[Akalabeth Angel]

Okay, really?

Homeworld, BSG, and BP all share a common story element: the last survivors of a destroyed world/worlds fleeing on a vast ship while under relentless attack by a common enemy. In the case of both BP and HW, the ship carries huge numbers of survivors in cryostorage.

It certainly qualifies as an archetype, or a trope, if you will.

Yeah but in Homeworld they're NOT fleeing. That's the crucial difference.

The mothership in homeworld is a huge self-sustaining mothership that can research new tech, build new fleets, repair itself, and drive straight into the heart of enemy territory and come out victorious.

Whereas the Sanctuary is a retrofitted warship that's falling apart, has no means of building new combat spacecraft, couldn't survive combat with the enemy and basically is on the verge of succumbing to a long pitiful existence in hiding.

[General Battuta]

Those aren't really big differences on the literary level - they're pretty much just details.

In all three cases, the story is one of a quest for a new home; in all three, 'fleeing' turns into 'a quest for home.'

[Akalabeth Angel]

Those aren't really big differences on the literary level - they're pretty much just details.

In all three cases, the story is one of a quest for a new home; in all three, 'fleeing' turns into 'a quest for home.'

Um. The Sanctuary isn't looking for a new home. It's been sitting in the same system for 40 years. Trying not to die. It's not even fleeing, it's just hiding.

The mothership in HW isn't fleeing, it's going towards the enemy straight on.

The only one truely fleeing and looking for a new home is Galactica.

[General Battuta]

These are quibbling points about word choice. The stories are similar. There's no agenda or meaning to that; they're simply similar.

[Akalabeth Angel]

These are quibbling points about word choice. The stories are similar. There's no agenda or meaning to that; they're simply similar.

Well I agree that they're all similar in that they all draw from some Noah's Ark or Exodus out of Egypt story motif. Beyond that . . . not really

[General Battuta]

Dude. Seriously.

A giant spaceship. Full of the last survivors of a ruined world. Flees from an inexorable enemy (yes, even in Homeworld, you flee at first). Before seeking out a lost world to call home.

This is way more specific than the Exodus; it's an SF story trope of some power.

[Droid803]

Except the Sanctuary doesn't seek out a lost world to call home. Ever.
They sit in a nebula, because if they do anything else they're dead.
Even when they go back Earth is hardly a lost world, with a population, military, government and all. (not to mention dimension skipping which is absent in both HW and BSG).

[General Battuta]

Except the Sanctuary doesn't seek out a lost world to call home. Ever.
They sit in a nebula, because if they do anything else they're dead.
Even when they go back Earth is hardly a lost world, with a population, military, government and all. (not to mention dimension skipping which is absent in both HW and BSG).

It seeks out a lost world as soon as it enters the narrative. Earth is destroyed; now a chance to return to it appears via transit to another universe.

You guys need to take some classes on literary analysis. The plot structures are the same; the details are immaterial. "They may have different body stylings, but they're all cars." This narrative style harkens back to the Odyssey with its quest for a return home.

[NGTM-1R]

It's much better they don't, as most people find being able to paint such broad strokes as the only important thing ruinous.

[General Battuta]

You can find differences between any two narratives if you focus on things like the names of the characters, what color clothes they're wearing, which direction they're headed, and how angry they are. But the structural similarities remain, and they're the interesting bits.

I think Droid and Akalabeth think there's some kind of agenda to these comparisons, when there really isn't; it's just an observation.

[Droid803]

Some of the differences aren't as trivial as that.
You can be going somewhere, but where it is has some bearing.

Eh, whatever. I can see similarity but it just doesn't feel quite so close for me, is what I'm saying.

[Akalabeth Angel]

It seeks out a lost world as soon as it enters the narrative. Earth is destroyed; now a chance to return to it appears via transit to another universe.

You guys need to take some classes on literary analysis. The plot structures are the same; the details are immaterial. "They may have different body stylings, but they're all cars." This narrative style harkens back to the Odyssey with its quest for a return home.

Yeah thanks buddy, but I've already got a degree in English Literature, I don't need another.

There's one major problem with your argument btw, and the problem is the Sanctuary is NOT the story. The Sanctuary is secondary at best. The story of Blue Planet does NOT in any way revolve around it. So no matter what kind of trope you want to apply to homeworld it doesn't apply to Blue Planet because the story is about the GTVA fleet and more specifically the hero character not the Sanctuary, whereas in Homeworld the story is entirely focused on the mothership.

The Sanctuary could be a base or an underground planetary facility or an asteroid and it wouldn't make any significant difference to the BP story because it doesn't journey or flee or search for anything on its own. The Sanctuary isn't returning home, the GTVA fleet is.

The Sanctuary is little more than a time capsule buried near a black hole.

[General Battuta]

Ah, that's the problem. You think claims have been made that haven't. See:

Anyone remember Homeworld? I just realized that in both you return to your home to find it burning, and in both you find a ship that shows you what happened. Of course, in Homeworld it was a Taidanii frigate, and not an escape pod. And it wasn't really their home, either.

Yep and the sanctuary is like the mothership too, but I try to ignore it as I enjoy BP regardless

I think these two points have been well demonstrated by now.

The Sanctuary could be a base or an underground planetary facility or an asteroid and it wouldn't make any significant difference to the BP story because it doesn't journey or flee or search for anything on its own. The Sanctuary isn't returning home, the GTVA fleet is.

And this is untrue; any reading of the text has to pay attention to the fact that the Sanctuary is given special attention as the entire reason the 14th Battlegroup is present. You apparently missed the fact that the Vishnans called the battlegroup to N362 in order to guide the Sanctuary home.

The Sanctuary is central to the BP story, and even in the mission design, it occupies a prominent place. Note that the last ship one has to defend in Universal Truth is the Sanctuary itself.

[Akalabeth Angel]

    While BP may have arguably borrowed story elements from HW the story itself is NOT the same. Comparing the Sanctuary to the Mothership is about as relevant as comparing the Sanctuary to the Nostromo's escape shuttle. Cryo-storage is a common theme in sci-fi. Last single group of survivors from an apocalypse is a common theme to many stories. And revealing the events of a cataclysmic even through a flashback is likewise, a common literary device.

     If you want to say that both Homeworld and Blue Planet use these same devices but in different ways that's fine. But saying that the Sanctuary is in any way like the Mothership is inaccurate because of their respective places within the story is a bit off. They both draw upon the idea of "last survivors escape" and take it in totally different directions.

     Saying that a car is a car is dumbing thing down to an irrelevant degree. If you want to really compare them, then the Sanctuary is an unhitched trailer home sitting in the woods. And the Mothership is a 100,000 ton Land battleship sailing for enemy territory. Hardly similar.


     Blue Planet is not like Homeworld. But Homeworld and Blue Planet are both like some other ancient story that few people have ever read so they just compare them together instead, stretched-plausibility and all.

[General Battuta]

    While BP may have arguably borrowed story elements from HW the story itself is NOT the same.

That claim was never made...

    If you want to say that both Homeworld and Blue Planet use these same devices but in different ways that's fine.

...this claim was, and you apparently agree with it...

    Saying that a car is a car is dumbing thing down to an irrelevant degree. If you want to really compare them, then the Sanctuary is an unhitched trailer home sitting in the woods. And the Mothership is a 100,000 ton Land battleship sailing for enemy territory. Hardly similar.

....that metaphor was in support of above point that you agree with...

    Blue Planet is not like Homeworld. But Homeworld and Blue Planet are both like some other ancient story

Blue Planet is not exactly like Homeworld. It's certainly like it in many ways, which have all been elucidated already.

[Akalabeth Angel]

Blue Planet is not exactly like Homeworld. It's certainly like it in many ways, which have all been elucidated already.

The main problem here is that there are two types of people here:

A - people who need to associate something with something else that came before, no matter how vague the reference.

B - people who can look at things with a much broader perspective



The fact is that while BP has similarities to HW it is neither exactly like HW, nor is it anything remotely close to Homeworld. The similarities are at best cosmetic, and in terms of their role within the story have very little in common. When the comparisons are so general that you can reference in 10 or more different stories along those same lines the comparison becomes irrelevant.

[General Battuta]

Well, as a member of group B, I have to say that the similarities between BSG and Homeworld are quite striking (since HW was more than a little based on BSG), and furthermore that Blue Planet displays clear similarities to Homeworld (and, by extension, Galactica.) The presence of a massive warship carrying the last survivors of a doomed race on a journey home is a fairly specific kind of storytelling. When that warship is the central element (the MacGuffin, if you will) of the plot, that's a definite similarity.

The references are not vague, they are specific, right down to the dialogue upon the return to Earth. There's no way I can see to reference 10 or more stories, but two certainly spring immediately to mind: Homeworld and BSG.

But I doubt you're going to agree, and as long as you agree that those who feel differently from you are intelligent and may have some valid points, I feel no need to argue further.

EDIT: Decided to add some textual reference in terms of the nods. Comparing HW M03, Return to Kharak, to BP01-2, ...With Vast Seas, you can see the dialogue nods right there, although they alone aren't very compelling. However, the sequence of narrative precedes as thus in both:

The ruined homeworld is discovered.

A ship that contains the narrative of the world's destruction is recovered as remnants of the enemy attack force are engaged.

The recording of the world's destruction is presented.

The narrative structures are the same. Now, Akalabeth, I'm not sure if you think this means someone is accusing BP of plagiarism. Narrative structures evolve in parallel all the time. Even if it is a reference, however, I'd say it adds to BP's value, rather than detracting from it; it's an excellent pedigree and a beautiful way to lay out the story.

[Stormkeeper]

... I fail to see what all the ... discussion ... is about. BP is an excellent mod with and excellent story. Sure, it draws some elements from HW. What's wrong with that? HW is an excellent game itself. Everything borrows something from somewhere. I really don't get whats the problem.

[General Battuta]

Exactly.

Whereas Akalabeth seems convinced that the three stories are totally different, when they are in fact all so close that some similarities are inevitable (even by pure accident.)

[Stormkeeper]

The thing is, at this age, in my opinion its hard to write a story without re-using things that haven't already been used, whether intentionally or unintentionally.