Author Topic: Important: Have more consistency with jump drives/frequency/crash jumps  (Read 8959 times)

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Re: Important: Have SOME consistency with jump drives/frequency/crash jumps!
Actually, question about Delenda.  What's the rationale for saying the Carthage's escorts can jump out, but the Carthage itself cannot?  Seeing as how the Carthage did not plan to be captured in Saturn's well, its escorts couldn't have jumped in before it, so they would've had a shorter time to recharge drives than the Carthage.  Or is it just because destroyers take significantly longer to charge? 

 

Offline Qent

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Re: Important: Have SOME consistency with jump drives/frequency/crash jumps!
Seeing as how the Carthage did not plan to be captured in Saturn's well
Spoiler:
Orly.

But yeah, it's much bigger, and it's already done one sprint on a prototype drive. That ship is really old.

And didn't the Hatshepsut's sprint drive make use of the "Reactor" subsystem they've had since FS2? I remember them saying something like "Flash secondary reactor."

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Important: Have SOME consistency with jump drives/frequency/crash jumps!
Actually, question about Delenda.  What's the rationale for saying the Carthage's escorts can jump out, but the Carthage itself cannot?  Seeing as how the Carthage did not plan to be captured in Saturn's well

Spoiler:
Sure about that?

Quote
its escorts couldn't have jumped in before it, so they would've had a shorter time to recharge drives than the Carthage.  Or is it just because destroyers take significantly longer to charge?

They do, and the Carthage in particular suffers from its drive setup - it can do jumps in rapid succession but then needs an extra long recharge period.

 
Re: Important: Have SOME consistency with jump drives/frequency/crash jumps!
Ahh, right. 

Spoiler:
But if it were really unplanned, the escort drives would've still been able to recharge faster?

Does that mean the new TEI desties will theoretically take even longer to recharge after such a series of jumps?  Since they're like 2x the size of an Orion. 

 

Offline Qent

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Re: Important: Have SOME consistency with jump drives/frequency/crash jumps!
Again, Orions in general and that Orion in particular except that I don't think they're building any new ones, are freaking old. I would expect TEI destroyers to handle it much better.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Important: Have SOME consistency with jump drives/frequency/crash jumps!
Yeah, the TEI destroyers have much better power grids. I'm not sure how much of this material from internal planning actually made it into the mission CB/B, but I believe there's some notes in there about how the Carthage just doesn't handle all these new systems very well.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Important: Have SOME consistency with jump drives/frequency/crash jumps!
mission 3: [...] I think the only potential for a real problem here involves the Yangtze, which might be allowed to jump out very soon after jumping in depending on how the mission script plays out...but most players will probably never even see her, so I'm not sure.
The Yangtze never appear in the release version of the mission. Someone played my multi version too much :p

mission 9: This one I'd question why the GTVA didn't jump one of its warships clear.
Easy one. The UEF had planned the attack long enough in advance and timed their attack so it happens directly after the Agincourt and escort relocated. All their jump drives are completely depleted.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Important: Have SOME consistency with jump drives/frequency/crash jumps!
mission 3: [...] I think the only potential for a real problem here involves the Yangtze, which might be allowed to jump out very soon after jumping in depending on how the mission script plays out...but most players will probably never even see her, so I'm not sure.
The Yangtze never appear in the release version of the mission. Someone played my multi version too much :p

Played the dev iterations of the mission too much, more like. I don't think I've ever done the multi version.

 
Re: Important: Have SOME consistency with jump drives/frequency/crash jumps!
Just looking over the campaign (I don't know how far you are, but it's got to be pretty far if you met the Shepseskaf)

mission 0: no warpouts at all so no problem here
mission 1: no warpouts
mission 2: the Cho, Cardinal, Idomeneus and Regensburg are all present at mission start and warp out after a full charge cycle. Some Ares jump in and out, they're fighters. Serkr Team (a group of next-gen shock jump corvettes) jumps in, takes a little while under risky attack to charge up, and jumps out. No problems here
mission 3: The Meridian is present at mission start and can (obviously) warp out. Same goes for her escorts. I think the only potential for a real problem here involves the Yangtze, which might be allowed to jump out very soon after jumping in depending on how the mission script plays out...but most players will probably never even see her, so I'm not sure.
mission 4: obviously no warpouts
mission 5: no capship warpouts
mission 6: the Redoubtable is present at mission start and warps out on a full charge. The AWACS can jump out really soon after jumping in, but they're very small craft. The Valerie doesn't have a chance to jump out after jumping in, nor does the Indus. The Atreus is a next-gen combatant with a sprint drive. No problems here.
mission 7: no capship warpouts
mission 8: no capship warpouts
mission 9: This one I'd question why the GTVA didn't jump one of its warships clear. Presumably they were unwilling to risk abandoning the Agincourt, though it's pretty negligent that they didn't manage to get even one jump-capable ship off the deck - the warships themselves were probably still in charge cycle after their last jump. No capship warpouts, however, except the Agincourt if you fail the mission - it takes quite a while to charge up. I'm less happy with this one but I don't think it has glaring issues.
mission 10: the Indus and Yangtze won't try to warp out at mission end, presumably because it's a situation just too critical to abandon the fight. Torpedo Two jumps in and gets shot to **** before they have any chance to jump out, unless you're really good. The Hood jumps out at the end of a full charge cycle. The Medea jumps in and doesn't get a chance to recharge before being shot up.  Seems fine.
mission 11: the one I'd worry about here is the Hesperia, but I'm not sure exactly if or when it jumps out - it might be a bit quick. Possibly a problem here, but it's not tactically relevant.
mission 12: nuttin big
mission 13: the Spectre is an AWACS and has time to charge anyway; the Shepseskaf has something seemingly akin to a sprint drive setup, which makes sense given how excellent Vasudan reactor design has always been. No big problems.
mission 14: jump dynamics are obviously a big deal here, but the Antenor and Norfolk both get caught on the down end of a charge cycle, and the Carthage has to use her sprint drive to escape. Seems to play by the rules.
mission 15: none of the UEF ships that jump in are able to charge up and jump out, except the Indus, which is the first to arrive and which gets to spend a large chunk of the battle in the relatively safe back rank. It doesn't have a nav fix ready either. A large number of GTVA ships are able to warp out, but they all had time to charge up. Seems fine. Mister Cuddles might break the rules of course  :o
mission 16: heh.

All in all the rules seem pretty consistent. The one I'd worry the most about is the Hesperia...checking its departure cue, though, it doesn't have one, so no problem there! After that the biggest problem is the Yangtze in Post Meridian, which can, if the mission proceeds along a certain route, jump out immediately after it jumps in. That's a clear continuity error, but it's unlikely to happen.

This is the same kind of check we ran through multiple times during development.

I've beaten the game already, so no worries about spoilers.

I MIGHT be somewhat misremembering a few instances, but even then, there are way too many for me to cede my argument, here. At all.

Now, here is how I imagine it working:

1) The power requirements for charging up a jump drive scale up X-squared; the larger the mass doing the jump, the larger/more powerful the jump drive needed, the more power (on a scale of x-squared) needed to charge it. Thus, a fighter can recharge its small jump drives pretty quickly, but a destroyer takes much longer. However, that doesn't mean that a larger ship will always take longer than a smaller one--not at all. It's just POWER needed; more efficient, powerful, larger, numerous, etc. generators/reactors can speed up this process along similar lines. Thus, a Raynor can still recharge its jump drive faster than a small destroyer, or corvette, from the Great War or maybe even Capellan era, because it's reactor/generator output is vastly larger/more efficient.

2) Navigational computing does NOT scale up like power requirements; it's purely linear, or maybe even less. Gravity affects lighter objects more than heavier ones when inertia comes into play, and ships still need their normal engines to travel through subspace, so there's definite inertia there. Further, unlike with fighters/craft, navigational computers can be very large and more powerful, so calculating a jump for a frigate like the Indus should take very little time, relatively speaking. Certainly no longer than a minute. This is backed up by canon, if I remember correctly, as the delays for a ship to jump away/escape are always mentioned to be ones of needing to recharge or repair engines, NOT calculating stuff in the navigational computer. This is further backed up by AoA--the Oresties can't jump out for ten minutes because that's how long it will take to RECHARGE the jump drives. Even in the gravity well of saturn (or wherever that place is), and under heavy attack, calculating the jump itself is never even mentioned as a difficulty or the limiting factor. Same with the Duke, even though one can make the claim that the Vishnans helped that part along.

This is further backed up by how having multiple intrasystem jump drives works in practice. You can calculate a new jump very rapidly; having the second drive means that you have a second, fully charged drive available to use ahead of time, which is why it works. Once again, WiH backs this up--the Atreus, in the mission to defend Rhezus (sp?) Station, makes several jumps in rapid succession with its dual-drive system, even while engaged in combat the entire time, and--this is notable--when the Atreus had no ships in the area to counter it, and was planning on staying there at least long enough to wipe out the station and its defenders, it was only when massive reinforcements showed up without warning and against expectations that the Atreus decided to jump out--which it did successfully, in less than 30 seconds. This is a massive destroyer we're talking about here; one that has been engaged in heavy combat constantly even before it jumped to attack Rheza, was engaged in combat during the attack, was engaged by massive UEF reinforcements, was in low Earth orbit, and was maneuvering significantly. And it still calculated a brand new jump, without warning, in seconds. It wasn't even a crash jump, either.

***
Further, it's established that you need normal engines to be able to actually do a subspace jump. The whole deal with the Yangtze doesn't make sense, then, when the stated reason it couldn't jump was that it's engines were completely down, beyond quick repair, and thus had no motive power to actually use to enter/traverse subspace. The Yangtze then promptly turns around and charges the Imperieuse, engines seemingly working just fine. Its captain confirms that when she orders the maneuver. So unless I misunderstood the dialogue after hearing it twice, the Yangtze couldn't jump because it's engines were totally down, but it then used its engines to turn around and charge a destroyer, without any known or implied consequence to the engines. Erm...what? Did I miss something?

***
Additionally, it seems that you can't jump to a place right next to a jump node, or at least not easily (heavily backed up by canon). How one can overcome this isn't explained; it might be better nav computers, better jump drives, much higher power output required, or strong enough structural integrity to withstand whatever forces/instability comes from the act. Additionally, it seems that intersystem jump drives are separate from intrasystem ones, to the point where it seems that you can't use an intersystem jump drive for an intrasystem jump. There are many possible explanations for that, but I don't think we need to go into it.

Delenda Est delenda est.

(Yay gratuitous Latin.)

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Important: Have SOME consistency with jump drives/frequency/crash jumps!
I'm not seeing any conflict with what's presented in the campaign here. It seems like the request you made in the thread topic has been satisfied.

You're glazing over some details here - for example, disregarding the difference between UEF and GTVA jump systems - and missing some obvious explanations; the Atreus probably had its jumps plotted well in advance, since the Blitz was tightly planned and well-scouted. I'm sure Steele had a jump solution for Artemis Station prepared at all his strike points.

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and was maneuvering significantly. And it still calculated a brand new jump, without warning, in seconds. It wasn't even a crash jump, either.

You've got a funny definition of maneuvering significantly if you think sitting stationary qualifies.  :p As above - you're assuming the jump wasn't prepared in advance.

Quote
Further, it's established that you need normal engines to be able to actually do a subspace jump. The whole deal with the Yangtze doesn't make sense, then, when the stated reason it couldn't jump was that it's engines were completely down, beyond quick repair, and thus had no motive power to actually use to enter/traverse subspace. The Yangtze then promptly turns around and charges the Imperieuse, engines seemingly working just fine. Its captain confirms that when she orders the maneuver. So unless I misunderstood the dialogue after hearing it twice, the Yangtze couldn't jump because it's engines were totally down, but it then used its engines to turn around and charge a destroyer, without any known or implied consequence to the engines. Erm...what? Did I miss something?

The Yangtze's loss of engine power killed her because it meant she couldn't outpace the Imperieuse at sublight, but she also lost jump capability - it's not clear whether these were related, or two separate casualties of the same hit. With no other effective option, she turned and attacked the Imperieuse at her maximum available sublight speed.

e: Systems like the jump drive are intentionally attached to a bunch of epiphenomenal, variable factors - local navigational hazards, availability of network resources, onboard power allocation during battle, recent jump history, friendly assets in communication, damage sustained, crew quality - so that any variability required to make the mission work can be explained in the fluff. Jump timings will never be pinned down to anything as precise as a quadratic curve or a clear function of the ship's mass.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 01:50:06 pm by General Battuta »

 

Offline The E

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Re: Important: Have SOME consistency with jump drives/frequency/crash jumps!
Quote
Additionally, it seems that intersystem jump drives are separate from intrasystem ones, to the point where it seems that you can't use an intersystem jump drive for an intrasystem jump. There are many possible explanations for that, but I don't think we need to go into it.

Somewhat contradicted by FS1 canon. There, fighters were retrofitted with intrasystem drives without losing flight characteristics and without losing intersystem jump capability, hinting that the replacement was a drop-in replacement that came with additional capabilities.
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Offline Aesaar

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Re: Important: Have SOME consistency with jump drives/frequency/crash jumps!

This is further backed up by how having multiple intrasystem jump drives works in practice. You can calculate a new jump very rapidly; having the second drive means that you have a second, fully charged drive available to use ahead of time, which is why it works. Once again, WiH backs this up--the Atreus, in the mission to defend Rhezus (sp?) Station, makes several jumps in rapid succession with its dual-drive system, even while engaged in combat the entire time, and--this is notable--when the Atreus had no ships in the area to counter it, and was planning on staying there at least long enough to wipe out the station and its defenders, it was only when massive reinforcements showed up without warning and against expectations that the Atreus decided to jump out--which it did successfully, in less than 30 seconds. This is a massive destroyer we're talking about here; one that has been engaged in heavy combat constantly even before it jumped to attack Rheza, was engaged in combat during the attack, was engaged by massive UEF reinforcements, was in low Earth orbit, and was maneuvering significantly. And it still calculated a brand new jump, without warning, in seconds. It wasn't even a crash jump, either.

***
Further, it's established that you need normal engines to be able to actually do a subspace jump. The whole deal with the Yangtze doesn't make sense, then, when the stated reason it couldn't jump was that it's engines were completely down, beyond quick repair, and thus had no motive power to actually use to enter/traverse subspace. The Yangtze then promptly turns around and charges the Imperieuse, engines seemingly working just fine. Its captain confirms that when she orders the maneuver. So unless I misunderstood the dialogue after hearing it twice, the Yangtze couldn't jump because it's engines were totally down, but it then used its engines to turn around and charge a destroyer, without any known or implied consequence to the engines. Erm...what? Did I miss something?


1) Steele's been established as setting contingency plans for most situations.  Since he knew exactly where he was jumping, I don't have much problem believing he had an exit jump solution calculated as well.  That data could have been fed to him by one of the three AWACS that are there earlier, or the Atreus' nav computers could just be that good.  The Atreus is as state-of-the-art as ships get.  That the GTVA has a greater mastery of subspace travel than the UEF isn't unreasonable.  Just look at how many misjumps UEF ships make compared to GTVA ones (Vilnius and Akula.  I don't think the Tevs make any).

2) The Yangtze doesn't do much more than turn around.  The actual line is that they lost magnetic confinement on tokamaks 3 and 4.  Presumably, the other two can't provide enough thrust to make a jump, so they turned around so they'd at least get to look death in the face.  I don't think Kyrematen expected to get anywhere close to the Imperieuse.

 
Re: Important: Have SOME consistency with jump drives/frequency/crash jumps!
Quote
Additionally, it seems that intersystem jump drives are separate from intrasystem ones, to the point where it seems that you can't use an intersystem jump drive for an intrasystem jump. There are many possible explanations for that, but I don't think we need to go into it.

Somewhat contradicted by FS1 canon. There, fighters were retrofitted with intrasystem drives without losing flight characteristics and without losing intersystem jump capability, hinting that the replacement was a drop-in replacement that came with additional capabilities.
On the other hand, the NTCv Sevrin arrives in "Love the Treason..." via an intersystem jump, and then leaves via an intrasystem jump 27 seconds after arriving. Either intersystem and intrasystem subspace drives are independent of one another, or the NTF developed subspace drives that outpace anything the GTVA has come up with in the 20 years since. :p

EDIT: Or maybe the subspace drives are only actually doing any work at the start of the jump, and the Sevrin was recharging its drives while coasting through the jump corridor.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 03:04:41 pm by LordPomposity »

 

Offline The E

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Re: Important: Have SOME consistency with jump drives/frequency/crash jumps!
Removed, because Battuta is a meanie.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 03:50:05 pm by The E »
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Important: Have SOME consistency with jump drives/frequency/crash jumps!
FreeSpace 2 didn't put as much thought into the rules as we have. I personally disagree with The_E - I don't think it would be possible to jump again until without some charge time - but that's why forum comments aren't canonical.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Important: Have SOME consistency with jump drives/frequency/crash jumps!
FreeSpace 2 didn't put as much thought into the rules as we have.

FreeSpace 2 is the rules. It got published by Interplay and such, y'know.
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Offline -Norbert-

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Re: Important: Have SOME consistency with jump drives/frequency/crash jumps!
Gravity affects lighter objects more than heavier ones when inertia comes into play, and ships still need their normal engines to travel through subspace, so there's definite inertia there.
1) Erm... remember the Lucifer? That one certainly didn't use it's sublight engines inside subspace and still managed to get all the way to Sol. Or the wreckage of the Bastion that got sucked into the jump-point, after the ship exploded?

2) It's more likely that not the ships inside subspace, but the subspace tunnel itself is affected by the gravity. Otherwise fighters that travel with a destroyer would come out at another place than the destroyer itself, which just doesn't happen. If ships go into the same tunnel entrance, everyone will come out of the same exit too. Since a subspace tunnel itself has no matter as far as I know, it's impossible to tell wether broader tunnels are effected stronger by gravity than tighter ones.

3) Subspace is a different dimension that at the very least bends the rules of physics of our reality (if not outright breaking them).
A ship that has a top speed of 30 km/h can somehow suddenly fly several times lightspeed. Does that sound like the normal rules of physics to you, even disregarding that FTL travel is impossible in reality (except for some subatomic particles maybe)?

 
Re: Important: Have SOME consistency with jump drives/frequency/crash jumps!
Gravity affects lighter objects more than heavier ones when inertia comes into play, and ships still need their normal engines to travel through subspace, so there's definite inertia there.
1) Erm... remember the Lucifer? That one certainly didn't use it's sublight engines inside subspace and still managed to get all the way to Sol. Or the wreckage of the Bastion that got sucked into the jump-point, after the ship exploded?
There's some interaction between normal engines and subspace drives, as ships can't make subspace jumps if you shoot out their engine subsystems. They don't seem to need their normal engines to finish an intersystem jump once they've started one, but there's no saying whether that's true for intrasystem jumps (since you're making your own path through subspace rather than using an existing one).
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 04:03:39 pm by LordPomposity »

 

Offline -Norbert-

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Re: Important: Have SOME consistency with jump drives/frequency/crash jumps!
That's more like a gameplay/modeling convenience matter than in-universe ship-design matter I think.

After all the ships are completely blind once you destroy the single sensor subsystem, even when they have antennae and dishes strewn all over the ship.

  

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Re: Important: Have SOME consistency with jump drives/frequency/crash jumps!
That's more like a gameplay/modeling convenience matter than in-universe ship-design matter I think.

After all the ships are completely blind once you destroy the single sensor subsystem, even when they have antennae and dishes strewn all over the ship.

No but if you kill the control systems it matters not how many antennas and dishes you have they are still going to be useless.  While logically there would be redundancies for these control systems (at least on larger ships anyhow) FS1/2 often overlooks this for whatever reason.

Food for thought on the subject of intra/inter system jumps, they probably run of the same navigation and/or power systems, especially if they are both power hungry systems like we think either way if this is the case then the system will need resetting before the ship can jump again.  Also FS techroom speaks of resonating the hull to subspace frequencies, does this resonance need to dissipate to a certain degree before the process can be started again?
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