[Aardwolf]

elected?

[Dark Hunter]

Elected, chosen, allowed to join, whatever.

Bad choice of words, maybe.

[WMCoolmon]

Well, two reasons spring to mind.

(1) Better the enemy you know, than the enemy you don't know. Keeping the Shivans around forces other races to tread carefully lest they start an intergalactic war.

(2) The Grand Council wanted to control the Shivans rather than engage in a grand war with them. By giving them a seat on the Grand Council, they get the Shivans to protect their convoys/planets/whatever, and also have a military force they can use to patrol the edges of known space for whatever serves as pirates or other odd threats. Basically channeling the Shivans' destructive nature into more constructive causes.

[WMCoolmon]

I went and read the FS1 cutscenes in the wiki and realized that the quote from Alpha 1 is a little more complex than just stating that the Shivans are THE Great Destroyers. Rather, he actually states:

Long had we been the destroyer.

Which implies that there can be more than one destroyer, or that there can only be one destroyer, but who it is can vary. I think an abject analogy would be the cleaning guy who scrubs disinfectant on everything. He kills all the bacteria, but he also preserves the sterility of the environment, so new bacteria have an easier time evolving and adapting to their environment without mass competition. Those bacteria would also serve to sterilize the environment if they faced any (weaker) competition.

So yeah, in this case the Shivans were the great Destroyers and the Vishnan the preservers, but it may be that either can serve the other's purpose at any time, they just have a tendency to appear to do one thing to the races they encounter because they are so powerful. For all we know the Vishnan may be on the verge of annihilating another species that the Shivans protect, who know the Vishnan as the Great Destroyers.

It's not exactly implied by the Shivans getting kicked off the Grand Council for going too far, but for all we know it could be one big political snafu over conflicting ideologies between the Shivans and the Grand Council. Maybe the Shivans are the Great Nonconformists.

Also interesting is his statement:

I'm told we can expect them again, but not in my lifetime.

Bumbumbum...BP tie in? After all, who would be telling Alpha 1 that he can expect the Shivans or not that he would trust?

[Androgeos Exeunt]

Actually, when you think of it, the act of the Shivans exterminating the Ancients may be an act of preservation as well. Keep in mind that the Ancients struck down any foreign civilization they came across prior to meeting the Shivans. In some way, the Shivans are acting for the preservation of other species that the Ancients had yet to conquer.

[Droid803]

Yes, that has been noted.
That's also where the great preservers tag comes from at the end of FS1.

However, I do -NOT- believe that that is their role, according to BP canon.

[blowfish]

O hey ... thread split.  I think my post should be moved back to the main thread though.  It doesn't really have to do with Vishnans and Shivans ... unless you plan on making a War in Heaven Discussion thread...

[Darius]

This is a good discussion. I'm giving it it's own thread. If you'd like I can rename the thread to something else.

It's not just races that the Vishnans preserve, but also the balance of the universe itself. Being non-linear, the Vishnans transcend time (theorised to be a non-fundamental property of the universe) and they have the ability to shift matter into other universes. Likewise the Shivans are granted the ability to destroy parts of the universe (causing a star to supernova, for example) as well as destroying other aspects (like V. Prime's ability to support life).

[Snail]

It's not just races that the Vishnans preserve, but also the balance of the universe itself. Being non-linear, the Vishnans transcend time (theorised to be a non-fundamental property of the universe) and they have the ability to shift matter into other universes. Likewise the Shivans are granted the ability to destroy parts of the universe (causing a star to supernova, for example) as well as destroying other aspects (like V. Prime's ability to support life).

But doesn't that more or less mean that the Vishnans could easily destroy the Shivans by attacking them at different points in time and hiding in other universes?

[General Battuta]

I'm wondering if War in Heaven will give any BP-specific answers about Bosch and Capella.

I'm also hoping the Shivans will retain their menace in our universe. I liked them best when they had even the Vishnans running scared. I don't object to an eventual happy ending, but the Shivans are one of the few alien races in SF to remain mysterious, implacable, and unstoppable. I hope BP can somehow retain that quality!

[Snail]

Shivans kicking Vishnan ass all over space and time would suffice.

[DarthWang]

Why is the Vishnan Missionary just a reskinned AF Kato?

[Snail]

Why is the Vishnan Missionary just a reskinned AF Kato?

Why not?

[Androgeos Exeunt]

It's cool! I don't get to fly an Ancient ship in INFR1 unless I FRED a mission, so this is quite a good experience.

Kudos to Darius and the Inferno team.

I'm still trying to understand the Vishnans and their meaning of preserving the balance. What is balance to them?

[Darius]

I'm still trying to understand the Vishnans and their meaning of preserving the balance. What is balance to them?

In this particular instance, taking all the people who don't belong to that universe and sending 'em back to where they came from.

Basically a form of energy conservation.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

In that sense, Darius, does "wiping out the evil elements in the GTVA" count as preserving balance?

[Snail]

In this particular instance, taking all the people who don't belong to that universe and sending 'em back to where they came from.

Wait, wait, wait. I'm starting to see something really weird.

The Shivans, from one point of view, are the good guys... Because the Vishnans were sending the invasion fleet back into Sol so that they could start a war, but if the Shivans had wiped out the invasion fleet, then there might not have been a war... Now we know what the Shivans meant by "They are like us. They destroy"...

[Dark Hunter]

I've a feeling the GTVA back in our own universe would have simply sent another fleet had that happened.

[Snail]

I've a feeling the GTVA back in our own universe would have simply sent another fleet had that happened.

Perhaps, but not without some second thoughts.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

The Shivans, from one point of view, are the good guys... Because the Vishnans were sending the invasion fleet back into Sol so that they could start a war, but if the Shivans had wiped out the invasion fleet, then there might not have been a war... Now we know what the Shivans meant by "They are like us. They destroy"...

Wow. I didn't think of that, but you're right, Snail. Now that you say it, the Shivans weren't going overboard at all.

However, it seems that, in War in Heaven, both the Shivans and Vishnans will be in the sidelines watching the war unfold. Perhaps this war might preserve the balance, as the victors will either be spared or killed.

After the end of Age of Aquarius, I think that, if the UEF wins, the Vishnans and Shivans will stay out of sight, but if the GTVA wins, the fate of the Terrans and Vasudans is sealed.