[Luis Dias]

Your post is sensible IMO T-Man, I also think unreasonable to ask the BP team to even consider the option of substituting tracks for two main reasons, one that which Battuta alluded to, it will ease some fans, it will irate others (so why bother?), two it's just too much work and in some cases almost impossible (the Icarus scene is synchronized with its soundtrack for example, and so is Freedom Fighters).

I think this discussion is nevertheless very useful for it brings to the table a question that we as members of a wider society should think about, namely what constitutes copyright, intelectual property, fair use, their limits, common sense, etc., and as members of a modding forum, what kind of standards should we uphold, what is reasonable or not, etc.

In the case of BP well, it's hard. The ambitions of the bp crew were immense, and it's hard to emotionally convey all the mind states without borrowing the very best that is out there. I have a curious fact to share. You do know that in Tenebra we get in Universal Truth the 2001 soundtrack Requiem (youtube link here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgqI32JX_jY), and it is the perfect track at the perfect spot. What you might not know is that Kubrick himself used this music without permission from its author, Ly Ligeti (who then went on to successfully sue him and eventually settled).

So this is a very old conversation indeed.

[General Battuta]

The discussion has basically been 'closed' since the beginning, in that the team is aware of the issue and we are constantly thinking about music choices and copyright risk. We're going to keep doing what we've been doing - seeking out alternatives when realistic and invoking Fair Use to the extent that we can.

[SypheDMar]

That's great but for future scenarios, is there really a point in invoking Fair Use? Darius's remixes are fantastic, and I'm sure he can make anything from Jamendo, CCMixter, Incometech, etc. without drawing unnecesary controversy every release cycle.

I'm just being a devil's advocate while supporting royalty-free and free music. I understand that it's a grey area, but I don't think the BP team would get into any legal trouble. On the other hand, I can foresee no future complaints about the music when BP stops using commercial music while still getting exceptional praise because of Darius, Belisarius et al's talents.

[Scotty]

As has been alluded to throughout the thread, the reason that this music gets used at all is because neither Darius nor Belisarius have unlimited time to produce music for BP.

[SypheDMar]

That is understandable. My argument is that instead of using commercial music in the future, BP can use royalty-free or free music to substitute when time is limited.

The one assumption I'm making is that for every commercial music that is being considered, there is an equally good/better royalty-free alternative easily available on the internet.

[General Battuta]

That is a wrong assumption.

[SypheDMar]

It probably is wrong, because y'all wouldn't use commercial music otherwise, right? But I had to throw that out there just for future reference when another one of these threads appear.

[swashmebuckle]

Yeah, you'll be hard pressed to find a stock drop-in replacement for any track that has had a scene cut around it. The normal process is to make your rough cut using the temp track, then show that to the composer and get your custom soundtrack demo created, then reedit with that music, then make needed changes to the music and record it, then re-edit everything together with the final music doing lots and lots of passes.

Some directors do get attached to certain temp tracks and just end up using them, but all the talk of "nothing will ever replace the unique epicness of using this exact bombastic hollywood trailer at this exact moment" is pretty silly IMO. You can always make a better match by starting from scratch. Obviously the exception is when the director actually wants to invoke the audience's previous experience with a well known piece of music, but I don't think that's what the BP team is going for.

[Aardwolf]

So what would happen if I were to hit the 'pause' button in the middle of one of these sequences?

Yes I realize I could just test this myself, but I'm also curious whether the devs know / have considered it

Edit: As an aside, the only "borrowed" musiks I had heard before were "Vortal Combat" (which I didn't pick up on), "Aqua Vitae" (which was fitting), and "Rise" which is the only one that felt out-of-place. Well no, "Endgame" felt out of place too, but I think that was intended.

[niffiwan]

So what would happen if I were to hit the 'pause' button in the middle of one of these sequences?

Yes I realize I could just test this myself, but I'm also curious whether the devs know / have considered it

My experiences with pausing in the Vassago's Dirge intro say - the music gets horribly desynchronised. It's something I'd like to investigate further and hopefully fix (at some point...)

[SypheDMar]

Yeah, you'll be hard pressed to find a stock drop-in replacement for any track that has had a scene cut around it...

Yes, it only applies to previously used tracks. For future ones, there's no reason to base it on tracks that aren't free.

... the talk of "nothing will ever replace the unique epicness of using this exact bombastic hollywood trailer at this exact moment" is pretty silly IMO. You can always make a better match by starting from scratch.

Indeed, which has been my point!

After reading what swashmebuckle wrote, I don't think there's anything wrong with my assumptions after all. If non-free music was not sought after in the first place, there could be so many free music alternatives that can fit a situation better.

[swashmebuckle]

I think it's just a resource management / bang for your buck situation. There is limited time to scour the internet for royalty-free music and limited money to hire musicians, and working within those limitations has led to the current situation. Music from other games or film trailers is near at hand, checks the boxes for what the missions demand, and is of a high enough quality that it won't distract from what they're trying to do. Is it worth delaying a release for an indefinite amount of time or laying down a healthy chunk of money in order to get around these issues?

[Luis Dias]

I said this earlier and I'll say it again, it's really frustrating to harvest the internet for free soundtrack / music / soundbytes, etc. 99.9% of it is either trash, irrelevant, not-so-good, nothing-to-do-with-it-at-all stuff. It's a really hard thing in itself. Just because it is "free" and "out there" doesn't mean the cataloguing nature of the internet is already in such a state that allows anyone to retrieve valuable assets right now. I think we are still far from that point in 2014.

[redsniper]

Just want to drop in and say, I wholly approve of the use of bombastic overdone trailer music in BP. "Real" movie/game music just isn't epic enough IMO. I like my entertainment maximalist, kthx.

[borizz]

ey im a fan doz that mean i can torrent anythin i like coz im not into makin profit see?

You Dutch? If so, then yes, basically.

Anyway, I liked the music. Icarus did pull me back to DX:HR and what a great game that was, so it made me space out on like half the intro movie. Had to restart it. But keep on doing what you're doing. It's great.

[swashmebuckle]

Just want to drop in and say, I wholly approve of the use of bombastic overdone trailer music in BP. "Real" movie/game music just isn't epic enough IMO. I like my entertainment maximalist, kthx.

Just saw this, sorry for the late reply.

The interesting thing for me is that the trailer music that people associate with epicness is actually very minimalistic--it can be accurately described with a very very small amount of information (assuming an adequate musical vocabulary). Sometimes that's what a director might want for a big moment. An actual maximalist approach to the music in scenes of srs epicness has the potential to distract the viewer and detract from the overall experience if not handled well. On the other hand, it can also blow the roof off the place and melt the overwhelmed audience's brains into puddles of rapturous/despondent goo, which is something that trailer tunes can only dream of.

I am not trying to knock on this sort of music at all--it is the way it is for very good reasons, and it does its job very well. It sits in the foreground and has minimal informational content by design. It's there to be talked (and/or yelled) over, and the audience is supposed to be busy constructing the plot of the movie from and being enticed by the aesthetic appeal of the film clips while it is playing. It is very handy, but the fact that it has so little to do outside of setting the tone means it's pretty close to stock by nature, so I would argue that given the ambition and skill of the BP team, sticking with trailer music indefinitely would be selling their creation short.

TL/DR: Trailer music can be big, but maximalist entertainment it ain't.