Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => Arts & Talents => Topic started by: ShivanEmperor on June 21, 2008, 08:27:37 am
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I am preparing to write down a fan fiction here for the ultimate SW v.s. FS story ;). But first there is info I will need to set everything up and to make a story-line that works well with the laws of pyshics.
1. We need to discuss the strength of Star Wars capital ships and weapons compared to that of Freespace Terran capital ships and weapons.
2. We need to discuss the strength of Freespace shields compared to those in Star Wars.
Well, I suppose I should get started:
No Freespace vessels have shields except for fighters and the Lucifer super destroyer. During the first great war, the Lucifer could only be destroyed while in subspace because it's shields were too strong. It looks like this is where size comes in. Imagine enough fighters to fill up the entire space inside a Lucifer? How long would it take to take down the shields of all those fighters? This shows the power of the Lucifer's shields. In Star Wars, most fighters have shields, including larger ships, such as capital ships or frigates. The shields on the large ships however seem far easier to take down than those in Freespace. So, maybe Star Wars weaponry is stronger than Freespace weaponry? Lets see what we can do to understand the comparisons. :nod:
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This reminds me of that JAD briefing about the Heart of Gold beating the Colossus in a crossover versus battle.
But anyway.
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I think that the Star Wars shields are as strong, or fighter weapons are weaker, after playing BF2. Remember that beams also pierce shields.
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I think that the Star Wars shields are as strong, or fighter weapons are weaker, after playing BF2. Remember that beams also pierce shields.
lol, don't take battlefront seriously.
also, once we're done with the ships, there shouldnt be anything stopping you from FREDing this mad idea.
i will probably play it.
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I am preparing to write down a fan fiction here for the ultimate SW v.s. FS story ;)
Not a campaign.
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I was thinking of doing one of those Major Rift in Time and Space things where the Imperials get stuck in FS1-era FreeSpace and start killing everyone.
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...Lucifer vs the Executor ? Is there competition? Iirc, the Lucifer had a "sheath shielding" system, which was why it was invulnerable to small arms fire (read, GTVA weapons). Could turbolasers pierce the sheath shield?
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Could turbolasers pierce the sheath shield?
I think they would be able to with repeated bombardment.
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I'd use Ion Cannons. Those would probably work better.
Über Circes.
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Well I'd say that the GTA could have made something like that already (they had the S-Breaker, which was the predecessor to the Circe).
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Non-Photon beam cannon weapons can't pierce shields. Especially the Lucifer ones. In other words- the Lucifer is invulnerable to turbo lasers. Fighters would have trouble in long term.
And a Harbinger can deal 5 gigatons of damage. Here you have a calculation- how much HP damage it does to a ship compared to the canon "over 5000 megatons" info.
P.S. I still think a SW vs FS match is nonsense. Though I have faith in GTVA winning it, but a sci-fi universe vs sci-fi universe just doesn't work.
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I agree that only beams can get through the Lucy's shielding, but for the sake of this thing turbolasers have to get through, or it one-sided.
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Unless no Lucifers show up.
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Subspace beats Hyperspace. But Leia's slave uniform beats Carl's fishnet tights. . . So i guess it's swings and roundabouts.
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Wouldn't the GTVA just steal the large ship shielding systems? They seem to be awfully good at that.
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I agree that only beams can get through the Lucy's shielding, but for the sake of this thing turbolasers have to get through, or it one-sided.
Blue Planet. You have to destroy the reactors with fighter weapons.
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I agree that only beams can get through the Lucy's shielding, but for the sake of this thing turbolasers have to get through, or it one-sided.
Blue Planet. You have to destroy the reactors with fighter weapons.
If we accept non-canon sources, that is.
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I agree that only beams can get through the Lucy's shielding, but for the sake of this thing turbolasers have to get through, or it one-sided.
Blue Planet. You have to destroy the reactors with fighter weapons.
If we accept non-canon sources, that is.
BluePlanet is not acceptable because it is non-canon. The Lucifer there is considered unshielded. Or at least it was shielded, before it engaged the Raynor.
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Point taken.
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Subspace beats Hyperspace. But Leia's slave uniform beats Carl's fishnet tights. . . So i guess it's swings and roundabouts.
I remember her slave uniform.
Actually, I've always wondered if GTVA beams could actually pierce the Lucy's shield. I always thought it wasn't a regular shield.
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They (the GTVA) speculate that they (beams) could, but it was never put into practice. (obviously)
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Well, yeah...If beams pierce fighter shields, I would assume they can pierce Lucifer shields.
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This thread brings mental images of the space battle at the beginning of Episode III with the Lucy unexpectedly jumping in and owning everything.
...I`d watch that if it were a movie.
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Well, yeah...If beams pierce fighter shields, I would assume they can pierce Lucifer shields.
It all depends. In FS1, it was stated that the shield surrounding the Lucifer was impervious, not merely resilient, against all weaponry. It raises the question whether or not the shield on the Lucifer even acts the same way as the shields on fighters and bombers. Of course, it could be explained so that the Lucifer's power output makes it possible for it to generate a ridiculously powerful shield. It might also be that the power output of beam cannons is enough to pierce through it much in a similar way that the anti-fighter beams pierce through the shields of smaller craft.
Who knows. No canon evidence. We must guess and make our own assumptions.
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This thread brings mental images of the space battle at the beginning of Episode III with the Lucy unexpectedly jumping in and owning everything.
...I`d watch that if it were a movie.
Mmhmm. So would I.
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The GTVA Colossus took 20 years to build and is 6km in length. The Death Star I has a diameter of 120-160km (depends on your source) and took 20 years to build because of design and supply problems. The Death Star II has a diameter of somewhere between 200km to LOL REALLY BIG and took two to four years to build. Even if the Empire doesn't have ships individually outgunning their GTVA counterpart, the Empire will have a swarm for every single ship the GTVA can construct.
For the sake of the story, you might have to defy logic and canon a teensy bit so the GTVA isn't immedately destroyed.
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That is a good point. The GTVA has somewhere between 10 and 20 star systems while the Empire has the greater part of an entire galaxy under its command...
But those two facts likely stem from the difference between Subspace and Hyperspace physics. Space travel is more restricted in the FS universe because of the node system, while in Star Wars it`s point, click, and go from anywhere to anywhere. It would be much easier to to expand an empire with free travel like that. For this FanFic you`d have to find some sort of compromise between the two FTL systems.
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...Not really. Perhaps there are multiple ways of FTL travel, and ofc the GTVA would want the new tech for their ships... for weapons, see how many shots it takes to vaporize asteroids of similar proportions. I think beam cannons would be a big surprise for the Imps, though... I mean, they punch through shields, right? uh-yup... oopsie, there goes the bridge of that ISD.. and that one, and that one. Decapitated. ;7
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I always figured that Subspace is the only form of FTL travel in FreeSpace simply by the fact that the Shivans, who have been flying around for at least tens of thousands of years, haven`t come up with anything better.
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I'm guessing other more power hungry methods would work. Also a GTVA commando team might be able to nick a corvette or something and reverse engineer the hyperspace motivator.
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... I think beam cannons would be a big surprise for the Imps, though... I mean, they punch through shields, right? uh-yup... oopsie, there goes the bridge of that ISD.. and that one, and that one. Decapitated. ;7
Finally, a use for slash beams!
Yea, I was thinking that GTVA might win on sheer fact that the only Star Wars ... vehicle ... with beam weapons are the Death Stars.
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Until the Imps swallow an Aeolus with an ISD and take it apart to ref how it works.
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Until the Imps swallow an Aeolus with an ISD and take it apart to ref how it works.
... So true. I forget the pwnsome tractors.
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You think ? An Aeolus wouldn't be without escort, and it'd be able to defend itself from an ISD.
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You think ? An Aeolus wouldn't be without escort, and it'd be able to defend itself from an ISD.
Yea. It does have an SGreen. And if the captain waited for the ISD to close in before firing up into the ISD...
Also, we don't know if the tractor beams would be enough to overpower the subspace drive firing up.
... Woot, 700th post!
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Also, we don't know if the tractor beams would be enough to overpower the subspace drive firing up.
... Woot, 700th post!
I'd lol if an Aeolus accidentally dragged an ISD with it during a subspace jump. Have a nice wtf, you Imperial snobs.
Hmm, 2533th post.
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A few ion canon would soon sort it out :)
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You know, in the MechWarrior universe, there was a scenc where a Fox-class corvette jumped out while enganged in combat above New Avalon. It jumped out as it was on a collision course with a destroyer, and when it jumped, the bow sliced through the destroyer, then snapped back and exploded ... I'll go find the passage and type it up proper later on.
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I think that each method of space travel has its pros and cons. Subspace travel is near instant, while hyperspace travel is slower but unrestricted.
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Didn't someone have to map hyperspace corridoors or something? Also there was a great hyperspace war, what was all that about?
<on topic>> GTVA marines vs ewoks, who wins?
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Shivans!
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Shivans!
QFT!!
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I am coming closer and closer to having the script for the fan fic ready. So far we are still a bit unable to clear things up around shields. Here is some more info you can debate on...
A SW vs ST (Star Trek) fan named Lord Poe (Or many other names to do with "Poe") make an excellent and funny series with "The Movies" game called "The Last Bastion". It was set in the time after the Sovereign-class ship (Capatain Picard's Enterprise in "Nemesis" and "First Contact") was built. Due to real world calculations and hours of techno babble (As you might call it) it was confirmed through the SW Attack of the Clones incredible cross sections and the techno babble in the TNG (The Next Generation) series that SW ships clearly serpassed Star Trek ships. The Last Bastion detailed how much damage a single low powerred light turbo laser shot can do to the most advanced ship in all of Starfleet. 1/4 of the Sorverign was destroyed. And that was only a light turbo laser shot. Now, the ST universe is in a very similar time peroid as FS. This fact implies that weaponry might be very similar in strength, along with shields. Speaking of shields... In The Last Bastion, several ST ships were engaging an ISD. The ISD shields were not damaged one bit. After ages of attacking, the ISD was still in perfect health. Repairs were being made to the ISD while the attack was on, meaning that the ST ships were not even disrupting the repairs to the ISD in any way.
Since both these aspects existed mainly during the time peroid of Freespace, then that means shields and weaponry of GTVA ships could be very similar to that of Star Trek ships.
Note: I do not own The Last Bastion series in any way, but it is a very good series and can be found on YouTube. Watch it for a good laugh and some more insight.
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1 hitpoint in FS is aprox 1.5625 megatons. According to the Harbinger at least.
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I am coming closer and closer to having the script for the fan fic ready. So far we are still a bit unable to clear things up around shields. Here is some more info you can debate on...
A SW vs ST (Star Trek) fan named Lord Poe (Or many other names to do with "Poe") make an excellent and funny series with "The Movies" game called "The Last Bastion". It was set in the time after the Sovereign-class ship (Capatain Picard's Enterprise in "Nemesis" and "First Contact") was built. Due to real world calculations and hours of techno babble (As you might call it) it was confirmed through the SW Attack of the Clones incredible cross sections and the techno babble in the TNG (The Next Generation) series that SW ships clearly serpassed Star Trek ships. The Last Bastion detailed how much damage a single low powerred light turbo laser shot can do to the most advanced ship in all of Starfleet. 1/4 of the Sorverign was destroyed. And that was only a light turbo laser shot. Now, the ST universe is in a very similar time peroid as FS. This fact implies that weaponry might be very similar in strength, along with shields. Speaking of shields... In The Last Bastion, several ST ships were engaging an ISD. The ISD shields were not damaged one bit. After ages of attacking, the ISD was still in perfect health. Repairs were being made to the ISD while the attack was on, meaning that the ST ships were not even disrupting the repairs to the ISD in any way.
Since both these aspects existed mainly during the time peroid of Freespace, then that means shields and weaponry of GTVA ships could be very similar to that of Star Trek ships.
Note: I do not own The Last Bastion series in any way, but it is a very good series and can be found on YouTube. Watch it for a good laugh and some more insight.
Star Wars happened A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, while Star Trek happened in 2100 summat. FreeSpace happened in 2335. Not the same timeline at all, and we already had an Orion Vs. ISD battle (some YouTube video, I believe by Cobra), in which the Orion kicked ass. Besides the capships, think of the FreeSpace fighters, which have easily better shields. A Tie doesn't even have shields for the most part, and most Rebel fighters can only survive a few hits. An FS fighter can keep going and going, absorbing punishment.
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I am coming closer and closer to having the script for the fan fic ready. So far we are still a bit unable to clear things up around shields. Here is some more info you can debate on...
A SW vs ST (Star Trek) fan named Lord Poe (Or many other names to do with "Poe") make an excellent and funny series with "The Movies" game called "The Last Bastion". It was set in the time after the Sovereign-class ship (Capatain Picard's Enterprise in "Nemesis" and "First Contact") was built. Due to real world calculations and hours of techno babble (As you might call it) it was confirmed through the SW Attack of the Clones incredible cross sections and the techno babble in the TNG (The Next Generation) series that SW ships clearly serpassed Star Trek ships. The Last Bastion detailed how much damage a single low powerred light turbo laser shot can do to the most advanced ship in all of Starfleet. 1/4 of the Sorverign was destroyed. And that was only a light turbo laser shot. Now, the ST universe is in a very similar time peroid as FS. This fact implies that weaponry might be very similar in strength, along with shields. Speaking of shields... In The Last Bastion, several ST ships were engaging an ISD. The ISD shields were not damaged one bit. After ages of attacking, the ISD was still in perfect health. Repairs were being made to the ISD while the attack was on, meaning that the ST ships were not even disrupting the repairs to the ISD in any way.
Since both these aspects existed mainly during the time peroid of Freespace, then that means shields and weaponry of GTVA ships could be very similar to that of Star Trek ships.
Note: I do not own The Last Bastion series in any way, but it is a very good series and can be found on YouTube. Watch it for a good laugh and some more insight.
Star Wars happened A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, while Star Trek happened in 2100 summat. FreeSpace happened in 2335. Not the same timeline at all, and we already had an Orion Vs. ISD battle (some YouTube video, I believe by Cobra), in which the Orion kicked ass. Besides the capships, think of the FreeSpace fighters, which have easily better shields. A Tie doesn't even have shields for the most part, and most Rebel fighters can only survive a few hits. An FS fighter can keep going and going, absorbing punishment.
That 'ISD vs GTD Orion' video was made by me.
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Add to the fact that we have kick ass secondaries and primaries. Not just laser cannons, but controlled nuclear explosions! Plus, I've yet to see a SW secondary that fires in salvos of 8.
... Come to think of it, the only secondaries I've seen in SW are photon torpedoes and concussion missiles.
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... Come to think of it, the only secondaries I've seen in SW are photon torpedoes and concussion missiles.
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,52497.msg0.html
^ SW Secondaries. Some of them are decent, and I think you can swarm-fire concussion missiles (although m you can't cram hundreds of dumbfire missiles on to a fighter)
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So no Total Dumbfire Ownage ?
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When comparing freespace vs star wars fighters I always think of the following:
Length of the Millenium Falcon: 26,7m
Length of a Medusa Bomber: 41m
So, try to remember how a bunch of Ties are engaging the Falcon in the Star Wars movies...
Well, at least the Empire got numbers :p
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Damn, those TIEs will be harder to hit than SF Dragons :shaking:
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Take Maxims and snipe them from long range before they even get near you.
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Pffft. We just have to poision their beer with some poison and they're easier to hit than a dumb duck inn christmas.
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I am coming closer and closer to having the script for the fan fic ready. So far we are still a bit unable to clear things up around shields. Here is some more info you can debate on...
A SW vs ST (Star Trek) fan named Lord Poe (Or many other names to do with "Poe") make an excellent and funny series with "The Movies" game called "The Last Bastion". It was set in the time after the Sovereign-class ship (Capatain Picard's Enterprise in "Nemesis" and "First Contact") was built. Due to real world calculations and hours of techno babble (As you might call it) it was confirmed through the SW Attack of the Clones incredible cross sections and the techno babble in the TNG (The Next Generation) series that SW ships clearly serpassed Star Trek ships. The Last Bastion detailed how much damage a single low powerred light turbo laser shot can do to the most advanced ship in all of Starfleet. 1/4 of the Sorverign was destroyed. And that was only a light turbo laser shot. Now, the ST universe is in a very similar time peroid as FS. This fact implies that weaponry might be very similar in strength, along with shields. Speaking of shields... In The Last Bastion, several ST ships were engaging an ISD. The ISD shields were not damaged one bit. After ages of attacking, the ISD was still in perfect health. Repairs were being made to the ISD while the attack was on, meaning that the ST ships were not even disrupting the repairs to the ISD in any way.
Since both these aspects existed mainly during the time peroid of Freespace, then that means shields and weaponry of GTVA ships could be very similar to that of Star Trek ships.
Note: I do not own The Last Bastion series in any way, but it is a very good series and can be found on YouTube. Watch it for a good laugh and some more insight.
Star Wars happened A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, while Star Trek happened in 2100 summat. FreeSpace happened in 2335. Not the same timeline at all, and we already had an Orion Vs. ISD battle (some YouTube video, I believe by Cobra), in which the Orion kicked ass. Besides the capships, think of the FreeSpace fighters, which have easily better shields. A Tie doesn't even have shields for the most part, and most Rebel fighters can only survive a few hits. An FS fighter can keep going and going, absorbing punishment.
Star Trek has loads of different timelines. During the time of "Nemesis" and "First Contact" the year is somewhere around the 23rd to 25th century. Meaning Star Trek ships are not that weak. Those phasers on the Star Trek ships look juts a little weaker than beam cannons but they have a far greater firing rate, which should make them the same strength as a beam cannon. Yes, beam cannons pack quite a wallop but Star Wars ships are for more advanced. Over 50 thousand years since first entering galactic society, the SW ships would have had far more time to develop super advanced tech. Also, SW episode 3, the Invisible Hand is firing all its weapons to starboard on a Venator Class. Both the Venator and Invisible Hand are creating massive dents and explosions on the hulls of each ship. The firepower of a Turbo Laser looks like more than enough to overtake the full power of a Terran Beam Cannon. Since Star Trek ships have very little luck in going up against an ISD's, FS ships would have similar chances. Unless anyone else has any other clues as to comparisons in shields and fire power, SW ships can defeat a FS ships with significant ease. By the way, that video of the Orion v.s. an ISD is not entirely accurate. An ISD, I believe, is a bit bigger than that. Also, that ISD's weaponry was not based in RL calculations. Go to the Star Wars Technical Commentaries and you should see the strength of weapons and shields. These specs are superior to those of ST ships. ST ships of the latest ST timeline to date would be similar to those of FS ships. Time and tech are the key to determining superiority of ships.
I have pretty much got the script for my fan fic planned out. Expect part one within a weeks time or less.
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The relative size in the video is correct. ISD are smaller than Orion class destroyers.
Both the Venator and Invisible Hand are creating massive dents and explosions on the hulls of each ship
When the Luci fired on an old Orion, it completely punched through the hull with only one shot, instantly vaporizing ships 1.5 times the size of the Millenium Falcon that were in the way (FS2 opening sequence)
Again, "massive" is relativ to the size, and due to the low detail models people tend to greatly undererstimate the size of Freespace ships.
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Actually, their in-game size appears smaller due to the FOV/POV/whatever. I placed a player controled Inferno Shivan Juggernaut 20 kilometers away from a 6400km size Earth model's surface. It looked way smaller than it should have. . .
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Ok, maybe my "due to" was false :)
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The Star Destroyers are smaller than Orions though. They're 1.4/1.7km, and the Orion's 2.1km.
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So technology dictates that they would be less powerful. Unless they're super advanced over the GTVA.
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In other words, the less numerous GTVA Fleet would overwhelm the far more numerous, but beam-cannon-less Imperial Fleet. Also, we has Vasudans, they only have Trandoshans.
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1 hitpoint in FS is aprox 1.5625 megatons. According to the Harbinger at least.
That doesn't seem true, as a fighter should not be able to withstand a 340 megaton blast.
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It's probably like that in-FS-universe, as in- fighters can whitstand kilotons of damage, but capital ships can whitstand gigatons.
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To sum up the argument so far:
GTVA > Imperial
GTVA >2 Rebels
GTVA >3 Star Wars pirates
Shivans >999999 Everything
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In other words, the less numerous GTVA Fleet would overwhelm the far more numerous, but beam-cannon-less Imperial Fleet. Also, we has Vasudans, they only have Trandoshans.
Until Qwi Xux gives everyone quantum shielded crystalline armor...
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The stuff that can survive a supernova?
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Yeah, on the Sun Crusher.
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In other words, the less numerous GTVA Fleet would overwhelm the far more numerous, but beam-cannon-less Imperial Fleet. Also, we has Vasudans, they only have Trandoshans.
Until Qwi Xux gives everyone quantum shielded crystalline armor...
Then the GTVA will make meson bombs standard issue warheads on all missiles and torpedos.
The stuff that can survive a supernova?
Yes.
The Sun Crusher is possibly the most wicked superweapon, short of the Chaos Weapon.
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Ah, they just copied the supernova weapon idea from the Shivans. . . And they're using it wrong too ! Here, let the Shivans show them how it's done ! *countless Shivans flood SW stars*
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Then the GTVA will make meson bombs standard issue warheads on all missiles and torpedos.
But it can survive supernovas... :wtf:
Anyway, I'd like to see the Yuuzhan Vong getting owned by the Shivans.
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But it can survive supernovas... :wtf:
Yea, good point.
Anyway, I'd like to see the Yuuzhan Vong getting owned by the Shivans.
So would I. :D
Oh oh oh! And a SHIVAN JEDI!!
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Oh oh oh! And a SHIVAN JEDI!!
Palpatine vs. a Shivan Comm Node...
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In other words, the less numerous GTVA Fleet would overwhelm the far more numerous, but beam-cannon-less Imperial Fleet. Also, we has Vasudans, they only have Trandoshans.
Why use beams? Their heavy turbo lasers dish out a lot more damage than basic beams.
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Could turbolasers pierce the sheath shield?
I think they would be able to with repeated bombardment.
If the Hoth shield was strong enough to "repel any bombardment", why not the Lucifers?
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[Why use beams? Their heavy turbo lasers dish out a lot more damage than basic beams.
Range. Iirc most beams have a range of 1 to 2 clicks at least, whereas you generally see Star Wars capital ships closing the distance for broadsides and stuff. And since beams can pierce shields and deliver pinpoint damage, GTVA capital ships would be able to decapitate the bridge, or selectively damage sections of the ship, e.g engines. And in RoTS we see the clones reloading the heavy turbo lasers with "shells"(more likely to be a massive battery) while in FS2, the beams merely need a few seconds to recharge.
If the Hoth shield was strong enough to "repel any bombardment", why not the Lucifers?
The Lucifer ostensibly uses its beams for bombardment; if it uses its lasers as well, we need to remember that in the SWars universe, shields are used to deflect and block lasers, while the default "lasers" in FS2 are actually xasers which use X-Ray particles instead of focused light. This means that the laser weapons in FS2 would be able to eventually wear out the Hoth shield.
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Anyone have any idea how fast the heavy turbos fire? The much lighter ones in the earlier movies (chasing down the falcon) were much faster than the lightest beams. Also in the original movie, during the trench run we see more like WW2 era gunners.
If the Hoth shield was strong enough to "repel any bombardment", why not the Lucifers?
The Lucifer ostensibly uses its beams for bombardment; if it uses its lasers as well, we need to remember that in the SWars universe, shields are used to deflect and block lasers, while the default "lasers" in FS2 are actually xasers which use X-Ray particles instead of focused light. This means that the laser weapons in FS2 would be able to eventually wear out the Hoth shield.
Isn't star wars shield rating based on per second? You have to bash the shield down and keep bashing it or destroy the generator.
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Actually, since we're talking bout the Shivans here, whose to say they don't have a type of EMP-beam weapon... And besides, I think the Lucifer would be more than capable of breaking the shield and toasting the generator and the same time.
We've never actually seen a turbolaser fire in the earlier movies. At least, not from the gunner point of view, not afaik.
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The big guns that have the shells are flak cannons.
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Go watch Return of the Sith; in the opening part of the movie depicting the battle over Coruscant, there's a scene where a Venator and a Providence go up close to broadside each other; it shows the heavy turbolasers firing, ejecting some massive shell thing, and getting a new one slammed in.
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The Lucifer ostensibly uses its beams for bombardment; if it uses its lasers as well, we need to remember that in the SWars universe, shields are used to deflect and block lasers, while the default "lasers" in FS2 are actually xasers which use X-Ray particles instead of focused light. This means that the laser weapons in FS2 would be able to eventually wear out the Hoth shield.
And you base this assertion on?
Actually, since we're talking bout the Shivans here, whose to say they don't have a type of EMP-beam weapon... And besides, I think the Lucifer would be more than capable of breaking the shield and toasting the generator and the same time.
Who's to say they do have anything of the sort?
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The Lucifer ostensibly uses its beams for bombardment; if it uses its lasers as well, we need to remember that in the SWars universe, shields are used to deflect and block lasers, while the default "lasers" in FS2 are actually xasers which use X-Ray particles instead of focused light. This means that the laser weapons in FS2 would be able to eventually wear out the Hoth shield.
And you base this assertion on?
Tech room description for the Subach HL-7.
Actually, since we're talking bout the Shivans here, whose to say they don't have a type of EMP-beam weapon... And besides, I think the Lucifer would be more than capable of breaking the shield and toasting the generator and the same time.
Who's to say they do have anything of the sort?
Its simply a speculation.
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Sure, the tech description says it is, despite it not at all acting like one, but I was more interested in your assumption that it must be better or alternatively that a xaser is fundamentally different to a laser.
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Go watch Return of the Sith; in the opening part of the movie depicting the battle over Coruscant, there's a scene where a Venator and a Providence go up close to broadside each other; it shows the heavy turbolasers firing, ejecting some massive shell thing, and getting a new one slammed in.
That's just Lucas' retrofetish. Think he's doing a Patrick O'brian novel adaptation or something.
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Okey, we're getting there. I have come up with a bit of a flu so the fan fic may be deleyed a few days. Anyway...
Although beam weapons could severely pound the shields of an ISD, we need to know the shields strength. Shivan Tech differs from SW tech, meaning that SW shield strength could differ greatly from FS2 tech
Also, the hull of an ISD is supposed to be made up of some kind of advanced Durasteel or some other kind of powerfull alloy. SW episode 3 opening scene, we see a destroyed piece of a seperatist cruiser being blown into a Venator. The piece only makes a small scorched mark. However, freespace ships get holes blown in them just when a fighter crashes into it. You can see fire and/or smoke steaming out of the damaged area when they take damage.
Resources needed to create Terran ships mostly came from Earth, meaning either they are mostly made of Titanium are some other powerfull Earth alloy. SW metal is not native to the Sol system meaning it could be far stronger. Say, an ISD's shields are brought down, the beams still need to penetrate the hull. That video of an ISD v.s. an orion is not entirely accurate. Weapons and shielding are probably not the same as they are in the SW universe. I believe the person who made that vid is on this forum. He said that the ISD was not as good as the ones for future SW mods, so now doupt that vid is irrelivent to this debate.
In SW EAW, missiles or other weapons which do not utilize laser technology can bypass shields. Would flak cannons have a similar effect? Or can missiles be blocked by shields too?
Chances are, SW ships are more susseptable to beam cannons due to their more advanced shielding technology and metal alloys. However, Terran shielding tech was reverse engineered from Shivan tech, so who knows how long Shivans have been able to evolve their technology.
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Sure, the tech description says it is, despite it not at all acting like one, but I was more interested in your assumption that it must be better or alternatively that a xaser is fundamentally different to a laser.
A laser fires beams of coherent light, correct ? While a xaser fires beams of x-ray particles. While behaviorally they are identical, I doubt that shields calibrated to deflect and absorb laser beams would be able to do the same for xaser beams, because xaser beams are beams of x-ray particles, not light. So the shields in SW, while effective against laser cannons, may not have the same level of effectiveness against xasers.
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You're still providing no reasoning for your argument.
Star Wars lasers and FS xasers are obviously not what they say they are and actually act in a similar manner (colourful blobs). Hence, there is no reason to assume that one would be more effective against some specific shielding technology.
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A laser fires beams of coherent light, correct ? While a xaser fires beams of x-ray particles.
While it is correct to say that xasers fire x-ray particles (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave-particle_duality for more information), saying a xaser is not light isnt.
A xaser is a laser with a very high frequency, as an x-ray is only light with a very high frequency.
Visible light has a wavelength of 400-800nm, x-rays from 0,005-10nm
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Although beam weapons could severely pound the shields of an ISD, we need to know the shields strength. Shivan Tech differs from SW tech, meaning that SW shield strength could differ greatly from FS2 tech
1 hitpoint in FS is aprox 1.5625 megatons. According to the Harbinger at least.
A.k.a a lot. And conventional lasers don't penetrate shields, while beams do.
Also, the hull of an ISD is supposed to be made up of some kind of advanced Durasteel or some other kind of powerfull alloy. SW episode 3 opening scene, we see a destroyed piece of a seperatist cruiser being blown into a Venator. The piece only makes a small scorched mark. However, freespace ships get holes blown in them just when a fighter crashes into it. You can see fire and/or smoke steaming out of the damaged area when they take damage.
Resources needed to create Terran ships mostly came from Earth, meaning either they are mostly made of Titanium are some other powerfull Earth alloy. SW metal is not native to the Sol system meaning it could be far stronger. Say, an ISD's shields are brought down, the beams still need to penetrate the hull. That video of an ISD v.s. an orion is not entirely accurate. Weapons and shielding are probably not the same as they are in the SW universe. I believe the person who made that vid is on this forum. He said that the ISD was not as good as the ones for future SW mods, so now doupt that vid is irrelivent to this debate.
And the GTVA doens't have any more planets than Earth?
In SW EAW, missiles or other weapons which do not utilize laser technology can bypass shields. Would flak cannons have a similar effect? Or can missiles be blocked by shields too?
SW:EAW is generally not considered canon.
Chances are, SW ships are more susseptable to beam cannons due to their more advanced shielding technology and metal alloys. However, Terran shielding tech was reverse engineered from Shivan tech, so who knows how long Shivans have been able to evolve their technology.
What?
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Don`t you remember? In FS1 the GTA steals some cargo units containing sheilding technology, from which it develops fighter shields for its own craft.
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Let me clarify:
Chances are, SW ships are more susseptable to beam cannons due to their more advanced shielding technology and metal alloys.
What?
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I don't see how 'not coming from Earth' means that something would be tougher, stronger or any different. 99.9% of the universe is based on the same few elements.
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"Durasteel" is probably just some advanced alloy...
Like how steel is.
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Durasteel doesn't exist, meaning it could be far stronger than normal steel. I doupt 99.9% of elements in the universe are the same. SWG (Star Wars Galaxies) for example has several raw materials which are not found in the current Periodic Table. Take a look back in time... 4.4 billion years ago the world was just a toxic, sick world with no hope of life, until another planet, Thia (Or whatever its name is) crashed into earth. The two planets fussed, creating a brand new world. It is thanks to Thia that we have the elements on Earth today that allow life to exist in the way it currently does. Thia contained raw materials which made the world what it is today, thus before Thia crashed into Earth, Earth had very few resources. No doupt that other planets in the universe contain very different minerals, just as the difference between Earth and Thia before they collided. Just because these unknown alien elements don't come from Earth, doesn't mean you could instantly base any assumptions on them, but there is more than enough reason to conclude that any unknown alien element may be stronger than those found here on Earth. *Takes a deep breath*
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I doupt 99.9% of elements in the universe are the same.
Depends on what universe we`re talking about. It may not be the case in the Star Wars universe, but it sure is in the real one. And I can`t think of any evidence to suggest that FreeSpace deviates from the real universe in that respect.
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FreeSpace is in our galaxy 300 years in the future.
Star Wars is set a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. ;)
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Durasteel doesn't exist, meaning it could be far stronger than normal steel. I doupt 99.9% of elements in the universe are the same. SWG (Star Wars Galaxies) for example has several raw materials which are not found in the current Periodic Table. Take a look back in time... 4.4 billion years ago the world was just a toxic, sick world with no hope of life, until another planet, Thia (Or whatever its name is) crashed into earth. The two planets fussed, creating a brand new world. It is thanks to Thia that we have the elements on Earth today that allow life to exist in the way it currently does. Thia contained raw materials which made the world what it is today, thus before Thia crashed into Earth, Earth had very few resources. No doupt that other planets in the universe contain very different minerals, just as the difference between Earth and Thia before they collided. Just because these unknown alien elements don't come from Earth, doesn't mean you could instantly base any assumptions on them, but there is more than enough reason to conclude that any unknown alien element may be stronger than those found here on Earth. *Takes a deep breath*
But the GTVA also has control of many planets but Earth! And the Shivans have control of even more!
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It is clearly stated somewhere in FS2 that since the destruction of the Sol jump node, they have had little resources to mass produce weaponry and technology.
Yes, if Star Wars was in another galaxy, in a completly different time then there is no doupt that they would have different technology and completly different resources used to make them.
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It is clearly stated somewhere in FS2 that since the destruction of the Sol jump node, they have had little resources to mass produce weaponry and technology.
(http://cobolhacker.com/images/content/whos_under_there/dalek.jpg)
THERE IS NO DATA! AUTHENTICATE! AUTHENTICATE!
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Um... No. All the destroyers, over 15 fleets, the Colossus, and what about the Shivans?
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I fail to see how one pitiful solar system could have more resources than 28.
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BUT THE GTVA HAS A WHOLE GALAXY!!!
WHAT IS THIS?
(http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/images/Fsnodemap.jpg)
That clearly shows more than 1 system.
EDIT: I now get what Snail's saying, but I'll leave that there to prove my point.
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EDIT: I now get what Snail's saying, but I'll leave that there to prove my point.
My posts are infamous for being cryptic, rude, annoying or downright incomprehensible. I apologize for all of these cases, and for anything that may happen after now.
Besides, 32 solar systems (including Sol, the Nebula, the Binary System) hardly count as a galaxy.
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But still, many of them have many planets rich with resources, Capella being one.
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Yes, that's what I'm saying.
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I don't understand it either. But it states somewhere in the Campaign. Perhaps SoL is the only system with the right raw materials. There are plenty of other systems yes, but it doesn't mean they have everything the terrans need. Terran ships may all be composed of materials found on Earth.
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Only the Prometheus needed some gas that is found only in Sol. Not neceseraly Earth. And it was only the Prometheus weapon.
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And they found it in the nebula after Gamma Draconis, which seems to be pretty far from Earth.
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Only the Prometheus needed some gas that is found only in Sol. Not neceseraly Earth. And it was only the Prometheus weapon.
It was argon, apparently. Perhaps the GTVA could have found argon but decided it was not feasible to do so, because the conditions were too harsh for mining or it wasn't cost effective.
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Argon? Then it's really not a gas from Earth... Well, not in FS years. :D
And there's this NTF thing going on during that time, so the GTVA had to build more new and better fighters, than care for getting argon.
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There was a full 32 years to do so.
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No comment ... :doubt:
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Maybe the argon finding budget must have been cut for additional funding for the Colossus. Or they just didn`t really think too much about the Prometheus until the Shivans came along...
There are millions of equally unlikely explanations.
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Those "shells" I'm betting were canisters of gas used to produce the laser... which was prolly later replaced by a gas-feed system. Also, AFAIK, SW cap-ships / fighters are designed to rely mostly on their shields... meaning that since beams pierce shields, beams pwn all. I mean, a fighter goes down after a few blasts when it's shielded...
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since beams pierce shields
Do you want to try backing that up with some evidence? Keep in mind that SW shields are likely to function in a fundamentally different way to FS shields.
You've also assumed that FS fighter mounted weapons have similar power to SW fighter mounted weapons.
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since beams pierce shields
Do you want to try backing that up with some evidence? Keep in mind that SW shields are likely to function in a fundamentally different way to FS shields.
Try looking at your shields after your hull has been knocked down to 5% by a glancing blow ;)
You've also assumed that FS fighter mounted weapons have similar power to SW fighter mounted weapons.
No I didn't. I simply said SW fighters had most of their strength based on shields.
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You have failed to link that to SW shields. It also doesn't establish any relation between SW hull strength and FS hull strength.
You've got that beams go through FS shields and that SW shields are more sturdy than SW armour, which are two quite unrelated statements.
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You have failed to link that to SW shields. It also doesn't establish any relation between SW hull strength and FS hull strength.
You've got that beams go through FS shields and that SW shields are more sturdy than SW armour, which are two quite unrelated statements.
/me would like to point out that FS and SW are two quite unrelated fictitious universes. ;)
EDIT: In other words, there is no canon data on the intersection of the two universes. So, you will end up doing whatever you feel like. You feel that SW ships should be superior to FS ships. You will make (unfounded) assumptions about how the various ships etc perform. So will I. There can be no winning this argument. If you want to take it scientifically, the most you have to go on is references to gigatons (or the like) in any canon source on either side, as well as how easy it is to vaporize asteroids of a given size, if you can determine what they are made up of.
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Photon beam cannons. Photons are light, correct? Do SW shields protect from light?
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Photon = Light
Mirrors reflect Light
Therefore best defense = massive mirror.
:D :D :D
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Given that they stop 'laser cannon' fire, I'd think they would.
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Photon = Light
Mirrors reflect Light
Therefore best defense = massive mirror.
:D :D :D
Which they don't have. :nod: :lol:
Given that they stop 'laser cannon' fire, I'd think they would.
It's... different. So unless the shields black out the sun to the ISDs, photons pwn ISDs without the shields even noticing the beams.
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Please elaborate on why they're different. Laser cannons fire lasers by definition and lasers are made of photons.
If you're going to have a cry about them not actually being lasers, then you may wish to think about how a beam of photons would appear.
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But they're not lasers. Lasers are beams. These are plasma, and called lasers only because SW is ancient.
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Now if you were talking blasters, that would be a coherent argument. But you aren't, so it isn't.
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Please demonstrate a beam of photons travelling through a vacuum observable from the sides.
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1. Photon beam cannons dont need to fire photons, as baby oil isnt required to be made out of babys (though sesame oil is required to be made out of sesame). Note that Lasers (like mounted on fighters) arent shield piercing.
2. Neutrinos for example are matter piericing, meaning: They simple fly through, (nearly) without any interaction. Even if some Aliens come and build their own ships, that wont change, neutrinos are (nearly) flying through ALL matter.
As a result, its not unreasonable to say that FS beams are piercing SW shields as well.
Its not certain that the shield piercing abilities against FS shields is just a major flaw of those either.
Well..... its all freaking fiction, not like someone like Alastair Reynolds put some serious scientific thought in these fictional universes.
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You're suggesting that photon beam cannons fire neutrinos?
Neutrinos might pierce the shields, but they are extremely unlikely to actually interact with the ship. They also wouldn't emit light in all directions. In any case, it would be called a particle beam, which is a much more consistent description.
Fighter mounted 'lasers' obviously are not really lasers. They travel at a few times the speed of sound in air.
For that matter, neither are SW lasers, nor are FS beams.
So again, evidence please.
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You're suggesting that photon beam cannons fire neutrinos?
No, I suggest that the given counter arguments are void.
It can be a basic law for beamweapons to penetrate any energyfield without loss, and different technologies wont be able to change that.
Of course we can say if its real that FS beams can penetrate DW shields:
Its not, cause both are only fiction.
Illogical fiction without a lot of continuity and real world physics.
In the end its always up to the author which he likes better.
You can only argue what decisions of the author contradicts all given canon the least.
FS beams being shield piercing violates neither SW canon nor FS canon.
However, FS beams being not shield piercing against a different shield technolgy doesnt really violate SW canon or FS canon either. (at least only very very slightly)
My statements earlier were meant to show that special shield piercing weapons are not violating sw canon.
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This will never reach a resolve.
There's simply no basis for comparison.
Except we're (GTVA) better. .
Just kidding, photon beams aren't laser beams or the tech room and command would say "Fire the laser beams!!" wouldn't they.
Although the deathstar superlaser or Suncrusher would probably finish the GTVA off. (One squid cruiser exed at the battle of Endor with one shot and shields raised)
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Ya, plus the shield issue is virtually impossible to solve. Too many no limits fallacy. If they can pierce the shields then it'd be a worthwhile battle, if they can't piece, then I don't think theres anything in freespace that would cause a major problem for the empire.
Honestly I don't what other verses would be good against freespace. I was going to mention hammerverse, but they use TT level weaponary :blah:
And anything higher would walk all over the shivans
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Ya, plus the shield issue is virtually impossible to solve. Too many no limits fallacy. If they can pierce the shields then it'd be a worthwhile battle, if they can't piece, then I don't think theres anything in freespace that would cause a major problem for the empire.
This is why it makes sense to have beams pierce SW shields: it's the only way it's going to work. Otherwise, you get "ZOMG, all bow before the mighty Empire <insert Ewok worship chant here>, the Empire pwnz all!!" Which is extremely boring from either side of the fight: you either always lose, or always win. Note how quickly the GTA reverse-engineered the Shivan shield tech. The reason could technically be because we were already playing around with shield tech and had half an idea of what to look for (GTI shield array mentioned somewhere), but the real reason was because shielded Shivans = endgame for the GTA / PVN; it'd be exactly like GTVA vs Imperials. No contest. boooooring. :P
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(GTI shield array mentioned somewhere)
Yeah, the MX-50 tech description mentions that.
"ZOMG, all bow before the mighty Empire <insert Ewok worship chant here>, the Empire pwnz all!!"
:yes: