[Apollo]

I have a question.

Viewed as a cruiser, the UEC Sanctus is quite impressive. It has decent point-defenses, relatively heavy armor, and a good amount of firepower. At close-range, the Sanctus can destroy a Fenris, Leviathan, Hyperion, and even a Deimos. However, the Sanctus is almost as large as a corvette (and its table classifies it as one), and it lacks the armor and extreme resistance to light weaponry that actual corvettes have. When you consider its size (and therefore cost) the Sanctus seems much less powerful.

Now, the Sanctus's tech description says that the Federation built it with enough cargo space to double as a military freighter. I imagine that this accounts for its large size. This makes sense when I consider that the Feds weren't expecting to fight a war, but it still seems like a poor choice. I'm not an expert, but I'd guess that without the large cargo bay, the Sanctus could either be built smaller or built into a true corvette. So, why did the UEF design it that way?

I don't presume to know everything about Blueplanet. There may be some other reason for the Sanctus's size, and I can imagine that BP's writers might have wanted to avoid making the Sanctus as powerful as a Chimera or Bellerophon (since the GTVA is militarily superior to the UEF), or as cheap as a Hyperion. Again, I'm not insulting the mod. It just seemed a little strange the the Federation Navy would limit the Sanctus's effectiveness in that way, even with their Ubuntu philosophy.

[Droid803]

Because for non-wartime going about, having the ability to haul cargo on a well-armed frame is a good thing?

[Aesaar]

The Sanctus is only a cruiser because the UEF doesn't have a corvette designation.  It is a corvette, just a light one, and is inferior to the Deimos in most cases.\

The reason why it's not heavily armed or armored is because it's an old platform, probably older than Capella, and that pre-return Sol only required policing and counter-terrorism.

[General Battuta]

Did you know that right now the United States military is engaged in building a whole horde of cluster**** platforms seriously compromised by their attempts to do everything at once?

My point is not so much that the Sanctus is one of these platforms as it is this: military assets go through a design process in which they are tugged by competing requirements dictated by competing doctrines. If there is anything that screams 'this is a fictional, contrived universe!' it's a universe full of designs that make sense and work together well.

In fact I think this plays into a broader discussion about Blue Planet's fiction. If you read the history of decisive battles like Midway you will find them full of things that seem implausible and nonsensical: admirals arguing each other to a standstill or breaking down in near-tears on their own flag bridges because they misread a message, flights of attack craft missing their targets entirely or wasting time in just such a fashion as to fortuitously strike at the right moment. We want to write FreeSpace fiction that feels naturalistic, and that includes the naturalism of competing factions within a military, political doctrines going in and out of fashion, designs being hashed up by new administrations, admirals making decisions mandated as much by politics as tactical exigency, admirals making decisions that seem (given perfect information) insanely aggressive or risibly timid, whole militaries and nations acting out of needs that from some angles simply boil down to the simple momentum of systems trying to perpetuate themselves. (A lot of the latter was drawn from Rian's studies in political science at MIT.)

Specifically about the Sanctus: it's really not a bad platform. It can even fight pretty well in the right context, when it's not thrown into a heavy-tonnage fight. (The Vatican in Darkest Hour can make an enormous difference!) Consider a peacetime navy trying to sell a spaceframe - 'oh,' they say, 'it can transport troops, and carry sensitive cargo without the need for an escort! We could lease it out and help the economy! And look, it's so big, we can sell the spaceframes off for just about anything when we don't need them any more!'

[crizza]

Wasn't there something about a wartime upgrade of the Sanctus?

[Apollo]

Wasn't there something about a wartime upgrade of the Sanctus?

The Sanctus has a wartime configuration, but I'm not sure how big of a modification it is.

[SaltyWaffles]

Wasn't there something about a wartime upgrade of the Sanctus?

The Sanctus has a wartime configuration, but I'm not sure how big of a modification it is.

Yeah, I suppose this is probably the heart of the OP's question. If the Sanctus has all these benefits as a peacetime design, why not utilize that extra space in wartime for things like more armament, armor, limited carrier capacity, Karuna-level torpedo spam, electronic warfare, or whatever? In the 18 months the 1st and 2nd Fleets had while the Jovians held the line, why didn't they give the Sanctus a much-needed refit?

In terms of capability, a Sanctus is like a corvette-sized cruiser, but one with good point defenses. It works well in a supporting role, but not as well as a Deimos or, arguably, an Aeolus. While its overall design makes a lot of sense in the setting and the faction, I would think that even the UEF could turn the Sanctus into a stronger beast if given 18 months and extensive info about the enemy's capabilities.

[The E]

That's assuming that they a) didn't do that, that b) the GTVA would not prioritize such uprated cruisers, and, of course, c) that all you can see as a player is all there is to see, and of course, that there is yard space available to do the necessary modifications in the first place.

[Dragon]

Actually, I think that the Sanctii (is that right?) you see are actually updated from their peacetime configuration, but those changes are relatively minor, whatever could be done in the field. The wartime configuration is a much more serious refit, with much stronger weapons.

[MatthTheGeek]

Well yeah. Remember most of the UEF frigates weren't even really loaded with live ammunition by the time the UEF received the first probes from GTVA space. I would be surprised if most Sanctus cruisers in activity were equipped with Warhammers in their peacetime configurations.

[SaltyWaffles]

That's assuming that they a) didn't do that, that b) the GTVA would not prioritize such uprated cruisers, and, of course, c) that all you can see as a player is all there is to see, and of course, that there is yard space available to do the necessary modifications in the first place.

Wouldn't that make Sanctus cruisers notably space-inefficient? Although, come to think of it, Custos patrol boats are much larger than Cretheus patrol boats, and all they have to show for it is a pair of slow-firing, low-grade torpedo launchers (oh, wait; ECM capability. That might be the big difference).

Well yeah. Remember most of the UEF frigates weren't even really loaded with live ammunition by the time the UEF received the first probes from GTVA space. I would be surprised if most Sanctus cruisers in activity were equipped with Warhammers in their peacetime configurations.

Point taken. I guess the confusion comes from the differences between the Karuna and Sanctus (in their wartime configurations), given the differences in size and capability/armament.

It kind of makes me that much more appreciative of the Orion design--it became by far the best capital ship brawler in the GTVA by mounting 6 heavy beams without any noticeable sacrifices outside of some warhead interception capability. (wait, isn't the Orion class about 66 years old at this point? Holy crap, that's amazing.)

[MatthTheGeek]

Yap. They're also nearly all decommissioned, aside from the Carthage and definitely not more than one or two others.

[Phantom Hoover]

That's still a testament to the adaptability of the basic design.

[Dragon]

Pretty much the only thing left from the original Carthage is the skeleton and the nameplate. The other Orions in service either serve in this kind of role, or as backwater system guards, in case you can't have the fighters fly off an Arcadia or a planetary base.

[General Battuta]

there is a lot of wrong information about how the GTVA employs its orions in the above posts; they still have the equivalent of Surface Action Groups, special taskings built around Orions

[The E]

In many ways, the Raynor/Titan combo is a refinement of the Hecate/Orion combo of earlier times; while there probably are no new Orions being built, they would only be decommissioned when the replacement has finished its acceptance trials. Also note that decommissioning does not mean "sent to the breakers", mothballing them is a much more likely thing for the GTVA to do (after all, the Orion has some sentimental value attached to it, and unlike the Battleships of WW2, their combat role hasn't disappeared).

[crizza]

So, in case of a future invasion...will the Orions be used as fire ships or to bolster the rear guard?

[headdie]

So, in case of a future invasion...will the Orions be used as fire ships or to bolster the rear guard?

I suspect it would in part depend on the level and type of opposition and how their deployment would benefit the GTVA battle line but I suspect their biggest usage would be rear guard work, stick one behind a friendly jump node and those beams have a nice view of the enemies engines as they jump in with minimal chance of return fire.

[MatthTheGeek]

In case of a future invasion, as in Shivan invasion ? If the GTVA gets to there, and have failed to contain the threat, then they'd have already lost and any surviving Orion would probably be used to carry refugees for an exodus.

[redsniper]

Use 'em as node busters, like the Bastion.