[Flak]

I believe she wanted to make sure she got all her men on the station back before pulling out. Even in the US army, no man is left behind. Steele on the other hand, already expected the Neptune station to fall anyway, and already prepared it for self destruct to prevent capture, though even he didn't expect saboteurs to mess that up.

[crizza]

Two Hecate Battlegroups? The Vengeance and the Phoenicia are one battlegroup though.

[Gray113]

Though if she had escaped would she have been blamed for the station not being scuttled? As it stands the blame falls on Steele for the loss of the station but would he have used Lopez to deflect blame from himself? Leaving before critical objectives are completed is a court marshal offense as everyone who has jumped out early knows.

The Vengeance and the Phoenicia are one battlegroup

My bad I thought they each had their own battlegroup.

[Flak]

Don't forget 4 more are waiting for deployment, there are the Implacable and Agamemnon as well as the Pallas and Illium. I think there is a Titan and a Raynor in there, not just Hecates.

[Aesaar]

No.  She wasn't responsible for the enemy agents, not could she be blamed for their actions.  Steele isn't stupid, and he's not the type that constantly shuffles blame around.

BTW, "No man gets left behind" is a nice sounding phrase that doesn't actually reflect reality, especially not in wartime.

[crizza]

Don't forget 4 more are waiting for deployment, there are the Implacable and Agamemnon as well as the Pallas and Illium. I think there is a Titan and a Raynor in there, not just Hecates.

Agamemnon is a Raynor, Implacable a Titan, the Pallas and Illium are most likely a Hecate/Hecate combo, or one is a Orion...

[The E]

The thing is, Aesaar, in light of her previously exemplary service, and her known service record, it is far more likely that Lopez will be retired rather than court-martialed. "Return with your shield, or on it" is not a great motivator; Knowing that making the sort of judgement call a flag officer is supposed to be making may land you in front of a tribunal if you fail is sending the completely wrong signals.

[Aesaar]

Except it wasn't her judgement call to make.  She didn't just make a command decision that didn't pan out, she actively disobeyed a direct order from a superior officer.  Her insubordination lost the destroyer.  It isn't something a disciplined military can overlook.

It's a discipline issue.  Had she lost the Carthage before being ordered to retreat, then she would have failed, but it would be like you said.  But she didn't.

[Luis Dias]

Of course it is her judgement to make. Hierarchy in every military is not absolute. A subordinate should disobey if he thinks the orders he is given are insane, unhuman, etc.

[Aesaar]

No.  Just no.  You don't get to disobey lawful orders just because you disagree with them.  And Steele's order to retreat was 100% lawful.  This is the very foundation of a disciplined military.

Had Lopez still managed to leave, it might be excusable.  A talk from Steele, no need to make a big deal about it because no harm was done.  But that's not what happened.

[Buckshee Rounds]

No.  She wasn't responsible for the enemy agents, not could she be blamed for their actions.  Steele isn't stupid, and he's not the type that constantly shuffles blame around.

BTW, "No man gets left behind" is a nice sounding phrase that doesn't actually reflect reality, especially not in wartime.

Very true, but the phrase applies more to infantry warfare. Lopez was responsible for ten thousand lives minimum at HFH, it's not a case of 'no man left behind' so much as the lesser of two evils: lose the Carthage or lose thousands of personnel. There were a fair few transports that were able to evacuate Neptune HQ because Lopez chose to stay behind and cover them (and a fair few Hermes launched from the Carthage too). If the Carthage had jumped out the losses could have potentially been much greater. It's a judgement call and she was probably right in believing it was better to lose the Carthage (which the Feds have practically no use for whatsoever) than to lose thousands of trained personnel or have them captured.

No.  Just no.  You don't get to disobey lawful orders just because you disagree with them.

Even the military recognises that the situation on the battlefield can change to a point where standing orders are no longer relevant. This gets taught in basic training, it's a fundamental aspect of warfare: you can't keep charging in a straight line when you're being flanked, you have to react to take advantage of the situation. If that means disobeying orders then so be it. Lopez had very good reasons for disobeying, that can't be overlooked.

EDIT: Retarded spelling

[crizza]

Thats the same with the Phoenicia...
The ship was ordered to hold the node against the Sath, but choose to jump out.
Wheres the point to get wasted if you can run and fight another day?!
Lopez should've jumped out, she don't wanted to continue to fight in Sol, so when the order came, she should've jumped clear...

[Aesaar]

Even the military recognises that the situation on the battlefield can change to a point where standing orders are no longer relevant. This gets taught in basic training, it's a fundamantal aspect of warfare: you can't keep charging in a straight line when you're being flanked, you have to react to take advantage of the situation. If that means disobeying orders then so be it. Lopez had very good reasons for disobeying, that can't be overlooked.

  These weren't standing orders, as the intercepted dialogue makes clear.  Steele was in direct contact with her telling her to retreat.  She refused.  This is insubordination, and is pretty much as black and white as it can get.  Maybe excusable if she had still managed to leave, but she didn't.  And this is a fundamental aspect of warfare:  if your superior officer tells you to do something, you do it, no matter how much you disagree with it (the exception is if the order in question isn't legal, which doesn't apply here).  Again, this is the very foundation of a disciplined military.

Moreover, Steele had a clear picture of the battle.  It's not like he was giving her an order that he wouldn't give if he was there.  She didn't choose to stay behind because she felt she had a clearer view of the battle, she stayed to assuage her conscience.


This:

"I am not finished. If I give you a direct order to fly your ships into a solar flare, you will obey that order. You will obey it whether I give you a seventy-page strategic directive explaining our urgent need for a fleet of ghost ships or a simple six-word coded imperative. You will obey the order with alacrity and without question, and you will do so with enthusiasm and skill. If you cannot meet these standards then you are not the woman I need in command of my point battle group."

is how it happens.  This attitude is how you run a disciplined military.  It is absolutely essential.

[Buckshee Rounds]

That's totally different; the Phoenicia was doing literally nothing in slowing down or stopping the Sathanas, jumping out was a no-brainer. Lopez had to weigh the lives of thousands against the loss of a destroyer and decided it wasn't worth leaving. I dout the Carthage would've fought another day anyway, the thing was a wreck waiting for the scrapyard.

[crizza]

Yeah, but thanks to her decision her crewmen are now PoWs.

[Gray113]

More to the point when Lopez was ordered to get out the battle conditions were (to her) still favourable. The Frigate had withdrawn with loses to its cruiser screen and the artillery was contained. The order came through when her position could be held to allow the evacuation to proceed successfully and she still had clear in her mind the previous orders that Steele gave that resulted in the deaths of thousands of her subordinates. Her withdraw at this point would have cost the lives of thousands more. As I said before Lopez should never have been left to defend Neptune as she was already compromised by grief and the desire to save the station but she was not stupid and would have withdrawn if the situation had merited it.

She just didn't know (and Steele neither) that a stealth fighter was positioned to call in a massive bomber strike right under her engines and it is a testament to the planners of the Fedyeen that they knew exactly where and when to strike.

Under those conditions the GTVA could not hold Lopez fully responsible. If they did they would loose the trust of every captain in the fleet.

[Aesaar]

Under those conditions the GTVA could not hold Lopez fully responsible. If they did they would loose the trust of every captain in the fleet.

  No, it wouldn't.  Not punishing her would undermine the chain of command and encourage the notion that if you disagree with your superior officer you can disobey his/her orders.  Your superior is not required to explain to you each and every order he/she gives you.  A good officer will listen to your misgivings, but he/she is free to ignore them, and you, no matter how much you disagree, must do as you're told.  That's how a military works.

Lopez ignored this, which lead to the loss of an important military asset.  It wasn't up to her to determine whether her ship was worth the lives on that station on not.  That decision was up to Steele.  He believed it was.  End of story.  Her failure to obey is punishable by court-martial and possible (though unlikely, in this case) execution.

[Gray113]

But Steele left her in command of an important military asset in a mission where she was unfit to command and her ship was unfit to combat the forces ranged against her. The Fedyeen recognised this and took advantage, Steele should have also known this (indeed maybe he did).

The superior is responsible in these circumstances in this case the superior is Steele. Who should have had both Lopez and what was left of her battlegroup far out of the field of engagement.

Its easy to say she should have left when Steele ordered her but by that time the damage was already done. Lopez was to far gone to trust Steele's judgement after what he had done to her unit and was not going to sacrifice any more lives.

[General Battuta]

Lopez would be court-martialed for the loss of her ship, and in the context of the modern GTVA military, she almost certainly would be found guilty and punished severely. While initiative and independence are valuable and even desirable traits in any commander, the post-Capella GTVA is all about exigency, the ability and willingness to make extremely tough Sophie's Choice decisions without hesitation or half measures. Lopez would be held to that standard.

Moreover, disobeying a direct order from a superior officer is an act that can usually only be justified when the order is immoral. While I suppose Lopez could make a case here, in the climate of the contemporary GTVA military, she'd lose.

[Buckshee Rounds]

Yeah, but thanks to her decision her crewmen are now PoWs.

Thanks to her a large amount of crew on the station escaped in addition to those of the Carthage that made it out on the Hermes escape pods. If she had left the amount of captured personnel could have potentially been much greater.

Insubordination is acceptable if the order given by superiors is unlawful. I agree that given Lopez was given a fully lawful order she was not in a position to disobey it. However, given she was able to save personnel at the expense of her ship and how decorated and respected she is I'd wager she's looking at dismissal at best, court-martial at worst.

Legally speaking, yes she could be imprisoned or executed, but given that she put the lives of her crew above those of an important asset (one which was likely looking to be mothballed upon return to GTVA space) I doubt the higher-ups will pursue the maximum penalty. At the very least public opinion will mean she'll live.

EDIT: damn you ninjas