Author Topic: Shivan Manifesto  (Read 20674 times)

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Offline aldo_14

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I wasn't aware I'd posted my explanation(?)

I've stiched it together from various posts on numerous topics :)

I especially like the idea that Bosch was played by the Shivans to get him to open the Knossos portal for instance.

Um.... that'd be the old theory, then.  The new one is a little more literal, and also a bit more interesting.  Sort of.  A lot more cohesive, at the least.

 

Offline karajorma

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Hangs together better than the Manifesto to my mind though.
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Offline aldo_14

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Hangs together better than the Manifesto to my mind though.

If it was in any way based of the Reci one (rather than the LS one), then I think there was a problem (or more likely a hole) in it when viewed vis-a-vis FS1 and ST.  Albeit I have about 5 different versions of the (possible) Shivan motivation mapped out, I think, from the sort of FS-literal 'exodus to a new galaxy' type explanation to wilder stuff with other races / time travel* / etc, so most of the responses I make are really nit-pickery.

Although I always felt it was somewhat more likely the GTVI was playing Bosch initially (for whatever reasons wanting to find the Knossos and open it), and the Shivans were simply opportunistic.

*I was always quite keen on the idea (for a campaign, not as the actual real story) of the Shivans originating/evolving from a human created nanotechnology that was sucked back in time a few million years.

 

Offline BlackDove

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I don't seem to have been paying much attention when this "manifesto" was written/discussed. All links leading to it are dead seeing how search is busted and any 3dgamespy links go to frontpage.

Can someone repost it here?

As the source on all things Freespace, the wiki needs to have...all things Freespace. Like the Shivan Manifesto, and any other Shivan theories that can be scrounged up. Yes, they should go in a non-canon section, but honestly no one has offered a coherent argument against adding them at all. This is knowledge of FS too.

I would agree with you if things weren't the way the are realistically.

Fact is (and this is one of the community's biggest problems) that everyone has their interpertation of the Shivans, no matter how off the wall or close to canon it may be. To put in opinions that are not canon and then all "Shivan Theories" is impossible considering that they can't be all put together since everyone has their own idea, no matter how ridiculous it may be.

The answer is no. None of it should really leave the discussion forums.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2006, 09:35:05 am by BlackDove »

 

Offline karajorma

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Quote
Posted On Gamespy
It's pretty easy to convert an old HLP link to a new one. Just open a random post on HLP and then take the numbers after t= in the old link and substitute them for the numbers after topic, in the new post.


So if you can find a link to the old HLP page you can now find it on HLP 3.0 :)
 
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Offline aldo_14

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I don't seem to have been paying much attention when this "manifesto" was written/discussed. All links leading to it are dead seeing how search is busted and any 3dgamespy links go to frontpage.

Offhand, I believe (think so, anyways.  Could be talking pish, here....) the gist is that Shivans are energy beings from subspace wearing suits (with some sort of metaphysical reliance upon comm nodes), that GTVA type jumpdrives are damaging subspace, and that the Shivans destroyed Capella because they were scared the GTVA might have 80 odd Colossi in Vega.  Oh, and I think it also says Bosch didn't actually talk to the Shivans, and that the Shivans thought his hello was a distress call from captured Shivans (this bit is, I think, complete and utter nonsense) - i.e. so Bosch is basically a Deus Ex Machina to open the portal and nothing more.

As I remember it, anyways.  There were a lot of dodgy assumptions, IIRC.

 

Offline BlackDove

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That's some of the craziest **** I ever heard.

Now I think it's a service to _not_ include it in the Wikipedia.

Thanks for the summary though, the solution Kara posted I can't seem to... do.

edit: okay I figured it out....now to read the entire mass. http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,22279.0.html

edit2:

Oh okay, upon reading it I get it.

He tried to use logic but failed at conclusions because he didn't really understand what FS ST and FS2 were all about. Got caught up so much in the literal meaning of the tech descriptions that he lost all perspective.

Yeah it happens all too frequently.

It's a nice try.

But no.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2006, 11:16:56 am by BlackDove »

 

Offline knn

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BlackDove, if you really want to read the entire thing: http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:QtdDGcsf77wJ:dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/forums/showthread.php%3Fthreadid%3D22279%26highlight%3Dmanifesto&hl=en

HLP 3.0 has a character limit on posts and the end is missing
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Offline BlackDove

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I don't really think I want to know the end. I read through most of it and it's very skewed, and in some things, just blatantly wrong because of the perception loss.

Thanks though.

I like the notion that they ran away though :lol:

How do you explain the nebula then? What? They were running away from the Ancients too then? The nebula is another star they collapsed. What, they feared the Ancients as well?

I mean I can shoot that idea down just like that. Don't even have to go into the debate of the Shivans

a) Having anything that resembles fear
b) Running after 3 epic stories in which they don't run

Just simply - no.

(I know these are just half-witted replies to a half-witted scenario as described by the guy writing that, we all know it's much more complex than that, but I don't really need any further argument to counter those opinions)
« Last Edit: January 04, 2006, 11:29:56 am by BlackDove »

 

Offline aldo_14

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To be fair, the nebula in FS2 was clearly pre-Ancients war (knossos), so we don't know what happened there.    But I think the SM is symptomatic of the problems you get when you try and create an answer through discrete questions - namely that you tend to lose sight of the whole.  Like, for example, why the Shivans would be interested in dissecting someone.

 

Offline BlackDove

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We definatly know that it was induced by the Shivans, and we actually don't know werther it was 8000 years ago or more (it's possible though not probable that it was in the time of the Ancients).

But let's take your scenario - they blew it up with the race before the Ancients. They were scared from this other species. Want to tell me why this other species, more powerful than the Shivans, exists no more?

Come on. We all know why the Shivans are "The Great Destroyers" - it is the story of the nine cities of Troy. Bosch couldn't be more clear about it. They destroyed countless civilizations before us and the Ancients. They weren't "running" anywhere.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2006, 02:00:37 pm by BlackDove »

 

Offline karajorma

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We definatly know that it was induced by the Shivans, and we actually don't know werther it was 8000 years ago or more (it's possible though not probable that it was in the time of the Ancients).

We don't know anything of the sort. Bosch speculates that it may have been the Shivans who were responsible but for all we know the nebula is natural and the ancients came along and colonised\built the knossos later.

Even Bosch says that the nine cities stuff is a "What if?". I'd bet money that the Shivans were the great destroyers but even that isn't certain. One of the beauties of Freespace when it comes to writing plots is that almost nothing is definitely proven. It's this whole ambiguity that gives me a problem with putting non-canon material on the wiki.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2006, 02:09:40 pm by karajorma »
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Offline BlackDove

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Bosch was used to perpetuate the story to the player. The cutscenes were a way (the only way) to let the player know what and why things are going on. The idea with using the news casters was cut if you'll remember, and really for a good reason.

Also you'd have to be pretty ignorant not to face the fact that a situation involving the Shivans in a supernova'd system and their Sathanas capabilities is a coincidence.

The whole point of that system beyond GD is to show that the Shivans have had Star Destroying Capabilities for a LOOOOOONG LOOOOONG time and that we're pathetic in comparison to what they can accomplish.

From your FAQ and the game

Quote
The nebula is the remnant of a supernova thousands, if not billions, of light-years from Earth; and I wonder now if our ancestors witnessed the death of this star erupting over an Egyptian landscape, blazing with the brilliance of four hundred million suns. Even in their divinity, no pharaoh could have imagined this.

Could have imagined what? A star crumbling? The only way the last sentence makes sense is if a Pharaoh couldn't imagine Shivans raping a system.

Yeah, because it's not spelled out for you, you can call it conjecture, and yes, it is a problem regarding the Wikipedia, and we'll never be able to put it in as cannon.

But let's not pretend as if we don't know where the logical conclusions lead us to.

Also, the "We can't be certain about the nine cities of Troy" - Really? Somehow I found it to be one of the core points of the entire story and the game.

To quote what the game is really all about in broad terms as outlined by the developers:

Quote
Descent: FreeSpace: The Great War is an epic story of human survival against an unstoppable alien foe. It spans 3 sapient races, over 40 different types of space craft, and countless lives. Told from the perspective of a Terran squad leader, FreeSpace is more than a war journal, it is a futuristic look at the risks and sacrifices people must be willing to make for the sake of our species.

The species, their history and their future are the core point of the game, and that was just FreeSpace 1. FreeSpace 2 goes on a _lot_ further into the whole thing if you'll compare. I doubt the story narrator would be putting lies into Bosch's mouth - he who tells the story.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2006, 03:27:12 pm by BlackDove »

 

Offline aldo_14

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We definatly know that it was induced by the Shivans, and we actually don't know werther it was 8000 years ago or more (it's possible though not probable that it was in the time of the Ancients).

No evidence for that atall.  AFAIK it's never even suggested the supernova was artificially induced.  But we can say with certaintly it was prior to the Ancients bulding not one but 2 Knosso gates, and thus I think it may be safe to presume the Shivans weren't there at that time (because the Ancients monologues never mention pressing forward, just being forced back, so if they met the Shivans in a Knossos system surely it would the last in the GD-neb-LG-? sequence).  In either case, it is incredibly far from being definite.  Astonishingly so.

But let's take your scenario - they blew it up with the race before the Ancients. They were scared from this other species. Want to tell me why this other species, more powerful than the Shivans, exists no more?

Well, the latter would be giving sommat away.... but who says that the Shivans created that nebula in the first place?  Certainly I never thought so when I first played through the game; it's not something that's explicitly hinted at.  Whether or not the origin of the nebula is of any importance to the story (beyond being a really cool setting) is an issue in itself.

Also, you point out (er, below) the Troy myth as a possible parallel - the analogy that drew was with the 9 cities of Troy, being built upon the ruins of the last, and thus how societies like the Terran and Vasudan ones only survived because the Shivans destroyed the likes of the Ancients before they could exterminate or subjugate the nascent species (noting the Vasudan-Ancient issues; I think subjugate is a very important word in this context, BTW).  So you have the possibility - if it was a hostile act - the Shivans nuked that sun (if they did) simply to polish off a lesser race akin to the Ancients (again, this has it's own issues, like why they didn't do the same to the Ancients or in FS1 if they had the ability - but the whole point is surely that we don't have any definitive answers, and that's where the fun is).

Come on. We all know why the Shivans are "The Great Destroyers" - it is the story of the nine cities of Troy. Bosch couldn't be more clear about it. They destroyed countless civilizations before us and the Ancients. They weren't "running" anywhere.

Didn't Volition employees once warn about applying human motivations to the Shivans?  I'd say the same could be quite true of analogies.  Plus the Troy analogy itself doesn't entirely fit with the known storyline; the Greeks (in the mythology) attacked to reclaim Helen, but there's not an equivalent for the Shivans to 'reclaim' AFAWK.  Likewise, I don't think the T-V 'foes united by war' is found within the Troy story.

It's remiss not to point this out, given what we've said about the Shivan Manifesto.

 It sort of reminds me of the academic giving an interview about Bagpuss, who described it as a metaphor for the oppression of the proletariat workers by the bourgeious rulers.  The creator of Bagpuss said it was just a show about a cat.  I wonder which one of those 2 we're closer to?

 

Offline BlackDove

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Yeah, I didn't say that the "FS2 story is like the nine cities of Troy". Sorry if you missread it that way, but what I meant was that as the 9 cities of Troy, our civilizations (Ancients, us, and whoever before Ancients) is like Bosch's reference to it.

Think you missunderstood me.

As for the rest, you need to read my post above. You missed it.

Just to clarify fully - when I say and refer to Bosch's "Nince cities of Troy" - I am refering to this:

Quote
Excavation campaigns:

Dörpfeld, Blegen

After Schliemann, the site was further excavated under the direction of Wilhelm Dörpfeld (1893/4) and later Carl Blegen (1932-8). These excavations have shown that were at least nine cities built one on top of each other at this site.

One good point you make though:

No evidence for that atall. AFAIK it's never even suggested the supernova was artificially induced. But we can say with certaintly it was prior to the Ancients bulding not one but 2 Knosso gates, and thus I think it may be safe to presume the Shivans weren't there at that time (because the Ancients monologues never mention pressing forward, just being forced back, so if they met the Shivans in a Knossos system surely it would the last in the GD-neb-LG-? sequence).

Indeed a good point, the gates of Ancients wouldn't be there if it happened during the extermination of them.

However it most certainly happened with a previous race. The story is that much poorer if it wasn't, because the chronology of Bosch's statements wouldn't be there.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2006, 04:06:24 pm by BlackDove »

 

Offline aldo_14

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Bosch was used to perpetuate the story to the player. The cutscenes were a way (the only way) to let the player know what and why things are going on. The idea with using the news casters was cut if you'll remember, and really for a good reason.

Bosch was used to perpetuate ideas.  That's different from feeding the storyline to the player - it provides hints, etc, but no decent developer would plan a game whereby the storyline was entirely seperate to the actions of the player.  So the storyline must be revealed as much through brief, debrief, game etc as the one medium of the cutscene.  Bosch is definately a key to the storyline, but not necessarily the only one.

Also you'd have to be pretty ignorant not to face the fact that a situation involving the Shivans in a supernova'd system and their Sathanas capabilities is a coincidence.

The whole point of that system beyond GD is to show that the Shivans have had Star Destroying Capabilities for a LOOOOOONG LOOOOONG time and that we're pathetic in comparison to what they can accomplish.

Ignorant?  Why?  Normal supernovas do occur, y'know, and we don't know if the Capella nova was even intended to be a nova.  Again, it is not explicit, thus it is a guess.  It is never hinted that the nebula is anything other than naturally occuring, even at the end monologue.  Even if it is - and it may be - we have no basis for claiming a definitive conclusion; for one thing, we don't have a motive or reason for the Shivans destroying the neb sys.

From your FAQ and the game

Quote
The nebula is the remnant of a supernova thousands, if not billions, of light-years from Earth; and I wonder now if our ancestors witnessed the death of this star erupting over an Egyptian landscape, blazing with the brilliance of four hundred million suns. Even in their divinity, no pharaoh could have imagined this.

Could have imagined what? A star crumbling? The only way the last sentence makes sense is if a Pharaoh couldn't imagine Shivans raping a system.

You think the pharoahs of Ancient Egypt could have imagined a lightning struck gaseous nebula in the depths of space?  Hell, the Pharoahs never even knew the world was round, let alone the cosmos.  If anything, he's contrasting what the Pharoahs may have seen - a tiny-but-bright flash - compared to what he and the player was seeing in the cutscene (the 'veil of clouds' mentioned in the previous line); how man cannot perceive everything, perhaps an allegory for the discovery Bosch made (and that has driven him into the nebula).

Yeah, because it's not spelled out for you, you can call it conjecture, and yes, it is a problem regarding the Wikipedia, and we'll never be able to put it in as cannon.

But let's not pretend as if we don't know where the logical conclusions lead us to.

Where your conclusions lead you, you mean.  The logic of them is no more definitive than that used in the Shivan Manifesto, which is the whole point.  Any evidence we can put to a conclusion will always be only 2 thirds of the whole picture, and the lesser two thirds at that - and that is exactly what forms conjecture.

Also, the "We can't be certain about the nine cities of Troy" - Really? Somehow I found it to be one of the core points of the entire story and the game.

I didn't, and I'd bet I've done as much conjecture, analysis, etc as you have.  After all, FS - 1 and 2 - is full of mythological and historical references, many of which are of the Roman era IIRC.  IMO it could just as well be Bosch using the 9 cities as an analogy for a cosmological cycle of destruction-rise of species-destruction that he wishes to break by communicating with the systems; the question is surely in what sense the 9 cities of Troy is being evoked; as a glimpse of what Bosch fears the human race will endure in the future without his intervention, as a glimpse into the past of the galaxy and age of the Shivans, etc.   I get the sense there's a 'but' at the end of that monologue, though, when he's speaking about what the Ancients thought the Shivans were/are/wanted.

To quote what the game is really all about in broad terms as outlined by the developers:

Quote
Descent: FreeSpace: The Great War is an epic story of human survival against an unstoppable alien foe. It spans 3 sapient races, over 40 different types of space craft, and countless lives. Told from the perspective of a Terran squad leader, FreeSpace is more than a war journal, it is a futuristic look at the risks and sacrifices people must be willing to make for the sake of our species.

The species, their history and their future are the core point of the game, and that was just FreeSpace 1. FreeSpace 2 goes on a _lot_ further into the whole thing if you'll compare. I doubt the story narrator would be putting lies into Bosch's mouth - he who tells the story.

But none of that pertains to the Shivan motivation or role - that's something FS2 was exploring (more than FS1), but even then the role Shivans will have is left open as something to be answered in FS3.  Bosch is an important McGubbin, but we can't say that what he believed he was doing was actually 'right' (either in the consequences or in what he expected) because we don't know the after-effect.  Probably at best we can guess at what Bosch thought the Shivans wanted.

But this thread - or the last page or so at least - strikes me as a good example why not to put this type of conjecture into the wiki.  IMO we should have the techroom entries, and make briefing/cutscene text available, and let people come up with their own theories.

 

Offline WMCoolmon

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BD, your argument against the Shivan Manifesto is based on as many assumptions as the Manifesto itself.

If someone were to write up a Space Badger theory as well-written, with about as many supporting points, and as popular as the Shivan Manifesto, by golly, it should be in the Wiki.

I just did a search in the wiki, and didn't find the Shivan Manifesto. So as a newbie to the forums, I'm going to go ahead and assume that the Shivan Manifesto is obviously a well-reasoned, hard-to-find source on Shivan behavior released by Volition. :nod: Because after all, that's what people are saying, and I can't read it to find out for myself.

I'm also going to post a thread IN ALL CAPS to ask people about when someone is going to make Freespace 3, now that Volition's plans for the Shivans are now known.
-C

 

Offline BlackDove

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Not really WM, there are no assumptions that the Shivans kicked the Ancients' asses and the civilizations prior to the Ancients.

As much the fact is that the player wasn't told "That's how it happened", you have to be pretty retarded not to have gotten the hint and accepted it.

I'm going to play the quote game only once here, because aldo is doing it and I don't want to seem as if I don't have basis for assuming the most logical course. I hate the quote game however, which is why I'll do it only this time.

Bosch was used to perpetuate the story to the player. The cutscenes were a way (the only way) to let the player know what and why things are going on. The idea with using the news casters was cut if you'll remember, and really for a good reason.

Bosch was used to perpetuate ideas. That's different from feeding the storyline to the player - it provides hints, etc, but no decent developer would plan a game whereby the storyline was entirely seperate to the actions of the player. So the storyline must be revealed as much through brief, debrief, game etc as the one medium of the cutscene. Bosch is definately a key to the storyline, but not necessarily the only one.

No. Bosch was used to perpetuate the enhanced storyline from his point of view. You're mistaking it for them being "ideas", because  the writer made him speak in vague terms. This is a mistake on your part, because the alternative is for the story to be an endless sense of bull**** that is far from coherent. That isn't the case. The Brief/Debrief/Command brief are a way to perpetuate the story directly to the player - while Bosch isn't directly talking to the player. The form is different but the spirit is the same. It is story - not guesswork. If it was guesswork, nobody would play the damn thing.

Quote
Also you'd have to be pretty ignorant not to face the fact that a situation involving the Shivans in a supernova'd system and their Sathanas capabilities is a coincidence.

The whole point of that system beyond GD is to show that the Shivans have had Star Destroying Capabilities for a LOOOOOONG LOOOOONG time and that we're pathetic in comparison to what they can accomplish.

Ignorant? Why? Normal supernovas do occur, y'know, and we don't know if the Capella nova was even intended to be a nova. Again, it is not explicit, thus it is a guess. It is never hinted that the nebula is anything other than naturally occuring, even at the end monologue. Even if it is - and it may be - we have no basis for claiming a definitive conclusion; for one thing, we don't have a motive or reason for the Shivans destroying the neb sys.

Normal Supernova's do occur, but a normal supernova doesn't fit into the storyline of FS2, especially if we consider the ending where it is revealed what the shivans DO around here. If that didn't happen, I'd agree with you, but considering the punchline of the game was star destroyers, I'm going to go ahead and assume that from a player's point of view, I got the point. The references are easy to tie, and I did it above. Considering the logical conclusions that we reach through this "may or may not be", we can safely say that not only it may be, but that it is.

Quote
From your FAQ and the game

Quote
The nebula is the remnant of a supernova thousands, if not billions, of light-years from Earth; and I wonder now if our ancestors witnessed the death of this star erupting over an Egyptian landscape, blazing with the brilliance of four hundred million suns. Even in their divinity, no pharaoh could have imagined this.

Could have imagined what? A star crumbling? The only way the last sentence makes sense is if a Pharaoh couldn't imagine Shivans raping a system.

You think the pharoahs of Ancient Egypt could have imagined a lightning struck gaseous nebula in the depths of space? Hell, the Pharoahs never even knew the world was round, let alone the cosmos. If anything, he's contrasting what the Pharoahs may have seen - a tiny-but-bright flash - compared to what he and the player was seeing in the cutscene (the 'veil of clouds' mentioned in the previous line); how man cannot perceive everything, perhaps an allegory for the discovery Bosch made (and that has driven him into the nebula).

You're being a bit too literal for your own good. Of course the pharoahs of ancient Egypt couldn't imagine gaseus nebula's and stuff like that, but what he meant was that they couldn't imagine what was going on - as in, cosmic destroyers being out there waiting for you to make your predictable moves and punishing you for your choices in a way which irradicates systems on a massive scale.  There is such a thing as "reading between the lines". He was maknig the reference to a pharoah, because pharoah's were the top of the food chain as far as power goes in Ancient Egypt. He could have easily said "A peasant in Ancient Egypt", but the reason he referenced a pharoah is because, even him with all his power, he wouldn't be able to comprehend the power of the Shivans

You people do get those allusions, right? I'm not the only one who was able to read why things were written the way they were, right? If I'm not the only one, please endow me with your interpertations or possible interpertations of his texts. So far I haven't seen anyone take a stab at it in a logical and comprehensive way, even though we've been discussing this for years.

Quote
Yeah, because it's not spelled out for you, you can call it conjecture, and yes, it is a problem regarding the Wikipedia, and we'll never be able to put it in as cannon.

But let's not pretend as if we don't know where the logical conclusions lead us to.

Where your conclusions lead you, you mean. The logic of them is no more definitive than that used in the Shivan Manifesto, which is the whole point. Any evidence we can put to a conclusion will always be only 2 thirds of the whole picture, and the lesser two thirds at that - and that is exactly what forms conjecture.

No, I mean where the logic leads me. I didn't misstype that. The Shivan Manifest has a few open points, but the other points it makes are right down retarded as far as logic goes, so that makes them non-logical. Naturally that the whole discussion is pure conjecture - we don't even need to state that given the fact that the writer didn't finish and feed the story, but as I said again, we are all entitled to make accurate, logical and most probable guesses, and that's what I did.

Quote
Also, the "We can't be certain about the nine cities of Troy" - Really? Somehow I found it to be one of the core points of the entire story and the game.

I didn't, and I'd bet I've done as much conjecture, analysis, etc as you have. After all, FS - 1 and 2 - is full of mythological and historical references, many of which are of the Roman era IIRC. IMO it could just as well be Bosch using the 9 cities as an analogy for a cosmological cycle of destruction-rise of species-destruction that he wishes to break by communicating with the systems; the question is surely in what sense the 9 cities of Troy is being evoked; as a glimpse of what Bosch fears the human race will endure in the future without his intervention, as a glimpse into the past of the galaxy and age of the Shivans, etc. I get the sense there's a 'but' at the end of that monologue, though, when he's speaking about what the Ancients thought the Shivans were/are/wanted.

There's no but at the end of that monologue. He finishes his thought and his sentences coherently. His general "thought" with that cutscene is that history keeps repeating itself and that he needs to find some other way in order to save our species. That's IT. Reading more into it leaves you with your theory that comes after your "IMO" which isn't supported by anything, and is acquired by putting "but"'s at the end of his monologues, which aren't there.

If you took enough time to look at the thing from the outside as much as you're trying to look at it from the writers point of view, you'd see more meanings to the story, and rather from using induction to form opinions, you'd use deduction, which is the way to go about matters that haven't been fed and explained to the fullest.

However you're right - I make a mistake myself by assuming that the most logical way is the commonly accepted way. Of course you're right, most interpertations out there that differ from mine are quite literally... beneath the point.

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To quote what the game is really all about in broad terms as outlined by the developers:

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Descent: FreeSpace: The Great War is an epic story of human survival against an unstoppable alien foe. It spans 3 sapient races, over 40 different types of space craft, and countless lives. Told from the perspective of a Terran squad leader, FreeSpace is more than a war journal, it is a futuristic look at the risks and sacrifices people must be willing to make for the sake of our species.

The species, their history and their future are the core point of the game, and that was just FreeSpace 1. FreeSpace 2 goes on a _lot_ further into the whole thing if you'll compare. I doubt the story narrator would be putting lies into Bosch's mouth - he who tells the story.

But none of that pertains to the Shivan motivation or role - that's something FS2 was exploring (more than FS1), but even then the role Shivans will have is left open as something to be answered in FS3. Bosch is an important McGubbin, but we can't say that what he believed he was doing was actually 'right' (either in the consequences or in what he expected) because we don't know the after-effect. Probably at best we can guess at what Bosch thought the Shivans wanted.

Exactly, the Shivans motivations and role you won't see me discuss in public, after all even I can't be that certain of them since that part of the story was left open the most, and not even Bosch or command were able to patch that. This is the part that I make my own and create a campaign that manages to explain that in my way to the best of my abilities.

However, I do not see the point in questioning every little nitpick Bosch said or did because some/main parts of the story were left open to interpertation. Many of them were pretty clear as far as subtext goes.

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But this thread - or the last page or so at least - strikes me as a good example why not to put this type of conjecture into the wiki. IMO we should have the techroom entries, and make briefing/cutscene text available, and let people come up with their own theories.

Alas, not because of MY "assumptions" or "guesses" as you attempt to make it clear, but because the fact is that everyone only has assumptions and guesses, and we can't put any of it in the wikipedia, even if some of us (and by "some of us" I mean - I -) am most likely right.

In the end as a summation - we can all play the "yeeeeeeeah but that's not how they said and I don't accept your opinions because they left that part open and I had some other ideas here" - that's true, but it doesn't invalidate the fact that some of us have more logical solutions to the story of FreeSpace, and some of us less.

However that's it for my contributions to this thread (at least it contributed as much as to prove that we can't put any of this **** into the Wikipedia), and I will not be playing the quote game again should you reply. Too time consuming for me, has nothing to do with me not wanting to discuss this with you aldo, since you're pretty smart, but I just can't do it for technical reasons. Sorry if you reply and I don't give you the "back" from "back and forth".

 

Offline karajorma

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Bosch was used to perpetuate the story to the player. The cutscenes were a way (the only way) to let the player know what and why things are going on. The idea with using the news casters was cut if you'll remember, and really for a good reason.

However it must be remembered that Bosch is giving his point of view. It's very possible that :v: were merely giving us a glimpse of what Bosch thought was going on only to reveal the real truth later on in the series. Bosch may have been privy to knowledge that gave him a clear indication of Shivan motives or he may just have thought he was. It's a very important distinction.

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Also you'd have to be pretty ignorant not to face the fact that a situation involving the Shivans in a supernova'd system and their Sathanas capabilities is a coincidence.


I can think of other explainations. Perhaps the nebula was natural but after 1m years the Shivans had mined most of it and needed a new one. Perhaps the nebula was created by another race from whom the Shivans later stole the technology. Perhaps the nebula was created by the race who created the Shivans and then buggered off beyond the rim. I could go on all day.

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The whole point of that system beyond GD is to show that the Shivans have had Star Destroying Capabilities for a LOOOOOONG LOOOOONG time and that we're pathetic in comparison to what they can accomplish.

From your FAQ and the game

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The nebula is the remnant of a supernova thousands, if not billions, of light-years from Earth; and I wonder now if our ancestors witnessed the death of this star erupting over an Egyptian landscape, blazing with the brilliance of four hundred million suns. Even in their divinity, no pharaoh could have imagined this.

Could have imagined what? A star crumbling? The only way the last sentence makes sense is if a Pharaoh couldn't imagine Shivans raping a system.


Again you're treating Bosch as if he was the mouthpiece of the author repeating stuff that the player can't figure out for himself. The fact is that there is a very large possibility that Bosch was wrong. The fact that the Shivans attacked the Iceni and may have taken Bosch off of it by force should be a big warning sign to you that maybe :v: intended for him to be wrong all along.
 
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Yeah, because it's not spelled out for you, you can call it conjecture, and yes, it is a problem regarding the Wikipedia, and we'll never be able to put it in as cannon.

But let's not pretend as if we don't know where the logical conclusions lead us to.


Thing is that it's not a logical conclusion. Its a possibility. You're making the same mistake the writer of the Shivan Manifesto made in trying to make definate claims about what must have happened based on very little data. Petrach states that the Shivans blew up Capella in order to reach home. If so why didn't the Shivans get home after blowing up the star that became the nebula? Especially when you consider that it must have been a massive star to end up with such a pea souper of a nebula.

You can't take the words of anybody in a cutscene as gospel. And you certainly can't say that there is only one logical conclusion. I may agree that the shivans creating that nebula is likely to be the explaination that :v: would have picked but I'm certainly not going to say that it's the only choice.

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Descent: FreeSpace: The Great War is an epic story of human survival against an unstoppable alien foe. It spans 3 sapient races, over 40 different types of space craft, and countless lives. Told from the perspective of a Terran squad leader, FreeSpace is more than a war journal, it is a futuristic look at the risks and sacrifices people must be willing to make for the sake of our species.

The fact that there are at least 4 sapient races in the FS2 universe should show you that you should take that with a pinch of salt rather than again assuming it says what you want it to say :) Besides I don't see it supporting your argument in any way. The Shivans are still unstoppable whether they created the nebula or not.

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The species, their history and their future are the core point of the game, and that was just FreeSpace 1. FreeSpace 2 goes on a _lot_ further into the whole thing if you'll compare. I doubt the story narrator would be putting lies into Bosch's mouth - he who tells the story.

I disagree. One of the fundementals of good storywriting is learning not to make your characters oracles. A character should only have access to whatever knowledge he should have. He shouldn't be privy to the inner working of the universe just because the person writing for him is.
 Besides setting up the audience to believe one thing and then showing it to be completely false later on is one of the fundementals of storywriting.

Not really WM, there are no assumptions that the Shivans kicked the Ancients' asses and the civilizations prior to the Ancients.

Yes there are. We only know for certain that a race with shielding technology similar to the Shivans kicked the crap out of the ancients. We can't even conclusively prove that it was the Shivans!
 There's absolutely no evidence beyond the conjecture of Bosch that the Shivans wiped anyone else out. Even Bosch says What If?
« Last Edit: January 04, 2006, 04:53:39 pm by karajorma »
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline BlackDove

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Sorry Kara, I made some clarifications in my reply to aldo, so if you really want to reply you'll have to do it to that part as well, but like I said, I won't play the quote game you guys use to discuss.

I maintain that I am correct in my views even with your very informed and intelligent responses, which I just simply believe are reached from a skewed perspective.

I assume that you feel the same way about me as well of course, but in the end, that is how our discussion on our views regarding the FS universe will have to remain, because I just can't do the back and forth anymore like I used to.

Sorry. If you really want to discuss it, we can do it over irc - I can focus better and type in a more relaxed and cohesive manner if it's real-time (yeah, kind of the opposite of logical order, that forums are more relaxed, but it's true heh), you can find me on irc://irc.maxgaming.net:6667/ssx (copy and paste the string into FF, should launch it correctly).

If you want to that is, but I've really said my peace (peace yeah) when I replied to aldo, and do not wish to consume my effort and time into playing the quote game.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2006, 05:01:01 pm by BlackDove »