[Klaustrophobia]

This would be an advanced sensitivity control for joysticks (or other controls it might extend to, for that matter) that allows for varying the response over the range of motion.  If anyone has played Lock-On: Modern Air Combat, their joystick setup is what I'm talking about.  There is an adjustable S-curve that flattens out in the middle and gets steeper near the edges of the range of motion.  This allows for more precise aiming adjustment while not impacting full turns.  The deadzone and axis "shift" (basically widens or narrows the range of motion) are also adjustable in LOMAC.   Now I have no idea if this has been looked at before or is even possible.  Thoughts?

[Nuke]

input needs a total overhaul as far as im concerned. but i usually just use ch control manager to increase the sensitivity in the center of the stick and ramp up fast twards the outside. most high end joysticks let you do this.

[Sushi]

I know Wanderer has played with joystick curves a couple of times, he's the expert I think.

[Nuke]

oh and the term is gain

[Klaustrophobia]

i'm going to assume the majority of players don't use CH equipment.  i know i don't have that kind of money.  saitek doesn't have this ability, at least on the versions of software i am using.

[Dilmah G]

Yes, I would *like* a pair of CH Pedals and a nice stick setup, but I'm stuck with a Saitek Cyborg Evo with a stiff spring, which makes precise aiming impossible since the spring doesn't like moving.

[Mongoose]

Bah, who needs precise aiming when you plant yourself 50 meters behind your target?

[Bob-san]

Bah, who needs precise aiming when you plant yourself 50 meters behind your target?

*Shrug* All the extra climbing and diving ought to loosen up your stick!

In other news, I agree that it'd be an awesome and useful feature for FSO to support more advanced input control. I'd personally like to see a bit of add'l support for Logicrap joysticks; first third of the range being low-sensitivity, second third being normal sensitivity, and last third being full-out. Ya know, because the sensors sorta stink in Logicrap sticks.

[Dilmah G]

*Shrug* All the extra climbing and diving ought to loosen up your stick!

Funnily enough, I think that was what wore out the spring.

[Wanderer]

Game currently uses following system:

Output = Input ^ (3.0 - (Joy_sensitivity / 4.5))

Where input and output are values 0 .. 1 (essentially describing the range of motion AFTER deadzones have been capped) and Joy_sensitivity is the number of lit blobs in the options screens control sensitivity section minus one (0 .. 9). So you get sensitivity curves between x^1 to x^3. If larger range is hoped for (is it?) then we'll have to see what can be done.

[Klaustrophobia]

it's not the overall range, but the ability for the gain (as i am told ) to vary at different amounts of input.  i.e., x^ 3 at the edge of the stick's range and x^1 just outside the deadzone.  even something primitive like a "two-stage" axis would be cool, if it can't be done as a smooth, continuous thing.

[Wanderer]

Well the 's' curves described sound (and also seem to be) pretty much exactly like x to nth power curves

[Nuke]

i'm going to assume the majority of players don't use CH equipment.  i know i don't have that kind of money.  saitek doesn't have this ability, at least on the versions of software i am using.

ive owned an x45 and an x52, and i coulda sworn they had a gain adjustment. of course i could be thinking about my old sidewinder (ive owned more joysticks than i can remember).

ch controllers are fairly durable, but they arent really that innovative. the throttle has a nice 2 axis thumbstick and the fighterstick has hardware trim knobs, not the most comfy stick yo use though. saitek on the other hand had a nice feel, has the independant trim wheels are nice if the games support them and the trackpoint mouse is a clever touch, the dual position trigger was nice too. thing i didnt like about it was the single spring in the main joystick. you couldnt get a feel over how much x and how much y you were using, the only way you could find center on an axis was to center both of them. as for all usb joysticks, theyre all inaccurate. if you get 10 bit precision you were lucky. older joysticks used to have 16 bit accuracy (they used the 16 bit adcs on your sound card). even the ch hardware only has 8 bit precision. the pro version of the x52 has 10 bit but, i think that the gimbal design, single spring and the internal mechanics kinda render that useless.

[Wanderer]

Can you draw or otherwise depict/describe/function for your 'ideal' input -> output curve (call it gain if you must)?

[Bob-san]

Can you draw or otherwise depict/describe/function for your 'ideal' input -> output curve (call it gain if you must)?

That said, it will go flat at max, which would occur early.

[Herra Tohtori]

That's a bad curve. It'll be rather un-intuitive as it has a non-continuous profile and thus will introduce a sharp increase at the sensitivity at some point, which is bad, trust me on this one.

This is one possibility:

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This is another:


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And a third one:

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[Nuke]

remember that mechanical linkages in the joystick can very greatly. most joysticks directly rotate a linear potentiometer with a gimbal. so the number of degrees the stick is turned is proportional to the axis value. other joysticks (such as the x52) convert rotational force to a linear force with rack and pinion gearing, which articulates a hall effect sensor in relation to a strong magnet. assuming the reading from the sensor is linear (which may not be the case as magnetism falls off inversely to the square of distance (i think)) then it too may be proportional to the axis value reported to the game. however i have seen joysticks which use more complex mechanical linkages to expand the rotation of the potentiometer, which may introduce non linearity. one notable example were the ms sidewinder joysticks which used an optical sensor and the curve seemed more tangential.

@ht
i rather find the s shaped curves rather annoying in that they gain sensitivity twards the extents of the range (which i consider the brute force area used only for hard turns) that could be better utilized elsewhere in the curve. traditionally ive used a linear curve. but ive discovered how advantageous having a big area to work with twards the center can be, so you could fine tune your control. so of those 2 curves id perfer the second (all be it closer to linear).

[Herra Tohtori]

@ht
i rather find the s shaped curves rather annoying in that they gain sensitivity twards the extents of the range (which i consider the brute force area used only for hard turns) that could be better utilized elsewhere in the curve. traditionally ive used a linear curve. but ive discovered how advantageous having a big area to work with twards the center can be, so you could fine tune your control. so of those 2 curves id perfer the second (all be it closer to linear).

I quite agree, linear control curve would be perfect if not for the deadzones, both mechanical and electrical.

X52 standard version has a control curve rather close to x^2, probably due to raw Hall effect sensor readings, and I actually use a logarithmic control axis curve in IL-2 to turn it more towards linear one. You might be interested in the fact that the in-game control curve setup there only goes up to 100, but you can manually set greater numbers for a range sensitivity in conf.ini, like this:

Code: [Select]

[rts_joystick]
1X=0 133 148 146 144 133 123 115 109 104 100 0
1Y=0 133 148 146 144 133 123 115 109 104 100 0
1Z=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1RX=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1RY=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1RZ=0 33 66 83 89 92 95 97 98 99 100 0
1U=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1V=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
FF=0
which IMO works pretty fine with the standard X52.

[chief1983]

In IL-2, I can never decide if I like HT's first or third one more.  They both work well.

[Wanderer]

Sorta odd.. i have preferred setting X45 as follows in il-2

Code: [Select]

[rts_joystick]
RZ=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
FF=0
1X=0 1 2 4 7 12 19 30 50 70 100 0
1Y=0 1 2 4 7 12 19 30 50 70 100 0
1RZ=0 1 2 4 7 12 19 30 50 70 100 0