defence. Seed the immediate area around the node with a massive minefield of SGs and Mjolnirs, have a permanent CSP and fleet stationed there, perhaps two battlegroups rotating in readiness alert. Meson bombs ready to deploy in scorched earth tactics, fixed installations and defences even further back to support this.
You could do all sorts of nasty things when defending a node.
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I fly 1x stealth fighter in. I solid snake their asses with cardboard boxes.
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I think they'd get a clue when you warped out at the Node, and then they'd make sure to get you at the other side. So.. yeah, I don't think so, I imagine there are contingencies for stealth craft attempting to get through.
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I think they'd get a clue when you warped out at the Node, and then they'd make sure to get you at the other side. So.. yeah, I don't think so, I imagine there are contingencies for stealth craft attempting to get through.
Steele let a bunch of Pegasai slip into the hands of the Gefs, so he will have contingencies, it is almost a fact.
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Err no. The Pegasi that murdered the Elder were SOC, not Gefs.
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Read the conversations (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70645.0)
The UEF had access to at least a few Pegasus stealth fighters.
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Err no. The Pegasi that murdered the Elder were SOC, not Gefs.
As above said, it doesn't change that they did let the stealth fighters fall into their hands. I might be wrong with it being Gef, as it could be UEFie, but it's one of the two.
"We allowed a number of Pegasus hulls to fall into their hands intact last year in preparation for an eventuality like this one. The strike element fighters are identical to those craft, down to the serial numbers on individual components. If debris from lost strike elements is recovered on-scene, we can explain it away as components from those ships or fabricated duplicates. Same goes for any Maxim rounds their forensics may collect."
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Read the conversations (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70645.0)
The UEF had access to at least a few Pegasus stealth fighters.
Actually, Dave raises a good point. It might not be the UEF, it might well be the Gefs who are being referenced, after all, it isn't stated.
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Hm, I guess this was mentioned before...but what about the 70th Blue Lions?
Any plans to include them...or were they disbanded after Capella due to heavy losses?
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That they aren't sent to Sol doesn't mean they got disbanded, after all the majority of the GTVA fleet is still in their own terretory, guarding against the possible return of the Shivans, policing the spacelanes and standing ready to deal with riots.
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The Blue Lions are probably assigned to patrol the systems near Capella, seeing as their squad leader knows a lot about those systems... ;)
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Or is dead. Or has moved on, it's been a long time.
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Maybe he was dishonorably discharged since the only way I ever survived Capella was to let the third convoy get ripped to pieces while i sat in the node feeling kinda guilty. :(
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Didn't Steele's bio say he used to be a fighter pilot?
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Didn't Steele's bio say he used to be a fighter pilot?
He's not Alpha 1, we've been over this in the past :p
But yes, he's a pilot who fought his way up the career ladder.
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Steele could have been an Alpha 1 somewhere. I can't think of any other way to describe his awesome.
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Unpossible. Alpha 1 never talks.
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Steele could have been an Alpha 1 somewhere. I can't think of any other way to describe his awesome.
Well, that we agree on
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He may have been the Alpha 1 in the demo campaign.
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He was 99th Skulls
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The demo campaign squadron logo is 99th Skulls if I remember correctly.
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Heh, killing Pegasus fighters is fun.
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Did you think about adding energy using missles? Just an idea. Might be interesting for gameplay/balancing.
I would imagine them to be like the usual missles, just with more ammo and energy using. The explanation is, that the (lagre) explosive charge was removed and replaced by a small containment field generator to save storage space. Just before launch, the containment field is activated and filled with plasma/insert technobabble . This acts as explosive.
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Moar chest candy.
And medals.
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Did you think about adding energy using missles? Just an idea. Might be interesting for gameplay/balancing.
I would imagine them to be like the usual missles, just with more ammo and energy using. The explanation is, that the (lagre) explosive charge was removed and replaced by a small containment field generator to save storage space. Just before launch, the containment field is activated and filled with plasma/insert technobabble . This acts as explosive.
Can't really imagine for that to work, the mechanism to store energy'd be as big as a warhead probably. Can however imagine having some sort of 'gadgets' instead of secondaries which use up energy (an EMP field, shield recharge battery etc), which I think someone was scripting or working on.
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Did you think about adding energy using missles? Just an idea. Might be interesting for gameplay/balancing.
I would imagine them to be like the usual missles, just with more ammo and energy using. The explanation is, that the (lagre) explosive charge was removed and replaced by a small containment field generator to save storage space. Just before launch, the containment field is activated and filled with plasma/insert technobabble . This acts as explosive.
This would require some coding, cause secondaries right now cannot/will not use energy on use at all.
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Corpses :pimp:
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Did you think about adding energy using missles? Just an idea. Might be interesting for gameplay/balancing.
I would imagine them to be like the usual missles, just with more ammo and energy using. The explanation is, that the (lagre) explosive charge was removed and replaced by a small containment field generator to save storage space. Just before launch, the containment field is activated and filled with plasma/insert technobabble . This acts as explosive.
This would require some coding, cause secondaries right now cannot/will not use energy on use at all.
Well we could fake it...with SEXPs...
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Did you think about adding energy using missles? Just an idea. Might be interesting for gameplay/balancing.
I would imagine them to be like the usual missles, just with more ammo and energy using. The explanation is, that the (lagre) explosive charge was removed and replaced by a small containment field generator to save storage space. Just before launch, the containment field is activated and filled with plasma/insert technobabble . This acts as explosive.
This would require some coding, cause secondaries right now cannot/will not use energy on use at all.
Well we could fake it...with SEXPs...
Missile-like primaries?
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What do you want in the rest of War in Heaven?
Stealth, sabotage and special ops missions behind enemy lines, prototype ships and weapons eval (kinda like SOC loop in FS2)... Maybe after becoming a Fedayeen?
Nebula missions (say its gas giant atmosphere if the campaign is only in Sol)
Tactical microjumps (inside mission area).
And Shivans! :P
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Since the steath fighter is already ingame I'm pretty sure it will be used in WiH2.
And there already is one in-mission jump in WiH1, though granted it isn't tactical or anything, just a short hop to a place were Laporte can train with her (not so) shiny and (not at all) new Kent and get's ambushed by those elite Nyxes.
As for Shivans, I doubt they will be in, unless there is another nightmare mission, that fore-shadows BP3, since the team said time and again they want to have the GTVA-UEF war resolved before without any outside interference (Vasudans are part of the GTVA and thus probably don't count as "outside").
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Well it was in the last preview - the ainsarii is an assassin, not a scout. I figure it can sneak up on a target and polish it off fast, but it needs its stealth to avoid prolonged combat.
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Another thing - asteroid bases. There should be plenty of them in the belt. And a mission in close proximity of the Sun, like the one with the Indus falling.
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Since the steath fighter is already ingame I'm pretty sure it will be used in WiH2.
And there already is one in-mission jump in WiH1, though granted it isn't tactical or anything, just a short hop to a place were Laporte can train with her (not so) shiny and (not at all) new Kent and get's ambushed by those elite Nyxes.
I take it you've played Vassago's Dirge? If WiH has tactical jumping half as good as VD it would still be supremely awesome!
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So here's a question, in Freespace 1 the Vasudans were better at reactor and thruster technology than the Terrans. In Freespace 2, the Vasudans seemed better in every technological regard.
What disadvantages do the Vasudans have in BP?
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So here's a question, in Freespace 1 the Vasudans were better at reactor and thruster technology than the Terrans. In Freespace 2, the Vasudans seemed better in every technological regard.
What disadvantages do the Vasudans have in BP?
Simple.
THEY'RE VASUDAN.
Bwaah muah hah hee ho.
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So, none then.
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So, none then.
No genitals is a disadvantage.
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Being butt-ugly and having an arcane language system.
It can't possibly help with interpersonal relationships.
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Doesn't matter much on a battlefield.
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Their cruisers suck.
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Cruisers in general suck. Your point ?
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Cruisers in general suck. Your point ?
Nah, fighters are overkill in FS.
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I think it was said in the BP-verse Vasudans are approximately 0.5 to 1 whole generation of technology ahead of the GTVA Terrans. If I remember well they also have a very scary large fleet.
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I think it was said in the BP-verse Vasudans are approximately 0.5 to 1 whole generation of technology ahead of the GTVA Terrans. If I remember well they also have a very scary large fleet.
check my sig :p
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That stopped being funny a year ago, now it's just pathetic.
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Can't really imagine for that to work, the mechanism to store energy'd be as big as a warhead probably.
Bullets from primaries seem to hold their energy with no mechanism at all!
Maybe it wouldd be a good idea to throw in a few more missions which have low amounts of action then in WIH. Like a destroy cargo mission with just a few gun platforms an no enemy reinforcements. Or a mission in proximity to a busy installation, whith lots of comm traffic and with a lot of freighters, transports and other ships doing their thing. Could be some kind of "secret meeting in one man fighters". Or a "find secret cargo" mission. A few more ship and weapon familiarisation missions would also be cool. "Pawns on a board of Bone" was pretty cool for getting to kow the Uriel and Archer because there was low pressure and you could take your time.
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Bear in mind that all the missions for R2 have been outlined since before R1 FREDding even got well along, so changes to that outline are likely to be limited.
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Yup. It's just that part 1 had very few parts where i as a player could take a break, familiarize myself with my equipment, the story, and just enjoy the scenery. Or put another way: There was su much action in it, that i didn't have enougth time to enjoy all the other qualities WIH has. At the same time there was a lot of diary reading. Maybe some of the story that is in the Diary could be told through comm messages during a non story significant, low action mission.
Actually you did exactly that in "One perfect moment" . And in "The Intervention". The KEN mission doesn't count. ^^ Thinking more about it I realize, that many other missions also had such parts in it. Still the feeling that i didn't have enougth breaks remains. Maybe you even intended that.^^
Thinking back to the FS2 campaign i remember that there was a lot of speculation going on amongst the pilots during the missions. I think WIH has very few of that.
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I kinda like it how you get dumped in with new stuff and get dropped into high stress situations. I mean, Earth's under siege and the UEF isn't doing that great. It helps with the sense of urgency and distress, especially since the main char gets her first experience of real war in the campaign.
Reading gigantic walls of text started to grate on my nerves at about 2 hours in. Then again, I bet the thing isn't really meant to be marathon'd.
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I can't marathon War in Heaven.
I do agree with the getting dumped with new stuff and being expected to fly them as though I've flown them before. Embodiment of this trope is the Uriel.
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I can't marathon War in Heaven.
I do agree with the getting dumped with new stuff and being expected to fly them as though I've flown them before. Embodiment of this trope is the Uriel.
Yeah. The Intervention was great because it gave you a nice introduction to the Kent, but being chucked into the Uriel for Pawns kind of made me hate that ship.
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i've never had a problem with getting "dumped" in a fighter. unless there are extremely retarded primary mounts, all FS ships feel exactly the same other than turn rate.
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Same, looking back the only thing I ever wish I knew about my ship beforehand was how long can your ship survive in flak fire (it can't), and the second mission where you warp into a flak screen told me that.
Weapon wise I do wish you put an update or something at the end of the briefings when you had access to a new secondary armament. Nothing big, but maybe just a message saying "Update: new weapon available *insert weapon name*" to let us know to check the loadout. I was on my second playthrough of R1 before I realized during one mission I had access to some kind of UEF Trebuchet equivalent, though I can't remember it's name.
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Grimmler I think it's called, but I think its usefulness in the campaign is limited.
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Grimmler is a UEF trebuchet. It's handy. It's strong too and homes well. Subsystems suffer greatly from it also and I think it fires from about 5K - 4,5K distance.
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It is actually very useful, why it is ignored is just because it is overshadowed by the Slammer.
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Same, looking back the only thing I ever wish I knew about my ship beforehand was how long can your ship survive in flak fire (it can't), and the second mission where you warp into a flak screen told me that.
Brie doesn't tell you to get clear of the flak or you'll get splashed for nothing!
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In the time he takes to tell you how dangerous flak is, you would have been shredded twice. :p
Grimmler I think it's called, but I think its usefulness in the campaign is limited.
I've never used it myself because there is always a limited supply of them. However, I've heard enough from established HLPers to know that it's powerful.
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First time I played that mission, I died really really fast. I don't think the Aeolus was in my field of vision, or I had turned to present a blind spot, so I wasted too much time going "WHO THE **** IS SHOOTING ME!!!" and flying in wrong directions.
Second time I pulled the opposite of a beeline and still barely scraped by with like 50% hull left. Flak hurts.
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Grimmler I think it's called, but I think its usefulness in the campaign is limited.
I've never used it myself because there is always a limited supply of them. However, I've heard enough from established HLPers to know that it's powerful.
The Grimler is good if you don't know how to aim your Archer (and if your Paveways keep getting shot down or something).
They're also good at hitting heavy bombers, though you probably want more Slammers for that.
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I think UEF can do to stop the massive advance of the forces of GTVA through surgical strikes, so will damage the logistics and force the GTVA to negotiate a cease-fire
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The problem with that is locating the logistics ships first. That the wargods were able to find, catch and capture the Agincourt was only due to someone (most likely former Admiral Carey) from the GTVA leaking the jump schedule to the UEF.
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I think UEF can do to stop the massive advance of the forces of GTVA through surgical strikes, so will damage the logistics and force the GTVA to negotiate a cease-fire
Also, main problem with that (at least given the strategic setting at the end of WiH) is that logistics are currently assured by Vasudans, and the UEF definitely want to avoid them entering open hostilities.
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I don't really like using Slammers.
Strangely enough, despite the awe-inspiring arsenal of UEF missiles, I seem to like using only the Maul and Rapier in WiH. Maybe it's because the Shivans tend to rely a lot more on primaries, but then again... :nervous:
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Also, main problem with that (at least given the strategic setting at the end of WiH) is that logistics are currently assured by Vasudans, and the UEF definitely want to avoid them entering open hostilities.
That's not true. If I remember it correctly, then someone in mission said something about the wargod cutting a quater out of the GTVAs logistical abilities, that would mean at least two other Anemois if the Presedjet was already in system by that time (which I doubt).
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I think captured Jovian installations also count for logistics, not only Anemois and Tawarets.
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In modern supply chain theory what determines your output is the bottleneck. (Obviously in hindsight) it doesn't matter to your output if you add say, more wrapper machines when you haven't got enough chocolate mixers. Though of course the jump node is the bottleneck for the GTVA, aside from that they have bottlenecks on the Sol side too. Thus 'a 1/4 of the GTVA's logistics capability is really quite vague - what part of the chain does it refer to? The 1 Anemoi = 1/4, therefore GTVA have 3 Logistic ships and captured UEF facilities equal to 1 ship = 4 Anemois type of reasoning is an oversimplication imo. What can the Vasuadans do? To what degree can they alleviate the bottleneck, and will be the new bottleneck? Realistically they can help out in all sorts of places, but there might still be major holes - for example they might not be able to help with destroyer repair.
This also lead me to think about the Hecate. We know the Hecate was designed before logistic ships and lead an expedition out into the Nebula. Does that mean despite its medicore combat abilities the Hecate runs on fewer supplies or carries more internally? Is the new fleet, designed in parallel or after supply ships, designed to be dependent upon them, maximizing combat capabilities at the cost of supply capacity? Is that why we see Hecates (Meridian and Hood) in the Sol theater, as they provide more logistic bang per buck (in addition to keeping some new fleet assets in reserve in case of a Shivan invasion)?
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A large part of the advantage to Vasudan logistics is that they're basically diplomatically invulnerable.
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It sounds like American supply convoys early in WWII, except that the UEF knows it needs to keep inside the lines to win.
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Not a position I'd like to find myself in. being in a position where both sides are crying out for my support is frustrating. Though the fact that the Vasudans were so easily swayed by rumor and false intel to the point that they didn't even begin to search for evidence shows ulterior motive from the Vasudans... I'll lay fake monies that there is an unspoken deal between either the Vasudans in general and Steele or just the admiral on that Vasudan Destroyer in WiH...
EDIT: additional thoughts
What do I want to see? I want to see an explanation for the ship that jumped in with a hostile IFF in the WiH finale and then disappeared from sensors the instant I got its IFF... Nobody saw it, nobody said a thing, and I didn't have time to investigate it.
Then my AWACS gets melted in the face.
I smell a rat.
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What do I want to see? I want to see an explanation for the ship that jumped in with a hostile IFF in the WiH finale and then disappeared from sensors the instant I got its IFF... Nobody saw it, nobody said a thing, and I didn't have time to investigate it.
Then my AWACS gets melted in the face.
There was an actual ship? I always assumed the Carthage somehow managed to TAG the AWACS, for some reason.
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The Five-Disc Complete Collector's Edition Blu-ray. Featuring the 'War in Heaven: The Final Cut' , spectacularly restored and remastered from original elements and scanned at 4K resolution, containing never-before-seen added/extended scenes, added lines, new and improved special effects, director and fredder commentary, an all-new 5.1 Dolby® Digital audio track and more.. Plus the other four versions of the campaign and 10 hours of additional bonus features. All packaged in a snazzy tin with a UEFg Karuna scale miniature.
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The Five-Disc Complete Collector's Edition Blu-ray. Featuring the 'War in Heaven: The Final Cut' , spectacularly restored and remastered from original elements and scanned at 4K resolution, containing never-before-seen added/extended scenes, added lines, new and improved special effects, director and fredder commentary, an all-new 5.1 Dolby® Digital audio track and more.. Plus the other four versions of the campaign and 10 hours of additional bonus features. All packaged in a snazzy tin with a UEFg Karuna scale miniature.
I would so buy that.
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What do I want to see? I want to see an explanation for the ship that jumped in with a hostile IFF in the WiH finale and then disappeared from sensors the instant I got its IFF... Nobody saw it, nobody said a thing, and I didn't have time to investigate it.
Then my AWACS gets melted in the face.
What mission? Delenda Est?
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That's the fighter that TAGs your support ship. An Aurora I think...
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A large part of the advantage to Vasudan logistics is that they're basically diplomatically invulnerable.
If the Vasudan logistic ships ever get attacked by the UEF the Vasudans have absolutely no right to be outraged about it, after all they are helping in the invasion by giving logistic support and thus they are a far more legitimate targets than the fleeing civilians that were killed under Steels orders.
If I was in charge of the UEF and caught a Vasudan logistic ship, I'd capture it and send the crew (as unharmed as possible) back home along with the above statement.
Supplying weapons to an enemy (or doing any more than emergency repairs to enemy weapons) isn't neutral at all. It's a declaration of war in it's own right, coupled with the lack of resolve to go all the way.
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Whether or not they have a right to get outraged by it, however, they're probably going to get outraged. The Vasudans are a people of ornate and complex protocol and I suspect that they view logistical intervention as proportionate retaliation for the UEF's deceptive attempt to capture two of their ships. If the UEF attacks their ships it would be further escalation.
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But they provided the support before the Presedjet was attacked, why else would it be present in Sol? You don't send a massive and costly logistics ship to observe the situation.
What justification do they have for providing support without any provocation from the UEF?
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"Consider this a gift from the enemy of your enemy."
That made me think.. who's the real enemy?
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That really was confusing...
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But they provided the support before the Presedjet was attacked, why else would it be present in Sol? You don't send a massive and costly logistics ship to observe the situation.
What justification do they have for providing support without any provocation from the UEF?
Preexisting treaty obligation.
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The Five-Disc Complete Collector's Edition Blu-ray. Featuring the 'War in Heaven: The Final Cut' , spectacularly restored and remastered from original elements and scanned at 4K resolution, containing never-before-seen added/extended scenes, added lines, new and improved special effects, director and fredder commentary, an all-new 5.1 Dolby® Digital audio track and more.. Plus the other four versions of the campaign and 10 hours of additional bonus features. All packaged in a snazzy tin with a UEFg Karuna scale miniature.
I would buy that without a doubt!!! :nod:
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While the GTVA as a whole is technically at war with the UEF, the Zods just don't feel concerned by the Sol war, which is why they haven't participated in it for as long as 18 months. The fact they finally sent a logistic ship during WiH is the sum of the war going on for too long already (Zods fear as much as the Tevs an attack by Shivans at any moment, and the GTVA can't afford to be still caught in the Sol war the next time they return), and Steele's own influence at the highest level of the GTVA, more than any will of the Zods to crush the UEF.
Overall the Zods are still reluctant to really get involved in the war, the UEF knows that, and that's why they try to avoid bothering them too much. The Zods already have a Hattie in-system, the UEF just can't afford a destroyer of that magnitude to engage open hostilities, and even less to see more Zod reinforcements pouring from DS.
Also, ^5 for the WiH Collector edition. Just put it on a real storage system instead of Blue-ray. Trololo
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What do I want to see? I want to see an explanation for the ship that jumped in with a hostile IFF in the WiH finale and then disappeared from sensors the instant I got its IFF... Nobody saw it, nobody said a thing, and I didn't have time to investigate it.
Then my AWACS gets melted in the face.
There was an actual ship? I always assumed the Carthage somehow managed to TAG the AWACS, for some reason.
I remember seeing a jump in, it turn hostile, and disappear. I'll lay even more fake monies that it was sent by steele.
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I wanted to say 'yes we put that in :smug:' but it looks like something actually got misplaced in the mission. :(
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Well I may just be crazy. Even if I replay it I doubt i'd see it again.
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You might well be right as something like that was supposed to happen, but looking through the mission I don't see...it was supposed to be there!
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If you plan on putting it in, I'd suggest a stealth fighter with the tag missiles rather than an aurora. But the tag might also have come from inside the ship, places by a spy or even GTVA sympathist prior to the engagement and activated remotely.
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But was it not said that a TAG beacon was registering "off the hull"?
Plus the existence of a literal platform to deploy the beacon would give a chance for the PC to notice the strange fighter approaching the AWACS and eliminate it. Unless it was given invul tags or was covered by a swarm of other stealth ships with the exact same mission. AND if the stealth fighter is noticed enough to be engaged, the PC then has to have some kind of dialogue stating "Hey... probably nothing... but I found this stealth fighter launching dirt at our AWACS... just thought someone would like to know... -cough-"
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Yeah, I think a stealth fighter is more appropriate for that. However, since it is an Oculus, which doubles as an AWACS, using a stealth fighter can be considered pointless, as you want something that can actually get away rather than 'stealthed'.
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An AWACS that currently has it's hands full with jamming the weapons of the Carthage and their long range communications to prevent them from calling in help. And if everything works well, the AWACS won't be able to detect the fighter for long, because of being destroyed.
Besides I don't think Steele really cares about the live of a single fighter pilot. Just look at how many fighters and bombers he sacrificed to make his plan work, not to mention the potential loss of five Deimos, two five cruisers (the ships that get disables in the mission before and the ones in Delenda Est, when you take their engines out).
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Steele's fighting the war the way he is to try to minimize loss of life. He knows he's going to lose more people at once, but fewer people overall.
I think an AWACs ship jumping in near the Carthage would be enough to make the change convincing.
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Your suggestion goes against your own statement.
If he tries to minimize the loss of live, sending a single fighter makes more sense than sending an AWACS. The fighter has a higher chance to be shot down after fulfilling his misison than the AWACS, but if the AWACS get's destroyed you lose hundreds or even thousands of lives instead of a single fighter pilot.
Hell, for what little it has to do, the fighters could even be sent on auto-pilot or remote controll. Warp in and fire a single TAG missile. In such a big battle a stealth fighter will only be noticed once it opens fire, but by then it's already too late to stop the TAG from hitting, even if it's noticed for what it is before hitting.
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The range of the TAG-A is 2 klicks. The TAG-B's range is 1625 m and the TAG-C's is 2665 m. The TAG-A and C may not travel very quickly, but they can hit a big stationary target pretty easily.
If a stealth fighter was indeed responsible for painting the UEA Hanuman, it may be a possible reference to how the player does it in PI.
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I'll have to go back and play PI then... I must learn what you mean.
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The Five-Disc Complete Collector's Edition Blu-ray. Featuring the 'War in Heaven: The Final Cut' , spectacularly restored and remastered from original elements and scanned at 4K resolution, containing never-before-seen added/extended scenes, added lines, new and improved special effects, director and fredder commentary, an all-new 5.1 Dolby® Digital audio track and more.. Plus the other four versions of the campaign and 10 hours of additional bonus features. All packaged in a snazzy tin with a UEFg Karuna scale miniature.
I want... badly o.o scale model ftw! but tbh it could fit on 5 DVD's =p cheaper too!
but seriously do want! o.o
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I'll have to go back and play PI then... I must learn what you mean.
You fly right up to a hostile transport being heavily escorted by elite PCA fighters, hit it with a wire-tapping device from no further than 500m, and get out without them ever noticing you. The only assistance you have is from one of the escorts, who's working undercover. She prevents the other ships from locking on to you once you get to within 500m of the transport. You are flying a Pegasus.
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I hated that mission
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I did too. It was frustrating.
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Needed a skip button for the dialogue.
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I would personnaly like to giv Steelea lesson...
But more seriously, unless i missed something, shouldn't the FED/UEF have beam weapon aswell? since several GTVA ship defected to join them, they must have acuired thetechnology to produce those right?
I would also like to see again the "Labouchère" and the sanctuary, or at least know what they've been doing during all those months. btw aren't ther more soldiers defecting?
(I would prsonaly greatly apreciate a "lighter" uriel gunship, that would be a bit better a dodging while sacrificing the gatling gun (as an example, since i didn't find it that useful compared to wht the Archr can do) but it's probably complicated to change things + i'm the oonly person asking for it, just wishful thinking. )
From my personnal point of view, maybe there could be a little bit more hatred between both sides; apart ffrom Laporte, I don't remember seing much chharacters thirsty for vengeance, though such war woul probably cause alot of it, with so much civilian casualties and such.
And well, even though WiH had a very good plot, (i'm being picky, don't worry), i thought the charaters/ commanders wer maybe a little naive. They got plenty of pilots and fightrs sabotaged when they stole the Agincourt, and with the last missions, they were simply overconfident/over relying on their intel and report. They had a back up plan in case the carthage would run away, but not in the case of wrong intel/ traps. I think most good generals would be like "it's too good to be true".
Well maybe they had a back up plan but it wasn't good enough to take down the imperieuse so thy cancelled it. But it is not really said so it feels like they were a bit careless.
Andd I would have kept firing on the carthge instead of going for the imperieuse, since they seemed to have decent chance of destroying the carthage (especially if they rammed into it)
I'd like to know roughly how many ships each side has, since several ships get destroyed, yet it's hard to see how bad it is to lose a frigate if you dont know how muh are left. (50?) Maybe put some more cruiser too, i can't eally say i they're effective or not, since the Vilnius is meant to be pwnt and I'm too busy to look at what the Vatican is doing.
other ideas... would it be possible to do atmospheric battles?
Maybe we could see some of the rookies Laporte saved durinng the attack on the staions of earth?
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None of these bad ideas.
18 months isn't long enough to get beam weapons into production and fitted to ships built from a very different techbase.
The Wargods knew the risks going in. But their source in the GTVA had previously given them a major victory and they had an opportunity for an even bigger one. (Given the identity of the source, too, some close to the Council of Elders would have vouched heavily for the trustworthiness of the information.) It's easy to say, looking back, that they should have known it was a trap, but it was simply too good an opportunity to pass up. These things happen in real wars.
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But more seriously, unless i missed something, shouldn't the FED/UEF have beam weapon aswell? since several GTVA ship defected to join them, they must have acuired thetechnology to produce those right?
I would also like to see again the "Labouchère" and the sanctuary, or at least know what they've been doing during all those months. btw aren't ther more soldiers defecting?
Yes, they have access to beams from the defected ships, but you can't just take one look and immediately start mass-producing a formerly unknown weapon and just slap them onto your ships.
You have to take them apart, learn how they work, build a few prototypes to learn how to make them effective.
In addition beams need far more energy and produce far more heat than the weapons currently installed on UEF ships, so it's unlikely any UEF ship will be upgraded with beams. Though since it's been almost two years since the defections, MAYBE they already have a ship or two in production that will be equiped with beams once they are finished. Maybe.
And well, even though WiH had a very good plot, (i'm being picky, don't worry), i thought the charaters/ commanders wer maybe a little naive. They got plenty of pilots and fightrs sabotaged when they stole the Agincourt, and with the last missions, they were simply overconfident/over relying on their intel and report. They had a back up plan in case the carthage would run away, but not in the case of wrong intel/ traps. I think most good generals would be like "it's too good to be true".
The problem is that the UEF didn't fight a serious battle ever since the nodes collapsed. They thought themselfs save from the outside universe, untill the GTVA stormed in.
Now there was the Gaian effort, but those guys aren't even a united faction, but rather a group of loosly affiliated tribes with far inferious technology, not a well coordinated, experianced army like the GTVA.
So they have little to no experiance in large scale wars. Also the Wargods were sure they were in controll of the situation and that they manipulated the GTVA troops, when it really was the other way around.
I'd like to know roughly how many ships each side has, since several ships get destroyed, yet it's hard to see how bad it is to lose a frigate if you dont know how muh are left. (50?) Maybe put some more cruiser too, i can't eally say i they're effective or not, since the Vilnius is meant to be pwnt and I'm too busy to look at what the Vatican is doing.
There is this thread among the stickies: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=72393.0
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well thanks for the answer, and yes i meant that maybe a few of the UEF ship could be refitted with some beam canon, maybe a destroyer...
but so from what i see in tht link, the overall casualty record doesn't seem that bad for the wargods and the UEF in general, given the circumstances, and despite what happened in the end to the wargods?
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It's pretty bad. Most of Third Fleet and a chunk of Second Fleet are gone. And there were earlier casualties that have been replaced by wartime production.
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Never mind that, the Shivans will do the rest for the UEF :drevil:
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It's pretty bad. Most of Third Fleet and a chunk of Second Fleet are gone. And there were earlier casualties that have been replaced by wartime production.
Wait. The UEF has the shipyards set up to replace capital hulls rapidly? Given their low normal loss rate and the lack of an apparent need to be ready until now, this seems...unlikely.
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There were definitely hulls in build before the outbreak of hostilities and matters have only accelerated since then. There are specific reasons and general reasons, and the general reasons are bipartite: the first being that infrastructure technology in the FSverse is excellent, particularly in Sol, and the second that your latter assumption isn't entirely correct on a policy level.
Remember the scale at work here; there are multiple populated worlds with good infrastructure in a system with an excellent economy and a government very much in favor of constant industry and production. Between ships in build, ships held near ready state at the time of the outbreak of hostilities, and maybe - there's no clear picture yet - ships kicked together from scratch, they've been able to do something to bring new hulls into action, as well as some pretty major overhauls of their existing ships.
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I suppose it's also sort of related to how the U.S. navy always has another carrier under construction destined to replace the oldest carrier in service at the time. The special construction yards they need for the carriers aren't needed for anything else, so they build carriers at a rate where, once one is completed, it's already time to start another one to replace the next oldest carrier in service. It's not practical to shut down those yards and their vast supporting industries, start them up when you need them again, and shut them down again. It's more cost-efficient to keep them building ships continously, albeit at a lower rate. This would probably apply even moreso to the massive shipyards needed to build capital ships in Freespace. Shipyards aren't something you just turn on and off.
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It's pretty bad. Most of Third Fleet and a chunk of Second Fleet are gone. And there were earlier casualties that have been replaced by wartime production.
Wait. The UEF has the shipyards set up to replace capital hulls rapidly? Given their low normal loss rate and the lack of an apparent need to be ready until now, this seems...unlikely.
Plus the losses during the Imperiuse's blitz
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Remember the scale at work here; there are multiple populated worlds with good infrastructure in a system with an excellent economy and a government very much in favor of constant industry and production. Between ships in build, ships held near ready state at the time of the outbreak of hostilities, and maybe - there's no clear picture yet - ships kicked together from scratch, they've been able to do something to bring new hulls into action, as well as some pretty major overhauls of their existing ships.
This is true, but production facilities still don't appear overnight. The great industrial miracles of the real world were possible not because of well-developed infrastructure (thought it helped), but because there was unused capacity; this is not the case here, unless Sol just went through a depression. Most industry is probably already tasked to capacity and will require time to retask to speed up the production of warships. The first replacement new-built ships would just be joining the fleet at the time WiH ends, and by then in a lot of ways it's too late.
The problem is also probably compounded by the fact that the people with the best infrastructure and industry are the ones least disposed towards maintaining stocks of warships in mothballs or tying up ways with warships in build. (And the ones who were most disposed towards this were the ones who went under first. Which raises the possibility some of Third Fleet's ships were never activated in time to participate and might reappear in GTVA colors for hilarity.)
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I suspect most of the new ships are karunas or narayanas as the techroom states they were in the process of converting the fleet to mostly generalized frigates at the outbreak of hostilities.
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Most industry is probably already tasked to capacity and will require time to retask to speed up the production of warships.
This incorrectly assumes that warships were not already in production, or that no capacity existed to build warships. The military had in general not been in a period of growth but this doesn't imply no production - quite the contrary, in fact. Since old hulls are retired or retasked, or replaced by more modern upgrades, production had to remain active just to keep the fleet static (or even shrinking slightly). There was industry already tasked to building warships as well as ships nearing completion. Then you've got ships that were on their way out that just needed some touching up to be useful shooters.
We're not talking a vast number of new ships here, but several new frigates and many more cruisers came into action during the hostilities. These ships were probably for the most part already under construction before the 14th made its transit.
The problem is also probably compounded by the fact that the people with the best infrastructure and industry are the ones least disposed towards maintaining stocks of warships in mothballs or tying up ways with warships in build.
Again, given the numbers cited above you don't need large stocks of warships in mothballs; given that the total frigate strength in the entire navy at the beginning of R1 is something on the order of 40 hulls, just two or three frigates in mothballs per fleet (which is very conservative given UEF policy; mothballing a spacecraft is pretty easy) would have added sizably to their forces and can practically account for all the wartime additions alone!
Lastly bear in mind that the Federation has excellent management tools. With their setup they get the strengths of both an indirect command economy and a neorationalist market. They can make stuff happen on the industrial level with pretty shocking efficiency.
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edited
In short I don't think it should be particularly astonishing that the UEF managed to partially replace a few frigate and cruiser losses in 18 months given that there were clearly already ships in build.
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Well, thats another thing...The GTVA is modernizing their fleets...do they recycle their old ship or what?
What about a reserve fleet like the nowaday U.S.Navy?
Nothing better than ships, which only need a crew...
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They definitely don't toss them away. You can get a sense of how older ships are used in the tech entries.
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A and theirs another thing...
I would love to see capital ship giving each other covering fire...like Narayana A fires on Deimos b surronded by several Aeolus...and not only the Deimos, but also the Aeolus fire on incoming torpedos...
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That I can guarantee you'll see.
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Made my day...
What about the Iceni-class?
Althogh their was only one ship, it kicked ass.
The plans should be floating around some, so why not build some of them?
They should be quit destructive.
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I believe the Iceni was the frigate equivalent of a super-destroyer. A one of a kind ship that was supposed to kick ass and cost a ton.
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At least we don't know what Admiral Byrne is doing there, maybe more new ships or 'improvised' ships with hillbilly armor and the like, or civilian ships rigged with military grade weapons.
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Could we shoot down SSMs before they jump to another engagement?
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Ohhhhh cool! Yeah I want to do that ^^
EDIT: new page, derp. This is regarding shooting down some SSMs before they jump to wherever.
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This incorrectly assumes that warships were not already in production, or that no capacity existed to build warships.
This is a rank falsehood, and you're better than resorting to that. I said "speed up" not "build" and made an explicit reference to ships that are on the ways, i.e. under construction.
The military had in general not been in a period of growth but this doesn't imply no production - quite the contrary, in fact. Since old hulls are retired or retasked, or replaced by more modern upgrades, production had to remain active just to keep the fleet static (or even shrinking slightly). There was industry already tasked to building warships as well as ships nearing completion. Then you've got ships that were on their way out that just needed some touching up to be useful shooters.
Low-rate production isn't the same thing as rapidly building ships. Someone already mentioned the USN's carrier policy and it's a good analogy, because even if we poured all the resources that it could actually use in to getting the Gerald Ford in the water, it still couldn't be completed for another two or three years. There is no pressing need to replace ship hulls for the UEF prior to the war, and no need to build rapidly, so they're not set up to do so. Despite constant replacement the life of a warship hull in the relatively gentle environment of space can easily be measured for thirty years or more with refitting. So they build slowly and take their time now to save on maintenance and refitting later.
The UEF does not have the spare economic wherewithal at the start to dump directly into accelerating production, and they have no reason to build rapidly. We'll be extremely generous and say new Karuna hulls are normally turned out at the rate of one a year; this means they've at best completed the one in build and probably one other by now, with work far along on a third. That's nowhere near enough to replace losses without resorting to whatever war reserves they have. A more reasonable two-year timeline for Karunas/Narayanas in peacetime means that they would have spent about three months just finding and diverting resources and maybe got the total timeline for new hulls down to a year, so only one new hull is in service and a second is being worked on. Anything more would require building new facilities, since again, no reason to have vast shipyards for frigate hulls sitting around when you only turn out a new one every year or two if that, and that's going to add four to six months to any new hulls that those facilities build.
The Sanctus hulls are probably better off since they're much smaller, and closer to the commercial-sized craft seen in WiH, so more yards can build them.
So all in all, counting ship hulls that existed when the 14th arrived, the UEF hasn't actually managed to build a totally new hull since the war started. All of them already existed most likely. They just weren't necessarily in service yet.
Again, given the numbers cited above you don't need large stocks of warships in mothballs; given that the total frigate strength in the entire navy at the beginning of R1 is something on the order of 40 hulls, just two or three frigates in mothballs per fleet (which is very conservative given UEF policy; mothballing a spacecraft is pretty easy) would have added sizably to their forces and can practically account for all the wartime additions alone!
I'll buy that they're running off stocks. I've already said that.
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Low-rate production isn't the same thing as rapidly building ships. Someone already mentioned the USN's carrier policy and it's a good analogy, because even if we poured all the resources that it could actually use in to getting the Gerald Ford in the water, it still couldn't be completed for another two or three years. There is no pressing need to replace ship hulls for the UEF prior to the war, and no need to build rapidly, so they're not set up to do so. Despite constant replacement the life of a warship hull in the relatively gentle environment of space can easily be measured for thirty years or more with refitting. So they build slowly and take their time now to save on maintenance and refitting later.
You know what? I bet we could given the economic drive. I bet that we could probably convert several civilian shipyards to make carriers as well. I bet we did something similar in WWII and I bet that the UEF did something similar at the onset of the war.
Remember, when the war started, the UEF had an economy nearly the size of the entire GT part of the GTVA. With more of those resources pressed into a war machine, I have no doubt that at least some fleet assets were produced over the course of 18 months, even with the sudden dip in logistical support at the dawn of WiH
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This is a rank falsehood, and you're better than resorting to that. I said "speed up" not "build" and made an explicit reference to ships that are on the ways, i.e. under construction.
And if you said 'speed up' not 'build', and the ships already scheduled to come out during these 18 months even without any notional acceleration are enough to make up for a significant fraction of losses, where's the argument?
Are you or are you not disputing that the UEF has the ability to get a few frigates and a gaggle of cruisers out to replace some of its losses? Or is this just another manufactured argument?
Given that you've accepted the scenario you originally disputed, namely that ships lost in the war were replaced by ships produced - whether brand spanking new or refurbished - I'll move on to correct a few misconceptions.
So they build slowly and take their time now to save on maintenance and refitting later.
You have no idea if this is true; it's backseat worldbuilding. I mentioned earlier that ships are easy to store, we're in agreement on that, but the fleet was clearly undergoing a pretty major transition; they might well have been in the middle of a building spree. See the last paragraph for why that might even be the most likely case.
The UEF does not have the spare economic wherewithal at the start to dump directly into accelerating production.
Same goes. You have no idea whether it has the spare economic wherewithal to do or not do anything. I'm personally inclined to think that military production would take some tooling up, but that the enormous amount of shipbuilding capacity present in Sol would lend itself to some pretty miraculous turnaround on that.
We'll be extremely generous and say new Karuna hulls are normally turned out at the rate of one a year; this means they've at best completed the one in build and probably one other by now, with work far along on a third.
Such strong assumptions from so little information! Baseless. I wouldn't have been so generous with the build times, not at all, but I expect they could easily finish more like three a year because each of the major states has its own shipbuilding capability. It might be closer to six. The Karuna was a rising star in the fleet, a successful design with political backing, and the fleet as a whole was moving in a direction that favored building frigates.
Even with the military in a police role, remember that Sol has an infrastructure to match the entire GTVA. A Karuna is not actually vastly more work than a Deimos, and the GTVA turns those out by the bucketload with far more of its economy devoted to the military. For the entire UEF to manage only one Karuna a year would be require the military to have been cut a lot further than it actually was.
Oh and I forgot the basic math! If there are about 40 Karunas and Narayanas up and running in Sol, and the design has been in production for **** it let's say 20 years, they've got to be managing at least two a year on average, and that distribution's probably skewed heavily. The 1-6 range is just for the sake of argument, my money's still on 3 or so per year.
A more reasonable two-year timeline for Karunas/Narayanas in peacetime means that they would have spent about three months just finding and diverting resources and maybe got the total timeline for new hulls down to a year, so only one new hull is in service and a second is being worked on
Again, from whole cloth. I still think your timelines are way too generous (in peacetime at least) but you have no way of knowing whether any resources at all needed to be diverted, whether there were hulls held near completion, or hulls structurally complete but unequipped, or six hulls in build all scheduled to come out next Tuesday, or sixteen hulls done because the hull is the easy part, they fabricate them from asteroidal material in easy-bake foundries and it's the electronics and systems that are actually expensive.
Anything more would require building new facilities, since again, no reason to have vast shipyards for frigate hulls sitting around when you only turn out a new one every year or two if that, and that's going to add four to six months to any new hulls that those facilities build.
Every Kumari and Arcadia installation has the yard space required to build a frigate; they're hardly short on these alleged 'vast shipyards'. The bigger Faslane installations aren't working on Solarises (at least not that we know of) so they're free as well, whether to build an assload of tiny stuff or a few frigates. Zero-g engineering in particular is favorable here because it scales so well; this notion of a shipyard that can 'only do frigates' just isn't relevant.
The numbers you're using are simultaneously too generous (in my book) and asspulled. We just don't know how fast they can retool, whether any retooling is necessary, how fast they can build a frigate from scratch - engineering in the setting is at the point where major structural repairs happen in days or weeks. You're speaking with great confidence about a topic where we have no confidence at all.
But again, it's all immaterial. The losses in the Fall of Jupiter were shocking, catastrophic even, and yet they were on the order of five to seven frigates. The previous eighteen months of the war in total probably saw frigate losses on par with or not much worse than that, even counting the Renjian and the two/three other frigates lost up front. For the Federation navy to come reasonably close to replacing its losses during those eighteen months it only needs to field four or five frigates. Between pulling ships out of parking orbits and whatever hulls they had in build scheduled to come out - and honestly given the imminent open season on Saturn and the pace of shipping growth, the latter feels more likely - they could easily make those numbers even taking your one-hull production number as gospel truth.
What matters in the end is that the Federation is granted the capability to produce ships - whether from the yard or from mothballs - at a rate that allows them to be killed off at a dramatically satisfying pace across the 18-month pre-R1 period while still preserving the worth of each individual frigate. If canon figures on the Federation's hull production rate ever surface, they'll be designed to support that objective, and because so little information exists there's plenty of wiggle room to work anywhere from one hull a year to three to six. On one extreme we could take your figures; on the other we could suggest that each Federation fleet ordered two additional frigates two years ago in anticipation of a Gef-opposed colonization boom around Saturn and joint patrol duty, and those hulls were conveniently about ready. Or that information from the Elders came down about the results of all those transmissions to Alpha Centauri and they didn't like what they'd heard.
Remember that the Sol system is huge, its civilization is extremely dynamic, growth was still pressing and that even holding the navy steady at some arbitrary civilian/military ship ratio might have required turning out brand new ships at a fair pace.
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The UEF lost the Renjian, one more frigate under the command of Admiral Calder immediately thereafter, four at 1st Neptune, an unknown number at 2nd Neptune, and an unknown number at/during Saturn/Uranus/raiding. At least seven, possibly more, but I'd put a cap at about 10. Between five and seven were lost at Jupiter. That's at least a 50% increase in combat losses among Karuna frigates.
That said, going with Battuta's six per year generous estimate (obviously subject to change to fit better in fiction. Personally, with the amount of people and infrastructure in the Sol system [and given that limit], I'd put it at 3-4 per year for Jupiter after the outbreak of hostilities, one for Mars, and one for Earth. My take on it), that's nine new frigates by the time of Artemis Station.
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I remember readinga message from Byrne to Calder/Netrebka(however that one is spelled) in which he complained about risking their Solaris and that the GTVA has no prpblems replacing destroyed destroyers, while the UEF can't even keep up with frigate and cruiser replacements.
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There was 2 frigates and 4 cruiser losses at 1st Neptune, not 4 frigs.
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four at 1st Neptune
Four!?
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I too, thought it was an understatement. :D
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Sure, because back then, the Oculus and the weak miniature jammer on the current frigates were still in prototype stage, and I think the frigates were still armed with blob turrets instead of Apocalypse launchers so such loss is not an understatement.
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There was 2 frigates and 4 cruiser losses at 1st Neptune, not 4 frigs.
'Scuse me, but this is correct. However, it only makes the losses at Artemis more horrendous (and I'd still put a cap at about 10 lost previously).
@the above: The attempt to take Neptune was a battle, yeah, but it wasn't an enormous engagement. It's not explicitly stated, but I wouldn't be surprised if two frigates and four cruisers was the majority of Neptune's capship defenses.
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a solaris running over an aeolus or two...maybe a deimos
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a solaris running over an aeolus or two...maybe a deimos
Actually that would be pretty cool... :nervous:
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Well it isn't written which FED ships were lost in the list. BUt my point is that despite the technological advance the GTVA seems to have, plus their numerical avantage, Byrne's questionable strategy, GTVA's doom beam, overkill missiles strikes and roflstomping Serkr teams, + the fact that the FED were pacifics, well the FED are doing reasonnably well.
another question though. How many frigate are now fitted with the new upgrade that the Katana tested?
Man that mission was the ****, most GTVA ship will **** their pant if the FED can get enough of those frigates.
Which lead me to another suggestion... most of the ships that the wargods routed should imo be considered as destroyed or requiring long repairs or have their crew unable to fight (mass casualties and radiations). I think the end was crushing and depressing enough, and seing the GTVA ship come back 2 days later would be abit too much.
I'd also like more missions where we pilot a frigate, using the Katana was pretty cool, even though the ergonomy of the weapons could be improved or be explained further.
And could there be a key to target hostiles attacking our wingmen? Too many times by the time i see who asks for help it's too late , and i hate to see my wingmen die.
What else... maybe decrease th dificulty a bit in easy, since AI fighters are still very good at dodging, feels like they try to emulate the dragons sometimes.
Maybe a frigate successfully ramming a TEV capship too
Other than that, I want to thank you for the outstaning job you did, the plot is well done, much better than what a lot of game give me nowaday. The design is also prety good, love the karunas, uriels and kentorois in particular. And well, the intensity, immersion and eye candy is here. It puts pretty much every other spacebattle scene I've seen to shame. SC2 cutscenes can do die. If Volition could somehow publish this game i'd buy it , and give it a 10/10 if I was a reviewer :p
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Thank you!
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And if you said 'speed up' not 'build', and the ships already scheduled to come out during these 18 months even without any notional acceleration are enough to make up for a significant fraction of losses, where's the argument?
Actually, I'm now curious where the war is, since if they've managed to lose frigates at the rate of less than one per month I'm not convinced this qualifies as more than minor skirmishing. As you've generally agreed that each frigate's no more valuable than a Deimos, and the Alliance throws corvettes around like they're nothing, I'm not sure why I should actually care about frigates except for their scarcity.
Are you or are you not disputing that the UEF has the ability to get a few frigates and a gaggle of cruisers out to replace some of its losses? Or is this just another manufactured argument?
Your ad hominem does you no credit, sir. If you really want to have this sort of ****slinging argument, fine, we can do that, but I've tried to treat you respectfully. You apparently have no interest in returning it judging from this and the rest of the post. I genuinely wish to understand and to point out possible problems with what you're saying. You appear to genuinely wish to belittle me.
Given that you've accepted the scenario you originally disputed, namely that ships lost in the war were replaced by ships produced - whether brand spanking new or refurbished - I'll move on to correct a few misconceptions.
I originally disputed that they could build sufficient new ships to replace losses. I still dispute this, and so apparently do you.
You have no idea if this is true; it's backseat worldbuilding. I mentioned earlier that ships are easy to store, we're in agreement on that, but the fleet was clearly undergoing a pretty major transition; they might well have been in the middle of a building spree. See the last paragraph for why that might even be the most likely case.
If the fleet were actually undergoing this "pretty major transition" from some other hull types then why have they not called these ships back to service? If they're not transitioning from another hull type then we're still at the low-rate scenario. Maybe, as I observe below, they're phasing out the Sanctus force?
Same goes. You have no idea whether it has the spare economic wherewithal to do or not do anything. I'm personally inclined to think that military production would take some tooling up, but that the enormous amount of shipbuilding capacity present in Sol would lend itself to some pretty miraculous turnaround on that.
This is false. You have consistently stated that Sol's economy is going strong, as have other team members, as has WiH itself. This means low unemployment, factories are tenanted and working, money is flowing between people rather than being stored up. You cannot have it both ways, unless you don't understand economics.
Such strong assumptions from so little information! Baseless. I wouldn't have been so generous with the build times, not at all, but I expect they could easily finish more like three a year because each of the major states has its own shipbuilding capability. It might be closer to six. The Karuna was a rising star in the fleet, a successful design with political backing, and the fleet as a whole was moving in a direction that favored building frigates.
Possible, but on the other hand that would imply that they had some kind of plan to replace the Sanctus force fairly rapidly, which would be expensive. There aren't very many Sanctus either (approximately 120 or so if I remember the fleet comp thread) so if you're replacing them all with Karuna's you'll end up with fewer unless you expand the budget, and they're supposedly not doing that. A rate as high as six a year doesn't sound sustainable since that'd mean you're decommissioning at least a tenth of the Sanctus force a year, possibly more, and that rapid a transition to a totally new platform instead of a merely upgraded one will leave serious cracks in the institution.
Even with the military in a police role, remember that Sol has an infrastructure to match the entire GTVA. A Karuna is not actually vastly more work than a Deimos, and the GTVA turns those out by the bucketload with far more of its economy devoted to the military. For the entire UEF to manage only one Karuna a year would be require the military to have been cut a lot further than it actually was.
You keep going on about infrastructure, but you're missing the point: infrastructure buys you nothing. Factory space buys you everything, including the ability to build more factories. And factory space is already committed if their economy is going strong. It will take time to retask it and for that to take effect. The last time somebody poured all their resources into naval construction like this it took four years to show.
Oh and I forgot the basic math! If there are about 40 Karunas and Narayanas up and running in Sol, and the design has been in production for **** it let's say 20 years, they've got to be managing at least two a year on average, and that distribution's probably skewed heavily. The 1-6 range is just for the sake of argument, my money's still on 3 or so per year.
Now this is a solid argument.
Again, from whole cloth. I still think your timelines are way too generous (in peacetime at least) but you have no way of knowing whether any resources at all needed to be diverted, whether there were hulls held near completion, or hulls structurally complete but unequipped, or six hulls in build all scheduled to come out next Tuesday, or sixteen hulls done because the hull is the easy part, they fabricate them from asteroidal material in easy-bake foundries and it's the electronics and systems that are actually expensive.
I do have to make assumptions. On the other hand, they don't have to be baseless. I can consider the real world and then say "chop off x" for technological advancement. (Hence why you think mine generous; I'm assuming they have machines to do the work that significantly work faster than people.) Far and away the most time-consuming part of constructing a ship was and still is the hull, because it simply occupies the most raw space and consumes the most materials. There's no reason for that basic logic to change, particularly when speaking of hulls that can withstand nuclear and antimatter blasts.
Every Kumari and Arcadia installation has the yard space required to build a frigate; they're hardly short on these alleged 'vast shipyards'. The bigger Faslane installations aren't working on Solarises (at least not that we know of) so they're free as well, whether to build an assload of tiny stuff or a few frigates. Zero-g engineering in particular is favorable here because it scales so well; this notion of a shipyard that can 'only do frigates' just isn't relevant.
This is also a solid argument, but given the stated rush to Saturn most of these would already be tasked to build civilian shipping. Military craft have drastically different requirements and will require some significant retooling, unless you're arguing that naval architecture has regressed to pre-1700s and warships are no longer significantly different from civilian ships. Given their greater size and durability, that would seem very unlikely.
The numbers you're using are simultaneously too generous (in my book) and asspulled. We just don't know how fast they can retool, whether any retooling is necessary, how fast they can build a frigate from scratch - engineering in the setting is at the point where major structural repairs happen in days or weeks. You're speaking with great confidence about a topic where we have no confidence at all.
You're assuming things about my speech again. You should really stop.
You're also making assumptions which don't follow. Simply compare civilian craft and military craft in WiH. A Karuna is vastly more durable and much larger than most transports or freighters, so clearly military ships are built to very different standards. Retooling is necessary. Are you arguing that the railguns which are UEF ship's main weapons do not carry serious implications structurally to the ship that has to carry them? You can just use any old cargo hold as a magazine and the rounds magically get to the gun? Come now, you're not that naive. Warships are very different creatures from civilian ships.
You've made repeated statements about the Sol economy being strong, which carries certain implications about the general state of factories and employment and shipbuilding. I've built on that knowledge, and the knowledge of major shipbuilding initiatives in reality and how they worked.
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can you two move your disagreement to a new thread please, you've kind of gone off topic.
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And if you said 'speed up' not 'build', and the ships already scheduled to come out during these 18 months even without any notional acceleration are enough to make up for a significant fraction of losses, where's the argument?
Actually, I'm now curious where the war is, since if they've managed to lose frigates at the rate of less than one per month I'm not convinced this qualifies as more than minor skirmishing. As you've generally agreed that each frigate's no more valuable than a Deimos, and the Alliance throws corvettes around like they're nothing, I'm not sure why I should actually care about frigates except for their scarcity.
What, heck no. It's made clear in the campaigns these guys are way more valuable than a Deimos. Two Deimos are still probably worth less than a Karuna - and heck the early-war Deimos probably couldn't even have matched Karunas at 2:1 ratios until they started slapping new armor systems and turret shielding onto them. Bleeding a frigate a month, maybe more, maybe less, plus cruiser losses means losing extraordinarily valuable warships and thousands of crew who are in general talented enough not to jump their ships into the middle of a carrier battle group; it's something the UEF, with its relatively shallow trained personnel reserves, can't afford. The very fact that the Alliance throws its corvettes around like they're nothing is explicitly commented on as a marker of a huge difference in the way the UEF and the GTVA treat their forces - the GTVA is more inured to losses and is institutionally and strategically prepared to absorb them.
A frigate a month is pretty bad given how utterly conservative the UEF began to play things after the shock of losing Neptune. The GTVA was in strategic disarray and fighting an uphill battle, especially given the bruising its fighter corps took; the first 18 months of the war were hell for the Alliance because the UEF had so much depth and was able to be so careful in its deployments. The GTVA spent a lot of that time just cutting away the underbrush of the UEF's all-pervasive tracking net; it's easy to avoid losing frigates when you know just where the enemy is deploying and you can skedaddle. (Not to mention the issue of even getting to the frigates with the UEF's low-span high-intensity fighter corps giving you such a shockingly hard time.)
Every time a Karuna went down it was a major blow to the UEF and a major boost to the GTVA; proof that this was not the proverbial quagmire.
Are you or are you not disputing that the UEF has the ability to get a few frigates and a gaggle of cruisers out to replace some of its losses? Or is this just another manufactured argument?
Your ad hominem does you no credit, sir. If you really want to have this sort of ****slinging argument, fine, we can do that, but I've tried to treat you respectfully. You apparently have no interest in returning it judging from this and the rest of the post. I genuinely wish to understand and to point out possible problems with what you're saying. You appear to genuinely wish to belittle me.
Not so, but I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I appreciate your politeness, though.
Given that you've accepted the scenario you originally disputed, namely that ships lost in the war were replaced by ships produced - whether brand spanking new or refurbished - I'll move on to correct a few misconceptions.
I originally disputed that they could build sufficient new ships to replace losses. I still dispute this, and so apparently do you.
The exact wording was that there were losses which were replaced by wartime production. This is a pretty imprecise way of putting things, but it was a casual comment; it does not mean the rigorous 'ALL losses were FULLY replaced SOLELY by new hulls' which I think is what you're disputing.
You have no idea if this is true; it's backseat worldbuilding. I mentioned earlier that ships are easy to store, we're in agreement on that, but the fleet was clearly undergoing a pretty major transition; they might well have been in the middle of a building spree. See the last paragraph for why that might even be the most likely case.
If the fleet were actually undergoing this "pretty major transition" from some other hull types then why have they not called these ships back to service? If they're not transitioning from another hull type then we're still at the low-rate scenario. Maybe, as I observe below, they're phasing out the Sanctus force?
The Federation military has never been funded in proportion with the overall wealth of the Federation - the major transition could simply be adding more of the ships they think work in an effort to keep up with the boom. A major transition doesn't necessarily mean a transition from hull types; it could be a transition up into a more active role strategically, or in preparation for recontact. Even if it is a transition in major hull types, the old hulls could be useless; if they're Great War era ships they almost certainly are. Or, they were already scrapped before any replacements were available - policy that would probably draw as much argument from you as from some in the setting, but which is still very believable.
Same goes. You have no idea whether it has the spare economic wherewithal to do or not do anything. I'm personally inclined to think that military production would take some tooling up, but that the enormous amount of shipbuilding capacity present in Sol would lend itself to some pretty miraculous turnaround on that.
This is false. You have consistently stated that Sol's economy is going strong, as have other team members, as has WiH itself. This means low unemployment, factories are tenanted and working, money is flowing between people rather than being stored up. You cannot have it both ways, unless you don't understand economics.
Where does what you say in the paragraph here contradict what was said in the paragraph quoted? Industry breeds industry, and especially with such excellent materials and manufacture technique, there's no reason a yard already full up on one type of order couldn't immediately drop what it was doing and handle reworking, or even components of a brand new hull. You can get a lot done with distributed manufacture.
The economy is not just strong but growing, and growth implies readiness to exploit new options, both at the strategic level and in terms of the base technology involved in constructing spacecraft. Low unemployment, a skilled labor force, tenanted factories, high technology and flowing money imply an agile industrial base, and the great advantage of the Ubuntu modeling technique is that the forces of the economy aren't unwieldy; you can drop an incentives package or pull some strings and almost immediately move liquidity where it needs to be.
And even so this isn't necessary; even producing three new frigate hulls which wouldn't require any additional mobilization at all, which makes that whole line of argument interesting but unessential.
Such strong assumptions from so little information! Baseless. I wouldn't have been so generous with the build times, not at all, but I expect they could easily finish more like three a year because each of the major states has its own shipbuilding capability. It might be closer to six. The Karuna was a rising star in the fleet, a successful design with political backing, and the fleet as a whole was moving in a direction that favored building frigates.
Possible, but on the other hand that would imply that they had some kind of plan to replace the Sanctus force fairly rapidly, which would be expensive. There aren't very many Sanctus either (approximately 120 or so if I remember the fleet comp thread) so if you're replacing them all with Karuna's you'll end up with fewer unless you expand the budget, and they're supposedly not doing that. A rate as high as six a year doesn't sound sustainable since that'd mean you're decommissioning at least a tenth of the Sanctus force a year, possibly more, and that rapid a transition to a totally new platform instead of a merely upgraded one will leave serious cracks in the institution.[/quote]
There seems to be an assumption here that the navy is maintaining a static footprint, but the navy could be adding ships overall, not decommissioning at a significant rate whatsoever, and still shrinking compared to the overall merchant force or the space required to coverage. There's also the possibility that assets are being moved from planetside bases to frigates. For that reason I don't think this idea of replacing the Sanctus force is at work here. The imminent move on the Saturn territory as a site for major colonization seems much more likely as a driver of additional frigate orders.
Even with the military in a police role, remember that Sol has an infrastructure to match the entire GTVA. A Karuna is not actually vastly more work than a Deimos, and the GTVA turns those out by the bucketload with far more of its economy devoted to the military. For the entire UEF to manage only one Karuna a year would be require the military to have been cut a lot further than it actually was.
You keep going on about infrastructure, but you're missing the point: infrastructure buys you nothing. Factory space buys you everything, including the ability to build more factories. And factory space is already committed if their economy is going strong. It will take time to retask it and for that to take effect. The last time somebody poured all their resources into naval construction like this it took four years to show.
Infrastructure buys you everything, including more ships 'Factories or yards as centralized points of manufacture aren't solely and singularly meaningful here; they're just an element of a whole reaction chain, including skilled zero-g labor, robotics, supplies of raw material from asteroid corrals and tugs, navigation. Factories don't have to make new factories, or even the parts involved; specialized workshops can do that, which means no retasking required.
Moreover, that comment about committed factory space, retasking and taking effect, seems to be missing the point I was making here, which I'll restate: for the entire Federation to manage only one Karuna per year even before the outbreak of war would require the military to have been cut even further than it actually was before contact was reestablished. No notional retasking is even involved.
Again, I'm not sure what you're arguing here; we've established already that it's perfectly plausible they had enough ships already in build to make up for a fair fraction of their losses.
Oh and I forgot the basic math! If there are about 40 Karunas and Narayanas up and running in Sol, and the design has been in production for **** it let's say 20 years, they've got to be managing at least two a year on average, and that distribution's probably skewed heavily. The 1-6 range is just for the sake of argument, my money's still on 3 or so per year.
Now this is a solid argument.
Thank you, I appreciate it.
Every Kumari and Arcadia installation has the yard space required to build a frigate; they're hardly short on these alleged 'vast shipyards'. The bigger Faslane installations aren't working on Solarises (at least not that we know of) so they're free as well, whether to build an assload of tiny stuff or a few frigates. Zero-g engineering in particular is favorable here because it scales so well; this notion of a shipyard that can 'only do frigates' just isn't relevant.
This is also a solid argument, but given the stated rush to Saturn most of these would already be tasked to build civilian shipping. Military craft have drastically different requirements and will require some significant retooling, unless you're arguing that naval architecture has regressed to pre-1700s and warships are no longer significantly different from civilian ships. Given their greater size and durability, that would seem very unlikely.
I think your first sentence contradicts your second; given the stated rush to Saturn and the corresponding need for extended military projection, doesn't it seem reasonable that most of these military shipyards, prepared to handle the drastically different requirements of military ships, would be handling the pressing need for more military ships?
The numbers you're using are simultaneously too generous (in my book) and asspulled. We just don't know how fast they can retool, whether any retooling is necessary, how fast they can build a frigate from scratch - engineering in the setting is at the point where major structural repairs happen in days or weeks. You're speaking with great confidence about a topic where we have no confidence at all.
You're assuming things about my speech again. You should really stop.
Fair enough.
You're also making assumptions which don't follow. Simply compare civilian craft and military craft in WiH. A Karuna is vastly more durable and much larger than most transports or freighters, so clearly military ships are built to very different standards. Retooling is necessary. Are you arguing that the railguns which are UEF ship's main weapons do not carry serious implications structurally to the ship that has to carry them? You can just use any old cargo hold as a magazine and the rounds magically get to the gun? Come now, you're not that naive. Warships are very different creatures from civilian ships.
But the notion of retooling is resident itself in a specific techbase where the common yard's equipment is inherently inadequate to meet the requirements of military ships. It's possible, but we have to assume in order to take it as fact - it's also possible that your average Kumari has on hand the foundries and equipment required to make military-grade shipping right in its slips, simply because this standard of gear is actually neither rare nor expensive (technology has outpaced its own demands), or because the Federation has made a policy to render all its civilian shipyards military-ready, whether for future manufacturing or because they want their system patrol craft to be able to repair anywhere, any time.
The difference in durability between a freighter and a frigate can be explained by means other than the manufacturing equipment in the yard; it may be more cost-effective to build civilian-grade, but easy to bump up to military-grade rapidly if sufficient funding rolls in, or if stocks of whatever refined material are released, or if the simple formulae required to build at military levels are declassified (or just distributed through secure channels, whereas formerly they were restricted to only the yards working to meet the fairly low* military demand). Even given that warships are very different creatures, we can't assume that the means of production are very different - the limiting factors in warship production may be demand, or other elements of the logistical chain not located at the yard but also not subject to rapid latencies.
If this is true, all the yards have to do to start work on a frigate hull is eject whatever they were working on, accept that Nautilus-load of material that just jumped in twenty minutes ago after the market lit up with emergency secure shipping contracts, find bunks for the military team moving in to help with the proprietary classified elements of the forges, and get to work.
I'd make an analogy to Homeworld - the phased disassembler arrays there could build any ship to its required specifications, but if there was no demand for all ion cannon frigates, all the time, said arrays wouldn't necessarily produce resource collectors with warship-grade armor just because they could; they'd build collectors with collector-grade armor because it was cheaper, and faster, and that kind of armor worked for the design.
(Federation fighters have always been fluffed as being somewhat cantankerous and hard to build, coming from specialized places - but the warships on the other hand have always been noted for being very logistics-friendly and sustainable.)
You've made repeated statements about the Sol economy being strong, which carries certain implications about the general state of factories and employment and shipbuilding. I've built on that knowledge, and the knowledge of major shipbuilding initiatives in reality and how they worked.
But I think both of our lines of argument lead to the same place. In a scenario where most of the loss replacements come out of mothballs, or from ships already in build we don't even have an argument. In a scenario where most of the replacements come from scratch - which isn't even necessary! - you say that the factories are busy, they'd take time to retool for warships, and that the latencies would therefore be very high.
But if the warship production capability already exists, organically, in every yard, or even in a majority of yards, and also in the component suppliers for the yards, and if the expertise also exists along with stockpiles of the material required for warships, you have a much more agile system. You just need to vacate whatever you're working on, reprogram your drones with the new Fleet stuff, accept the raw materials if you're a component supplier or the components if you're a shipyard, and get to work. When your yards are all built to high standard, because that standard is both efficient and economical at producing large amounts of civilian shipping and capable of tackling smaller amounts of military shipping, and when your workforce and expertise are largely robotic, retooling just isn't as much of a challenge.
The very fact that so many shipyards were targeted during the Earth Blitz is evidence of this. The GTVA wants that infrastructure. It arguably needs it. It would not blow it up if there weren't reason to think it could make a significant contribution to the war effort during the time of the actual war. Granted, a lot of that was probably contributions to the all-important merchant marine, but part of the reason the merchant marine is such a fearsome strategic force is because it enables the Federation's high-ceilinged, highly agile infrastructure - which, I'd contend, does buy you something.
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Fair enough. I bow to most of your logic, sir. :P
However I would point out that traditionally at least, the countries that have pulled off an economic miracle were coming out of a depression; the US and Russia in WW2 are the obvious examples, whereas Japan and Germany, who had already recovered from the Depression, couldn't match the expansion of their enemies because they were tapped out at the start of the war. Sol is similarly tapped out, particularly now that the existing expansion portion of their economy around Saturn is occupied.
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The United States actually had a huge economy by the time it entered WWII, bigger than Japan and Germany combined IIRC
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The United States actually had a huge economy by the time it entered WWII, bigger than Japan and Germany combined IIRC
And still had more than 40% of its factory space out of use.
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I thought WW2-era US always had a larger economy than anywhere else, even before the war began.
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It did.
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However I would point out that traditionally at least, the countries that have pulled off an economic miracle were coming out of a depression; the US and Russia in WW2 are the obvious examples, whereas Japan and Germany, who had already recovered from the Depression, couldn't match the expansion of their enemies because they were tapped out at the start of the war. Sol is similarly tapped out, particularly now that the existing expansion portion of their economy around Saturn is occupied.
I think that's a different story. I could be wrong but I think themain problem was the lack of resources. Japan couldn't produce much iron/steel by themselves, that's why the invaded China. So in the end, they were unable to make enough weapons or ammo without such supply. Had they possessed enough ressources, they probably could have replaced their losses, especially if you consider that the could mobilize the whole population with their fanaticism.
Germany lacked oil i think, so they tied to secure North Africa and the Caucasus (not that sure at this point) + they were at war with the US and USSR, and produced tanks that were better but harder to replace, pilot ad maintain. The USSR had the T34 that they could mass produce, they could replace the tanks and their crews fairly quickly. Plus if you're pushing back the enemy, that means you have access to the destroyed tanks and can repair those.
The red army could lose 1000 tanks and have 800 of them back in the fight in a week.
Posted by: General Battuta
« on: February 04, 2011, 03:38:26 pm »
Thank you!
NO U! :) You earned those praise well.
Is any of my ideas possible though?
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Fair enough. I bow to most of your logic, sir. :P
You were right to tell me to be a bit less acerbic, and I appreciate it. It was a good discussion.
gfgfgfgfgfgf
However I would point out that traditionally at least, the countries that have pulled off an economic miracle were coming out of a depression; the US and Russia in WW2 are the obvious examples, whereas Japan and Germany, who had already recovered from the Depression, couldn't match the expansion of their enemies because they were tapped out at the start of the war. Sol is similarly tapped out, particularly now that the existing expansion portion of their economy around Saturn is occupied.
This is quite true. But you could envision Sol as still coming out of a depression, just on a really long scale. There's just so much space, so many asteroids, so many orbital slots, so much room for population growth - when things started going right mid-Isolation they might have kept going right, and still be going right.
It'd be interesting to take a look like this at the GTVA side of things. Their own military production is pretty heroic in its own way.
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I'm pretty sleepy; but a quick 2c:I can see industrial capacity increasing through: 1) utilizing unused capacity; 2) transfer from civilian production to military production; 3) actual economic growth (in the GDP=productivity x workers x hours x population sense; but there's limits on how much population you have and productivity doesn't grow fast enough in 18 months). And no, these aren't mutually exclusive.
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What about backround informations concerning Steeles gamble at Saturn?
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Make your save games carry over so things like how you handled Mission 6 or the way you treated Conrad Verner impact the later campaign :D
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Make your save games carry over so things like how you handled Mission 6 or the way you treated Conrad Verner impact the later campaign :D
Oh man I wish. :( If there were some way to carry PPVs between campaigns...
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Best place for getting funny ideas? The shower^^
What about spacesuit combat?
Simply adding a single gun, vent some suits tzowards an installation and fight against enemy suits on the hull of that installation.
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There was a great spacesuit fight sequence in Vassago's Dirge, I recommend it.
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I just got 3 Atalanta kills in one in The Plunder, because they flew out of the GTL Anemoi class Agincourt as one.
When I look into it I realized the Anemoi class only has one bay path per fighterbay. It might be nice (and comparatively easy) to add multiple paths per bay.
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Ships that carry over to the next missions were common in FS1, though FS2 only did it one or two times. Maybe some mission can be made to accomodate such things.
Also another idea, if it is fine to have a view from mutiple characters that the player is given to control different ships in a single mission, Wings of Dawn did this in 2 missions I think. One idea I could think of is in mission 6, while the player controls Laporte in most of the mission, when the Indus jumps in, the player now control the Indus. Once the corvette is destroyed, then the player is reverted back to Laporte's fighter since the rest of the mission after that is just a playable cutscene.
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Only problem I'd have with that is, "Oh, why is my ship so banged up suddenly? And why am I out of Secondary weapons?!"
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I think they are talking about "if you didn't destroy X in mission 3, it will be in mission 4" kind of situations.
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Best place for getting funny ideas? The shower^^
What about spacesuit combat?
Simply adding a single gun, vent some suits tzowards an installation and fight against enemy suits on the hull of that installation.
the pre-director's cut version of AoA had weapons on one of the spacesuits.
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Maybe it's interesting to give the GTVA capital vs. capital turrets (non-beam) a bit more of an 'oomph', they don't feel like main guns right now. It'd be nice if they actually blast a more irregular, less perfect shot, like an actual cannon (but not as intimidating as UEF weapons).
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The only thing that needs to be done with the pulse cannons to make them look more intimidating is to increase the sprite size I think. The hit effect even seems large for the bolts.
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I am also not sure about the pulse weapon firing sound, it is not that audible, in contrast of the UEF PDS autocannons and gattler turrets which have that scary DAKKA DAKKA sound.
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I am also not sure about the pulse weapon firing sound, it is not that audible, in contrast of the UEF PDS autocannons and gattler turrets which have that scary DAKKA DAKKA sound.
I feel it to be the exact opposite, the PDS and Cavalier sound extremely unintimidating.
Gattler on the other hand, has an aggressive sound.
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I'm wondering if the Vasudans will have any interesting weapons.
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I am also not sure about the pulse weapon firing sound, it is not that audible, in contrast of the UEF PDS autocannons and gattler turrets which have that scary DAKKA DAKKA sound.
I feel it to be the exact opposite, the PDS and Cavalier sound extremely unintimidating.
Gattler on the other hand, has an aggressive sound.
That I have to agree. At least sound wise, the PDS turrets have good sound. They just need to be louder somehow.
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The Zod pulse weapons (looked) kinda anemic as well.
Pulse weapons really are a great replacement for flak, but they should look like it too.
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Despite how stupid it would probably be for the UEF to commit one of their destroyers this way, I would love to see a Solaris duke it out with the Atreus.
On a side note, longtime lurker, first time poster, and I have to say, you guys really out did yourselves with WiH. I was floored my first time through. Keep it up. :yes:
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In the canon at least, Admiral Calder actually did that before (LEEEEROOOOOOY) and the Toutatis get heavy damage as a result, well at least it is safe to assume the Atreus was escorted in similar way as in Artemis Station prologue.
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The Solaris would win. . . by quite a margin.
I could see that happening if the Atreus was mostly disarmed and disabled, but it sounds like a pretty lame way to kill Steele.
On the other hand, I believe Serkr can destroy the Solaris class in one volley. That might be a fast way of losing an admiral + a Solaris, but it would be an impressive one.
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I kind of assumed Steel would have some kind of contingency involving SUDDENLY GTVA FLEET if he actually engaged a Solaris. Somehow I cant see him agreeing to an honorable duel or being jumped by an asset like that. But Meh. Also, I never really checked it out too closely, but doesn't the Atreus have all sorts of upgraded weaponry that kinda nullifies the Solaris' Apoc Spam?
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Well, in every mission it's appeared in, it's just a stock Raynor (with BALLS OF STEELE AI). There's nothing concrete that says that the Atreus is any different than the Orestes, other than a new subspace drive.
That said Serkr appears to just be stock Chimeras and a Bellerophon. And we know for a fact they're supposed to have upgraded weapons and armor.
It is considered a testbed for new technology. My guess is that if the 15th is intended as an anti-Sathanas strikeforce (as is hinted several times) the flagship of the 15th is likely to have something pretty impressive up its sleeve.
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Oh, as for I want in the rest of War in Heaven. . . I want some type of medal for killing all the GEFs in Deals in Shadows.
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Well, I guess that overcharging stock blue beams would lead to interesting results enough to not need any kind of special weaponry. And for the rest of the armament, Pulse turrets are OP enough as-is.
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What I don't get...the Raynor is a ship, capable to fire beams at almost any angle...but infact, the most firepower comes from a HBlue and BBlue situated at the prow...
The Titan, although being a carrier has three prow mounted beams...so theoreticaly a Titan should bring more firepower to bear...
Another point are the turrets...
I associate something like UEF mass driver or gaus cannons with such turrets an not pulse weapons or flak...pretty like the late Iowa class...big long range turrets and beams to finish anything which dares to approach.
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The Raynor's pulse cannons do significantly more DPS than most of the UEF mass driver or gauss cannon types, I believe. Better than some beams too. Remember that they can shoot at fighters and bombers!
Anyway, just ctrl-clicking a Raynor down in FRED won't provide a fair matchup with a Solaris. If that duel ever does happen, you'll get an idea of the Atreus' true power - there'll definitely be armor, turret armor, damage control and a lot of FRED-side electronic warfare and other abilities.
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Uh...guys...I know that I'm not a native english speaker, but that is not a reason for editing my posts...
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Uh...guys...I know that I'm not a native english speaker, but that is not a reason for editing my posts...
Your posts haven't been edited. That retarded smiley just appears every time anyone says "infact" or "alot". I assume it's someone's idea of being funny.
Back on topic, I think it's quite clear a Steele / Calder duel will happen at some point in WiH (and by extension the Toutatis and Atreus will have to be involved).
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Uh...guys...I know that I'm not a native english speaker, but that is not a reason for editing my posts...
The forum does that automatically, nobody's got it in for you.
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Ups, then sorry^^
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The Raynor's pulse cannons do significantly more DPS than most of the UEF mass driver or gauss cannon types, I believe. Better than some beams too. Remember that they can shoot at fighters and bombers!
Yes, but they don't have the huge flag, which means that they will do less damage than your average Mass Driver against things larger than a cruiser.
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Yes, but they don't have the huge flag, which means that they will do less damage than your average Mass Driver against things larger than a cruiser.
Errr... The flag doesn't change damage dealt in any way. It just stops the weapon from killing ships larger than cruisers by ignoring damage done if hull strength is at 10% or lower. The weapon still deals full damage above 10% threshold.
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The Raynor's pulse cannons do significantly more DPS than most of the UEF mass driver or gauss cannon types, I believe. Better than some beams too. Remember that they can shoot at fighters and bombers!
Yes, but they don't have the huge flag, which means that they will do less damage than your average Mass Driver against things larger than a cruiser.
That only kicks in at or below 10%.
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No, or at least not in SCP. There is some logarithm trickery involved. Ask coders.
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Hrm. I had always kind of assumed the TerPulses on the Atreus and Serkr were stupidly up-gunned. Guess AoA didn't really drive home how powerful those guns really were since they were on my side.
Slightly more on topic, are you guys going to include some of WoD2-style Special Items, like boosters or some such. The thought of a Kent with Orky thruster attachments is kinda awesome.
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Hrm. I had always kind of assumed the TerPulses on the Atreus and Serkr were stupidly up-gunned. Guess AoA didn't really drive home how powerful those guns really were since they were on my side.
Slightly more on topic, are you guys going to include some of WoD2-style Special Items, like boosters or some such. The thought of a Kent with Orky thruster attachments is kinda awesome.
Those are actually light pulse cannons on Serkr, which are still bad news but not quite as bad.
And hey now, if you read the post about the special items, what did it say about who designed them?
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And I guess that answers my question. Sweet. :yes:
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Some sort of pearl harbour would be nice...For Example the UEF commiting bombers, gunships and other fighter assets for a daring raid against Steeles staging area.
Blasting the way for some Durgas...
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I like this idea. A triumphant and explosive return to Artemis Station would be cool.
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Not just Durgas for that I think, preferably Vajras and Iz'rails to give them the real "WTH is that" moments.
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I must admit I'm still having extreme difficulty imagining a scenario where the Vajra is any kind of necessary. It seems like one of those overcompensation measures the GTVA uses anytime the Shivans whip out a bigger ship to slap them with. Why the UEF would have developed it is beyond me.
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It was manufactured by "Wartime Special Projects" so I'd assume it's a recent (during the course of the war) design.
It seems the UEF is delving into the very bomber designs the GTVA decided were obsolete.
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Makes sense. Might throw the GTVA for a loop if they're ever deployed. (I seem to recall the techroom stating they haven't been deployed yet, am I right?)
But by that logic, why wouldn't the UEF start developing massive area-denial weapons and just fling them at the node? I'm sure that by this point in the war they've worked out at least some insight into the nature of Meson bombs, since those have been deployed against them before. Why not stick an engine on it and fling it towards the Delta Serpentis node? It's not as though they have any infrastructure there. Granted, I am assuming that the GTVA have some sort of defensive line or blockade set up there to prevent UEF deep strikes.
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They can't know if there are any Vasudans passing through the node at the moment of detonation for one thing.
The other thing is, would it really be worth the cost? If the blockade is ships only, they could just crash jump away and be back a few minutes later.
And even if they wiped out the whole blockade force, what would it really gain them? Losing those ships won't diminish the GTVAs offensive forces in Sol and might make them fight harder and get more public support, maybe even bring the Vasudans into the conflict full force.
Their supply lines might be a bit more vulnerable for a few days, till the GTVA can get new defences in place, but that's pretty mucht it.
I think the UEF has more to lose by such an action than they to gain.
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Good point on the Vasudans. Didn't think about that. As for what they would have to gain, the way I see it, any ships they can bleed off the GTVA is a greater chance they will be forced to end the war by the public back home. And the cost and general unwieldy nature of such a weapon would probably be superseded by the fact that you wouldnt be losing actual ships to this endeavor. And if they got lucky, and knocked out a logistics vessel, or even more implausibly, a Destroyer...
But I digress, as this does not good gameplay make.
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Makes sense. Might throw the GTVA for a loop if they're ever deployed. (I seem to recall the techroom stating they haven't been deployed yet, am I right?)
But by that logic, why wouldn't the UEF start developing massive area-denial weapons and just fling them at the node? I'm sure that by this point in the war they've worked out at least some insight into the nature of Meson bombs, since those have been deployed against them before. Why not stick an engine on it and fling it towards the Delta Serpentis node? It's not as though they have any infrastructure there. Granted, I am assuming that the GTVA have some sort of defensive line or blockade set up there to prevent UEF deep strikes.
My guess is that it's the job of many, many GTVA personnel to make any such assault on the node suicidal for the UEF, any attack of that magnitude would also leave either Mars or Earth comparatively defenseless. Remember, the UEF bombers, the Solaris destroyers, and the Narayana artillery are the main deterrents of the UEF. Those would also be the most useful assets in attacking GTA defenses.
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The idea is that it would exist as a completely automated harrying attack, and If one missile actually did manage to get through, so much the better. UEF Fleet assets would never have to leave their posts. However, as Norbert said, if such an attack did end up working you risk catching parties you don't want in the blast radius. It's essentially subspace nukespam, with all of the imprecise nature of that concept reinforced.
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Well, this is the game universe. A really fast missile is going 500 m /s. Even if we let that go and assumed it's workable, I'm sure meson bombs aren't that cheap, and are probably just as easy to intercept as any other bomb.
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Fair enough. I just enjoy rampant speculation. At this point I figure it's pretty much par for the course that WiH2 will completely blow most of the ideas in this thread out the water anyway.
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We have seen shots of the Toutatis near Jupiter from WiH2, so I suspect Calder might be trying to get his crib back.
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Well, this is the game universe. A really fast missile is going 500 m /s. Even if we let that go and assumed it's workable, I'm sure meson bombs aren't that cheap, and are probably just as easy to intercept as any other bomb.
He actually has a point, but the GTVA is the one with the meson bombs. Actively defending the Sol node, unless they have ships coming through, is counterproductive. The GTVA can simply dump Meson Bombs through the node to stop any UEF attempt to blockade it.
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Hmm... Meson Minefields/rapid response weapons would probably be right up Tev alley. Shock and Awe and all that.
As for the UEF using meson weapons, my idea operated under the assumption that they'd managed to figure out how to reproduce them, seeing as how the GTVA obviously doesn't shy away from using them on Fed targets when necessary, and one of the easiest methods of innovation is seeing someone else do it first.
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If this was that easy, the GTVA would have BFReds on every ship already. Or the UEF would have successfully reverse-engineered the GTVA beam tech, for one.
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Yeah, the GTVA has had access to meson bomb technology for at least 19 years, beam technology for 51, and they have had the Supernova torpedo and the new meson powered beam cannons only recently.
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Well, to be fair, BFReds are (in BP canon) So far in advanced of everybody else that they should effectively not exist. Meson Technology is more (relatively) down to Earth, given the the GTVA appeared to have developed it entirely on their own, which to me means theres probably no reason the UEF cant do so as well, unless they run on some Phlebtonium not available in Sol.
As for beams, who's to say they haven't worked out some method of mimicking beam technology at this point? The problem is that refitting all of your vessels to use said technology is a whole different, and much more difficult and costly, matter entirely. And we already know that Earth's production capability does not allow them to just pop out a new beam-armed super ship, a la Inferno. Your research can be miles ahead of the competition, but if production cant keep up then it's all for naught.
That being said, building a warhead with a delivery system and a detonator is considerably less difficult then building a ship. I'm still probably pushing it here, but I don't feel that any of my points are too far out of the UEF's grasp. Practical applications of a space nuke aside, of course.
Edit: Sorry for the Bold. Mis-click.
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Yeah, the GTVA has had access to meson bomb technology for at least 19 years, beam technology for 51, and they have had the Supernova torpedo and the new meson powered beam cannons only recently.
Wait, they had beam technology 1 year before they encountered the Shivans?
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I'm measuring from the end of WiH 1, not the beginning of AOA
EDIT, as MatthTheGeek pointed out below, the GTVA has has access to beam technology for LESS than 51 years. The Hades rebellion was the first example of beam cannons on a GTVA ship that we know of. That was produced, as we know, while the Great War was still grinding down.
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He said "for at least".
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Which should really be "at most". It's impossible for them to have had access to beam technology for more than 51 years (barring GTI hijinks).
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My point is, getting their hands on a Chimera and its cannons and armor doesn't mean that the UEF will have a well working prototype of either in the near future. It could well be they could produce beams of some sort, but I somehow doubt they'll be rolling out BBlues immediately. The meson reactors might help them producing meson bombs, but they simply haven't had much time to produce the presumably fairly expensive technology.
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Which is probably the case. In any event, it wouldn't really be a satisfying way for a space combat sim to end a campaign. So I guess that ideas out the window. So we should all hope for an epic and thoroughly stupid and suicidal gigantic final battle, just so we can have the joy of flying in it.
BTW, are the optimized UEF models being held until the directors cut for release? I realize this isn't entirely relevant to the thread, but I couldn't find any mention of it anywhere.
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As evidenced by The Blade Itself, I'm pretty sure the UEF have no ****ing clue how a Meson bomb works.
Just that it explodes with a very big boom, and that only after the Tevs were kind enough to tell them that.
You don't go from "UNKNOWN DEVICE" to mass producing weapons based off of it in that time frame, especially if you've only seen them blow up and never actually took one apart yourself.
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We can hardly take the tactical assessment of a random Jovian ship as indication of how far along UEF R&D is, especially as Mars already stated that Earth has its hands on GTVA Meson Reactors, and presumably those ships databases as well.
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Well, let's put it this way - if R&D doesn't keep the people at the front informed about what they're going against, that's kinda retarded.
You can't expect your people to perform well if they have no ****ing clue what they're going up against.
Sometimes, there's no choice, you just really don't know, but not telling your people about the existence of a powerful tactical weapon? That's stupid.
You don't win a war like that.
That's a good way to get steamrolled.
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See, that makes perfect sense, but isn't that EXACTLY what Byrne and the rest of the UEF command structure are doing? They have this ultra secret project, and they wont tell anyone about it, only assuring the men on the frontline that they have a perfectly good reason to immobilize half of the UEF's warfighting capabilities.
Granted, I'm sure that whole thing has nothing to do with what I'm talking about, but It still doesn't seem to be too much of a stretch.
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Telling your frontline troops what you're doing with R&D assets is entirely different than telling your frontline troops what enemy weapons do as a result of dissecting capture assets.
The former is an intelligence liability. The latter is common sense.
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Meh. I need to think my arguments through better. Oh well.
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Though the frigates' warbooks didn't ID the meson device at Simak Station, the captains did. Pretty much immediately, too.
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Goddammit. Why didn't I think of that? So this could potentially reinforce my theory that meson weaponry is deployed in sizable quantities against UEF targets, thereby offering up the second notion that Meson reaserch is being conducted and indeed fast tracked by UEF R&D? ;7 Or am I just being too hopeful that I haven't utterly lost at this debate?
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Entirely too hopeful. :P
Kidding aside, the fact that it isn't in the frigates' warbooks implies that it's NOT widely employed against UEF targets.
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Actually, you know what would be awesome, as either a little side thing or a Techroom entry in Part 2? A sort of Warbook/Analysis of GTVA spaceraft and weaponry from the UEF perspective. I think it would be kind cool to see how the Feds see GTVA tech, and how much they either get wrong or leave out. The War in Heaven Techroom already does this with some of the WiH exclusive GTVA fighters and capships, IIRC, but it's nowhere near as in depth as one would expect as a tactical analysis.
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Well, I wouldn't be surprised, if the Solaris would jump in at any moment in WiH2, blast some GTVA ships with beam weaponry, only to get obliterated by the Atreus using meson anti capital guns...
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The Atreus is already using meson anti-capital guns
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Well, all blue beams are meson-powered IIRC.
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Though the frigates' warbooks didn't ID the meson device at Simak Station, the captains did. Pretty much immediately, too.
They've been reading into the GTVA's history. The Meson Bomb's deployment was never really top secret to begin with.
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Oh my god! Genady! A bomb!
A bomb!
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A bomb! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=tOKt1z1TkvU#t=22s)
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http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Bomb
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I always thought the secret UEF Project was opening a portal to let Shivans into the solar system to fight the GTVA
Including a Gargant
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God I hope not. Mainly because Gargant :wtf:
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Naw they seemed to be trying to tell the Shivans to keep away.
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Actually, the Vasudans who are at first unconcerned with the war, are starting to get worried and they have a feeling that the Shivans are coming sooner or later, probably the content of that whatever encrypted transmission given to Laporte.
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The UEF secret project is probably a transwarp drive. Or something along those lines.
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The UEF secret project is probably a transwarp drive. Or something along those lines.
How useful can something like this be to the Federation?
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The UEF secret project is probably a transwarp drive. Or something along those lines.
How useful can something like this be to the Federation?
Strike behind Tev lines? Or send a delegation to Alpha Centauri (Which is Vasudan, iirc)
Also, @ Darius/Dilmah G: What a shame.
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The UEF secret project is probably a transwarp drive. Or something along those lines.
How useful can something like this be to the Federation?
They can run away
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Somehow I feel that if it includes both Beis and is taking a lot of ships that it's going to be something big, probably involving the Vishnans.
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It is something big, it's probably the UESJ Icanus with a Gauss Cannon#KillsGigas
Okay seriously I do think the big project is like a big ship or a secret portal to another dimension or something I mean what else could it possibly be
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what else could it possibly be
Famous last words.
Seriously though, this is definitely gonna be something more interesting than a superweapon/supership/superportal. BP crew know better than this.
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Snail is just making fun of the overconfident speculation happening here.
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Seriously though, this is definitely gonna be something more interesting than a superweapon/supership/superportal. BP crew know better than this.
I agree. The team has already demonstrated exemplary storytelling ability and have managed to avoid many tired old cliches. I, personally, have no speculation on this secret project, besides it having something to do with Nagari. But I am confident that whatever the team has cooked up will completely throw us for a loop, be totally unexpected, and generally awesome.
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I do hope so
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Snail is just making fun of the overconfident speculation happening here.
I know. I'm just making fun of him making fun.
F33r t3h r3curse.
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Why do they need all those 1st fleet ships away from the real combat zone and out of fleetnet?, unless there's already another unknown combat zone somewhere in Sol.
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Byrne and strategic deterrence sittin' in a tree, K-I-S-S-I-N-G ...
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Incidentally, what were the arguments against ALL GTVA DESTROYERS TO SOL again? I forgot.
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Not necessary to have them there, keeping the peace back home, defense in case of Shivans, that whole thing I believe.
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seriously though how hilarious would it be to have 10 GTVA destroyers in Sol
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Seriously though, this is definitely gonna be something more interesting than a superweapon/supership/superportal. BP crew know better than this.
Having some secret inside information that is most likely out of date, I'd wager that they actually didn't with the first rendition of WiH.
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Incidentally, what were the arguments against ALL GTVA DESTROYERS TO SOL again? I forgot.
We will deploy significant force to the Sol theater, maintaining at least five destroyer groups in-system at all time to effect a quick resolution. In case of another Shivan outbreak, we will not compromise our perimeter or our quick-reaction forces.
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Seriously though, this is definitely gonna be something more interesting than a superweapon/supership/superportal. BP crew know better than this.
Having some secret inside information that is most likely out of date, I'd wager that they actually didn't with the first rendition of WiH.
DO YOU SEE? DO YOU SEE?
Incidentally, what were the arguments against ALL GTVA DESTROYERS TO SOL again? I forgot.
We will deploy significant force to the Sol theater, maintaining at least five destroyer groups in-system at all time to effect a quick resolution. In case of another Shivan outbreak, we will not compromise our perimeter or our quick-reaction forces.
Have the Vasudans do that.
Apart from the obvious arguments (home front, Shivans) I mean.
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seriously though how hilarious would it be to have 10 GTVA destroyers in Sol
Quite Hilarious. You could probably win the war with Fighter assets alone at that point. Could make for a fun "Ultimate Karuna Gauntlet" mission. Nothing but Bombers for AU around. Course, then the Shivans would pick THAT moment to kick in the door and mess up the GTVA core systems.
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Seriously though, this is definitely gonna be something more interesting than a superweapon/supership/superportal. BP crew know better than this.
Having some secret inside information that is most likely out of date, I'd wager that they actually didn't with the first rendition of WiH.
You are wrong. Beta testers never saw anything that would've constituted a spoiler. Beta testers did see plenty of random test crap or stuff left from the alpha.
Absolute discretion is a condition of testing; had you actually seen anything worth hiding you could have just really ruined things. Please don't. This is the second time you've tried to spoil the ending right out in the open, and even though you don't have the information required to do it, it speaks to qualities totally unbecoming of the job you were asked to do.
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God I hope not. Mainly because Gargant :wtf:
There better be a Gargant or I'm going to be pissed off :(
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God I hope not. Mainly because Gargant :wtf:
There better be a Gargant or I'm going to be pissed off :(
Upload the HTL model and we'll take a look at including it.
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You liek big stuff. Compensating for something ?
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I wouldn't mind an explanation on how exactly they are hiding this earth's secret project on such a small portion of space. Considering the GTVA already has control of jupiter reducing the number of planets where this facility could be located.
Was it an orbital installation ? a secret underground facility on mercury/venus? It just seems any facility worth sacrificing the whole space production capability of earth would be heavily defended and thus attract attention. GTVA does have stealth recon spacecraft after all.
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I figured they were using some mobile vessel or vessels similar to the way the GTVA employs their Logistics ships. It took the UEF having an inside contact to find one of those, and they knew they existed. As far as we know, the GTVA has no idea that the Bei's project exists, much less where it's installations and ships might be.
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Absolute discretion is a condition of testing; had you actually seen anything worth hiding you could have just really ruined things. Please don't. This is the second time you've tried to spoil the ending right out in the open, and even though you don't have the information required to do it, it speaks to qualities totally unbecoming of the job you were asked to do.
Considering your recent behaviors as a moderator, you are in no position to speak of "absolute conditions" of the job.
More to the point, I am also operating off and speaking of things that I know are not true and you should as well. I am revealing information that is months old and totally incorrect; the incorrectness of this information was asked of and affirmed back when I was still testing no less! The only value this information has to anyone is as a historical footnote. It is also so vague and inspecific as to be useless. A "supership/superweapon/superportal" could mean damn near anything and at this level of vagueness will make people curious about what happens. My commentary on Snail's comment says absolutely nothing of a spoiling nature. It's literally as vague as his is, and must be because it's agreement with him.
So kindly shut the **** up, I'm not revealing your secrets and I'm not trying to.
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Whoa, whoa, hang on. Small portion of space?
Space is huge! Sol (like any star system) is gigantic! In the BPverse, the big method of detection is subspace transits. Now, hiding anything in space can be tricky, because generally there is no 'cover' or real means of concealment - but there are ways.
Absolute discretion is a condition of testing; had you actually seen anything worth hiding you could have just really ruined things. Please don't. This is the second time you've tried to spoil the ending right out in the open, and even though you don't have the information required to do it, it speaks to qualities totally unbecoming of the job you were asked to do.
Considering your recent behaviors as a moderator, you are in no position to speak of "absolute conditions" of the job.
More to the point, I am also operating off and speaking of things that I know are not true and you should as well. I am revealing information that is months old and totally incorrect; the incorrectness of this information was asked of and affirmed back when I was still testing no less! The only value this information has to anyone is as a historical footnote. It is also so vague and inspecific as to be useless. A "supership/superweapon/superportal" could mean damn near anything and at this level of vagueness will make people curious about what happens. My commentary on Snail's comment says absolutely nothing of a spoiling nature. It's literally as vague as his is, and must be because it's agreement with him.
So kindly shut the **** up, I'm not revealing your secrets and I'm not trying to.
That's funny, I think my moderation's been excellent and quite in the proud tradition of HLP's best.
Just abide by a simple rule: don't talk about anything that might even be vaguely related to anything you've seen that has not been released to the public. What you said could've done some real damage if we hadn't been more careful. Disconfirmation is as serious as confirmation, and when your judgment on the matter falters you'll have to bow to ours.
Judging by the strength of your reaction I'm guessing the point got across. Any further comments from you on this line of conversation will be removed; you simply shouldn't be discussing it. You were trusted, please don't betray that trust.
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Whoa, whoa, hang on. Small portion of space?
Space is huge! Sol (like any star system) is gigantic! In the BPverse, the big method of detection is subspace transits. Now, hiding anything in space can be tricky, because generally there is no 'cover' or real means of concealment - but there are ways.
Actually, that raises a question I've had for a while. It was never really touched on in stock FS, but the BPverse has tried to stay (relatively) hard as Sci-fi goes, so I'm guessing that means you cant park a ship in a system and do Star Trek style Deep Scans and suddenly learn where every celestial body in the System is? Planets are one thing, but mapping asteroids and space stations is another matter entirely, so If they dont have magic awesome space scanners then I see no problem with them stashing a research station of some type wherever they needed to. Heck, it could even be behind GTVA "lines" at this point.
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Would you even need to hide where you're doing research?
Any scan can tell an installation's there but how exactly are you going to differentiate between a Kumari being used as a civilian station, a mini-shipyard, or as a research station?
Do you really need to hide?
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This message will be reposted every time it is removed. The point did not get across. I did you the courtesy of a response at length because I was responded to at length. Otherwise you would simply get an "lolstfu".
Absolute discretion is not a condition of testing. You know this. You've operated in this knowledge by it rooting for people like Axem and Spoon before the release of their campaigns. Don't feed me a line you're not willing to toe yourself.
I was agreeing with general sentiments expressed in the thread, i.e. you know better than this, by saying that things had changed. If you actually went down that route, it would come as a greater shock now. If you did not go down that route, no one would be surprised anyways. Come now, you've actually made the problem several orders of magnitude worse by failing to consider the ramifications before slamming out an "ohnoezbetrayal" reply.
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Would you even need to hide where you're doing research?
Any scan can tell an installation's there but how exactly are you going to differentiate between a Kumari being used as a civilian station, a mini-shipyard, or as a research station?
Do you really need to hide?
If said research is on the level of clearance that we're discussing, then yes, I believe so. A normal research station, even a military one, would have no reason to hide itself, but we're talking about something that involves Fedaration Black Ops/Boogeymen and has eaten a good chunk of one of the most powerful military detachments in the Sol System. I think it's safe to say that Byrne and the Bei's dont want anyone finding out what this is, whatsoever, until they're good and ready. And if you hide said station out in the open, you may be difficult to pick out at first, but eventually some random patrol or recon unit will wander by, keeping tabs, get a closer look, and boom. There goes your secret.
TL:DR, if it's this important, and they were actually capable of truly hiding it, why the hell wouldn't they?
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. . .
. . . Does this mean that there's a beta testing position open?
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You're backtracking now; you hadn't thought of any of that when you made the post in contention because you talked about 'the BP team' and yet you're now (correctly) stating you knew the content came from before the great restart, when there was no BP team. You can't have it both ways.
Allow me to quote:
Seriously though, this is definitely gonna be something more interesting than a superweapon/supership/superportal. BP crew know better than this.
Having some secret inside information that is most likely out of date, I'd wager that they actually didn't with the first rendition of WiH
You expressed doubt that your material was certainly out of date, and then supplied acknowledged inside information about an element of the ending of the story in the knowledge that it might not be out of date - very specific information. Had you been wrong about any of your uncertainties you could've done some serious narrative damage.
As a compromise I'll hold your posts in moderation until I'm sure you're not going to divulge any more material, correct or incorrect. And you clearly know the difference between PR for Axem and Spoon and what you're doing here, please don't try to pretend otherwise.
Do not, under any circumstances, discuss any content available only to testers, even if it had nothing to do with the story. Just don't do it.
Post updated.
He keeps posting in spite of the clear warning and firewalled users doesn't seem to work. :blah: Going to have to contact an admin.
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TL:DR, if it's this important, and they were actually capable of truly hiding it, why the hell wouldn't they?
I question the actual ability of "truly hiding it".
There Is No Stealth In Space.
They best way of hiding is blending with civilian traffic.
Basically ECM works the same way, you spam ECM when you don't care that people know somethings there, but you don't want them to know what is there.
Then again, Stealth Fighters >.> Still, they're tiny in comparsion to the STEALTH INSTALLATION you're proposing.
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A subspace did it!
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God I hope not. Mainly because Gargant :wtf:
There better be a Gargant or I'm going to be pissed off :(
Upload the HTL model and we'll take a look at including it.
I don't have it, I think only the Inferno project people have it. Even if the only model is a non-detailed one, you could still get away with having it very far off in the distance.
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God I hope not. Mainly because Gargant :wtf:
There better be a Gargant or I'm going to be pissed off :(
Upload the HTL model and we'll take a look at including it.
I don't have it, I think only the Inferno project people have it. Even if the only model is a non-detailed one, you could still get away with having it very far off in the distance.
What if we just resize a Rakshasa, and make it really huge, and put that in the distance?
edit: and label it Gargant?
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Subspace magic invoked.
Droid803 concedes.
gg.
/me has left the Game.
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I question the actual ability of "truly hiding it".
There Is No Stealth In Space.
They best way of hiding is blending with civilian traffic.
Basically ECM works the same way, you spam ECM when you don't care that people know somethings there, but you don't want them to know what is there.
Granted, this is only me responding to someone else's theory, since I'm actually a proponent of them using mobile assets like ships in exactly the manner you describe for this project. But I like this discussion.
The problem we face with the concept of "No Stealth in Space," no matter how true it may be, is that according to the Pegasus, Freespace Physics means you can have stealth. While in FS2, they were simply un-targetable, in WiH A wing Of Pegasus stealth fighters were, somehow, completely in invisible to radar. Even after they opened fire they weren't actually showing up, IIRC, though I know for a fact that the direction of space they come from registers no contacts, not even the random "unknown" blips, until they open fire. Going by that, it seems like you can completely stealth an object, at the very least from the sensors of a fighter. And it seems like it would be easier to Mask the reading of a station hidden away somewhere, say the inner two worlds, seeing as how you wont have to worry about constant engine emissions, nevermind the distance most things scanning for it would be operating at.
Edit: Damn it. Took to long. Why have you stolen my debate, HLP? :mad:
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God I hope not. Mainly because Gargant :wtf:
There better be a Gargant or I'm going to be pissed off :(
Upload the HTL model and we'll take a look at including it.
I don't have it, I think only the Inferno project people have it. Even if the only model is a non-detailed one, you could still get away with having it very far off in the distance.
What if we just resize a Rakshasa, and make it really huge, and put that in the distance?
edit: and label it Gargant?
Because I want to see the real Gargant
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God I hope not. Mainly because Gargant :wtf:
There better be a Gargant or I'm going to be pissed off :(
Upload the HTL model and we'll take a look at including it.
I don't have it, I think only the Inferno project people have it. Even if the only model is a non-detailed one, you could still get away with having it very far off in the distance.
What if we just resize a Rakshasa, and make it really huge, and put that in the distance?
edit: and label it Gargant?
Because I want to see the real Gargant
If the old Gargant is available for you to download at any time, and the new Gargant is private to the Inferno team, how are we supposed to do that?
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I thought oversizing a Rakshasa gave you the new Gigas anyway
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I thought oversizing a Rakshasa gave you the new Gigas anyway
There was commentary to that effect in the INF eyecandy thread (which is...uh...missing? What the hell?), but I think they also said they'd abandoned the Gigas as both a concept and a model?
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There is no old Gargant AFAIK, and no version is available for download. But you guys are so high profile if you asked them I'm sure they'd give it to you.
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Actually just upsize the sathanas, give some extra weapon turrets and Dante style paintwork and you get something similar.
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But I want the real one :doubt:
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Then find it somewhere else. I'd be willing to bet (and hope) that the BP team knows better than to include it for the sake of including it.
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Well if they include it I'll give them each $1000.00
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Warning: Contains stuff that goes boom. Do not ingest
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Karaj wanted no more discussion on this topic, sir. I would suggest you delete that.
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All right...
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Internet censorship, now with double the fun deletage of postage!
Anyway, I presume we'll be seeing the Beis in WiH p2. Will we be flying in a wing with them?
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Or perhaps multi view missions, like you play as Samuel Bei or some random pilot in a few missions just to show what is happening on other battlefronts.
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I don't think they'll suddenly start to switch perspective in the middle of the campaign....
The only thing I think we will see from the perspective of someone else than Laporte before BP3 will most likely be messages/recordings that Laporte reads/watches, in the form of text or cutscenes.
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Speaking of which, there were a couple third person fiction entries in War in Heaven and I wonder if people feel strongly that those should be first person.
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Naw, keep them Third Person. They were done well, the Mars scene in particular.
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Oh also when the GTVA team up with the UEF to fight the Shivans there has to be a mission where they use the Elder's secret project to fight the Dante above Earth and then boom shivan super lasers shoot ! ! !
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Naw, keep them Third Person. They were done well, the Mars scene in particular.
I rather liked the more sinister and almost . . . impersonal? atmosphere of the ant story. At the same time, I suppose a good story can't be sinister ALL the time.
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Remember the ants!
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Come to think of it: Laporte liked the red ants more. Shivans look insectoid and red.
Was that intentional?
Or might that decision even have been influenced by Ken, further cementing his being a Shivan?
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Come to think of it: Laporte liked the red ants more. Shivans look insectoid and red.
Was that intentional?
Or might that decision even have been influenced by Ken, further cementing his being a Shivan?
you are a made thing
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I thought he was a Vishnan
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I rather liked the more sinister and almost . . . impersonal? atmosphere of the ant story. At the same time, I suppose a good story can't be sinister ALL the time.
That was the exact reason I liked them. It sent the impression that Noemi was being watched. Reinforced the whole Ken thing.
And yes. The Ants.
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I thought he was a Vishnan
He could be either, but it's somewhat implied he's Shivan
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I thought he was a Vishnan
He is a guide, a voice within... Shivans, Vishinans... they make no difference to his eyes, actions and decitions shall define what Laporte will to become. :P :P
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I've been operating under the impression that he is a Shivan. I figured the Shivans were trying to use Noemi and the UEF to take care of the GTVA for them, since it seems as though the UEF fits the Shivan criteria for "Not violently Slagging all their Planets." Except that, for whatever reason, possibly Vishnans, their hands are tied in this Universe, so they want the UEF to do it for them.
That also kind of defeats the purpose of the UEF not being warlike, but whatever. If I'm wrong, so much the better.
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Granted, this is only me responding to someone else's theory, since I'm actually a proponent of them using mobile assets like ships in exactly the manner you describe for this project. But I like this discussion.
The problem we face with the concept of "No Stealth in Space," no matter how true it may be, is that according to the Pegasus, Freespace Physics means you can have stealth. While in FS2, they were simply un-targetable, in WiH A wing Of Pegasus stealth fighters were, somehow, completely in invisible to radar. Even after they opened fire they weren't actually showing up, IIRC, though I know for a fact that the direction of space they come from registers no contacts, not even the random "unknown" blips, until they open fire. Going by that, it seems like you can completely stealth an object, at the very least from the sensors of a fighter. And it seems like it would be easier to Mask the reading of a station hidden away somewhere, say the inner two worlds, seeing as how you wont have to worry about constant engine emissions, nevermind the distance most things scanning for it would be operating at.
Edit: Damn it. Took to long. Why have you stolen my debate, HLP? :mad:
When I played I thought that complete-invisibility was only applicable to the Kent's sensors, since the knight called out that there were stealth fighters incoming. I assumed the Lao Tze just had a more sensitive sensor suite (or they were just calibrated to detect the Pegasus based off of data from the captured/planted stealth fighters)
About the special project, couldn't the UEF just have whatever it is, mobile or not, in 'hiding' well above or below the orbital plane?
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Yep, or they could do what the GTVA does with logistics ships, and have it move around at intervals.
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Thats what I was thinking. Having a few autonomous research units hopping around the inner planets would be an excellent way to prevent any Tev recon or strike teams ruining your day.
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I never even considered the idea of him being a Shivan. Sneaky and manipulative are two characteristics that don't describe Shivans at all. They're more of a "blow the **** out out of everything" race.
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Just a few quick ideas and possibilities:
Maybe the theory that what we saw in the hallfight cutscene were just manufactured bio-mechanical soldiers is true and Ken is one of the "real" Shivans, controlling out of the Shadows.
Just because the creations are rather blunt in their tactics doesn't mean the creators are dumb.
Also the Shivans could afford those direct assault, because apperently they don't have to worry about atrition.
Furthermore it's quite possible that the Shivans weren't trying to wipe out the Terrans and Vasudans, but only tried to teach them a lesson, or maybe their goal was an alliance between the two warring factions in the first place (at least in the BP timeline it makes sense).
Or the Shivans are fed up with the high losses they took during their two incursions and have switched to sneaky tactics, which they don't like as much as a direct assault, but costs them less.
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They had 100 Sathanases (Sathani?). It was made clear that if they wanted to they could stomp all over the GTVA.
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Well, in the BP-Verse, I imagine the Vishnans and Shivans drinking whisky while watching the black and red ants kill each other.
Even with all their new technology, the GTVA has simply not enough ships to hold the line against the Jugs...
So they sealed of Capella, trapped the humans and vasudans in their systems and now, they can watch while everyone kills each other.
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They only seal the Sathanases in Capella. However, that is not the only known Shivan entry point. They have been entering also in FS1 from somewhere beyond Ross 128.
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They had 100 Sathanases (Sathani?). It was made clear that if they wanted to they could stomp all over the GTVA.
Except that they dont want to, or rather cant. Universal Truth made it clear that the Shivans are forced to operate under a set of rules, and In this universe they have yet to rebel against those rules. Whats more, it seems like the UEF, save for some relatively minor problems with the Gefs, has managed to achieve the potential the Vishnans described in UT, being peaceful and productive and what all. It wouldn't surprise me it the Shivans are attempting to back the UEF from the shadows by using Noemi.
Well, that or they really are just trying to get us to kill each other off, though if that was the case that would seem to imply that they would be able to do it themselves, within their rules.
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Or maybe they want to silently sabotage what the Vishnans, through the Elders, have created to show them that they were right in attacking the Terrans.
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Or maybe they want to silently sabotage what the Vishnans, through the Elders, have created to show them that they were right in attacking the Terrans.
Thats a good one too.
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Speaking of which, there were a couple third person fiction entries in War in Heaven and I wonder if people feel strongly that those should be first person.
It was a bit confusing at first, since I'd never seen the story presented that way in Freespace; it wasn't obvious that I wasn't reading Noemi's personal log. The whole user interface of Freespace makes it seem like the player is on a spaceship, seeing through the character's eyes, reading messages on a viewscreen.
I think it'd feel more natural and more immersive if the perspective were consistently first-person (except in cutscenes).
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Maybe make it more clear... but the 3rd person is actually refreshing for me.
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Except in one place in AoA, in Samuel's dream where you play as a nameless pilot.
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You play as Sam juxtaposed into the volume of space the battle takes place in. It's a dream, you don't actually have to be there.
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I would like the track "Surface of the Sun" or "What do you see?" from Sunshine...Could maybe use it as the BGM for a recap...
Actually, If I can figure out how to record Playthroughs, I might make some trailers using those tracks
Maybe a revamp of "Definitive Battle" and/or "Hidden" from Inferno - Hey you already did Syphon/2nd Reality
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Just a few quick ideas and possibilities:
Maybe the theory that what we saw in the hallfight cutscene were just manufactured bio-mechanical soldiers is true and Ken is one of the "real" Shivans, controlling out of the Shadows.
Just because the creations are rather blunt in their tactics doesn't mean the creators are dumb.
I know this is an old post, but FYI [V] have explicitly stated that this is not the case. What we saw were Shivans - they specifically said that it wasn't some kind of power armour or defence drone or whatever. Buuut the whole "hive mind" theory, if it turned out to be true, certainly leaves the door open for their being more than one type of Shivan - workers, soldiers, queens etc. might all look very different.
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Seems quite a nazistic / fascistic line of development there, to have different roles for different "shapes" of Shivans.
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Seems quite a nazistic / fascistic line of development there, to have different roles for different "shapes" of Shivans.
Well, or like insects, which have different physical castes with different roles in society. Not saying whether or not BP is doing something like that though.
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Seems quite a nazistic / fascistic line of development there, to have different roles for different "shapes" of Shivans.
Well, or like insects, which have different physical castes with different roles in society. Not saying whether or not BP is doing something like that though.
Exactly my point. Where do you think nazis found their inspiration?
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I think Nazi ideology was more of a master race type of thing than a component-based society. You could find more parallels in India (the source of a lot of Nazi Aryan ideology, geographically at least).
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Heh. Godwin's law.
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Well it is canon that "the Shivans demonstrate considerable diversity as a species"
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Yes it is, yes it is
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Heh. Godwin's law.
Beat me to it. :)
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So is the Gargant going in?
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So is the Gargant going in?
You know, I think out of all of them this mod has the highest percentage of admins who will kick you off of their mod forum for things like that. I don't think the answer has changed, and if it had, would they tell us?
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(http://villagethinker.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/successful_troll2.jpg)
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No, dumb troll is dumb.
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I dunno he's kind of growing on me
growing huge
like a gargant
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I dunno he's kind of growing on me
Parasitical.
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More use of creative FREDding with a purpose.
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I dunno he's kind of growing on me
growing huge
like a gargant
Quoted for lulz.
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Just a few quick ideas and possibilities:
Maybe the theory that what we saw in the hallfight cutscene were just manufactured bio-mechanical soldiers is true and Ken is one of the "real" Shivans, controlling out of the Shadows.
Just because the creations are rather blunt in their tactics doesn't mean the creators are dumb.
I know this is an old post, but FYI [V] have explicitly stated that this is not the case. What we saw were Shivans - they specifically said that it wasn't some kind of power armour or defence drone or whatever. Buuut the whole "hive mind" theory, if it turned out to be true, certainly leaves the door open for their being more than one type of Shivan - workers, soldiers, queens etc. might all look very different.
I don't see the connection there. You say it isn't wearing power armor or some such and isn't a drone (I assume you mean fully mechanical construct either AI or remote controlled - some insects have subtypes called drones too after all). But a genetically manipulated being or a being grown in a lab is neither. And since they are considered evil, they shouldn't have problems doing something like that to members of their own species. Or maybe the augmentation was even voluntarily to increase their abilities as soldiers.... if they are individuals with a free will in the first place anyway.
Now what you said would certainly contradict the other theory I threw around in another thread, about what we saw being an encounter suit for the shivans and them being energy or psychic beings without a physical body. Though since it was only contradicted in a post or interview of a Volition member and not by any official release, I think a mod could go with the idea anyway.
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And since they are considered evil...
By whom? By your humanesque sense of morality? There's a tautology hidden here, my friend.
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So is the Gargant going in?
(http://tsuzukusekai.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/1232784975565.jpg)
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Could we shoot down SSMs before they jump to another engagement?
Reposting because it seems like it got lost. :< Soooo... yeah.
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I think it's possible, but you have to be very quick. The SSMs only linger around for slightly longer than the game's arbitrary immunity on them, I think.
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It could be done in a mission, the problem is that FRED does not have a hook to determine whether a weapon has been shot down.
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And since they are considered evil...
By whom? By your humanesque sense of morality? There's a tautology hidden here, my friend.
By whom you ask?
I'd say by pretty much the entire Human and Vasudan races in FS2 and a lot of real people too.
Me? I think what they do is wrong. That doesn mean they are necessarily evil, though wiping out entire planets, sunsystems and races is hard to justify. Especially since they didn't even try to communicate (or at least didn't put enough effort into it that Humans and Vasudans were able to even notice it).
As for the SSM matter:
I have pretty little idea of what's possible in FRED these days, so don't laugh if the following idea is ludicrous.
Would it be possible to fake the jumpout of the missile and really let it fly on invisible to hit an invisible target and then judge how many missiles got through by the damage that dummy target took?
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Unfortunately there is no way that I know of to perform FRED operations on weapons.
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And since they are considered evil...
By whom? By your humanesque sense of morality? There's a tautology hidden here, my friend.
By whom you ask?
I'd say by pretty much the entire Human and Vasudan races in FS2 and a lot of real people too.
Exactly. That is why I said it was tautological. It's still true, shivans are evil, despite this fact being tautological: we consider everything we "don't like" as evil, and if we don't like what shivans are doing, they are evil. Seems simplistic in logical terms, but it works.
Me? I think what they do is wrong. That doesn mean they are necessarily evil, though wiping out entire planets, sunsystems and races is hard to justify. Especially since they didn't even try to communicate (or at least didn't put enough effort into it that Humans and Vasudans were able to even notice it).
Notice, all this is human values, not shivan nor "alien". What is "wrong" in wiping out entire species, apart from humans not liking it? How many times you kill annoying ants crawling up the kitchen table, without a second's thought? Do you consider yourself "evil" for doing so?
And this obsession with communication might well be just a human folly. Perhaps it's precisely this obsession that the shivans are keen to wipe the galaxy from, as some form of pollution. Ever thought about that?
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Hmm, what about firing local SSMs to a token ship very far away from the combat zone ?
On second thought, I think they still leave ugly trails between their point of origin and their destination.
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Unfortunately there is no way that I know of to perform FRED operations on weapons.
Perhaps this could be done by making a ship that uses the missile model (or even a different model, for example a missile attached to subspace drive module) and launching it using a fighterbay patches or some kind of FRED trick. It wouldn't most likely work for ship launched SSMs, but for those launched from some kind of static platforms, it might (BP ones seem to be the of former kind though).
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What is "wrong" in wiping out entire species, apart from humans not liking it? How many times you kill annoying ants crawling up the kitchen table, without a second's thought? Do you consider yourself "evil" for doing so?
You have a severe problem with scale.
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What is "wrong" in wiping out entire species, apart from humans not liking it? How many times you kill annoying ants crawling up the kitchen table, without a second's thought? Do you consider yourself "evil" for doing so?
You have a severe problem with scale.
That's exactly what the ants are saying!
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That's exactly what the ants are saying!
I doubt it. Luis's scale problem is in equating killing few with killing many.
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That's exactly what the ants are saying!
I doubt it. Luis's scale problem is in equating killing few with killing many.
I dunno, we've wiped out a number of species and we don't seem too bothered about it. I can see what he's going for.
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Yes, which is why he should say that rather than use an ants analogy that's easily countered. :P
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Unfortunately there is no way that I know of to perform FRED operations on weapons.
Perhaps this could be done by making a ship that uses the missile model (or even a different model, for example a missile attached to subspace drive module) and launching it using a fighterbay patches or some kind of FRED trick. It wouldn't most likely work for ship launched SSMs, but for those launched from some kind of static platforms, it might (BP ones seem to be the of former kind though).
Make them local SSMs.
Have them warp out, then warp back in to hit a "target" with a set amount of HP (maybe a cargo container a billion km out).
Shot down SSMs won't hit it, but ones that aren't intercepted will.
Thus you can keep track of how many missiles made it out by some math on how much damage the target took.
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That's pretty much what I had in mind too, though I didn't think of using "ships" instead of weapons as SSMs.
Me? I think what they do is wrong. That doesn mean they are necessarily evil, though wiping out entire planets, sunsystems and races is hard to justify. Especially since they didn't even try to communicate (or at least didn't put enough effort into it that Humans and Vasudans were able to even notice it).
Notice, all this is human values, not shivan nor "alien". What is "wrong" in wiping out entire species, apart from humans not liking it? How many times you kill annoying ants crawling up the kitchen table, without a second's thought? Do you consider yourself "evil" for doing so?
Apart from the bold red part, that I wanted to bring to your attention again, there is a difference between Humans and ants. The only way I know of that Humans can "communicate" with ants is, putting down a trail of pheromons to make them go on exactly that rout.
As Bosch showed communication between Humans and Shivans is possible. You won't be able to build starships and inhabit several starsystems without being an intelligent species, so the Shivans know they are fighting intelligent species. Since they don't kill us out of ignorange, that leaves either a higher goal (the most likely one in the BP setting), profiteering or sadism/classical "the galaxy belongs to us, wipe out the lesser species" kind of alien. The latter two are just wrong, no matter how you put it.
So the only ambiguity is the "higher goal", but what goal could be worth so much bloodshed, including all the Shivans that died during the two wars?
Now notice how I ask what goal could be worth it, instead of saying no goal is worth it! Even though I think it's very unlikely, there is the possibility of them being justified or even right.
I dunno, we've wiped out a number of species and we don't seem too bothered about it. I can see what he's going for.
Yes we did and it is just as wrong as the Shivans wiping out species (even more so, since it's not fictional). In some cases it happened out of ignorance, when we destroyed their habitats, in other cases it was even deliberate and in yet other cases they died out for profit. And killing off a whole species for short term profit is definately evil. Even though I dislike using the word evil most of the time, here it fits.
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No analogy is perfect. Don't burn me over it ;).
Me? I think what they do is wrong. That doesn mean they are necessarily evil, though wiping out entire planets, sunsystems and races is hard to justify. Especially since they didn't even try to communicate (or at least didn't put enough effort into it that Humans and Vasudans were able to even notice it).
Do I need to underline the "hard to justify" part? You may be having problems getting a justification for shivan actions, but I really doubt that the shivans will be so puzzled about it. I'm not saying that the shivans aren't "evil". I'm saying that this concept of "evilness" is human. Shivans could be amazingly puzzled by this concept alone.
Notice, all this is human values, not shivan nor "alien". What is "wrong" in wiping out entire species, apart from humans not liking it? How many times you kill annoying ants crawling up the kitchen table, without a second's thought? Do you consider yourself "evil" for doing so?
Apart from the bold red part, that I wanted to bring to your attention again, there is a difference between Humans and ants. The only way I know of that Humans can "communicate" with ants is, putting down a trail of pheromons to make them go on exactly that rout.
And instead of doing so, you kill'em. You, sir, are a monster! ;)
As Bosch showed communication between Humans and Shivans is possible.
Yes.
You won't be able to build starships and inhabit several starsystems without being an intelligent species, so the Shivans know they are fighting intelligent species.
Another human concept, one that I find extremely vague and troublesome. Are dolphins intelligent? Are elephants intelligent? Or do we say intelligence is what exists when beings talk to each other? Or make maths? Build buildings? But here we are just discussing human achievements. What do we know about the possibilities of different "intelligences" landscapes?
Why not a species that regard communication as cumbersome, stupid, innefficient, pollution?
Since they don't kill us out of ignorange, that leaves either a higher goal (the most likely one in the BP setting), profiteering or sadism/classical "the galaxy belongs to us, wipe out the lesser species" kind of alien. The latter two are just wrong, no matter how you put it.
Coz you say so? I'm extremely convinced by your argument there, "are just wrong", period. Yeah.
They could be doing something similar to what we do when we see an animal in pain and about to die, we shoot it. Perhaps they see in us only painful beings who are on the verge of self-destruct, why not spare us the misery? There could be endless possibilities, all you require is a good writer, and that's something more difficult to have ;).
So the only ambiguity is the "higher goal", but what goal could be worth so much bloodshed, including all the Shivans that died during the two wars?
Now notice how I ask what goal could be worth it, instead of saying no goal is worth it! Even though I think it's very unlikely, there is the possibility of them being justified or even right.
You're obsessed with this human thing called "morality". Until you drive out all these human institutions you'll begin to understand, not what the shivans are doing, but an endless and rich landscape of opportunities. I don't buy, for instance, the idea of "unintelligibility", I think it's a contradiction in itself, I think everything is intelligible, it may just be so hard to understand.
Consider, for instance, that the fact you consider X evil is exactly the reason why war between you and X is inevitable.
I dunno, we've wiped out a number of species and we don't seem too bothered about it. I can see what he's going for.
Yes we did and it is just as wrong as the Shivans wiping out species (even more so, since it's not fictional). In some cases it happened out of ignorance, when we destroyed their habitats, in other cases it was even deliberate and in yet other cases they died out for profit. And killing off a whole species for short term profit is definately evil. Even though I dislike using the word evil most of the time, here it fits.
Look, I'm not saying it isn't evil. What I AM saying is that "evil" is a human idea. It may come as a completely ridiculous one by the Shivans.
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Unfortunately there is no way that I know of to perform FRED operations on weapons.
Perhaps this could be done by making a ship that uses the missile model (or even a different model, for example a missile attached to subspace drive module) and launching it using a fighterbay patches or some kind of FRED trick. It wouldn't most likely work for ship launched SSMs, but for those launched from some kind of static platforms, it might (BP ones seem to be the of former kind though).
Make them local SSMs.
Have them warp out, then warp back in to hit a "target" with a set amount of HP (maybe a cargo container a billion km out).
Shot down SSMs won't hit it, but ones that aren't intercepted will.
Thus you can keep track of how many missiles made it out by some math on how much damage the target took.
I was thinking about this, but how to get a capship to fire turret weapons at a specific target a billion KM away?
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Increase weapon range?
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Increase weapon range?
I think you just totally missed the point.
You might be able to fake it by turret-tag-only'ing the SSM turrets and then SEXP tagging the decoy target.
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Don't know if it should go here, but I was playing around with a mission I made, and I noticed that the Sidhe is extremely powerful at close range (I could easily annihilate Uhlans right up close), and is still pretty potent at range if the target gets hit by some of the bolts - was that intended, or will it be toned down for the next release if it's allowed for player use?
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Firstly, I would like to say that BP is, perhaps one of the top tier campaigns I've played yet (and my favorite.), excellent job, guys! :) What I would love to see is more "decapitation" attempts by the GTVA, I'd love to see Serkr Team make a move at one of the three Solaris' destroyers.
One thing I noticed during the mission "Ken" was Steele talking about something or someone entering through dreams, could it be that he has the same gift Laporte does?
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Thank you! Glad you liked it.
Don't know if it should go here, but I was playing around with a mission I made, and I noticed that the Sidhe is extremely powerful at close range (I could easily annihilate Uhlans right up close), and is still pretty potent at range if the target gets hit by some of the bolts - was that intended, or will it be toned down for the next release if it's allowed for player use?
The Sidhe is pretty badass, especially in a 4-gun bank. It will probably be restricted to the Ainsarii and may have its damage tweaked.
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Unfortunately there is no way that I know of to perform FRED operations on weapons.
Perhaps this could be done by making a ship that uses the missile model (or even a different model, for example a missile attached to subspace drive module) and launching it using a fighterbay patches or some kind of FRED trick. It wouldn't most likely work for ship launched SSMs, but for those launched from some kind of static platforms, it might (BP ones seem to be the of former kind though).
Make them local SSMs.
Have them warp out, then warp back in to hit a "target" with a set amount of HP (maybe a cargo container a billion km out).
Shot down SSMs won't hit it, but ones that aren't intercepted will.
Thus you can keep track of how many missiles made it out by some math on how much damage the target took.
I was thinking about this, but how to get a capship to fire turret weapons at a specific target a billion KM away?
Is it even possible to put things at such distances in FRED?
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Maybe not quite that far but you can go pretty damn far.
Actually...yeah, maybe that far.
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My brother once figured out how far the engine could support. The distance was equivalent to several orders of magnitude beyond the observable universe. After not very far though, errors and inconsistencies prevent any sort of serious gameplay.
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If you put something that far out no one will ever see it anyway so you should have no problem making it a Gargant, right?
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Didn't get a chance to see if this was already posted, but I felt it was important enough to jump right to the point:
In 18 months of war, you think the GTVA would have realized that they needed to upgrade/improve/refit their ships to deal with UEF strikecraft. Perhaps improved blob turrets or replacement with sentry-gun like equipment should be implemented in game. Or maybe even go for an entirely new system on the Alliance warships.
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Didn't get a chance to see if this was already posted, but I felt it was important enough to jump right to the point:
In 18 months of war, you think the GTVA would have realized that they needed to upgrade/improve/refit their ships to deal with UEF strikecraft. Perhaps improved blob turrets or replacement with sentry-gun like equipment should be implemented in game. Or maybe even go for an entirely new system on the Alliance warships.
You'll see entirely new systems and some generally improved turret weapons, as well as (probably) new strikecraft. Also bear in mind the Nyx and Atalanta are to a degree already outfitted for UEF-fighting.
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My brother once figured out how far the engine could support. The distance was equivalent to several orders of magnitude beyond the observable universe. After not very far though, errors and inconsistencies prevent any sort of serious gameplay.
Eventually you start fleeing for your life from phantom fighters and crazed corvette captains.
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I'm curious how the Carthage is going to play into the next campaign, considering the player (and the Wargods) could have destroyed its entire battlegroup. The 2nd Battlegroup could now consist of nothing but an Orion.
EDIT:
Anita Lopez doesn't seem like the type to go on after that either.
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Unfortunately there's no easy way for us to carry the player's performance in that respect over from R1.
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Is that cos you can't carry over variables from one campaign to another?
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Eventually you start fleeing for your life from phantom fighters and crazed corvette captains.
:lol: nice reference
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My brother once figured out how far the engine could support. The distance was equivalent to several orders of magnitude beyond the observable universe. After not very far though, errors and inconsistencies prevent any sort of serious gameplay.
Eventually you start fleeing for your life from phantom fighters and crazed corvette captains.
I see what you did there.
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My brother once figured out how far the engine could support. The distance was equivalent to several orders of magnitude beyond the observable universe. After not very far though, errors and inconsistencies prevent any sort of serious gameplay.
Eventually you start fleeing for your life from phantom fighters and crazed corvette captains.
I started hearing the creepy clockwork.
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Thinking of things I'd like to see in the rest of WiH, here's a list:
- Mines, or perhaps decent scaled defense platforms (the latter could carry a powerplant, possibly shielding itself that way, thus requiring the GTVA to call in ships with beams, which can in turn be jumped again by UEF ships).
- A next generation superiority fighter. The Uhlan has a hard time against more modern GTVA fightercraft. I'm sure that a more expensive fighter, to counter the advantages of the new GTVA crafts is not unthinkable, to fly besides the new assault fighter and superheavy bomber which are already a wartime project.
- Atleast another cruiser or corvette for the GTVA capable of launching torpedoes. These weapons seem restricted to GTVA destroyers, yet they are so very effective against warships when timed properly.
- A next-generation, smaller Mjolnir of sorts. There is a great tactical advantage when being able to augment your firepower with beam satelites around fortified positions, forming a second or third line as jumping that deep into territory is near-impossible.
- Some more next-gen weapons for the GTVA. I'm sure 18 months of battle with the UEF would have given birth to weapons which can more efficiently compensate for the UEF advantage of having maneuvrable and fast fightercraft. How about faster trebuchets with half the payload? Deadly when fired by an Ares wing. Or a heavier turret-based maxim, useful for de-clawing UEF spaceships while being able to put older GTVA cruisers (Fenris and Levianthan) to better use.
- GTVA shield satelites. A set of satelites which spawn an effective shield or energy barrier over a larger area, hampering the UEF gauss- and mass driver artillery strikes on stationary targets (it's far more difficult to hit a small satelite than it is to hit a large destroyer).
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Some "capture enemy tech" missions would be cool...be nice to finally have beam cannons on Earth's side...some Hybrid Beam cannon/Massdriver warships? ;)
And loads more missions with Gunships...God i loved that fighter xD
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I'm curious how the Carthage is going to play into the next campaign, considering the player (and the Wargods) could have destroyed its entire battlegroup. The 2nd Battlegroup could now consist of nothing but an Orion.
EDIT:
Anita Lopez doesn't seem like the type to go on after that either.
I don't think Lopez has much of a choice, unless she resigns (which I think isn't allowed in the middle of an operation) or defects.
The ships of her battlegroup were at least damaged badly before they jumped out, so I see no problem with them just not appearing in WiH2. Wether they are destroyed or rotated back to GTVA terretory for repairs, matters little to those in Sol, unless the come back repaired like the Imperieus.
You could even make a point of the surviving ships being reassigned to anti-shivan patrols or peacekeeping in quiet GTVA sectors, after repairs being finished, to recupperate from the stress of nearly being wiped out and seeing so many of their comrades die or get captured in the wargods' last assault.
While the GTVA did come out on top, it was still a costly victory for them.
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I think based on how Delenda Est runs it's pretty much guaranteed the Carthage Air Wing gets wiped out. Regardless of the status of the rest of the battlegroup they'll have to pull back to Delta Serpentis to restock on strikecraft. At the very least then they won't be in Sol, therefore there isn't a huge need to draw attention to the matter. :)
I want the player's next homeship to be a Sanctus, the UEC Expendable.
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Sanctii have no fighterbay, that might be a little problematic.
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Oooh ooh how about being based on an Upanishad or Demeter... They have fighterbays!
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Actually, is it possible for Ships in FS to have external fighter racks? Would be kind of idiotic to have on a Sanctus, as their job is to dive headfirst into beam rape which would probably result in said racks becoming unusable, but it might be cool on some other ships. Assuming its feasible in the engine, of course.
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The Carrack Cruiser from Star Wars has external fighter racks
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I don't think Lopez has much of a choice, unless she resigns (which I think isn't allowed in the middle of an operation) or defects.
The ships of her battlegroup were at least damaged badly before they jumped out, so I see no problem with them just not appearing in WiH2. Wether they are destroyed or rotated back to GTVA terretory for repairs, matters little to those in Sol, unless the come back repaired like the Imperieus.
You could even make a point of the surviving ships being reassigned to anti-shivan patrols or peacekeeping in quiet GTVA sectors, after repairs being finished, to recupperate from the stress of nearly being wiped out and seeing so many of their comrades die or get captured in the wargods' last assault.
While the GTVA did come out on top, it was still a costly victory for them.
I believe it has been explicitly stated that the Carthage and her battlegroup will play a large part of WiH2.
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The Carthage at least has appeared in screenshots.
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That doesn't mean it has to consist of the same ships, except the Carthage. I didn't mean to say the whole battlegroup was moved, but the individual ships that got shot up so badly were rotated back (if they survived) and replaced by others.
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Norbert is a wise man.
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The Carrack Cruiser from Star Wars has external fighter racks
Interesting, but I actually got the idea from Starlancer. In that game one of the Russian's heavy cruiser classes, I forget which one, was fitted with External Launch racks. Scary when they got the drop on your Battlegroup, as all of their Strikecraft could be launched at once. There was at least one mission where you got the drop on a ship of that class though, and It was a sitting duck since it couldn't launch it's screen in anything resembling a timely fashion.
A ship with a large external rack might fit in with the current GTVA shock-jump philosophy actually.
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that would be the cyclone class... although the badanov and krasny also have them...
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Well, two things WRT to racks
A) It would probably be easier and of better form to sortie the aircraft you need for the assault beforehand, and have them jump in with the vessel, rather than deploy when they're there. The latter has the potential to end rather badly if the racks are hit by stray beam fire or exploding ordnance.
B) If anything, the only time you want to sortie everything is if the ship's about to go down. What sortieing everything better achieves is giving the enemy the opportunity to down your entire CAW, which isn't so great.
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A carrier expecting an attack will usually launch its entire compliment if possible to prevent any going down with the ship. Other carriers or nearby fixed bases can take in survivors. Attack birds can be told to go somewhere safe and orbit in FS as well as anywhere else. (Arguably in FS however they can make a valuable contribution to ship defense with Piranhas or the like.)
If there's a reason to keep fighters aboard, it's not that Dilmah.
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That's what I was getting at with 'if the ship's about to go down', i.e. the group is under attack and standby fighters can't handle it. I thought what was meant earlier was that the entire CAW would be sortied during an attack on a hostile carrier group, which is slightly different.
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That's what I was getting at with 'if the ship's about to go down', i.e. the group is under attack and standby fighters can't handle it.
Ah, but that's where we differ. You mean the group is actively under attack and can't handle it with existing resources; I mean that if the group is about to come under attack (i.e. the raid is spotted forming up in FS, given subspace drive, or it arrives at fairly far distance).
Basically, fighters are a dangerous thing to have sitting around (if for no other reason then their tendency to break their tiedowns or other methods of securing and slam around; armed and fueled they're a whole other level of awful), so if at all possible you should get them out of the ship. And if the ship happens to be lost, they'll survive. From a ship defense standpoint, everything you can put in local space is "noise" to confuse attackers and push them further towards task overload and not noticing the interceptor that just dropped onto their tail.
Given FS's lack of fighters with non-destructive stores like ECM pods or fuel stores, there's not necessarily much for a bomber to do unless it has Piranhas, but even so aboard the ship it's a danger to it and off the ship it's an asset.
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Yeah, that's fair enough.
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The only arguments I had even thought up to support my musing is that a Vessel with racks would probably be a ultra-specialized shock attack vessel in the vein of the recent GTVA corvette generation, and in all honesty probably would BE one of those corvettes with the racks bolted on. More like a unique "upgrade" for a small number of Bellerophons as part of a specialist squadron.
They could be handy in the sense that, say you're jumping to your target, they of course detect your subspace signature, your not a Destroyer and theres only one of you, so they arent expecting Fighter Craft, dont have countermeasures in place, and when you finally exit subspace you bleed off four wings of fighters damn near instantly and take everyone by surprise. Damage to the racks is a non-issue, as said fighters can simply jump home.
I would also argue that it could increase the time Fighters can remain on station, due to not having to jump to the target in the first place, but I dont think FS has ever actually given a crap about fuel and logistics.
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I dont think FS has ever actually given a crap about fuel and logistics.
If that statement was true, there would be no freighters, no gas miners, no cargo depots, and no attacks on supply convoys.
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Well, not with regards to fighters anyway. I've never heard pilots say 'Alpha 1, bingo fuel, RTB.' or anything to that effect.
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I dont think FS has ever actually given a crap about fuel and logistics.
If that statement was true, there would be no freighters, no gas miners, no cargo depots, and no attacks on supply convoys.
And what about TVWP. The burners need fuel.
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TVWP isn't canon. You can tell that logistics are a major part of the FS universe simply using canon facts.
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Well, not with regards to fighters anyway. I've never heard pilots say 'Alpha 1, bingo fuel, RTB.' or anything to that effect.
Yes, I meant for strike craft, not on the strategic level. Hell, fighters can even rearm in the field incredibly quickly and easily, and with no limit on the number of times they can do so, as support vessels can simply be rotated in and out, provided their wingmates give them some decent cover.
Fighters in FS station time is dictated solely by plot and mission design. Hell we dont even know if fighter craft have a finite fuel source. They could run on something that allows their engines to burn effectively for days on end.
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BP fighters most def have a finite fuel source. UEF ships are much less efficient than GTVA ones.
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Excellent. Word of God helps out immensely. Did you guys ever come up with figures, or was that just a general guideline for mission design?
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Just flava. We could actually implement it in gameplay, though...
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I'd expect UEF fighters to need refuel every few hours, while GTVA fighters could probably hold at least a whole day without support.
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The only arguments I had even thought up to support my musing is that a Vessel with racks would probably be a ultra-specialized shock attack vessel in the vein of the recent GTVA corvette generation, and in all honesty probably would BE one of those corvettes with the racks bolted on. More like a unique "upgrade" for a small number of Bellerophons as part of a specialist squadron.
They could be handy in the sense that, say you're jumping to your target, they of course detect your subspace signature, your not a Destroyer and theres only one of you, so they arent expecting Fighter Craft, dont have countermeasures in place, and when you finally exit subspace you bleed off four wings of fighters damn near instantly and take everyone by surprise. Damage to the racks is a non-issue, as said fighters can simply jump home.
I would also argue that it could increase the time Fighters can remain on station, due to not having to jump to the target in the first place, but I dont think FS has ever actually given a crap about fuel and logistics.
While it's a cool idea I would've thought that since fighters can jump in with their own drives anyway it sort of makes the 'shock' value null. The whole point of a destroyer or any ship with a hangar is it to rearm, refuel and repair fighters. Not to mention giving the pilots some respite. I can't see fighter racks filling this role at all, especially the repair aspect. I can only envision them being fitted to smaller, more vulnerable vessels. Small and vulnerable is not a description you want for your homeship.
On the fuel issue: a general idea I thought was fighters aren't really limited in any meaningful way by how long they can scoot around in space, but by how many times they can charge and use their subspace drives. I like to think that was a significant advancement the GTVA had made over the years since Capella, for example when chasing the GTC Duke.
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I always believed that fighters could last weeks or even longer without refuel. I was under this inpression because Kappa 3 of Kappa wing from "Mystery of the Trinity" was MIA for almost a whole act, and later showed up in "A Game Of Tag". I don't think he would have been siting around with his engines off that whole period.
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I'd expect UEF fighters to need refuel every few hours, while GTVA fighters could probably hold at least a whole day without support.
Where the GTVA had invested in cheap, sophisticated superiority fighters capable of independent operations since Capella (an answer to qualitatively inferior Shivan bombers), the UEF fighter corps maintained a moderate reserve of extremely capable high-firepower fighters and gunships. Lacking intersystem jump drives or sustainable energy weapons, these short-duration, low-fuel, high-intensity UEF fighters - the Uhlan, Kentaroi, and most notably the Uriel - were an easy match for the GTVA’s four- and six-ship wings of obsolete Myrmidons and Nahema-screening Kulas.
Not a WHOLE lot of detail, but it does let one know that GTVA fighters are more independant and UEF fighters are more sprinters designed to work close to base.
BP:AOA demonstrates the advantages of GTVA fighters very well I think; Bei's wing chased the GTC Duke through a ridiculous number of systems, and Bei still had enough fuel to fight off a flight from a SD Demon. Taylor and Corey had enough fuel to maintain life support wherever they ended up.
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I'd expect UEF fighters to need refuel every few hours, while GTVA fighters could probably hold at least a whole day without support.
I imagine that GTVA fighters might actually last a whole heck of a lot longer, given their usage of inter-system subspace drives and ability to mount extended patrols as a result of that.
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We know for sure that GTVA fighters come with onboard reactors. Both the sabotaged mission with the Sunder and the Bastion escort proofe that. Now I'm far from an expert on reactors, but I guess they need very little fuel to keep going way more than a few hours.
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Just flava. We could actually implement it in gameplay, though...
Oh gosh, plugging from a Sanctus. :D
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These questions have surely been answered already in this board or even this thread, but as I do not have the time to read 66 pages:
1) When are we gonna see Shivans again?
2) Will we see some UAF vs. Shivan action then? Because I hope to see a lot more of those Solaris-class destroyers. These things are really awesome. :)
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There are no Shivans in BWO.
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Wut?
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you heard me!
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Wut?
A reference to the second post in this thread. (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=48507.0)
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Oh hot damn, I really asked that as the first question in that thread? Go me. :pimp:
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or is there another mr cuddles?
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MOAR DAKKA
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A GTVA win. ;)
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Actually, it's UEF ships that have more dakka. GTVA ships are shootier and zzapier, and have all these clever gubbinz.
Great, now I'm imagining WiH if everyone was Orks.
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UEF
=
(http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/more_dakka.jpg)
GTVA
=
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSkXMwiBILpdOx-mlKfmSjh-Qh3MHlQEAgD2QuuzLA1blXKHeCiOw&t=1)
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Actually, it's UEF ships that have more dakka. GTVA ships are shootier and zzapier, and have all these clever gubbinz.
Great, now I'm imagining WiH if everyone was Orks.
UEF=Tau
GTVA=Imperial Navy
Discuss.
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Great, now I'm imagining WiH if everyone was Orks.
WAAAAGH! Steele
UEF=Tau
GTVA=Imperial Navy
Discuss.
more like UEF = Imperial Navy and GTVA = Adeptus Astartes
for those who never played Battlefleet Gothic: Imperial Navy fleets are all about hurling wave and wave of torpedos and missiles at your enemy, Astartes aka Speeece Marys have the big lazer guns if my memory serves me right
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Well, the UEF fight a lot like the Tau: elite attack craft, prow weapons batteries, and Apocalypse torpedoes that are fired in swarms like Tau drone missiles are.
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I feel like the UEF is much like the Imperail Navy with all its torpedos, and the GTVA (terrans only) are the adeptus Astartes in that they get the most advanced ships and weapons, ie the Titan and Raynor. Vasudans feel like the Elder and Shivans a mix of Tryanids and Necrons.
I would just like to see more of the epicness of WIH part 1, with some major WTF and brown trousers time, ie that SOC mission DIVE DIVE pilot, first time i played that it i jumped out of my seat. Need some missions like that. Would also like the UEF to score a couple of victories against the GTVA.
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UEF=Tau
GTVA=Imperial Navy
UEF isn't a terrible comparison, but the lack of forward Lance batteries or equivalent ruins the GTVA comparison.
Instead, perhaps What Lies Within, Fear We to Ask. (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2350032a_BFG_Necron_and_Tyranid_Fleets.pdf)
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I feel like the UEF is much like the Imperail Navy with all its torpedos, and the GTVA (terrans only) are the adeptus Astartes in that they get the most advanced ships and weapons, ie the Titan and Raynor.
I think your fluff got stuck in the year 38000.
Due to the editcs made after the Horus Heresy the Space Marines aren't allowed to have "real" space warships.
Except for the Cobra destroyer (which is very effective in space battles and thus also very controcersion in wether the SMs should be allowed to use them), everything else is fully geared toward forcing a planetary landing and thus not as effective in pure space battles as the Navy or Mechanicus vessels (at least in the backstory.... the game obviously had to make compromises to keep it balanced).
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BEAMS! DEATH BY BEAMS! Okay, maybe not. Or death by bees.
One thing I'd like to see from a story POV is if you're forced to take a ship with two or three crewmembers (I.E. the Izra'il, the Uriel, the heavy bombers), that I'd like to see some interaction between the crew. Granted, Laporte's been flying mostly alone in her ship, but what are the odds she may get along with the Weapon Systems Officer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapons_Systems_Officer) or Navigator in the back seat?
From a missions POV, I don't know if someone suggested this, but how about a mission like the second in Vassago's Dirge? Say, you have to take a Lapith and have to strike several minor capital targets across sections in high orbit of Earth and Mars, as in "jump, move fast, blow up targets or drop enough bombs so other strike packages can handle stragglers), jump out, re-load/repair, get to the next target, rinse and repeat," just to demonstrate how efficient precision strike bombing tactics can be. (Unless there was something in the lore description I overlooked regarding how fast the Lapith can recharge subspace drives without a burnout.)
Oh, and another cool thing I'd like to see: the Izra'il in action. Funnily enough after taking it out on a test fly, it feels like the F-15E Strike Eagle (maybe it's just me because of how the fighter looks and operates, or practically it's the only ship I can think of that can scarily do a lot of multi-role action like the GVB Sekhmet).
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Black_Yoshi1230 hit a good idea. It would be very nice to have a bit of interaction with the other person in a two seater like the Uriel, Izra'il, or the bombers (assuming we get to fly them).
The only thing I dislike about the Izra'il is that it feels less maneuverable than the Uriel because of the lack or reverse thrust. The secondary capacity is godly.
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@Blak_yoshi, that is a good idea, i always wondered what your copilots did, when you were bombers in FS2, I remember in the FS intro the Apollo had a copilot, albeit dead.
I think it would also be cool to see some more of the GEF, and would love to see some UEF equivalent of SOC missions!
@-Norbert- The up to date fluff on Space Marine battle barge is "A Battle Barge is essentially one of the most potent starships deployed by the Imperium of Man, easily equivalent in power to that of an Imperial Navy Battleship " So Marines still get the better gear, esp the Grey Knights
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The Space Marines do get good gear, but technically they're really only supposed to use it for forcing planetary landings and orbital support.
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Being an avid Battlefleet Gothic player, I think I can shed some light on this.
Space Marine ships are focused on orbital bombardments and planetary landings. However, it turns out the guns used for bombardment are quite effective when used on other ships too, but short ranged. Marines don't have many lances, which are more or less the go-to ship killer, because they're accurate and tear through armor easily. Marine ships also pack very heavy armor and strikecraft than can operate as both fighters and assault boats, but they have no bombers. Their ships operate much better independently than Navy ships do.
Imperial Navy ships are often very focused on what guns they carry, and operate exceedingly well in balanced teams. They're focused on very heavy broadsides of standard batteries or lance batteries, and forward-firing torpedoes to disrupt enemy formations. Only five (of around 30) Navy ship classes have fighter bays: the Dictator-class carrier, the Exorcist-class grand cruiser, the Mars-class battlecruiser, the Oberon-class battleship, and the Emperor-class battleship. Navy tactics are basically what you get if you cross 18th/early 19th century line tactics and early 20th century battleship tactics.
Chaos ships are, like Marines, much more multipurpose than their Navy equivalents, and place a heavy emphasis on strikecraft. The most commonly used ships all carry fighters, bombers, and assault boats, and they carry a lot of them. The batteries on Chaos ships typically have good fields of fire, but they aren't as powerful or as long ranged as those on IN ships. Very few torpedoes. Chaos are basically WW2 US Navy IN SPACE!
Eldar are your finesse fleet. Very powerful lances, crap armor, holo-fields which makes them near-impossible to hit, and fast only if they're going the right way (yeah, wind in space), but can turn on a dime.
Tau work with rather ordinary forward-facing gun batteries and very accurate torpedoes (because they can turn in flight). They're completely and utterly outclassed by pretty much everyone else. Their strongest ship, the Hero-class, is barely equivalent to a run-of-the-mill Imperial Lunar-class cruiser.
Necrons are OP. Ridiculously powerful guns, very, very good armor, the absolute fastest ships (as in, most escorts have a 25cm move, theirs get 40 or 50).
I could go on describing the other two fleets, but bleh. Orks are silly and like ramming, and Tyranids have tentacles. So, what's my point after that long, non-Freespace-related post? None of the fleets in FS are especially similar to WH40k ones. Necrons and Shivans, maybe.
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Um, what does any of this have to do with WiH?
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Aesaar, didn't the Tau fleet get some new, better ships in the Taros Campaign Imperial Armour book?
rscaper1070: Absolutely nothing, but we're having a nerdfight so stop interrupting! :lol:
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Let's follow Black_Yoshi1230's train of thought and bring this thread back on topic. I'm happy to split out the W40K stuff as it's developing into an interesting discussion.
Copilot chatter is definitely doable, and has been considered at times. The assault fighters and bombers could definitely do with some.
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I'm out of the loop at the moment, but what role does the copilot play in-universe? Is he/she a weapons system operator?
EDIT: I'm committing to get back on IRC. :D
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@-Norbert- The up to date fluff on Space Marine battle barge is "A Battle Barge is essentially one of the most potent starships deployed by the Imperium of Man, easily equivalent in power to that of an Imperial Navy Battleship " So Marines still get the better gear, esp the Grey Knights
Yes, but how many SM battlebarges are there? As far as I know, only the really presigious chapters have one of them and most chapters don't have any.
And the Grey Knights can barely be counted among the Adeptus Astartes anymore... they are either a completely seperate department or part of the Inquisition and thus I highly doubt they are subjected to the usual Space Marine rules (rules as in in-universe rules, not game rules).
For the co-pilot issue... wouldn't that require that the player is only allowed to select two seater ships? Sure you check which ship the player flys and then toggle the co-pilot chatter accordingly, but then you'd have to make sure the co-pilot isn't saying anything important, to make sure players flying solo don't miss it.
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@-Norbert- The up to date fluff on Space Marine battle barge is "A Battle Barge is essentially one of the most potent starships deployed by the Imperium of Man, easily equivalent in power to that of an Imperial Navy Battleship " So Marines still get the better gear, esp the Grey Knights
Yes, but how many SM battlebarges are there? As far as I know, only the really presigious chapters have one of them and most chapters don't have any.
And the Grey Knights can barely be counted among the Adeptus Astartes anymore... they are either a completely seperate department or part of the Inquisition and thus I highly doubt they are subjected to the usual Space Marine rules (rules as in in-universe rules, not game rules).
For the co-pilot issue... wouldn't that require that the player is only allowed to select two seater ships? Sure you check which ship the player flys and then toggle the co-pilot chatter accordingly, but then you'd have to make sure the co-pilot isn't saying anything important, to make sure players flying solo don't miss it.
Wh40k:
As a Fanboy, I thought that each chapter gets a battlebarge, althougfh it would be funny to see a chapter which needs the IN for transport. The Ultrasmurfs have three battlebarges...
Copilot chatter would be a pleasure, something like "Targeting, hold her still" or "Target aquired, here we go" would be sweet or a line if you evade a missile like "that was close man".
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Replace Betty sounds with a Persona system?
WIZ-pers.tbl?
Re: This Lapith mentioned a few times above, I don't recall seeing it.......... Is it in some bonus spin-off i may have missed? Is it a Tev glorious Alliance bomber?
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Lrn2wiki (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/UEB_Lapith)
It's in the VPs of the latest released WiH. You can see it in the F3 ship lab.
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So it doesn't feature in any mission content as of yet?
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Nope.
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For the co-pilot issue... wouldn't that require that the player is only allowed to select two seater ships? Sure you check which ship the player flys and then toggle the co-pilot chatter accordingly, but then you'd have to make sure the co-pilot isn't saying anything important, to make sure players flying solo don't miss it.
Bomber missions that don't use the Lapith, you can have dialogue among all three crewmembers (pilot, Weapons, Navigation), but having to use two-seater ships was my point (I can guess if you were having the character doing on-the-job training for a certain ship, you can have your backseat driver tell you how to operate the craft, oh, and also, he can do the autopilot work for you and switch over to you, as in The Intervention (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/The_Intervention)). However, one advantage in the field is if all of your wingmen are dead (if someone's behind you, or in a story POV, how lucky you are to be the only ones left). My post was assuming the mission writers forced you to take a multi-seat craft.
What, did you think that Laporte's going to fall asleep and hallucinate on the front and think Ken's sitting behind her? Then wake up and just see it's a normal WSO/Comms Officer running the craft?
The Lapith is just in the Tech Room, honestly, I thought it was with one of the strike packages that you call to saturate the Medea (all I saw were just Uriels and Durgas, plus a superiority wing I called to keep the skies friendly). I honestly would think that the Lapith, as it's closing in, would launch Paveways to take out point defenses, then roll in and bring down the hurt. I could imagine a Feint-Parry-Ripsote situation, Lapiths saturate, drop Hammers, jump out, hand off to the gunships and frigates.
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Don't underestimate the range and power output of this triple Redeemer. That thing can deal a whole world of hurt from way outside AAAf range, as long as enemy fighters are occupied otherwise (like, for example, intercepting your Warhammer swarms...). In Insane, that thing just eats your weapon energy for breakfast though.
UEF Bombers don't necessarily deal most of their damage with bombs :p
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Replace Betty sounds with a Persona system?
WIZ-pers.tbl?
I like this idea in principle. Having someone in the back seat who nervously mutters "We're getting a bit close to that cruiser..." would do wonders to mitigate my miraculous ability to find every AAA gun in space and run into it at least once.
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My post was assuming the mission writers forced you to take a multi-seat craft.
That is exactly my concern, that the ship selection had to be restricted for the sake of ingame chatter.
Don't misunderstand me here, I don't think that alone is a reason for not doing it, but it's something that needs to be considered while thinking about the whole thing.
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What are monoseat UEF fighters anyway, Uhlan and Kent ? That's not restricting much if you make an assault/bombing mission...
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What are monoseat UEF fighters anyway, Uhlan and Kent ? That's not restricting much if you make an assault/bombing mission...
The Uhlan, Kent, Lapith, and Ainsarii are the only monoseats on the UEF side.
Weapons wise, I'd like to see the UEF's Sidhe shotgun in action. I can imagine the raw damage it can present against those pesky, large Shivan bombers (plus it's the only weapon I can think of that wouldn't make me suck against the Atalanta [thanks to that one SOC pilot that flew it at the end of Act 1, my ideal response is a dual Grimler volley] and Dragon, mmmm.... buckshot in space).
Edit: On higher difficulties, evil Auroras (as they are one of the ships made for electronic warfare, how about an EMP rack or two?) :D
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MBlue's that aren't just plain inferior to BGreen's in everything except range? And for shock-jumps, that extra range isn't exactly necessary. And since a Chimera is literally built around 3 of these, fits in some point defense turrets, and is still noticeably larger than a Deimos, it really should feel like a salvo of overwhelming firepower that would give a Sathanas reason to worry. The Iceni had significantly more firepower, on top of being a command frigate, science vessel(ish), heavily armored, good speed, and is not that much larger than a Chimera.
Basically, a Chimera that acts as threatening and powerful as it looks like and is advertized as. Yes, I'm aware that the UEF has enough problems with them already, but it kind of makes defanging a Chimera with a few Paveways all the more meaningful and dramatic, doesn't it?
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Replace all UEF blob turrets with Point Defense Turrets. Those things look awesome, are balanced while still being versatile and pretty effective, and make blob turrets flat out obsolete.
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Decrease the built-in inaccuracy on the pulse turrets. It doesn't have to be much, but if these things are supposed to replace flak guns I would like to see it take down targets at least half as fast as them.
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Halo-style plasma torpedoes? Not quite sure how that could be done in this engine (here's my current brainstorming on it--)
Trying to figure out how to make a "plasma torpedo" weapon for FS. What I'll need:
1. A warmup/sucking-in-particles phase, like the beam cannons have. This part is the least critical.
2. A laser, possibly "blob"-like, that can track targets and move like a missile or torpedo.
3. A way to make it look like something other than a clear-cut blob. I need something that looks more like a cone(ish) of blue fire. It should have a blue trail, as well.
4. An impact explosion that is similar to its Halo counterpart--bursts into blue flame on impact, kind of spherical in nature.
Problems:
1. Primary weapons can't really using homing. (Right?)
2. Might require new bitmaps/textures for the visual effect.
Possible solutions:
Make it a secondary weapon with plasma-like textures. This allows it to use homing and function like a missile, but it might require a work-around for the warmup sequence--perhaps a fire-delay with a custom texture/animation that triggers when "fired", but looks like a warmup sequence?
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Please, PLEASE make the missions more flexible in terms of player playstyle, or make it clearer what's going on, when, and what I'm supposed to be focusing on/working towards. A big part of that, I know, is lack of voiceacting and TTS problems making it very difficult to keep track of and think about dialogue during combat, but this was probably my biggest problem with WiH--too often, I didn't understand (or misunderstood) what was going on, what I should focus on at a given time and try to accomplish at a given time, what I could be reasonably expected to accomplish above the bare-minimum, and...Delenda Est. The epitome of "what's going on/what or how much do I need to do?" because there is simply way, WAY too much going on both visually and audibly to comprehend and keep track of the various twists and turns of the mission (often through dialogue) and figure out what a given random wall of text means (beams are going to be overdriven in 40 seconds? Or that they're overdriven now, and will overheat too much in 40 seconds?), and for the love of god please don't make me disarm all of the beam cannons myself while all my allied gunships do nothing---
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Updated versions of FS2-era GTVA missiles/weapons? Like an EMP missile that isn't stupidly impractical to use because it has little range, velocity, and you often get caught in your own blast? A Piranha that doesn't suck (or has a limited heat-seeker guidance?) A Tempest-style missile that has the velocity to match standard guns (or at least approach that of the Balor)? An updated version of or new cross-breed between the Rockeye and the Tempest--close-range "dumbfire" missile that has some heat-seeking guidance, and is small enough to be able to pack a decent number of in a standard missile bay?
Harpoon update that has better hit probability or shorter aspect-lock time? Even if it packs less of a punch, the point of a missile like this is to quickly and reliably get an aspect lock, and have a good chance of hitting the target regardless of the angle of deflection of the shot.
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Can we have gliding on craft as a standard? Possibly with the Dynamic Glide Cap for simplicity and (maybe) balance? It makes dogfighting feel much more fun, dynamic, and interesting, at least in all the experimenting I've done with it. It puts a whole new spin on fast, maneuverable fighters and slower, heavier assault fighters alike.
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Dumb-fire torpedoes. Seriously, in all of the experimenting I've done with it, it has been both fun to play with and against, much more friendly with skill and tactics, and far more satisfying to use (letting a pair of Cyclops loose against a corvette feels awesome and dramatic, even if the damage is unchanged--rather than having to wait a ridiculous amount of time to get aspect lock on a turret (that hopefully won't be destroyed before you fire) so that you can actually loose the bombs at point blank range after sitting there for a stupid amount of time.
Personally, I'd like to see bombers be more specialized for carrying smaller numbers of larger, more powerful torpedoes that would have a faster thrust/speed and a bit better durability, but do much more damage. Or, perhaps, have heavy bombers just be designed to use heavy anti-ship weaponry rather than torpedoes (kind of like the Durga). I made a variant of the Durga that changes its gun bank configuration from 4-4-4 to 4-8, and had all of them fitted with Redeemer cannons. Linked primary banks, reduced secondary capacity, and a fun amount of DAKKA.
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Bombers. Bombers should not, NOT, be sent in to run at a target without an escort. This happens almost every time in WiH, and it's both jarring and a clear reason why bombers tend to fail unless they can double as fighters. The best you usually see is a bomber wing by itself that has the benefit of a distant fighter wing jump in at the same time as a distraction. Why not just have some fighters as part of the wing, so they jump together? Or just have two wings jump together?
The reason heavy bombers are impractical in WiH is because, with the long (and nonsensical) refire delays with torpedoes and boring, long aspect-lock times for all torpedoes (at close range!), heavy bombers would have to be able to sit right next to their target for minutes on end to release their full payload. Heavy bombers, both in history and the modern world, usually have the capability to release their full payload in a few seconds. Torpedo bombers (WW2 era) never carried more than one torpedo because there weren't any practical, larger craft to fit the role that could be used on the aircraft carriers of the day. And the torpedoes were, individually, pretty damn powerful regardless.
In-universe, I don't understand why anyone would want to be a bomber pilot (unless you're using something like a Durga, maybe), as your role is incredibly dangerous for relatively low gain even when successful, and downright boring; there's little difference between a "veteran" bomber pilot and a "rookie" one--they do almost the same simple task in the same way and hope to get lucky and not be killed in the process.
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Sorry for the list; last one for now.
HUD addition: what missiles are tracking you
Basically, some text that tells you what missiles are currently tracking you. This is to make missile evasion more fun, skillful, and understandable. It is usually not apparent what kinds of missiles are being fired at you, especially when several missiles are fired at you.
What it might look like:
A small, square/rectangle-ish section of the HUD, near the center cluster, that provides simple text to tell you. It is ordered, based on the order fired upon you.
Undecided: Whether it just adds "x2" when two missiles of the same type are fired at you, or if it sticks to the chronological order--like Trebuchet x2 | Tornado x2 | Trebuchet x1 ////(of course, if someone launches a dual-fire-mode salvo of Trebs, it will still say Treb x2 because they launched at the same time).
Might need some abbreviations of missile names, just to keep it lean/clean.
Ex:
Trebuchet = Treb
Tornado = Tornd
Hornet = Horn
Harpoon = Harp
Rockeye = Rock (or Rcky, etc.)
TAG B = TAGb
Javelin = Jav (or Javn, Javln, Javl)
Grimler = Grmlr (or Gmlr)
Dart = Dart
Dirk = Dirk
Slammer = Slmr
Etc.
Once a missile is either:
A) Dead (explodes after lifetime is over, shot down, etc.)
B) Incapable of hitting/tracking you (you are outside the missile's seeker FOV, or the missile can't turn back around in time to get near you before its lifetime is over)
It drops from the list. Bonus points if you can make it briefly flash to a different color (like green) before dissappearing, so that it's easy to notice/keep track of. Further bonus points if you can have an individual "distance to target(you)" for each missile. Alternatively, instead of chronological order for the list, you have a proximity order--the list is ordered from "closest to you" to "furthest from you".
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Replace all UEF blob turrets with Point Defense Turrets. Those things look awesome, are balanced while still being versatile and pretty effective, and make blob turrets flat out obsolete.
The only UEF warship that still mounts blob turrets is the Sanctus, and that's because it's severely outdated. Karunae, Narayanae, Solarises and Custos all have PDTs and/or Burst Flaks.
Please, PLEASE make the missions more flexible in terms of player playstyle, or make it clearer what's going on, when, and what I'm supposed to be focusing on/working towards. A big part of that, I know, is lack of voiceacting and TTS problems making it very difficult to keep track of and think about dialogue during combat, but this was probably my biggest problem with WiH--too often, I didn't understand (or misunderstood) what was going on, what I should focus on at a given time and try to accomplish at a given time, what I could be reasonably expected to accomplish above the bare-minimum, and...Delenda Est. The epitome of "what's going on/what or how much do I need to do?" because there is simply way, WAY too much going on both visually and audibly to comprehend and keep track of the various twists and turns of the mission (often through dialogue) and figure out what a given random wall of text means (beams are going to be overdriven in 40 seconds? Or that they're overdriven now, and will overheat too much in 40 seconds?), and for the love of god please don't make me disarm all of the beam cannons myself while all my allied gunships do nothing
1) The F4 key wasn't put on your keyboard just because it looks nice.
2) You're Alpha 1. Do your job.
Decrease the built-in inaccuracy on the pulse turrets.[...]
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Updated versions of FS2-era GTVA missiles/weapons? [...]
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Dumb-fire torpedoes. [...]
Why don't you, like, make your own mod with your ideas, instead discussing half of BP's artistic/gameplay choices and trying to turn BP into your own vision ?
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Replace all UEF blob turrets with Point Defense Turrets. Those things look awesome, are balanced while still being versatile and pretty effective, and make blob turrets flat out obsolete.
The only UEF warship that still mounts blob turrets is the Sanctus, and that's because it's severely outdated. Karunae, Narayanae, Solarises and Custos all have PDTs and/or Burst Flaks.
The Sanctus was still operating on peace-time armament during R1. It was more than adequate in its role against rogue factions like the Gef. In R2 you should see wartime armed Sanctii.
Well that is unless plans have changed.
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salty: The idea of a hud gauge that tells you what missiles are chasing you is actually rather interesting, however implementing it will take some time.
That being said though, regarding your proposed balance changes, it is very, very unlikely that any of them will ever be used by us. Reason being that if we were to implement them, we would have to go through AoA, R1, and all the R2 missions we already have and rebalance them; we neither have the time nor the inclination to do that. Take, for example, those dumbfire torpedoes you keep banging on about. I do not doubt they're fun to use, but have you considered what it would be like to fly against them? We already know how that looks like; see this thread for evidence (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70050.0), and flying in that sort of environment just isn't fun, unless everything else has been balanced with that capability in mind.
Like an EMP missile that isn't stupidly impractical to use because it has little range, velocity, and you often get caught in your own blast?
Tiny problem: The AI ignores EMP effects. EMP is an anti-player weapon only (although it can be used to great effect to destroy bomb swarms)
Can we have gliding on craft as a standard?
No. Again, this is a change that would affect every single mission, and is thus unlikely to be used. Glide has its place on certain rare ship classes, but as an upgrade for ALL ships, it just doesn't fit into the FS2 gameplay formula (something we do want to stay close to).
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Can we have gliding on craft as a standard?
No. Again, this is a change that would affect every single mission, and is thus unlikely to be used. Glide has its place on certain rare ship classes, but as an upgrade for ALL ships, it just doesn't fit into the FS2 gameplay formula (something we do want to stay close to).
This is all up to you guys, but when I was looking at the Lapith model up-close in FRED, it had an MFD that said "Activate Glide?" Are you guys thinking of giving the Lapith glide (just to really make it a fast-moving true-to-the-term strike bomber) or was that some sort of joke?
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Many of the UEF crafts come from Steve-O's federal pack and aren't initially intended for BP. That should answer your question.
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If you really want to, it's quite easy to enable gliding for ships by yourself.
While it doesn't seem to go so far as to break missions, it certainly does change the mission balance.
Here's a fan glide-mod (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70954.msg1403112#msg1403112) I put together for exactly that purpose, complete with instuctions of how you can do it yourself.
Again I stress that this WILL change mission balance FOR SURE and is only a fan mod, not something done by the BP team.
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Whole thread too long, didn't read.
What I would like to see, in order of priority, though from the OP I can see one is already being addressed, and the other one has already been decided:
- A happy ending to the Simms/Laporte attraction arc. Or at the very least, one that is not so bitter. I could stand the civil war, the horrors, the near-fall of the nation whose culture, morals and values I sympathize with the most... but that ending, while masterly crafted and executed, was just too much for such an emotive and beautiful, if sometimes a bit forced narrative-wise, love story. Let us have at least one thing that gets a happy ending, please.
- Optimization. My rig may be far from gamer-oriented but it should at least be able to get the job done when playing at absolute minimum settings. I'm not kidding, I had everything turned to the lowest possible value, all graphic features like normals and glowmaps turned off, and still I suffered frequent slowdowns and had to cheat my way through some of the dogfights because FPS where unbearably low. This was specially noticeable during big explosions and subspace jumps.
Apart from that, everything else was just perfect to me. So I'll add:
- Keep doing everything else you've been doing so far. I wholeheartedly loved every second of it (yes, even the ending).
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- A happy ending to the Simms/Laporte attraction arc. Or at the very least, one that is not so bitter. I could stand the civil war, the horrors, the near-fall of the nation whose culture, morals and values I sympathize with the most... but that ending, while masterly crafted and executed, was just too much for such an emotive and beautiful, if sometimes a bit forced narrative-wise, love story. Let us have at least one thing that gets a happy ending, please.
Al carajo con eso
I would rather never see the release of BP2-2 or BP3 than see an ending to a stupid romance again, there's happy endings elsewhere, some of us like to see the characters suffer and die without purpose, it makes it feel like a real war, where people die for nothing all the time.
*Ahem*
As for what i'd like to see...
Less pointless missile variants, more missiles that have unique effects, for example, a Lapith marker that summons a strike to saturate an area near the detonation site (it would work like a piranha)
The space shotgun would be neat too.
But at the end of the day it's really about what the devs feel should be there, not me.
Lastly, I never thanked the devs for the great work put into WiH, it and Blue Planet were what brought me to HLP in the first place and let me discover a treasure trove of mods, thank you.
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FWIW I want Simms to live. :(
Halo-style plasma torpedoes? Not quite sure how that could be done in this engine (here's my current brainstorming on it--)
Trying to figure out how to make a "plasma torpedo" weapon for FS. What I'll need:
1. A warmup/sucking-in-particles phase, like the beam cannons have. This part is the least critical.
2. A laser, possibly "blob"-like, that can track targets and move like a missile or torpedo.
3. A way to make it look like something other than a clear-cut blob. I need something that looks more like a cone(ish) of blue fire. It should have a blue trail, as well.
4. An impact explosion that is similar to its Halo counterpart--bursts into blue flame on impact, kind of spherical in nature.
Problems:
1. Primary weapons can't really using homing. (Right?)
2. Might require new bitmaps/textures for the visual effect.
Possible solutions:
Make it a secondary weapon with plasma-like textures. This allows it to use homing and function like a missile, but it might require a work-around for the warmup sequence--perhaps a fire-delay with a custom texture/animation that triggers when "fired", but looks like a warmup sequence?
It probably won't get into BP for the reasons mentioned above, but homing plasma torpedoes as primaries aren't very hard at all. The primary itself can't home, but it can silently detonate and spawn a child munition that does. It was a long time ago, but IIRC a spew of oversized Kayser particles makes a nice looking trail. I have no idea how hard that would be on graphics, though. For the charging phase I'm not sure, but perhaps you could do something with the initial shot before it detonates and starts to home. And probably anything is possible with scripting.
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Unless there's some massive plot explanation I missed...
... any new Vasudan fighters or bombers on the table? Preferably if the sandmen realized how sucky their Searpi and Osiri are and decided to replace them?
I mean, the Tevs have about eight new ships, why don't the Zods?
Attached below was a completely crappy mission I wrote testing how well the UEF went against the Vasudans, mind the complete plot inconsistency. It's rather crappy proof I made to make my point.
In all honesty, the Hatshepsut should have won. See point #3 of mission failed.
[attachment removed and sold on the black market]
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The Vasudans don't have many new ships in the modpack yet because those ships haven't been necessary to tell the story.
We have big plans for the modern Vasudan military/Medjai. The fluff should give a few hints as to the direction we want to take them. They've had the long prosperity of the UEF, the motivation of the Terran elements of the GTVA, and their own sociopolitical/philosophical drive. But it's up to you to speculate when exactly you'll see some of these newer fleet elements debut.
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Uh, I so want to see the Zods duking it out with blazing guns^^
Actually I like the assets like the Pharaoh, the Newet, Petbe and there was another cruiser...
But I bet we'll see some kind of long range artillery ship like in Inferno^^
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The Vasudans don't have many new ships in the modpack yet because those ships haven't been necessary to tell the story.
We have big plans for the modern Vasudan military/Medjai. The fluff should give a few hints as to the direction we want to take them. They've had the long prosperity of the UEF, the motivation of the Terran elements of the GTVA, and their own sociopolitical/philosophical drive. But it's up to you to speculate when exactly you'll see some of these newer fleet elements debut.
Ah, okay. That clears things up a bit. Thanks.
- A happy ending to the Simms/Laporte attraction arc. Or at the very least, one that is not so bitter. I could stand the civil war, the horrors, the near-fall of the nation whose culture, morals and values I sympathize with the most... but that ending, while masterly crafted and executed, was just too much for such an emotive and beautiful, if sometimes a bit forced narrative-wise, love story. Let us have at least one thing that gets a happy ending, please.
This, so much. It's just a great aspect of the story that--hopefully--can be shaped into several directions regardless of how the myth-level plot turns out. And it's just too damn cute/sympathetic/built up to die.
Unless, maybe, the plot goes full 'INSTRUMENTALITY ALL THE THINGS' and the ending features one disturbing, large, naked R--okay let's just not go there.
2) You're Alpha 1. Do your job.
I got the impression that the 'RAMIREZ, DO EVERYTHING' dynamic isn't a good thing. And it's one thing for Alpha 1 to be tasked with a particularly difficult feat; it's another for Alpha 1 to be thrown into a cluster**** and be expected to do a series of 10 difficult, random feats without any preparation or warning beforehand, all by him/herself while the dozen-or-so allies don't really help. When all of your dozen-or-so squadron-mates are equipped with the same capabilities/craft and are all capable of and expected to achieve goal X, it's both jarring and frustrating when no one but you actually does any of it, and if things aren't going swimmingly you're either at fault or your squadronmates aren't being called out for not following orders.
The missions where BP averts this in particular, though, are awesome and all the more fun for it. The Plunder, for instance, doesn't task you and you alone with disarming the Chimera's beam cannons (your allies will also work towards this task, and even complete it themselves if you help in other ways). Forced Entry averts this by making you the commander of several wings and giving you a few general tasks--you can delegate various tasks to other wings and do your own thing, rather than having to do all of the difficult parts by yourself (note: when I tried this in Delenda Est or Bearbaiting, for example, it didn't help at all).
Bearbaiting, on the other hand, seems to be an exercise in 'it's all up to you' by giving you allies that, at best, serve as modest distractions.
I suppose, in essence, I have no problem with 'doing my job'; I have a problem with 'do everyone else's job on top of your own, don't expect much help in doing their jobs for them, and if something goes wrong it's all your fault'. The only part in Delenda Est that really felt like this were the 'disarm beam cannons' parts--whatever cannons I didn't personally disable, were never taken down; I imagine this is far more problematic than it normally is (and is intended to be) due to the uber-bombers and Karuna-suicide bugs that made Delenda Est impossible from the very first time I tried it.
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2) You're Alpha 1. Do your job.
I got the impression that the 'RAMIREZ, DO EVERYTHING' dynamic isn't a good thing. And it's one thing for Alpha 1 to be tasked with a particularly difficult feat; it's another for Alpha 1 to be thrown into a cluster**** and be expected to do a series of 10 difficult, random feats without any preparation or warning beforehand, all by him/herself while the dozen-or-so allies don't really help. When all of your dozen-or-so squadron-mates are equipped with the same capabilities/craft and are all capable of and expected to achieve goal X, it's both jarring and frustrating when no one but you actually does any of it, and if things aren't going swimmingly you're either at fault or your squadronmates aren't being called out for not following orders.
The missions where BP averts this in particular, though, are awesome and all the more fun for it. The Plunder, for instance, doesn't task you and you alone with disarming the Chimera's beam cannons (your allies will also work towards this task, and even complete it themselves if you help in other ways). Forced Entry averts this by making you the commander of several wings and giving you a few general tasks--you can delegate various tasks to other wings and do your own thing, rather than having to do all of the difficult parts by yourself (note: when I tried this in Delenda Est or Bearbaiting, for example, it didn't help at all).
Bearbaiting, on the other hand, seems to be an exercise in 'it's all up to you' by giving you allies that, at best, serve as modest distractions.
I suppose, in essence, I have no problem with 'doing my job'; I have a problem with 'do everyone else's job on top of your own, don't expect much help in doing their jobs for them, and if something goes wrong it's all your fault'. The only part in Delenda Est that really felt like this were the 'disarm beam cannons' parts--whatever cannons I didn't personally disable, were never taken down; I imagine this is far more problematic than it normally is (and is intended to be) due to the uber-bombers and Karuna-suicide bugs that made Delenda Est impossible from the very first time I tried it.
1. Alpha 1 is either a one-man army who has to deal with a bunch of stupid wingmen (and would either let them die like cattle or be frustrated just to keep them alive) or else a skilled, tactical coordinator when the situation forces it. Anyone who takes the role of Alpha 1 would have to be a promising, recently commissioned officer who can take the heat of fire under a dynamically shifting airspace (in FS2, demonstrated rather, how can I say this, difficultly leading Alpha of the 134th and... decent-ish-ly being the CO of the 70th). Then again, there's always the responsibility of having to give the team the best equipment available just so you don't have to ride with the guilt of writing their death sentences...
2. I admit Bearbaiting is murderous and sucky in retail FS2 (which makes me question if anyone tested that mission before shipping it on the disc). Play that mission via Blue Planet 2 (or at least with Fury AI) and then your wingmen won't suck (see technical notes about AI using Trebuchets).
3. Laporte is clearly not Alpha 1 (save for two missions, the first one being Beta Lead). Delenda Est, despite being the equivalent to... the Executive Officer of fighters during that op, you had Karen and Olefumi at your disposal, and thanks to the rule of plot immunity, you could tell them to do stuff on the fly and they wouldn't suck at it (if you wanted to make that mission much more tolerable, send them to disarm the corvettes when the Carthage launches the rest of the fighter screen). That mission before the fix virtually required repetition and foresight (can someone confirm during that phase, Beta and Gamma have disarming orders active? I know Delta's supposed to work on the Carthage and get subsequently slaughtered. If not, then... )
Back on track: Any missions that would make the most out of multirole fighters?
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Back on track: Any missions that would make the most out of multirole fighters?
By definition that is tricky. firstly you have a craft that probably dosn't excell at anything except possibly in it's ability to addapt to a shifting battlefield. in freespace the most common multi-role missions involve dogfighting and either turret killing or bomber supression.
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Back on track: Any missions that would make the most out of multirole fighters?
By definition that is tricky. firstly you have a craft that probably dosn't excell at anything except possibly in it's ability to addapt to a shifting battlefield. in freespace the most common multi-role missions involve dogfighting and either turret killing or bomber supression.
D'oh. I meant demonstrating the ability of the Uriel or Izra'il to do anti-fighter work and probably prove their chops at bombing (since the Uriel can carry Jackhammers, and the Izzy can carry Jacks and Warhammers). Sorry for not being specific about that.
On a stupid note: a ship named after the Celtic hero Finn McCool, or one named after Charlton Heston.
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I know I don't have the benefit of the real missions designer's scripting/SEXP work, but the Izra'il is a total beast that can pretty much chew up and spit out anything that isn't a destroyer.
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a ship named after the Celtic hero Finn McCool, or one named after Charlton Heston.
(http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/007/423/untitle.JPG)
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You're no fun. You could even rename the Terran Knossos to the McCool and it'd be all literary and ****.
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You could even rename the Terran Knossos to the McCool and it'd be all literary and ****.
Yeah, I'm starting to doubt the Tevs in their overall post-Capella misery wanted to name a ship that sounded cool and inspiring (like the Harold Saxon, Death Kitty, Blarney, or Dea Matrona), and instead have some serious or intimidating ship name (like the Kodiak, Dire Wolf, Dullahan or Andraste). Why so serious?
[13:20] <@The_E> The thing is, Celtic names would not fit in with the naming schemes we've established for some of the factions
[13:20] <black_yoshi[doh]> And the Charlton Heston thing... that was mainly because other than acting he was known to be in the NRA. I'll find something for that eventually.
[13:21] <@The_E> Finn McCool is an option for whenever First Fleet gets a chance to build more Frigates
[13:22] <@The_E> Because they have FrigRon that's very british
Then again, I keep forgetting, any idea where the UEF shipyards/construction dry-docks are?
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They have shipyards in orbit of Earth and Mars. At least some earth shipyards (Saab shipyards are mentioned in Darkest Hour) are gone in the Blitz. Mars has the Faslane (the one that built the first Orions, and more recently the three Solarises) as part of the Bradbury Fleet Yards (which are mentioned in the tech descr of the Solaris as well as some fiction).
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Finn McCool would be good for the Knossos because one of the myths associated with him has him building the Giant's Causeway to Scotland. And then a Scottish giant came over to fight and tore it up whilst running away again. THIS IS SO APPLICABLE WHY CAN'T YOU SEE
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That name would be.... too cool.
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Finn McCool would be good for the Knossos because one of the myths associated with him has him building the Giant's Causeway to Scotland. And then a Scottish giant came over to fight and tore it up whilst running away again. THIS IS SO APPLICABLE WHY CAN'T YOU SEE
That name would be.... too cool.
Would you settle for the alternative name, Fionn Mac Cumhaill? It sounds a tad more cryptic and serious, minus the overwhelming coolness. :lol:
Cue a moderator or admin saying "we have absolutely, totally rejected that proposal, and that stands. No more asking for cool names. Anyone who begs for another cool name will be shot on sight or not be able to download the second half by a three month penalty."
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Celtic names just wouldn't really work for GTVA names, if I'm honest. They're too... airy, maybe? Too tied to fairy mythology and other naturalistic spiritual stuff. They lack the epic scale that Greek and Norse names carry, or the grandeur of Egyptian ones, or the menace of demon names. They work best with space elf types and my opinions on space elves are no secret.
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They work best with space elf types and my opinions on space elves are no secret.
I'm sorry, does your mythology have swords that can lop mountains? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caladbolg)
Hinduism has even more ridiculously powerful weapons for... Shiva, who can destroy the universe with the Pashupatastra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashupatastra), Vishnu has many more, including an Astra that can destroy the wielder (and allies) if used more than once! And also has a copy of the same Astra Shiva has.
And what other mythology has mortals kick the asses of the gods?
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Dude I grew up on Irish myths and legends, you don't need to tell me they can be badass. But their actual content doesn't matter as much as cultural perceptions when it comes to the connotations of names, and the Greeks and Vikings definitely have the edge there.
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They work best with space elf types and my opinions on space elves are no secret.
I'm sorry, does your mythology have swords that can lop mountains? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caladbolg)
Hinduism has even more ridiculously powerful weapons for... Shiva, who can destroy the universe with the Pashupatastra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashupatastra), Vishnu has many more, including an Astra that can destroy the wielder (and allies) if used more than once! And also has a copy of the same Astra Shiva has.
And what other mythology has mortals kick the asses of the gods?
Very good point. Though real, historical names are pretty nice candidates as well. I'm surprised that we haven't seen a ship or class named after the Johnston, Samuel B. Roberts, Enterprise, Campbeltown, Thomas Durrant, Illustrious, etc.
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If you look at the forces deployed thread, you may see that most 1st fleet frigates are named after historical figures.
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If you look at the forces deployed thread, you may see that most 1st fleet frigates are named after historical figures.
...and things like the Vatican, which is right up Ubuntu's alley and an example of heroism or significance in war (beyond instigating them).
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On a lighter note, will the Chicago Cubs have ever made it back to the World Series by the 2300s? :p
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....
wut?
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On a lighter note, will the Chicago Cubs have ever made it back to the World Series by the 2300s? :p
They'll probably win by 2250 or something.
On another note, hmmm... planetary or system-wide factions in the GTVA that act all like they belong in Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri
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Baseball? What do you think this is, Star Trek?
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My post was just meant to be a joke, sorry.
Anyways, more on topic: was the Hades in ST the only of its kind made? If another was made, might one show up in WIH2?
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That would be neat, though I somehow doubt it. Building another Hades would gain the GTVA much. Maybe if it was mentioned or something...
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Who knows if the Hades was the only one of its kind? You know how much the GTI were sneaky bastards, well, actually, that's classified and punishable by death.
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Isn't it the GTVI now? I can't even remember.
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Why would anyone want another Hades? The design is horribly, horribly outdated by now.
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Why would anyone want another Hades? The design is horribly, horribly outdated by now.
I might add another "horribly" to that. Seriously, while the ship is extremely cool, Even a Diomedies used effectively is better than the Hades.
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tbh I just hate the GTD Hades full stop, its basic shape, weapon's placement, everything.
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While I like the design, this thing is realy outdated.
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If you look at the forces deployed thread, you may see that most 1st fleet frigates are named after historical figures.
...and things like the Vatican, which is right up Ubuntu's alley and an example of heroism or significance in war (beyond instigating them).
Cruisers have a different naming scheme yo
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Isn't it the GTVI now? I can't even remember.
Officially, I think so. Unless the whole GTI got shut down after the Hades, then GTA Intelligence Ops (think GTD Soyakaze from STR) and Vasudan Intelligence banded together to form the GTVI under tight direction of the Imperium and Assembly.
Why would anyone want another Hades? The design is horribly, horribly outdated by now.
I might add another "horribly" to that. Seriously, while the ship is extremely cool, Even a Diomedes used effectively is better than the Hades.
I wish I could say "PCD Saturn would like to have a word with you," but wrong continuity (and I haven't tested that yet). As much as a Hades can damn near slaughter an FS1 Orion, by FS2 I highly doubt it can hold in a fair fight (if there is ever such a thing by BP Alliance standards).
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I seem to recall that someone once wrote a simple ship-vs-ship mission, with no special story scripting. They pitted a Hades vs. a Sathanas and the Hades won.
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do you remember where was the hades relative to the sath?
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I seem to recall that someone once wrote a simple ship-vs-ship mission, with no special story scripting. They pitted a Hades vs. a Sathanas and the Hades won.
That's not exactly an accomplishment. Even a Fenris can do that.
And I'm trying really hard not to start a discussion with the people who find the Hades' design "cool". By Jove, what a ridiculous ship.
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I agree. The Hades is sinfully ugly. Not even cool ugly like the Deimos. Just plain ugly.
It's a lot like the Boanerges in that way.
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It's everything ugly about FS1 ships distilled into a single, confused package.
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Sounds this channel is full of haters again ! nuHades is one of the coolest ships in our MVPs. If you can't deal with its awesomeness, you can leave :cool:
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Yes, the new Hades model is pretty nice.
No, the Hades design will not be revived in BP. Because redesigning the Hades to fit into the GTVA's fleet building strategy, and fitting it with all the new weapons developed since Silent Threat makes absolutely no sense at all when it would be easier to design ships built from the ground up to support the existing strategic and tactical paradigms the GTVA operates under.
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The model is nice from a technical standpoint. It's the Hades design in general which is ugly. It's Volition's fault.
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No, it's YOUR fault for not liking it ! You have bad tastes !!!! </end sarcasm>
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When I said that the Hades is a cool ship, I was referring to the nuHades or the HTL Hades not that ugly abomination in the original.
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No amount of detail and greebling can fix the fact that its overall shape is awful.
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Aesaar and PhantomHoover have non-bad-tastes. I salute you. All the rest, may Shiva have mercy on your souls.
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Aesaar and PhantomHoover have non-bad-tastes. I salute you. All the rest, may Shiva have mercy on your souls.
Nah, who needs mercy when we have the almighty Steele?
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While i liked the Hades design, well the high poly model, It just doesn't fit why spend resources in trying to upgrade an old prototype design that wasn't tested or fully finished, with the latest weapons and what not, which it probably wasn't designed to be fitted with those weapons in the first place would most likely be a engineering nightmare and would take time to do. Prime example would be the Typhon as The Great War-era reactors of the Typhon destroyers lacked sufficient energy to sustain prolonged fire of these new weapons, rendering them prone to blackouts and reactor overloads (taken from Hatshepsut tech entry). Surely it would be cheaper and easier to make brand new ship from the ground up?
I just cant wait to see what new toys the Vasudans have in WIH 2.
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That brand new ship is called the Raynor.
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i quite like the hades. but i've long since come to realize my tastes are 180o off of the community consensus. for example i prefer the old diomedes to aesaar's remodel (no offense bro), the textures on the BP stratcomm ships look perfect to me, and i think that despite it's sucktastic performance, the hecate is one of the best looking cap ships. except for the color.
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Conceptually I love the Hecate and Myrmidon and other such bizzare designs. The Hades is just a little too. . . it looks like it was made with bits of lumber and some markers.
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That brand new ship is called the Raynor.
Does the Raynor actually have comparable durability to the Hades, though? After all, the Hades has the notable distinction of being capable of surviving the first salvo of a Sath's main beams (enough time to jump out, perhaps?) without being a juggernaut.
Conceptually I love the Hecate and Myrmidon and other such bizzare designs. The Hades is just a little too. . . it looks like it was made with bits of lumber and some markers.
I totally agree. The Hades' general design--especially its shape and layout--is just ugly. As for the Hecate...well, it could be awesome, but it suffers from a few serious flaws: lack of turrets in key areas (especially those giant 'fin' plates, which are pretty much made for such PD turrets), few and extremely brittle, large beam cannons (easier to disarm than a Deimos...and with much worse coverage), and a totally contrasting handling/maneuverability with its aesthetic (gigantic engines on top of half a dozen smaller engines, and it's as slow as an Orion...and with the engines being proportioned, laid out, and positioned as they are, the Hecate should have excellent maneuverability for a destroyer--not the exact opposite). That, I suppose, and having just one fighter bay instead of several at the many areas of the ship which completely lack practical purpose, but would be perfect for such a fighter bay. I've already had some fun/success at tinkering with POFs and tables to work on the first three issues, but I have no experience with modelling with which to address the last one.
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No it doesn't. The Colossus has more hit points than the Hades, but still can't survive a Sathanas shock-jump. Ergo, the Hades can't either. The hitpoints are lying.
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After all, the Hades has the notable distinction of being capable of surviving the first salvo of a Sath's main beams
Wait what.
Where does that come from ? And no, don't answer "tables". You know as well as I why you shouldn't answer "tables".
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After all, the Hades has the notable distinction of being capable of surviving the first salvo of a Sath's main beams
Wait what.
Where does that come from ? And no, don't answer "tables". You know as well as I why you shouldn't answer "tables".
Outside of BP, here. Heck, if you DO go by tables, Volition originally set the Hades to have 800,000 hitpoints (!), which was then halved for ST:R. It got rammed by a prepared, deliberate kamikaze attack from a Typhon-class destroyer--and it only sustained significant damage to its maneuverability (IIRC--and it's been a while--it was merely brought down to normal destroyer-level, even at that). On top of its huge bulk, it's got all kinds of benefits from reverse-engineered Shivan tech (and possibly even direct Shivan tech) that was at the absolute cutting edge of any Terran or Vasudan entity known.
No it doesn't. The Colossus has more hit points than the Hades, but still can't survive a Sathanas shock-jump. Ergo, the Hades can't either. The hitpoints are lying.
The Colossus was not in good shape to begin with. Then it got shock-jumped by a Ravana. After it killed the Ravana, a Sathanas shock-jumped it. Hell, even from a literal standpoint, the amount of hitpoints the Colly had by the time of the Sath shock-jump was fairly low. And yes, sometimes (usually on lower difficulties) the Colossus does survive the first salvo.
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*sigh*
You realise that tables being only loosely canon isn't something BP invented? The Phoenicia's survival, the Lysander's destruction; hell, even the Lucifer's invulnerability are all things that are hacked in during missions. You simply cannot declare that the Hades would survive a full salvo from a Sathanas; it's more or less completely up to individual opinion, so stop declaring things to be canon because of *your* vague justifications.
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I'm going to tell you what I told Apollo on this subject: No ship, not Terran, not Vasudan, not even Vishnan, can survive a Sathanas shock jump when all its main beams are intact. It can't be done. Period. End of story. If the tables tell you otherwise, they're wrong.
The only exception to this rule is when we're talking about the huge superships we see in Universal Truth. A glorified Great War era destroyer most certainly doesn't qualify.
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The Hades (at least with its FS1 hitpoints) can survive a single salvo from the Sathanas. The problem is, the Sathanas's beams recharge so fast that the Hades will still get blown up very quickly.
That is, unless that first salvo hits the Hades reactor/fuel supply/whatever other random system the BP team can think of. Then it might die instantly.
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The Hope ramming the Hades is not canon because ST:R itself is not canon.
STR is part of BP canon. Your argument is invalid.
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I originally deleted this, but Matth told me this was a bad idea since it was already responded to (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70810.msg1654302#msg1654302), so...
Outside of BP, here. Heck, if you DO go by tables, Volition originally set the Hades to have 800,000 hitpoints (!), which was then halved for ST:R. It got rammed by a prepared, deliberate kamikaze attack from a Typhon-class destroyer--and it only sustained significant damage to its maneuverability (IIRC--and it's been a while--it was merely brought down to normal destroyer-level, even at that). On top of its huge bulk, it's got all kinds of benefits from reverse-engineered Shivan tech (and possibly even direct Shivan tech) that was at the absolute cutting edge of any Terran or Vasudan entity known.
The Hope ramming the Hades is not canon because ST:R itself is not canon. In canon, we do not know if the Hades could withstand a destroyer's head-on collision because it has never been done. In addition, :v: has never used the Hades in any mission in the FS2 campaign, so we cannot determine if the Hades can survive a Shivan shock-jump attack.
The Colossus was not in good shape to begin with. Then it got shock-jumped by a Ravana. After it killed the Ravana, a Sathanas shock-jumped it. Hell, even from a literal standpoint, the amount of hitpoints the Colly had by the time of the Sath shock-jump was fairly low. And yes, sometimes (usually on lower difficulties) the Colossus does survive the first salvo.
At full health, the Colossus still cannot survive a shock-jump from a Sathanas. Even if it survives a full salvo from all four of the Sathanas' main guns, it cannot get out of the juggernaut's front cannons fast enough to avoid destruction from additional salvos. This is why the Alliance needed to destroy at least two of the first Sathanas' main guns before they could be certain that there was even a small chance that the Colossus could survive direct engagement with the Shivan juggernaut.
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I'm pretty sure ST:R is BP canon.
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GTCv Marcus Glaive
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Well, pulse are made by Morgan Technologies, that doesn't automatically make Derelict canon. And the Cretheus tech strongly hints at Vassago's Dirge, which still doesn't make it BP canon either.
STR is canon because the devs said so, not because of in-universe references.
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Okay, sorry for being a bit thick again. My apologies.
On a different note:
I'm curious as to why the 'disable linked primaries penalty' flag in the default AI profiles table is left to 'no'. Not saying it's 'wrong' or anything--though I would love for it to be changed to 'yes' for a number of reasons--but I'm curious about the reasoning behind the decision. Are there some reasons for the penalty that I'm missing, or was it just a feature that wasn't available in time to be incorporated into WiH, and by that time it might have screwed up the mission balancing, etc?
I did a bit of experimentation on it recently, and it worked surprisingly well. Mission balance was indeed a bit altered, but not terribly so, and the good changes (in my impression) were well worth it. The Uhlan felt much more fun to fly, as the loadouts became much more diverse due to more options being viable. The Vulcan was now a viable choice over the Maul, and using a Maul/Vulcan or Vulcan/Scalpel setup actually worked well. With the Kentauroi, it was the same kind of thing: more options were viable, and thus it was all more fun. It felt fresh, even. When using a Perseus, or Draco perhaps, the 2-2 gun bank setup was actually fun again, as I wasn't restricted to all Prom S's for good efficiency. I could vary my loadout tremendously, and it made everything much more fun.
Further, though, it really helps to avoid the trend towards using the same weapon in all banks for good efficiency--and for that weapon to be more and more of a generalist.
That's just my impression from a trial run--whether this is actually a good idea for the mod or not in practice is something I can't say. Especially with regards to mission balance (and other balance), I completely understand if it's too impractical to implement now, even if it is a good idea for the mod hypothetically (which it might not be).
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Well, it would make some loadouts more viable. On the other hand, any ship with quad-linked primaries would instantly be downgraded because it would lack versatility.
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A military freighter designed with meson bomb deployment in mind. Able to quickly drop the bomb and get out of the blast range. Faster than civilian freighters. Well armored to be able to take some punishment and enough point defense turrets to shoot down some bombs and fighters. Maybe even be able to shield the bomb itself.
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Uh...if I'm not mistaken, someone of the team said, the GTVA has meson fireships as of now...
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they confirmed node busters but thats about it iirc
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Well, it would make some loadouts more viable. On the other hand, any ship with quad-linked primaries would instantly be downgraded because it would lack versatility.
True, but how many of those are there? The Artemis, Kulas, and...is that it? Either way, it's pretty easy to tweak the pofs on those few fighters, do a slight edit on the shp-tbm, and there you go. Since the ROF is consistent, their performance is the same--but they have more options now, as do practically all the fighters.
But as it is, those quad-linked primary fighters are already lacking in versatility; you can only equip one type of gun to all of your guns--leaving the Artemis with only Maxims to defend itself with, or the Kulas without, say, a more energy-friendly gun for when power reserves are running low due to heavy Prometheus S usage.
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True, but how many of those are there? The Artemis, Kulas, and...is that it?
Sekhmet and Thoth or nu-Thoth. Vasudans could show up in the rest of WiH after all.
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True, but how many of those are there? The Artemis, Kulas, and...is that it?
Sekhmet and Thoth or nu-Thoth. Vasudans could show up in the rest of WiH after all.
Okay, true. Though the main point still applies: it would be an easy task to do a minor edit to the pofs and tables. If time is an issue, I would be happy to take care of it if the dev team would want it done in the first place.
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It fundamentally ****s with the balance of the rest of BP and will probably never happen.
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more than that, it changes a fundamental mechanic of the FS universe. should only be applied to new fighters if their design calls for it.
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Yeah, that would break everything so fundamentally I wouldn't know where to start fixing it. And it'd render the FS2 campaign unplayable with BP selected as a mod, which is a shame because we always thought that was cool.
More than that, I think it would make the game's balance much less interesting and create fewer options.
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Yeah, that would break everything so fundamentally I wouldn't know where to start fixing it. And it'd render the FS2 campaign unplayable with BP selected as a mod, which is a shame because we always thought that was cool.
I have actually done that once with Heaven assets... while I noticed in The King's Gambit you altered the Art-DH to be a more viable platform, I just have to wonder on who changed the Bakha table for Bearbaiting/High Noon (because oddly enough, despite if engines are maxed out, you're supposed to only up your burn recharge in retail, but I noticed top speed increased). Needless to say, some missions became more challenging (the Vasudan transfer arc) whilst other songs missions became slightly easier.
True, but how many of those are there? The Artemis, Kulas, and...is that it?
Sekhmet and Thoth or nu-Thoth. Vasudans could show up in the rest of WiH after all.
Okay, true. Though the main point still applies: it would be an easy task to do a minor edit to the pofs and tables. If time is an issue, I would be happy to take care of it if the dev team would want it done in the first place.
If you touch the Sekhmet, you're going to basically wreck every fun aspect I enjoyed in other mods and break the balance against the Ursa and ultimately the tough-as-nails Seraphim. (Seriously, I don't want to see the day it ends up being bastardized and becoming the Vasudan F-15E.) Bombers are bombers, fighters are fighters. Let's not virtually encroach on modern-day versatility/multi-role capability.
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What became more challenging? IIRC the only changes that should hurt the player are fixes to Nahema top speed.
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Yeah, my quick experiments using BP assets in the FS2 campaign made everything piss-easy. The Shivan ships just aren't good enough to go toe-to-toe with ships from BP, GTVA or UEF, although the latter is more because of the fighter/bomber emphasis and would be completely unsustainable given what little information we have about the UEF's logistics. Still...it was pretty fun to play "Bearbaiting" with a Uriel. Disarming the Sathanas couldn't have taken more than a minute.
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What became more challenging? IIRC the only changes that should hurt the player are fixes to Nahema top speed.
Fury Maras and Dragons that destroyed all my Tauret wingmen when you try to interdict Bosch once and for all. (Seriously, I don't let anyone fly the Serapis, ever. Though I guess that's my fault. I haven't tested Fury Horus.)
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Fury AI shouldn't be applied to the main campaign, it needs to be flagged on in the individual mission IIRC.
EDIT:
There should be some modest changes to the Artemis DH. . . bomber turrets don't fire through hulls anymore. . . most of the Shivan bombers are a little faster . . .
ACTUALLY the single biggest balance changer I think will be that ALL turrets are now set to "check hull" (not fire through the ship). This makes the Leviathan, and the Cain for example, much less dangerous with their AAA turrets.
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I believe some of the Fury AI stuff will still apply.
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I'm pretty sure the rate of fire of all enemy fighters is significantly increased, since BP removes the rate of fire scaling with ai-class and difficulty, if I'm not very much mistaken.
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ROF still increases with AI class, that's part of why Balls of Steele is so badass.
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Difficulty, then. Of course, I could still be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure the ROF scaling with difficulty was changed or removed.
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iirc, the random refire rate thingy is only removed in BP AI classes (BP-Captain and so forth), and you would probably need to select the BP AI_profile on a per mission basis for BP's AI changes to fully apply.
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More than that, I think it would make the game's balance much less interesting and create fewer options.
How do you figure? (Not saying you're wrong or anything like that; just curious about the possibilities that I might be missing).
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As I see it, with no fire rate penalty there's no advantage to a single quad bank over two twin banks. With a fire rate penalty, there is. Therefore it creates an interesting choice, choose a superior ROF with the quad bank, or more versatility with two twin banks.
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As I see it, with no fire rate penalty there's no advantage to a single quad bank over two twin banks. With a fire rate penalty, there is. Therefore it creates an interesting choice, choose a superior ROF with the quad bank, or more versatility with two twin banks.
...or you weigh the benefits of having 4, say, Prom S's rather than 2 Prom S's and 2 Balors. That way it's a choice between weapons, rather than the (kind of arbitrary) primary bank setup of the craft.
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The choice between linking fire or firing individual banks would go away. And it would completely **** over all the ships that currently have no ability to link multiple banks.
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As I see it, with no fire rate penalty there's no advantage to a single quad bank over two twin banks. With a fire rate penalty, there is. Therefore it creates an interesting choice, choose a superior ROF with the quad bank, or more versatility with two twin banks.
...or you weigh the benefits of having 4, say, Prom S's rather than 2 Prom S's and 2 Balors. That way it's a choice between weapons, rather than the (kind of arbitrary) primary bank setup of the craft.
Sorry, I don't get it :) With a linked-bank-fire-penalty, and a ship w/ 2x twin banks, you still have a choice to make between 4x Prom S & 2x Prom S + 2x Balors? You're choosing between "shock & awe" snapshot firepower + easier aiming/consistent weapon speeds (assuming Prom S & Balor are different speeds, I haven't checked), vs superior bomb-intercept/spray & pray firepower + lower power usage? i.e. you're still choosing between weapons on their relative merits?
Whereas removing the link-bank-fire-penalty, for all ships that were not designed with this setting in mind (i.e. everything in BP2), makes many ships sub-optimal choices in all situations. e.g. Battuta's point about ships than can't fire-link banks, & mine about any ship with a quad bank.
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Excuse me for my noob-ness, but what exactly is the "link-bank-fire-penalty"?
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It's the thing that lowers your rate of fire when you link your primary banks.
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Excuse me for my noob-ness, but what exactly is the "link-bank-fire-penalty"?
What Aesaar said - when you link the gun banks in your fighter, the fire rate of each individual bank drops. Total DPS is still higher (IIRC) but not as high as the summed DPS of the individual weapons.
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When you link banks, each bank fire slower.
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Thanks! I thought that it was some kind of energy related penalty. Anyway the whole thread makes sense now.
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Excuse me for my noob-ness, but what exactly is the "link-bank-fire-penalty"?
What Aesaar said - when you link the gun banks in your fighter, the fire rate of each individual bank drops. Total DPS is still higher (IIRC) but not as high as the summed DPS of the individual weapons.
Actually depends. Sometimes there is no benefit, or it even lowers your DPS.
Linking a 4+2 bank is the same as firing just the 4 bank in terms of DPS. Thus, there is (little to) no benefit in carrying the same weapon in the 2 gun bank, use it for a support weapon. I say little, as the increased burst damage for the same DPS can be beneficial if you have good aim and need to punch through shields or such, but generally you're better off with RoF over burst damage.
AFAIK, it's a ~33% decrease in fire rate when two banks are linked. Not sure about three. So, linking say, a hypothetical 5+1 would actually give you less DPS than just firing the 5-gun bank by itself (!)
Of course in reference to this thread's discussion 2+2 obviously does give a benefit over just 2, but it is markedly less effective than a plain 4, which is equivalent to say, a 3+3 (or any combination of 6 guns total).
All in all it is an interesting dynamic which is very much so a part of the FreeSpace universe and removing it would throw off a lot of players who expect it, especially in a FS-universe mod.