[Iain Baker]

Is it just me, or are the capital ships in FS1 far more agile than they are in FS2?

They appear slightly faster but far more manoeuvrable. A Cain (the Taranis I think) was doing a loop-de-loop circle strafe against an Aten. I don’t recall any FS2 Cains doing anything like that.

Some of the Vasudan transports appear far more agile too. The GVT Isis was out turning bombers!?

If they were indeed made less agile, was this due to the introduction of beam weapons?

Thoughts?

Cheers 😊

[HLD_Prophecy]

Could be. Beams need slower maneuvering to aim. When it's just blobs you can fire and forget, but to maximize your beam shots you need a steady course. Whether that makes sense just in-universe or also in-engine (both) is up to interpretation.

Anyway it's interesting combat theory!

I had the idea that modified transports/freighters could make good gunboats. Satis, Isis, even Poseidon... give them some better blobs, flak, AAA beams, and they can fly so fast even if a large beam lands a hit it slides off such a tiny target and so gets only a fraction of it's damage in. I mean there are obviously problems. But... a couple dozen Satis hurtling around your Orion pumping heavy flak/heavy terran turrets into it? Also has value as a cheap solution for local militias and struggling rear-line units.

[General Battuta]

Just check the tables. I don't think they did change, it's probably down to whether they're using waypoints or attack orders.

[Iain Baker]

Could be. Beams need slower maneuvering to aim. When it's just blobs you can fire and forget, but to maximize your beam shots you need a steady course. Whether that makes sense just in-universe or also in-engine (both) is up to interpretation.

Anyway it's interesting combat theory!

I had the idea that modified transports/freighters could make good gunboats. Satis, Isis, even Poseidon... give them some better blobs, flak, AAA beams, and they can fly so fast even if a large beam lands a hit it slides off such a tiny target and so gets only a fraction of it's damage in. I mean there are obviously problems. But... a couple dozen Satis hurtling around your Orion pumping heavy flak/heavy terran turrets into it? Also has value as a cheap solution for local militias and struggling rear-line units.

I was thinking that too. If you have played some of the earlier wing commander games the kilrathi Corvette was a gunboat that was a pain in the butt to fight because it moved so much and had turrets covering all fire arcs. Random factoid - in Vietnam the Americans converted WW2 landing craft in to river monitor gun boats, so basically the real world equivalent. Another Vietnam analogue was the gun truck 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_monitor

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_truck

[HLD_Prophecy]

Oh yeah, my dad's dad was in Vietnam, a navy chaplain. He was with riverine patrols a lot, brown water stuff around the Mekong delta and far inland.

[Iain Baker]

Oh yeah, my dad's dad was in Vietnam, a navy chaplain. He was with riverine patrols a lot, brown water stuff around the Mekong delta and far inland.

I bet he had some interesting stories to tell. I always found the Vietnam brown water navy fascinating. I remember back when I was a kid there was a game for the ZX Spectrum based on it. And if that isn't showing my age I don't know what does 

https://www.mobygames.com/game/zx-spectrum/gunboat/screenshots/gameShotId,479110/

[HLD_Prophecy]

Looks like something I would have played if I'd been around back then!    Yes he did exchange many letters with me. I've kept them around, somewhere... should preserve them someday as he gave a fair few anecdotes. Proud of what he did for the country...

EDIT: Whoops this is getting waaay off-topic!

I remember I once had a very loose/rough campaign sketch where you played as a local militia pilot in a backwater. Couple of Lokis based on an Arcadia. The "strongpoint" of the militia was a worn, borrowed Satis, the Vireo, battered and patched but up-gunned with heavy terran turrets and a heavy flak. Would have been fun. 

[Snarks]

My suspicion is that beam weapons kill ships so fast that they never get into a position where they can start flying around each other. I think the mission designers also started placing the ships further apart in FS2 compared to FS1.

[General Battuta]

My suspicion is the mission designers stopped using so many attack orders.

[X3N0-Life-Form]

I'm pretty sure that's it. Attack orders worked alright when all you had were (relatively) tiny cruisers equipped with blob turrets - since all the guns were ****, the capships' attack profile didn't really matter much.

With big-ass corvettes with dedicated anti-capship guns, it A) looks so much sillier, B) is a lot more dangerous for the player if the ship they are escorting makes a sharp turn (see the Colossus in High Noon) and C) if your capship starts circling its target while most of its guns are forward-facing (or starts circling the wrong way - like a Sobek exposing its belly for example), its ability to deal damage & look awesome is going to tank.

[0rph3u5]

I had the idea that modified transports/freighters could make good gunboats. Satis, Isis, even Poseidon... give them some better blobs, flak, AAA beams, and they can fly so fast even if a large beam lands a hit it slides off such a tiny target and so gets only a fraction of it's damage in. I mean there are obviously problems. But... a couple dozen Satis hurtling around your Orion pumping heavy flak/heavy terran turrets into it? Also has value as a cheap solution for local militias and struggling rear-line units.

The Satis is being mentioned in the FS1 techroom as having been mistaken for a gunboat at first.

My suspicion is the mission designers stopped using so many attack orders.

That, plus the introduction of beam cannons made the ranges of engagements much longer. In FS1 cruisers have only slight better Avengers (Avenger range: 525m/s * 1,9s = 997.15m ; [species] Turret: 275m/s * 5s = 1.375m) to fight it out. Anti-capital beams are generally capped at a range of 4.000m as per +Weapon Range (for the AI, the actual weapons have much higher ranges).