[Sushi]

KOTOR2 was kind of crappy, but not because of the moral ambiguity. That was the good part.

[MR_T3D]

KOTOR2 was kind of crappy, but not because of the moral ambiguity. That was the good part.

well yeah, It was the bit where it wasn't finished that made it suck.
and you could argue that the gameplay/visuals were awfully similar to KOTOR1

[Hades]

KOTOR2 was kind of crappy, but not because of the moral ambiguity. That was the good part.

well yeah, It was the bit where it wasn't finished that made it suck.
and you could argue that the gameplay/visuals were awfully similar to KOTOR1

the visuals were actually worse, in comparison with KOTOR1, I think.

[NGTM-1R]

The only good work done in Star Wars is the stuff that tries to question the binary of the setting. KOTOR II, Shatterpoint, Traitor.

So the other Zahn books don't count? Allegiance, Spectre of the Past/Vision of the Future?

Don't try to sell me on these as examining shades of gray vis-a-vis the Force, because they don't. They do plenty of examinations of shades of gray, but they set out the case that for a Jedi things are black or white very strongly as well. Different standards for those with different abilities. Other books would suggest that the same standards apply to all regardless of differing abilities.

It's a useful and valid literary tool is what I am saying and it is one most people are familiar with and can help the reader/viewer/gamer feel empathy for the situation.

That's just blathering. It's only useful and valid if the setting allows for it. And the setting does not.

Shades of gray would be what finally brings peace to the Star Wars galaxy.  The Good vs Evil thing has only led to a constant seesaw between tight wad Jedi, to uppity and stupid  to keep the Sith and check and ham fisted Sith to busy being evil jackasses to hold onto power once they've got it.  Whole galaxy is constantly embroiled in war over because neither side can rule properly.

I hate to point it out, but you're not seeing the forest for the trees. Like the ten thousand years of the Old Republic or the period after Vision of the Future but before the Vong came along. Working long-term systems have existed, and your point is without evidence.

Seriously if ever a group of realpolitik force users came around, it'd be the best thing for the Galaxy far far away.

Force don't work that way.

[General Battuta]

The only good work done in Star Wars is the stuff that tries to question the binary of the setting. KOTOR II, Shatterpoint, Traitor.

So the other Zahn books don't count? Allegiance, Spectre of the Past/Vision of the Future?

Don't try to sell me on these as examining shades of gray vis-a-vis the Force, because they don't. They do plenty of examinations of shades of gray, but they set out the case that for a Jedi things are black or white very strongly as well. Different standards for those with different abilities. Other books would suggest that the same standards apply to all regardless of differing abilities.

I liked Zahn when I was younger but I'm not sure I would be as into his work now (although I've spent time working with the man in person and he is incredibly friendly and fun). I don't think they're as good as Stover's stuff; for all their structural elegance they don't always challenge. I did, however, admire his commitment to spackling away the stupid stuff in both the movies and EU.

Force don't work that way.

Pff. The Force is just an ability. Morality is brought to the table by the wielder. The Potentium is truth.

[headdie]

It's a useful and valid literary tool is what I am saying and it is one most people are familiar with and can help the reader/viewer/gamer feel empathy for the situation.

That's just blathering. It's only useful and valid if the setting allows for it. And the setting does not.

Proper quoting ftw. --Jeff Vader

Wtf???? The Jedi are about doing what is best for the galaxy hence the Good in good vs evil and the Sith are about what is best for them selves which though not strictly speaking evil in it self often ends in evil results some where down the line.  Then you have the characters in the middle many of which as with real life are a mix of good and evil so how is shades of grey not valid in the star wars setting?

And before you go on about Palpatine and Anakin working to create order in the galaxy, that is a goal they wanted purely for themselves thus selfish, in Palpatine’s case he also wanted power for powers sake.

[StarSlayer]

Shades of gray would be what finally brings peace to the Star Wars galaxy.  The Good vs Evil thing has only led to a constant seesaw between tight wad Jedi, to uppity and stupid  to keep the Sith and check and ham fisted Sith to busy being evil jackasses to hold onto power once they've got it.  Whole galaxy is constantly embroiled in war over because neither side can rule properly.

I hate to point it out, but you're not seeing the forest for the trees. Like the ten thousand years of the Old Republic or the period after Vision of the Future but before the Vong came along. Working long-term systems have existed, and your point is without evidence.

I dunno seems to me KOTOR, KOTOR II, the new BioWare MMO, about half a dozen comics seem to predominantly feature the Sith nearly punching out the Old Republic and/or driving the Jedi to the brink of extinction.  Plus what did they decide to shoe horn in right after the Vong?  Yet another Sith take over when Jacen falls to the Dark Side (seriously how much **** do they have to throw at the Skywalker/Solo clan? Leave those poor people alone they've done their bit).  Plus if I'm not mistaken the future setting comics with Luke's descendant again feature yet another Sith take over. 

Seems SW history is rife with the Jedi being caught with their thumb up their ass by the Sith then eventually being able to push them back because Sith are evil jack asses who can't hold onto power.

Now granted its over the span of thousands of years, but still its the same basic thing over and over.

[Scotty]

Plus if I'm not mistaken the future setting comics with Luke's descendant again feature yet another Sith take over. 

Seems SW history is rife with the Jedi being caught with their thumb up their ass by the Sith then eventually being able to push them back because Sith are evil jack asses who can't hold onto power.

Only real difference is that the Jedi aren't really caught with their thumb up their ass so much as their temple is leveled by superior firepower, etc.

It's actually a fun read, even if it isn't particularly literary gold.

[Pred the Penguin]

I do believe the whole point of Star Wars is Jedi vs Sith, Good vs Bad, Light vs Dark.

[Angelus]

I do believe the whole point of Star Wars is Jedi vs Sith, Good vs Bad, Light vs Dark.

This sums it up. 

[Pred the Penguin]

Why the hell did half of this turn into a discussion about Star Wars.
I'm guessing it has something to do with gaming hell...

[swashmebuckle]

I liked Zahn when I was younger but I'm not sure I would be as into his work now (although I've spent time working with the man in person and he is incredibly friendly and fun). I don't think they're as good as Stover's stuff; for all their structural elegance they don't always challenge. I did, however, admire his commitment to spackling away the stupid stuff in both the movies and EU.

I actually just reread the Zahn and Stackpole books while writing the scripts for FotG's minicampaigns.  Found them to be fun adventure stories and well paced, but yeah, they didn't knock me out or anything.  That's really cool that you've worked with Zahn though!

I tend to think SW is at its best when it sticks close to its mythic roots and paints in big, iconic strokes.  Its power and depth of feeling come from our associations with the story's primal underpinnings, not whether or not this and such is the best way to think about the made-up details of how its universe works.  If you want nuanced examinations of morality or how an intergalactic society would function or whatever, read something by a Russian--when Star Wars ****in' rocks is when you're plunging through the trench desperately trying to "let go" and guide your "torpedoes" into the port while your dark father is running up from behind trying to murder you.  That's gotta be the most brilliant scenario for a fantasy film climax that has ever made money.  What's amazing is how the prequels could get so much wrong with what is arguably a more compelling basic premise.

Anyway, sorry to re-derail.  I dunno about hell, but gaming heaven is Mario Kart 64 on a couch with three scantily clad college girls.  Actually, that's probably normal heaven too.