Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: z64555 on March 10, 2015, 10:50:35 pm
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BlackDove shared a link to the kickstarter on the #hard-light IRC, I thought a few people would be interested.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/descendentstudios/descent-underground (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/descendentstudios/descent-underground)
I'm stickying this topic temporarily to raise awareness. Ordinarily I wouldn't pull rank but this looks to be a fantastic project and is very much relevant to the origins of our own community too. Descent and FreeSpace have gone hand in hand, plus the developers involved in making this project really know their stuff. We owe this one our support. - Fineus
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But uh... can they do this? I mean, Interplay isn't exactly known for allowing this sort of stuff
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Didn't the last thing called "Descent" (https://www.facebook.com/preparefordescent) get pretty brutally stomped by the roving corpse of Interplay?
Just like... this... will... *researches so as to not stick foot in mouth*
http://www.interplay.com/about/article.php?id=81
This project looks like it's going to be a real, official Descent game...
EDIT: Or at least officially sanctioned Descent game.
EDIT 2: http://www.pcgamer.com/descent-underground-a-pc-classic-resurrected-1/
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Didn't the last thing called "Descent" (https://www.facebook.com/preparefordescent) get pretty brutally stomped by the roving corpse of Interplay?
Just like... this... will... *researches so as to not stick foot in mouth*
http://www.interplay.com/about/article.php?id=81
Well I'll be. It's a legit thing
This makes me hilariously giddy
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It seems that Interplay allows such projects if they get some license fees. The same that Games Workshop does with its Warhammer franchise...
Actually i do not like this course... i hope there will be no developer that have the idea to make a new freespace title... but i fear something like this in a near future :shaking:
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YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!
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"Collect loot"
"Level up"
oh..... oh GOD.
Descent, what have they DONE TO YOU?! :shaking:
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Where's the Pyro?
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it says on their website that they got permission from interplay to use the name.
also this apparently takes place before the other descent games, which is why we don't see the classic descent ship designs.
I'm worried that they are going to stray far from the classic feel of descent, but I think that Eric Peterson is someone who will listen to the community if enough people complain about "level up" and "collect loot". The game is only just beginning development.
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Honestly, I don't want another Descent game like the other Descent games. What I'd like to see are strives to modernize the Descent games as opposed to simply making a shinier version of something I've already played
The classic feel is generally speaking, in the 6DoF, claustrophobia inducing mineshafts, music and screeching noises from green cloaking bastards. Now, that is of course, my opinion and it'll differ from person to person, but I won't mind seeing new elements introduced to bring a more dynamic experience
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"Collect loot"
"Level up"
oh..... oh GOD.
Descent, what have they DONE TO YOU?! :shaking:
Pretty much my reaction. They're using the name "Descent", but it bears almost zero resemblance to Descent. :banghead:
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"Collect loot"
"Level up"
oh..... oh GOD.
Descent, what have they DONE TO YOU?! :shaking:
+1 to that. There's nothing "Descent" about this project except the name and 6DOF fighting.
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Yeah, I'm decidedly unexcited as well. It feels waaaaaay too much like the marketing setup for Star Citizen (which makes sense given the dev team), and that's an active turn-off for me.
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Okay, I've done some digging around, and have something that makes me tentatively look upon this more favorably:
They apparently only very recently got the license for the Descent trademark, so everything they've done up to this point was not-Descent, which explains why it looks and feels so different. Now that they're legally allowed to, the devs have hinted that they want to push the game into being actually part of the Descent universe.
This was a response to one fan who queried them regarding the singleplayer mode and whether virus-crazed mining robots would be involved:
Yes, and how stupid of us not to mention it on the first day...DOH !! There will be bots in the first iteration, but we have a bigger story based single player game on the rise of the PTMC and the material defenders - we are a prequel to the original, and we want to tell that story.
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I think I am still more interested in Sol Contingency (the first link in Scourge of Ages' post). It's a fan-made remake, who got a C&D from Interplay so they have been re-doing some of their assets, But they are still planning on moving forward, even with this officially licensed version on the way also.
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My interest in a project is inversely proportional to the number of exclamation marks used to pitch that project to me.
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Pfft, how can it be underground if they are blatantly advertising! They most defs just sold out and lost cred.
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Looks somewhat interesting. I'm think I'm more interested in the campaign than the multiplayer though.
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So I asked about the Pyro, and the message back mentioned there is a discussion on how to include it on the dev forum
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They say the genre is under representated.. which is trueish. For years the space sim and 6d0f people had nothing to go on, hence SCP. All of a sudden we will have too many games for the available clientile. Star citizen, elite dangerous, no mans sky, and now this one too... whats next?
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So I asked about the Pyro, and the message back mentioned there is a discussion on how to include it on the dev forum
1. Model Pyro
2. Place in game
3. ???
4. Profit
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It's surprising that the only people who can use the Pyro don't seem that bothered. If I'd seen a Pyro flying around in the trailer I don't think I could of stopped myself buying it!
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It's early days (they only recently acquired the Descent license) - And this is probably the only chance we'll ever see another official Descent title. And a triple-A one at that. That alone is worth backing.
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Personally, I'd rather see no Descent title than a bad Descent title, but as you say, it's the early stages, they just got the license, and they've indicated that they do intend to bring this into the original Descent universe, so let's wait and see...
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It's hard to say if it's *any* kind of Descent yet, bad or good. They were workin on this 6DOF game and got approached by Interplay to make it into Descent. So we'll just have to wait and see.
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If I could update folks here a little, I've had my finger on the pulse of this one for the last few days...
The Developers are active over on the official forums there and are being very receptive to community feedback and opinion.
A lot of people are asking for some close adherence to the original Descent Universe and that it wouldn't be a proper Descent title if they didn't. I get the impression this is being very much understood. Some info...
- The game is a prequel, set before the events of the first Descent title.
- The game will reference the original Descent universe and whilst it won't feature the Descent pyro immediately - they will in all likelihood be adding it AND some new designs that pay homage / tell the story of how the Pyro ship came to be.
- There will also be other references to the universe and they're looking very closely at maintaining the look, feel, physics and gameplay of the Descent titles to date.
I am very excited about this one.
If they continue to listen and take things in that direction - I'm confident we'll be looking at an awesome trip down memory lane with some brand new features and engine in place too.
I'd urge anyone on the fence on this one to get involved at this early stage. They're not asking much for a digital copy of the finished product but it simply won't happen if people don't get involved now.
If the project doesn't take off then Interplay may never release the Descent rights again.
I'm backing, I think it'll be worth it.
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If the project doesn't take off then Interplay may never release the Descent rights again.
This is a legitimate concern.
I've backed it. Hoping it succeeds.
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I hope you'll excuse me if "You better back this or you're never getting another chance" doesn't endear me to Interplay enough to actually want to back it. Blatant cash grab, **** them I'll enjoy my old Descent games.
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That, or Sol Contingency, or (the sadly all-but-dead) Retrovirus, or one or two other things floating around out there. I'll still ponder backing it, but it's definitely not an automatic for me.
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Backed...
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Backed.
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If the project doesn't take off then Interplay may never release the Descent rights again.
And i do not know, what is bad about this... because we have already at least two good games, there are also still available. Only two, because there are many, that do not like Descent 3 because of its overworld flying.
And afaik one of its strech-goals says, that this game want to go also into space. Sounds further away from "Descent" to me.
Sometimes it is better to keep things dead... so you can be sure that there is nobody who can further deface the series ^^.
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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/descendentstudios/descent-underground/posts
Hello Descendents!
THANK YOU ALL!
We now have more than 3,000 backers and are off to a rollicking start.
There have been some very passionate discussions on both Kickstarter and our forums and that kind of passion is what is going to help us make our goal and blow right through it.
There were a lot of requests for the iconic ship the Pyro-GX.
As we are a prequel to the original, it did not make a lot of sense for us to have that ship at the beginning but rather have a precursor or ancestor to it, and we had planned to bring that in at a later date.
However, we heard your call and we put it to the community to vote as to how you wanted us to handle the release of the new ship - called the Torch KS (we may change that and let folks pick a name, but that is the working title for now). Here is one of the early concept versions of it, there will be a lot of changes coming up, but we wanted to show you the first pass.
(https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/003/451/860/c2fe0f11fb13d5427e3224a4300a8466_original.jpg?v=1426552418&w=700&h=&fit=max&auto=format&q=92&s=fdad6f19d7ab8b1517be33186898ce1d)
As the community voted overwhelmingly to add this as a stretch goal, we thought it was only right that it becomes a community event.
The Torch KS will be FREE to all backers who bought a game package during the campaign when our Kickstarter total reaches $650k.
Yep, that is right, it will be FREE to all those that backed for the game packages during the campaign.
However, it is an EXCLUSIVE BACKER ONLY ship, that will NOT be available after the campaign is over, there might be future iterations for late comers to acquire either through game play or purchase, but this particular version will be gone forever once the Kickstarter campaign is over.
People will know that when you are flying the Torch KS that you were one of the brave souls that made this all possible.
Help us spread the word, by sharing our updates and Kickstarter page as well as emailing gaming buddies so we can all enjoy the exciting arcade style game play of the original Descent series, and so much more with Descent Underground.
Thank you,
WM
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Descent, what have they DONE TO YOU?! :shaking:
More seriously, it might look good if it didn't have such a hideous paint job. I mean I know this is like super early concept art, but damn.
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I'm pretty sore they are making it backer only. First of all, as much as I appreciate backers, I never liked exclusives in the first place, but THE iconic ship (or at least a variant) should be an integral part of the game. It's a major part of the franchise's identity.
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The way the lights are positioned in it kind of make me think of the one on the left:
(http://www.explore-science-fiction-movies.com/images/fix-its-batteries-not-included-nest.jpg)
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The way the lights are positioned in it kind of make me think of the one on the left:
(http://www.explore-science-fiction-movies.com/images/fix-its-batteries-not-included-nest.jpg)
Holy cats, is that "Batteries Not Included"???
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I'm pretty sore they are making it backer only. First of all, as much as I appreciate backers, I never liked exclusives in the first place, but THE iconic ship (or at least a variant) should be an integral part of the game. It's a major part of the franchise's identity.
They said they might make another variant available either through pay or in-game unlock, but they wanted some sort of identifier for backers in-game.
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Holy cats, is that "Batteries Not Included"???
Yup. Google image search is amazing. :D
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Those that are not convinced that one of the goals is to make a game that deserves "Descent" in the title read should read this wall of text (it's really worth it):
http://descendentstudios.com/community/topic/1069-to-kali-skeptics-why-im-a-believer/?hl=drakona
This post is written by a Descent veteran, and there are more of those guys that already support the project (e.g. Jediluke, google his name). Enjoy!!
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Well, I've been sitting on the fence about DU for ages, for precisely the reasons outlined in that post. Consider me convinced. Backed.
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I'm going to jump on the "Backed" train as well.
Simply because, good or bad, success or failure, the market only goes where there is interest.
If you'd rather no game than a "meh" game and said "meh" game doesn't manage any sort of fruition, then nobody is going to bother with that "better" game.
And if it's NOT a better game and still just ends up being "meh"? Well, at least it'll be out there, proving that people want something like it, paving the way for that better game.
And nobody says this means you HAVE to back it. Hell, we're not even saying it has to be your <ration of> of <beverage>.
But at least can some of the negativity and let promotion and support (for at least the idea and the desire) make this a (hopeful) win.
I am a bit worried that I didn't hear about this until only 11 days left. I've seen some projects hit a win with even less time to spare, but they are only half-way there right now.
Despite that, backed it anyway.
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Damn, I'm so torn, on one hand I really want another descent game, but I also don't really want to support IP.
I'll have to mull this over for a bit
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Those that are not convinced that one of the goals is to make a game that deserves "Descent" in the title read should read this wall of text (it's really worth it):
http://descendentstudios.com/community/topic/1069-to-kali-skeptics-why-im-a-believer/?hl=drakona
This post is written by a Descent veteran, and there are more of those guys that already support the project (e.g. Jediluke, google his name). Enjoy!!
The Crazy Ships Mode is not a replacement for anarchy. It's a replacement for single player! It's a replacement for co-op! It's more than that, it's better than that, it's the pilot training simulater we never had!
Actually this is exactly what I'm worried about. I don't want the game focused on the hyper-competitive niche multiplayer scene, trying to "train" pilots up to that. I want the single player and co-op!
It may be a good game for that multiplayer community, but it's not looking good for single-player fans. I'll continue to wait and see, maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised at some point.
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Yeah, I got that kind of vibe from Drakona's post as well, that she is eschewing SP in favor of using the ship classes as a way to bring new players in for the purpose of preparing them for the competitive scene. But I don't believe the devs have that in mind. I think their primary interests are the SP and story, explaining the origins of PTMC and the mechs, and, above all, a variety of ship classes specializing in roles for team-vs-team play. I'm not sure how exactly co-op will fit into it, but this would be an excellent question to ask of them. And prior posters here are right: the devs are very receptive and responsive to questions and concerns from the community.
The concern amongst the hardcore anarchy players is that, thus far, the available material makes the game seem more focused on this ship classes and team-vs-team play, and its hard to see any place for them in this. They want to see a game where the flight and weapons dynamics conform to the original Descent games, with strafing, trichording, using your ship, terrain, and weapons fire to control the space around your opponent and dictate their moves -- in short the "dance" that you can sense Drakona gets misty-eyed about when she describes it in her posts. They'd like to know that there will be a place for them to test their dogfighting skills against one another in anarchy, and that it will feel true to the original Descent they know so well. Drakona's post is trying to convince them that the devs do understand and appreciate the core Descent "physics" that make its PVP so interesting, and so they will be able to enjoy D:U even though it's not specifically a game meant for their niche.
Personally I consider myself somewhere between a casual Descent player and a hardcore competitive player. I started Descent the year it came out, immediately fell in love, and mostly spent my time in the SP campaign or co-oping with a few friends. It was maybe in the last 5 years that I engaged in the anarchy scene, mostly on D3 servers or D2X-XL with some other HLPers (oh man those were good times). And let me just say, I know full well what it feels like both to be the ace pilot and the cannon fodder in that environment. My friends who play casually tell me that I'm essentially untouchable, and any anarch between me and them is very one-sided. But when I play on some D3 servers, with people who have apparently been playing every day since at least last millennium, I get my ass kicked. Fast. They pull off dodges and place weapons fire with such quick, smooth, thoughtless precision that I swear it is dark magic. It's beautiful. It's also perfectly infuriating and guaranteed to make any normal person who joins quit out in 60 seconds or less. (I stuck around, continued to get pummeled, but managed to have some fun (if even in a masochistic sense) and picked up some new skills along the way. But I totally get why most people would want no part of that, or of a game that focuses around that community. I don't think D:U will be like that. :)
ed: Did I say 5? I meant 10. I keep underestimating how much time has gone by. 20 years since D1! :blah:
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Since this is the most Descent-related forum I frequent anymore, I really can't seem to get behind this project at all. I've been a fan of Descent since the shareware days, but this project honestly seems to be Descent in name only. For all the dedication these devs claim to have, I look at their videos and I'm at a loss, wondering what Descent they were playing back in 1996. It sure doesn't look like the one I remember.
And since they're putting the majority of their eggs in the multiplayer basket... I just don't get it. Where is a sustainable multiplayer community supposed to come from? The Descent "vets" don't want to start from zero. Why else have they played the same handful of levels for a decade? That's why they insist on reshaping the design to suit their idiosyncrasies, so they can crush all the newbies right out of the gate. And do you think newbies are going to buy this whole trial-by-fire bit? Not at all. The days of expecting people to die a thousand times to become experts at a game are over. So, explain to me how the multiplayer doesn't die on the vine, because I just don't see it.
I'm surprised to see the Descent community so rallied around this. As Scotty said, there's a whiff of desperation here. The idea that "If this doesn't succeed, we'll never have Descent again!" But that's not a very compelling argument. Perhaps they aren't familiar with Kickstarters, but they are a lot like political campaigns. The devs will make a ton of promises in the fundraising stage, but if they are successful, they have no obligation to listen to them. All they promise is a game. Not the game you want. A game.
I am also skeptical because so many of these devs came from Star Citizen. While people can and will defend Star Citizen until they are blue in the face, what can't be argued is that microtransactions are a huge part of their game. Even now, with Descent: Underground, we see a ton of emphasis on "perks" and grinding for rewards. We have tons of ships to choose from. We have two forms of currency in the game. We have a yearly subscription for Alpha/Beta access. Is all this really necessary? It all begins to sound like a lot like that other space epic boondoggle.
And that's fine, if space epics are your thing. But, to me, Descent's ambitions should be a lot more modest and focused. I've often said that my ideal Descent game, today, would be something that evokes nostalgia for the late 1990s. A deliberate throwback, visually and aurally. Something that could hang alongside Wipeout XL, or appear in the background of the movie Hackers. Something that is proudly abstract, loud, and psychedelic, but with modern design sensibilities. I actually don't feel there is much to be gained by taking a big-budget "triple A" Unreal Engine 4 approach. All the pretty graphics in the world aren't going to change the fact that it's a niche game for a niche audience. Capcom figured this out with Mega Man 9, which did the 8-bit throwback thing before it became totally overused among indies, but it proved a point. As long as the game is uproarious fun, you didn't need anything more than that. I think the developers of the successful STRAFE (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/strafegame/strafe/description) Kickstarter had the right idea. But that's just my opinion.
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Well, see, as long as DU is moddable, we will all win regardless, because people will just mod the game to be what they want it to be anyways. (The vets will mod in the retro throwback and play on their servers, with a nice modern engine to power it.)
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I it gonna make it to funding?
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I don't know if they've ever said it would be moddable, but if they haven't, I'm inclined to assume it won't be. Simply because they're obviously putting a lot of effort into their economy and tiered unlocking system, which would be a moot point if mods could circumvent it. :sigh:
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@riomaki
Perhaps I haven't been paying close enough attention, but my understanding was that the alpha is available to anyone who pledges over $80 during the kickstarter, and beta for anyone over $30. Where did you read about these requiring a yearly subscription?
And since they're putting the majority of their eggs in the multiplayer basket...
They are focusing on the multiplayer right now because that's the most effective method for balancing the ships and weapon mechanics. They talk about this quite a bit in their latest video update by the way, I think it's worth checking out.
"The Descent "vets" don't want to start from zero. Why else have they played the same handful of levels for a decade?"
There are literally thousands of maps available for Descent, but a lot of them are not that great for multiplayer/anarchy. I've gone through a significant number of them, myself, and finding ones that were very fun to play and replay felt like finding the diamond in the rough. The vets don't stick to the same maps because they are afraid of confronting something new or starting from scratch. They stick to those maps because they are still fun. They were very well designed for interesting and emergent PvP gameplay, which is something you can't necessarily tell just by looking at them. It becomes apparent after playing on it for a while. Ascent, for example, was one of the most fun experiences I have ever had in an anarchy game, and my friends and I have kept playing on it for years.
I think the vets only want the same thing that you do: gameplay mechanics that are faithful to the original. If they nail that, then the experience is fun for everyone, whether it be SP, CO-OP, or anarchy. And nobody is going to force you to play anarchy against the top level of players. They devs are even discussing a ranking system such that players who are interested in competitive play can easily choose to play only with those of their skill level.
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This looks compelling, but I would wait for a full release before getting too excited about it. There have been a number of Descent-like 6DOF games in production over the years and very few have delivered or even made it to release, even long before Kickstarter and its trend of games that over-promise things. The only such game I really liked was Retrovirus, which has its own distinct style and combat mechanics, different from Descent.
There are literally thousands of maps available for Descent, but a lot of them are not that great for multiplayer/anarchy. I've gone through a significant number of them, myself, and finding ones that were very fun to play and replay felt like finding the diamond in the rough. The vets don't stick to the same maps because they are afraid of confronting something new or starting from scratch. They stick to those maps because they are still fun. They were very well designed for interesting and emergent PvP gameplay, which is something you can't necessarily tell just by looking at them. It becomes apparent after playing on it for a while. Ascent, for example, was one of the most fun experiences I have ever had in an anarchy game, and my friends and I have kept playing on it for years.
I think the vets only want the same thing that you do: gameplay mechanics that are faithful to the original. If they nail that, then the experience is fun for everyone, whether it be SP, CO-OP, or anarchy. And nobody is going to force you to play anarchy against the top level of players. They devs are even discussing a ranking system such that players who are interested in competitive play can easily choose to play only with those of their skill level.
I was playing D3 online semi-regularly a few years ago, and did find that the community played a very narrow selection of maps at least at the time. It was basically only Varicose Veins and Skybox, which got old after a while. There used to be a much wider range of maps played back in the day, including all the stock map packs and different game modes like Entropy and Monsterball. This tends to happen in many old games that people play for a long time though.
I think Descent multiplayer accentuates skill differences between players unlike any other FPS out there. A really good player can dominate even a slightly lesser player to an extent not possible in most other games. This makes it rewarding to master for those of us who have played for a long time, but means there is a very high barrier to entry for newcomers. Like you, I've been playing Descent regularly in some form for 20 years and get smashed by the current D3 players, although I was able to be reasonably competitive at one point.
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My statement about "yearly subscriptions" comes from their own Kickstarter. In the Add-Ons section of their rewards, they describe a plan called The Underground where $79, yearly, gets you access to their private forum, design minutes and alpha/beta access. How that jives with the beta access pledge stated in the right column, I have no idea. Maybe it's on top of that. Either way, it's a subscription, and it struck me as weird and reminiscent of the "perpetual development" that Star Citizen is in.
As far as level variety is concerned, I have never accepted that the narrow selection of popular maps was born from how fantastic they were, mostly because I never got the sense that the vets bothered to give new maps a serious chance. Perhaps if they spent 100 hours playing X instead of Minerva, they'd see it has several gameplay qualities as well. I just feel the whole "exemplary gameplay" justification came after-the-fact.
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There used to be a much greater variety of maps played back in the day, during the one or two years after D3's release. All of the stock Outrage map packs were common, as well as a few fanmade ones. I have a lot of great memories of maps like Core, Half Pipe, Steel Vapor, and Kataclysmica across a variety of game types, but nobody plays them today. :no: This is something I've seen with other old games too though. In UT for example, CTF is dominated by Facing Worlds with Instagib and a bunch of fanmade mods.
One problem with making a niche Kickstarter game like this multiplayer-focused is that it tends to die out quickly and has little lasting value. There are quite a few multiplayer indie games that I liked a lot, but which I discovered a year after their release and were barely played by anyone online at that point. This is something Retrovirus did well. It has an extensive singleplayer campaign, even though the multiplayer is essentially dead.
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Cross-linking another Drakona post. (http://descendentstudios.com/community/topic/1179-physics-and-level-design-some-numbers/) A very impressive post, which first analyzes Descent's ship and weapon "physics", then goes deeply into the theory of level design, how it has evolved over time, and what elements lead to different kinds of game-play for different kinds of pilots. It is a wall of text as usual, but if you want to understand why some levels seem overplayed by the community, while others seem largely ignored, then I highly recommend giving it a read.
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My statement about "yearly subscriptions" comes from their own Kickstarter. In the Add-Ons section of their rewards, they describe a plan called The Underground where $79, yearly, gets you access to their private forum, design minutes and alpha/beta access. How that jives with the beta access pledge stated in the right column, I have no idea. Maybe it's on top of that.
You can get alpha access starting from the 80$ packages. Subscription is not required for alpha access, but as a subscriber you would also get it (on top of whatever package you have).
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While it's nice to have someone who can obsess over all the little details (I remember the Homing Missile tracking discussions in DX-Rebirth), I do question their ability to see the forest for the trees. Particularly in this thread (http://descentbb.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=21960&start=40), where she asserts that only the pros know what's best (and therefore has no faith in DXX-Rebirth or Sol Contingency because they didn't listen to her every word).
I'm not saying the vets shouldn't have a say in things - after all, they are essentially your only customers at this point (and probably the reason I don't bother with Descent anymore). But at the same time, you can fall into a trap of listening to them too closely (as Top Gun remarks). They want to build a game that they are innately comfortable with, but what comforts them is not necessarily what makes the most design sense 20 years later.
To Descent: Underground's credit, although I think their levels are oversized, I have to admit they are exploiting the heck out of the Z-axis. I mean, why is it that the most popular Descent levels, years later, are essentially 2D levels with uniform 20-unit-tall ceilings? Kind of defeats the point of 6DOF, right? That mystified me back then and it still mystifies me today. You'd think that "skilled" pilots would invite a challenge in the style of D1 Level 10's majestic opening room, instead of these tight, claustrophobic layouts that are all the rage.
And ultimately, I do hope that the next incarnation of Descent, should there be one, dictate some brand new ideas for everyone to mull over. I'm not a huge fan of this game's ideas, which I feel diverge a bit too much from what I feel Descent should be, but I would prefer developers that come in with a fresh set of eyes.
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~393K / 600K, 3 days left. Hmmm... Hopefully gets a big surge at the end.
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You'd think that "skilled" pilots would invite a challenge in the style of D1 Level 10's majestic opening room, instead of these tight, claustrophobic layouts that are all the rage.
They would get bored of it very quickly. :) A good design for singleplayer is not always a good design for anarchy. Often quite the opposite.
The main thing is that it takes too long for skilled pilots to kill each other in an open space. This is not a problem of aim. It is a problem of dodging. They’ll dodge nearly everything that is thrown at them, whether it be laser, plasma, or full racks of homing missiles. A very skilled pilot can even dodge the mega missiles in a space barely twice as wide as their ship. Trust me. I’ve seen it. The space required to dodge any D1 weapon besides the vulcan (or the fusion just because of its large hitbox) is remarkably small.
Put a bunch of them in a large room, and you’ll find that the combat trends towards pilots keeping their distance and scoring hits with the highest-velocity weapons available. Pretty much the only D1 weapon that is practical then is the Vulcan, which happens to be the lowest DPS of any primary (and not by accident). Otherwise, one might try to get in close to where they can slide faster than the opponent can turn, and score hits that way. This is generally the option that involves more risk than skill.
So, what the small, claustrophobic spaces are doing is twofold. It forces combat to happen at shorter range, and it limits your options for movement. If you’re good, you can still dodge any given shot just fine. But now it becomes possible for you to use your own ship and fire to further limit your opponents options. And vice versa. Instead of playing "who can aim-and-click faster or out-strafe the other better", you’re playing a fast paced game of chess in three dimensions. It requires a very different set of skills, and is something which is often poorly understood by casual players. But it played a huge role in how level design evolved over time. I think it’s also a large part of why there is this big division in the Descent community between people who prefer playing D1 anarchy or D3 anarchy. (I’ve played a lot of both, and enjoy both, but they are very different, largely for the reasons being discussed here.) I’m hopeful that D:U’s gameplay (assuming it’s even funded; looking pretty grim at the moment) will be fun for both.
I totally agree with you about the vertical component though. With the D:U maps seen thus far it looks like they are utilizing the third dimension extremely well. :)
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Well, hopefully any future Descent game would investigate some of those weapon shortcomings. Your argument is well-reasoned and, to me, it's a shame that the mechanics of the game don't truly support the 6DOF gameplay that people expect. I personally enjoy the big, glorious dogfights that would tend to happen in larger levels, and I believe it's what most gamers think Descent multiplayer is supposed to be about. Back when the game was new, that's what a lot of people did, "tedious" or not.
The fact that the game "evolved" into this extremely twitch-based don't-blink-or-you're-dead affair... yeah, I can see why the die-hards like it. It alienated me really fast. So, that's why I've always treated multiplayer and its vets like they live in their own little world. I see Descent: Underground, ostensibly a multiplayer effort, and I fail to get excited when I see those same people trying to dictate its design. That's not the Descent I'm interested in.
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I agree that game design primarily catered to multiplayer veterans will not result in an active or long-lasting game, and would just drive away new players. However, large open spaces are not really conducive to multiplayer. This was a problem with the outdoor areas in some D3 maps, where any weapons except the Vauss and MD were useless, and stalemates were common until someone eventually ran away and went indoors. However, you can definitely have smaller and more cramped levels that are still spread out in the third dimension, which maps like Minerva or Veins are certainly not. In D3, Core was a better example. I recall another good one called Get 3D for D2 that we used to play here on HLP.
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Get 3D
THANK YOU, I've been trying all day to remember the name of that level! That was so insane to play on. :)
The fact that the game "evolved" into this extremely twitch-based don't-blink-or-you're-dead affair... yeah, I can see why the die-hards like it.
Well that's the thing, right? The game itself didn't change at all. What changed was the mindset of those highly competitive players, and thus the levels that were popular within their group changed as well. But for most other players, that change was completely irrelevant, or even obnoxious if it was forced upon them.
I think the D:U guys said it best when they talked about how different people take away different things from the Descent experience. Some people love openness, others like confinement. Some think Descent is all about competitive play, others prefer the single player. Or cooperative. But it's all the same game. :) I think the big reason Descent never faded from memory was that, unlike most other games in the 6DOF genre, it really got the mechanics right and had lasting replay value for all kinds of play styles. So to cater to just one of them in a reboot would be a huge mistake and further divide the community. I think it makes sense for them to focus on the competitive multiplayer right now to help balance the ships and weapons, but the rest cannot just be an afterthought. If the SP / Co-Op is weak, a lot of people are going to be extremely upset. It would also be bad if the core multiplayer team-vs-team system ends up aligning too closely with what those hardcore competitive players want. New and casual players would hate it.
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I agree that game design primarily catered to multiplayer veterans will not result in an active or long-lasting game, and would just drive away new players. However, large open spaces are not really conducive to multiplayer. This was a problem with the outdoor areas in some D3 maps, where any weapons except the Vauss and MD were useless, and stalemates were common until someone eventually ran away and went indoors. However, you can definitely have smaller and more cramped levels that are still spread out in the third dimension, which maps like Minerva or Veins are certainly not. In D3, Core was a better example. I recall another good one called Get 3D for D2 that we used to play here on HLP.
Well, they could have destructible windows into those areas (with MD / Vause guns / ammo nearby) to enable folks inside to snipe anyone outside, which would make it hazardous.
Basically make it so that you could still go outside, just not hang out there (sort of like Blood Gulch in Halo, you're not really safe in between the bases even if no one is nearby, snipers will get you).
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Finally 33 hours people - if you haven't backed already, please consider it - we need it :D
Check out the new trailer @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko8EOVfY26k
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I agree that game design primarily catered to multiplayer veterans will not result in an active or long-lasting game, and would just drive away new players. (...) However, you can definitely have smaller and more cramped levels that are still spread out in the third dimension, which maps like Minerva or Veins are certainly not. In D3, Core was a better example. I recall another good one called Get 3D for D2 that we used to play here on HLP.
Yeah, I agree, and that's a point I was going to make, if I were familiar with the last 10 years of Descent multiplayer. I can understand why some levels don't have giant open spaces, but not why popular levels rarely exploit the Z-axis. When I left, I don't think any did. You could make Minerva for Doom or Quake and nothing would be lost. I think there's something really weird about that, in a game that's supposedly big on 6DOF. Core was an example of a level that was uniquely Descent.
I remember, from my days on DBB, how there were always a lot of "house rules" in play to satisfy whatever the pros wanted. But, a good multiplayer game caters to all skillsets, not just the top. In Unreal Tournament's heyday, I used to reside somewhere in the middle. I'd get killed a lot by the top players... but every now and then, I'd get revenge. And that's what stopped it from being totally frustrating. I feel when that happened in Descent, the pros would be "Oh man, we better ban that weapon!" And then they did. Anything that would allow a newbie to kill a pro once in a blue moon was like that. Until it was nothing but pros plonking everyone with their Mass Drivers from halfway across the level because casuals never understood how to dodge the stupid thing. :p
But anyhow, that's neither here nor there. It's going to be one close Kickstarter, that's for sure. I still can't say I'm that convinced, although talking it through, I begin to understand their design a lot more.
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Finally 33 hours people - if you haven't backed already, please consider it - we need it :D
Check out the new trailer @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko8EOVfY26k
Leaps and bounds better than their old one. Holy ****.
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Increased my pledge after that new trailer. :P Not sure why it said "Prepare for war" instead of "Prepare for descent" at the end though...
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Okay, that trailer managed to convince me. Backed.
I'm still not expecting this to be as great as the old Descent, but at least now it's actually looking like a worthy addition to the canon.
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I have no doubt that if they used that trailer as their original one, they'd already be past their goal!
Definitely one of the closest Kickstarters I've seen coming toward the end. I kind of thought they'd be closer this morning. That said, I've backed for $30. Now, I hope they don't disappoint! ;)
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(http://i.imgur.com/aAjceET.jpg)
The best cookie.
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They only need ~$8000 more and have a few hours to do it. I think this may reach funding after all.
[edit] Just hit $600K! Cool!
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Annnd, it's backed.
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wooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!111!!1!1
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Ah! Now if only I had a computer to run it!.... *sighs*
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That new trailer convinced me to back too. I'm glad they made it :)
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Yeah I'd need one at least 7 years younger than this thing to run it, but who cares, I'll figure that out later!
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I'll be honest, last week when they were stagnating at about 300k, I didn't think they'd pull it off.
I'm very pleasantly surprised :)
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The FreeSpace Tactics Kickstarter serving as an indicator for interest in the game is nonsense. If anything, Interplay should look at this, maybe combined with Star Citizen, and realize the potential. :nod:
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This game was my childhood.
Backed $170 during the last 30 hours.
I don't think there has ever been any other retail game that I have wanted more.
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I'll be honest, last week when they were stagnating at about 300k, I didn't think they'd pull it off.
I'm very pleasantly surprised :)
No way anyone would let it fail that close to the mark. At that point, you borrow from yourself to put it over the line.
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Tired of flat boxy anarchy levels? Try this lovely little thing: (http://www.enspiar.com/dmdb/viewMission.php?id=836)
(http://i.imgur.com/7Fdkutq.jpg)
It doesn't look so complicated on the map, but holy crap does it get disorienting inside... just watching the replay of my fight in it makes me dizzy.
Thanks NaphthaTurisas for totally breaking my brain, and to a guy on DCL for introducing me to it.
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God they sure are pushing that subscription pretty hard.
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Dan Wentz will be creating the music for Descent Underground!
Kickstarter update #38,
My name is Dan Wentz, and I am going to be creating some cool music and audio for Descent Underground.
Some of you old school folks might remember me as I worked on the original Descent series back in the 90s. I did level design, modeling, sound design and MIDI music for Descent 2.
I’ve been into games and music for as long as I can remember. I’m a fan of all kinds of game types, but have always gone back to first person shooters as my favorite. I mostly enjoy gaming experiences that allow balance, freedom and control.
The Parallax offices were split between Champaign, IL and Ann Arbor, MI, and as we continued to develop some add-ons collectively (Infinite Abyss,Vertigo, ports to other platforms) this difference in locations eventually led to the studios breaking off into two companies, Outrage and Volition. The last Descent game I had worked on around that time was Descent Maximum, essentially Descent 2 for the Playstation 2.
On Descent Underground I will be working on sound design and music, basically anything audio related I will be taking part in its conception, design, delivery and execution. The first leg of work will be concentrating on a short term milestone delivering 5+ minutes of music and a sizable amount of sound assets for the vertical slice.
I am extremely excited for the opportunity to work on such a great title again and with a new talented team of developers! This game is one of my all-time favorites and I cannot wait to see it continue to grow. Here is a small piece of music that is a work in progress that I am working on for Descent Underground, let me know what you think, I hope you like it.
https://youtu.be/hT7-xfK68rQ
Also, be sure to catch Wingman's Hangar tomorrow the show is always good for a few surprises.
https://youtu.be/l2Co31iK0b8
Thank you all for making this journey possible and thanks to the team for bringing me on board.
See you in the mines.
Dan "Danimal" Wentz
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Pumped!
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I dared not hope that they would succeed in getting Dan Wentz working on this. This is a dream. The WIP track is freaking perfect.
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Just started playing the Descent Underground pre-alpha multiplayer, quite a bit of fun.
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Id rather see a Descent 4 than Underground. But I do admire the series, so I am glad they are making a new game. This will increase fanbase if done right and hopefully will lead to a Descent 4 in the future.
I just found out about this today when i found it on steam for 30$ as a early access game.
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Id rather see a Descent 4 than Underground. But I do admire the series, so I am glad they are making a new game. This will increase fanbase if done right and hopefully will lead to a Descent 4 in the future.
I just found out about this today when i found it on steam for 30$ as a early access game.
Wish granted (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/revivalprod/overload-the-ultimate-six-degree-of-freedom-shoote) (Yes, it's fully funded. Steam pre-alpha playable teaser is here (http://store.steampowered.com/app/450220/))
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Its not Descent 4 tho. You don't think they will eventually make a official one?
I did enjoy Overloads demo and will buy it when released.
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Might also want to check out Sol Contingency (http://www.sol-contingency.com/) (They were developing a Descent title before they got C&D'ed by Interplay; so they just stripped out all the Descent universe stuff)
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Its not Descent 4 tho. You don't think they will eventually make a official one?
It's Descent 4 in all respects but ownership of the IP, and it's not like Descent had a rich canon of storytelling that's been lost.
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Well, Descent: Underground does promise a singleplayer campaign at some point. Despite the odd naming (it seems that numbering sequels has gone out of fashion recently), I think it'll be basically Descent 4. D3's storyline wrapped up pretty nicely (same goes for the Mercenary expansion), though, so they'll be starting a new story anyway.
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Except Underground is NOT a sequel. It's a prequel.
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Descent (2018) Gameplay Teaser (https://youtu.be/i465zmhzOmg)
This looks bad...
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This project has been a total trainwreck.
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Descent (2018) Gameplay Teaser (https://youtu.be/i465zmhzOmg)
This looks bad...
oh no
please, I mean no offense to the devs. I LOVE Descent and want a new game very much. But everything about this trailer screams "GET YER GENERIC INDIE GAME HERE" from the lackluster framerate to the HUD that looks NOTHING LIKE DESCENT to the font used and the logos at the end.
Generic music, no plot reveals, only 30 seconds, no shock value at all... poor first impression. Sorry.
And they're charging 40 BUCKS???
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Wow... yeah, hopefully it stands up as its own totally different game, because it doesn't look like it can hold up under the banner of "Descent"... we'll see.
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This seems like a lot of hot takes for a 30-second inconclusive teaser.
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This seems like a lot of hot takes for a 30-second inconclusive teaser.
Perhaps, but it has been in development in some form since 2015, and is not being headed by Chris Roberts. So it should look a little better/more complete/more interesting, one would think.
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This seems like a lot of hot takes for a 30-second inconclusive teaser.
Perhaps, but it has been in development in some form since 2015, and is not being headed by Chris Roberts. So it should look a little better/more complete/more interesting, one would think.
The nature of it's inception and development has been too similar to Star Citizen methinks.
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Meanwhile, Overload released a level pack DLC. Very "Levels of the World" style. :) And it continues to be awesome.
I continue to be upset that people are going to be suckered into buying this crap instead.
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It's looking like this project may be dead. Website is down, and rumor on the steam forums is that little orbit pulled the plug on the project. Hope that isn't true
Will hopefully get an update either way.
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If this project is buried--it died a long time ago--they should hand the Descent IP to the Overload team, with apologies.
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That's not their choice to make. The cardboard box that is Interplay still controls Descent as a title.
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What's the tl;dr on what happened? Last I knew they were doing some multiplayer mining clan type stuff which, while it wasn't my cup of tea, I guess they figured the players wanted? What happened?
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What's the tl;dr on what happened? Last I knew they were doing some multiplayer mining clan type stuff which, while it wasn't my cup of tea, I guess they figured the players wanted? What happened?
After doing a bit of reading, it seems like they ran through the KS money, so they partnered with Little Orbit. Unfortunately LO have apparently not delivered on the funding+resources they promised, so Descendant is trying to wrestle control back from them so they can release it.
read this for more info: https://www.descentbb.net/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=24545 (https://www.descentbb.net/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=24545)
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I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but publishers never cease to be evil.
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Wow okay. So (according to the devs) the publishers bought the rights to release, did some executive meddling, and now are pulling support... Why? For what reason?
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Why did Interplay screw over FreeSpace 2? Corporate upitty-ups are supremely retarded (well, to be more honest, many of them are, not all) and think they're the smartest, hardest-working people on the planet. Legit the reason boils down to whatever tickles their fancy. It's their idea so it's right, and that's that.
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This can also apply to senior NCO's ;D
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And low-level Commissioned Officers. xD
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Word
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Another update! Looks like Descendent Studios is being sued by Little Orbit,
See DescentBB forum page: https://descentbb.net/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=24643 (https://descentbb.net/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=24643)
Or Little Orbit's website: https://www.gamersfirst.com/descent/news/2020/2/24/message-from-matt-about-descent-legal-action (https://www.gamersfirst.com/descent/news/2020/2/24/message-from-matt-about-descent-legal-action)
What a mess this has turned into.
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Interplay picked the wrong team. They should have gone with the Sol Contingency (http://sol-contingency.com/) guys that they instead gave the C&D to (they ended up stripping the Descent IP out and releasing).
They probably felt more familiar with the business practices of Descendent Studios heh.
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And to think that Descendant were the seemingly competent Star Citizen people.....