Author Topic: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi  (Read 103370 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Det. Bullock

  • 29
  • Madman in a box.
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Yeah, Holdo felt like something of a throwaway character.  We were told about her being Leia's trusted subordinate more than we actually got to see it.  Ackbar deserved some of that screentime.
The voice actor died before production began, I guess Johnson didn't want to recast the role.
"I pity the poor shades confined to the euclidean prison that is sanity." - Grant Morrison
"People assume  that time is a strict progression of cause to effect,  but *actually*  from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more  like a big ball  of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff." - The Doctor

 

Offline jr2

  • The Mail Man
  • 212
  • It's prounounced jayartoo 0x6A7232
    • Steam
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
VA for who, Ackbar?  Could have just shown his ship getting owned with broken comms or something.

 

Offline Scotty

  • 1.21 gigawatts!
  • 211
  • Guns, guns, guns.
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Yeah, Holdo felt like something of a throwaway character.  We were told about her being Leia's trusted subordinate more than we actually got to see it.  Ackbar deserved some of that screentime.

Nah, not really.  Ackbar's entire claim to fame is a meme, endlessly repeated.  His inclusion as major character would have been fan-service for the sake of fan-service.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

  • Makes General Discussion Make Sense.
  • Global Moderator
  • 210
  • Keyboard > Pen > Sword
    • Twitter
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Random shower thought: near the start of the film, Luke scoffs at Rey asking him for help, wondering if he's supposed to stand in front of the entire First Order waving a lightsaber at them.  So then where does he find himself in the end? Yep. :D

Damn, I forgot about that.  Well played Rian Johnson, well played.

On the subject of Holdo, I was rather sad she got killed off; seemed like a very interesting character, and in retrospect with Fisher's death it would have been much more epic had it been Leia who pulled off the hyperspace Moby Dick move.  Alas, it's not to be.
"In the beginning, the Universe was created.  This made a lot of people very angry and has widely been regarded as a bad move."  [Douglas Adams]

 

Offline Mongoose

  • Rikki-Tikki-Tavi
  • Global Moderator
  • 212
  • This brain for rent.
    • Minecraft
    • Steam
    • Something
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I've run into one or two other people who absolutely hated the movie, and I genuinely cannot fathom where they're coming from.  It's fascinating.

 

Offline The E

  • He's Ebeneezer Goode
  • 213
  • Nothing personal, just tech support.
    • Steam
    • Twitter
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Saw the film. Loved it. Best Star Wars film after Rogue One, messy editing and mostly extraneous sequences aside. I'm especially impressed with the way this film managed to end on the same note as Empire did without at any point feeling like an Empire retread.

Also, the way Rian Johnson shat all over JJ Abrams' Mystery Box makes me an instant fan.

(Also, that single sequence where the Supremacy gets taken out by a Mon Cal cruiser FTL'ing through it and its fleet is the most beautiful CGI carnage sequence I've seen in years.)
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 03:49:58 am by The E »
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
To be clear, Mark's statements were clipped to sound as if he was criticizing his role. Which was completely false, he loved the end result. Typical social media.

 

Offline jr2

  • The Mail Man
  • 212
  • It's prounounced jayartoo 0x6A7232
    • Steam
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Saw the film. Loved it. Best Star Wars film after Rogue One, messy editing and mostly extraneous sequences aside. I'm especially impressed with the way this film managed to end on the same note as Empire did without at any point feeling like an Empire retread.

Also, the way Rian Johnson shat all over JJ Abrams' Mystery Box makes me an instant fan.

(Also, that single sequence where the Supremacy gets taken out by a Mon Cal cruiser FTL'ing through it and its fleet is the most beautiful CGI carnage sequence I've seen in years.)


Seemed to me they pulled a page from the anime book there with that effect sequence (blinding flash, clean, almost cartoony slice as the big bad gets cleaved neatly in two, repeat shot a few times from different angles or distances for effect).  Anyone else think so?

 

Offline Spoon

  • 212
  • ヾ(´︶`♡)ノ
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I've run into one or two other people who absolutely hated the movie, and I genuinely cannot fathom where they're coming from.  It's fascinating.
Because when you spend 5 minutes thinking about the film, it's just absolutely riddled with plotholes and really, really dumb stuff.

I went walking out of the theater feeling kind of miffed and with a feeling of "I really didn't like that movie" to spending some more time thinking about it and going "yeah, I think really really dislike this movie". 
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline jr2

  • The Mail Man
  • 212
  • It's prounounced jayartoo 0x6A7232
    • Steam
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
A lot of us don't have high expectations of Hollywood.  We base whether we like a movie or not on whether the storyline behind it was good, not if the execution was good.  Because we don't expect the execution to be good, because Hollywood sucks.

 

Offline The E

  • He's Ebeneezer Goode
  • 213
  • Nothing personal, just tech support.
    • Steam
    • Twitter
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Because when you spend 5 minutes thinking about the film, it's just absolutely riddled with plotholes and really, really dumb stuff.

I spent a couple hours thinking about it and I have to conclude that what you just said is wrong. I'm not saying that the movie is perfect (because no movie is), but "absolutely riddled with plot holes and really dumb stuff"? No. Not hardly.

(As an aside: I love how the middle part of a trilogy is "riddled with plotholes" when we're just in the middle of some of these plot threads.)
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 11:55:22 am by The E »
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Aesaar

  • 210
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Why didn't the Star Destroyers right next to the dreadnought at the start of the movie shoot down the bombers?  Why bother showing a fleet at all if you're going to treat ships as though they were alone?


Admiral Holdo was a ****ing idiot. 

"Our actual leader got taken out by an enemy attack, morale is low, we keep losing ships, and no one has any idea what the plan is.  Clearly, when my CAG makes these concerns known to me like a good officer should, the way forward is to tell him to **** off, rather than take him aside and explain things."

Poe shouldn't have taken matters into his own hands, but Holdo a terrible leader.  Literally the first thing Leia does when Poe wakes up is explain the plan.


Also, when a villain chooses not to execute prisoners in a straightforward, efficient manner, but instead chooes some silly mthod that'll take longer, it eliminates any and all tension, and it makes the villain in question look like a moron.

Phasma is a moron.  Probably intentional, given her track record of utter failure.  I can't take her seriously.


Unrelated: it's interesting to me how much Star Wars is anti-democracy.  Or maybe anti-government.  The old Republic bureaucracy and division kept it completely incapable of accomplishing anything even as its civil institutions were co-opted from within and one of its member worlds was under occupation.  Until they voted in a dictator.

The New Republic was seemingly completely unable or unwilling to recognize or deal with an existential threat.

It's in rather stark contrast to the Empire and the First Order.  Especially the First Order, which recovered from a significant blow at the end of TFA only to actually win the war.

Basically, in Star Wars, government is either ineffective or tyrannical.  It's strange because it isn't the focus of the movies, but its a thread that remains very consistent through all of them.


Nah, not really.  Ackbar's entire claim to fame is a meme, endlessly repeated.  His inclusion as major character would have been fan-service for the sake of fan-service.
In universe, Ackbar's claim to fame is winning the Battle of Endor despite overwhelming odds.  Unlike whatever victory Holdo won, that's a battle we actually got to see, making his competence much less of an informed characteristic.  Show don't tell and all that.  Holdo is a character they did not need.  Yes, maybe it's a bit of fan-service, but it absolutely would have a purpose.  An admiral-type was needed.  Ackbar serves fine, and was far more known to the audience, adding an emotional impact to his sacrifice.  I didn't care when Holdo died because the only thing I ever saw her do is **** the situation up by deciding subordinates did not need to be kept informed.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 06:04:08 pm by Aesaar »

 

Offline The E

  • He's Ebeneezer Goode
  • 213
  • Nothing personal, just tech support.
    • Steam
    • Twitter
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Why didn't the Star Destroyers right next to the dreadnought at the start of the movie shoot down the bombers?  Why bother showing a fleet at all if you're going to treat ships as though they were alone?

Why didn't the Empire launch fighters when they established the blockade around Hoth? Why bother showing that Star Destroyers carry TIEs when they're only going to be treated as big dumb battleships?

This is CinemaSins level of bad film criticism. Please get beyond it.

Quote
Admiral Holdo was a ****ing idiot. 

"Our actual leader got taken out by an enemy attack, morale is low, we keep losing ships, and no one has any idea what the plan is.  Clearly, when my CAG makes these concerns known to me like a good officer should, the way forward is to tell him to **** off, rather than take him aside and explain things."

Poe shouldn't have taken matters into his own hands, but Holdo a terrible leader.  Literally the first thing Leia does when Poe wakes up is explain the plan.

A good officer which just got demoted for disobeying a direct order and in the process losing irreplaceable assets for a minor victory.
Poe is not as important as he thinks he is, basically.

Quote
Also, filmmakers need to learn that when a villain chooses not to execute prisoners in a straightforward, efficient manner, but instead chooes some silly mthod that'll take longer, it eliminates any and all tension, and it makes the villain in question look like a moron.

And amateur film critics need to learn that making villains 100% effective and pragmatic is not always the correct narrative choice.

Quote
Phasma is a moron.

And Hux is a buffoon. So?

Quote
Unrelated: it's interesting to me how much Star Wars is anti-democracy.  Or maybe anti-government.  The old Republic bureaucracy and division kept it completely incapable of accomplishing anything even as its civil institutions were co-opted from within and one of its member worlds was under occupation.  Until they voted in a dictator.

The New Republic was seemingly completely unable or unwilling to recognize or deal with an existential threat.

It's in rather stark contrast to the Empire and the First Order.  Especially the First Order, which recovered from a significant blow at the end of TFA only to actually win the war.

Basically, in Star Wars, government is either ineffective or tyrannical.  It's strange because it isn't the focus of the movies, but its a thread that remains very consistent through all of them.

I think Battuta talked about this once, where any depiction of a fanatical tyrannical regime cannot help but be enticing to at least some portion of the viewership.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Aesaar

  • 210
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
A good officer which just got demoted for disobeying a direct order and in the process losing irreplaceable assets for a minor victory.
Poe is not as important as he thinks he is, basically.

Has nothing to do with Poe and everything to do with keeping your chain of command aware of your intent and making sure morale doesn't tank completely.  This is an integral part of command.  She completely fails to do either, keeping everything to herself, and she lost control of her subordinates because of it.

Yeah, Poe ****ed up.  Repeatedly.  She ****ed up more.

I actually went into this movie expecting critics of Holdo to just be pissy because she's a woman, but no.  She's just not a good leader.

Quote
And amateur film critics need to learn that making villains 100% effective and pragmatic is not always the correct narrative choice.
Hard to take her seriously when she ****s up every time she appears.


Quote
And Hux is a buffoon. So?
Hux actually doesn't do too badly in this movie.  He lets Poe stall him at the start of the movie.  Beyond that, he doesn't **** up very much this time. 

Quote
I think Battuta talked about this once, where any depiction of a fanatical tyrannical regime cannot help but be enticing to at least some portion of the viewership.
Maybe if Star Wars did a better job of showing effective democratic government, it wouldn't look like there are no effective democratic governments in Star Wars.  The EU novels didn't have an issue doing that, and the movies don't have an issue with showing effective tyrannical government either.  Democracies have gotten the short end every time.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 01:31:24 pm by Aesaar »

 

Offline The E

  • He's Ebeneezer Goode
  • 213
  • Nothing personal, just tech support.
    • Steam
    • Twitter
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
A good officer which just got demoted for disobeying a direct order and in the process losing irreplaceable assets for a minor victory.
Poe is not as important as he thinks he is, basically.

Has nothing to do with Poe and everything to do with keeping your chain of command aware of your intent and making sure morale doesn't tank completely.  This is an integral part of command.  She completely fails to do either, keeping everything to herself, and she lost control of her subordinates because of it.

Yeah, Poe ****ed up.  She ****ed up more.

But, did she?

The film follows Poe's POV in his scenes. Poe, who has been demoted, is not part of the command crew at that moment, and has thus no need to know the plans, is furious that said plans haven't been shared with him. He storms on the bridge, all but screaming "What do you intend to DO?" when Holdo's plan is already being executed as they speak. She obviously explained it to someone, just not Poe.

You're looking at these scenes and you are, naturally, siding with Poe since he's the dashing hero we're supposed to like. But he's very deeply wrong in his little arc here, unwilling to make the sacrifice that Holdo is making. By the same token, you are wrong in your assessment of her character, because all we know of her is stuff Poe knows and thinks of her. I would make a point here about a commanding officer not needing to be liked by her subordinates, only respected and obeyed, and Poe fails spectacularly here.

Quote
Quote
And Hux is a buffoon. So?
Hux actually doesn't do too badly in this movie.  He lets Poe stall him at the start of the movie.  Beyond that, he doesn't **** up very much.

Then he gets thrown around by Kylo Ren, gets some hard derision from Snoke once he's out of earshot, loses a dreadnought because he's too busy being prank called by a rebel pilot....
He's basically the Richard-Spencer-esque laughing stock of the First Order command team.

Quote
I think Battuta talked about this once, where any depiction of a fanatical tyrannical regime cannot help but be enticing to at least some portion of the viewership.
Maybe if Star Wars did a better job of showing effective democratic government, it wouldn't look like there are no effective democratic governments in Star Wars.  The EU novels didn't have an issue with it, nor do the movies have an issue with showing effective tyrannical government.
[/quote]

How do you show an effective democracy in this context, where all the main hero figures are renegades and lone hero types or magical space cops and the big democratic government is actually more like a supersized version of the UN? We never see "Government" in the sense that we understand the word; We never get to know what the average planetary government is like, because it's really not important to Star Wars as a whole.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Aesaar

  • 210
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Quote
Why didn't the Empire launch fighters when they established the blockade around Hoth? Why bother showing that Star Destroyers carry TIEs when they're only going to be treated as big dumb battleships?

This is CinemaSins level of bad film criticism. Please get beyond it.

I must have missed the part of ESB where swarms of TIE fighters do nothing but stare at the rebel transports as they flee (which is exactly what was shown with the First Order Star Destroyers and the rebel bombers in TLJ's opening battle).  Displaying power and then showing that power not being utilized when it obviously can be is absolutely a legitimate gripe. 

And IIRC, OT TIE fighters are never shown to be atmosphere-capable, which explains why they're not in the ground battle on Hoth.  No Star Destroyer uses fighters very much in either ANH or ESB, which actually leads me to believe that ISDs either don't all carry fighters or just don't launch them much.  First Order Star Destroyers, however, do have point defense weapons because it's one of the first things we see in TFA.  Not maintaining established capabilities is a legitimate criticism.  That you don't care doesn't change this.

To quote SF Debris: "I don't care if you show a phaser shoot from a torpedo bay, but I do care if you start beaming through shields with no explanation."  Same principle here.  Don't show a ship doing something without issue and then later show it not being able to do that thing with zero explanation.


But, did she?

The film follows Poe's POV in his scenes. Poe, who has been demoted, is not part of the command crew at that moment, and has thus no need to know the plans, is furious that said plans haven't been shared with him. He storms on the bridge, all but screaming "What do you intend to DO?" when Holdo's plan is already being executed as they speak. She obviously explained it to someone, just not Poe.

You're looking at these scenes and you are, naturally, siding with Poe since he's the dashing hero we're supposed to like. But he's very deeply wrong in his little arc here, unwilling to make the sacrifice that Holdo is making. By the same token, you are wrong in your assessment of her character, because all we know of her is stuff Poe knows and thinks of her. I would make a point here about a commanding officer not needing to be liked by her subordinates, only respected and obeyed, and Poe fails spectacularly here.

To be clear, I don't like Poe at all, and I think he was an idiot to go off the rails in defiance of his orders, whether he thought them appropriate or not.  Holdo's issue is that she decided she needed to show Poe she had a bigger dick, despite knowing full well he was someone willing to go off the rails in defiance of his orders (because he literally just did it).  What she should have done is swallow her pride and tell him what she intends, because why the **** not?  I've seen no indication he isn't still the ranking pilot on the Raddus, which makes her his immediate superior.  But no, she tells him to **** off.  She dismissed the impulsive hotshot out of hand, and then is surprised that the impulsive hotshot did something without her approval.  That decision leads directly to most of the transports getting shot down.  Her pride did that.  An officer who can't maintain control of his or her subordinates is at the very least a bad leader.  Mutinies don't usually happen when there's good leadership.

This isn't a problem with the movie or the writing, though.  It's a perfectly believable ****-up.

Quote
Then he gets thrown around by Kylo Ren, gets some hard derision from Snoke once he's out of earshot, loses a dreadnought because he's too busy being prank called by a rebel pilot....
He's basically the Richard-Spencer-esque laughing stock of the First Order command team.
Sure, but out of all the First Order commanders, he's also the least stupid.  Kylo Ren's having a serious emotional breakdown, and Phasma can't do anything right.  I will say that the First Order's panoply of laughably incompentent commanders is an issue both TLJ and TFA have.  Weak villains cheapen every one of the heroes' victories.  I don't find the First Order intimidating.  I find them bumbling and pathetic, even when they win.  They're not even in the same league as the Empire was in the OT.


Somewhat related: I thought Kylo Ren, Rey, and Luke's interaction in this movie was very, very good.  I found Rey super boring in TFA, but quite liked her this time around.  Every Luke scene was absolutely excellent.

Quote
How do you show an effective democracy in this context, where all the main hero figures are renegades and lone hero types or magical space cops and the big democratic government is actually more like a supersized version of the UN? We never see "Government" in the sense that we understand the word; We never get to know what the average planetary government is like, because it's really not important to Star Wars as a whole.
Maybe don't establish in your opening crawls that the current democratic government can't govern.  The Phantom Menace's second half was almost entirely about showing how useless the pre-Palpatine Republic was.  In TFA's case, the Resistance itself says something about the New Republic's ability to defend itself.  Why hasn't its military taken action?  Why is an independent Not-Rebel Alliance all that's standing between a resurgent Empire and the Republic?  The movies go out of their way to show the two democracies we know of aren't actually doing a good job.  Seems to me they could do the opposite just as easily.  The now-Legends EU novels managed it just fine.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 05:57:41 pm by Aesaar »

 

Offline Spoon

  • 212
  • ヾ(´︶`♡)ノ
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
This is CinemaSins level of bad film criticism. Please get beyond it.
I spent a couple hours thinking about it and I have to conclude that what you just said is wrong. I'm not saying that the movie is perfect (because no movie is), but "absolutely riddled with plot holes and really dumb stuff"? No. Not hardly.

(As an aside: I love how the middle part of a trilogy is "riddled with plotholes" when we're just in the middle of some of these plot threads.)
Damn dude, really got me there. That's some high level debating skills right there. I'm wrong, movie is actually good. The critics just have to get beyond it.  :lol:
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline The E

  • He's Ebeneezer Goode
  • 213
  • Nothing personal, just tech support.
    • Steam
    • Twitter
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Spoon, if you want me to expend effort reacting to your writing, you should put effort into your posts first.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Spoon

  • 212
  • ヾ(´︶`♡)ノ
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Spend quite some time listening to nerds on the internet talking about the movie, most of which I agree with.
Red letter media has a 47 minute video talking about it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9hwGZFPSmw
Angry Joe did an hour long rant, not really a fan of his movie related stuff because he has his friends over and Joe just kind of talks over them most of the time, but the points they make are for the most part pretty spot on:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL5oCP0VIEI
This isn't a review or anything, just some washed up ex-starcraft 2 player talking about it with some friends for like two hours. They hit on most points that bothered me too over the course of it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNU_5og95fs
And one more 36 minute one for the road:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J08fHeAWWiU

Movie falls apart in so many ways when you actually turn your brain on.

Spoon, if you want me to expend effort reacting to your writing, you should put effort into your posts first.
The E, I don't want you to expend any effort into your writing, your opinion is wrong anyway. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 08:30:29 pm by Spoon »
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
My question is, "what was Leia's plan if Poe's bombing run didn't take out the dreadnought?" It was turning it's big ****-off gun on the command cruiser, right as it got exploded.