[TrashMan]

Running away from a Lilith is nothing to be ashamed off. That thing is the most overpowered and imbalanced ship out there.

[Polpolion]

And the Sathanas, the ship with four beams that can kill a destroyer in one hit, isn't?

[eliex]

 If you send a cap ship against another shivan cap ship, then it's dead.
If, though you send Alpha, Beta and Gamma ( Light fighter, Heavy fighter, Bombers ), single-handedly they can kill nearly anything, given that the opponent count is rather fair.

Conclusion: Shivan are dead if a wing of fighters turn up, save for a Sathanas
                   GTVA cap ships are dead if another shivan cap ship turns up. 

[TrashMan]

And the Sathanas, the ship with four beams that can kill a destroyer in one hit, isn't?

for his size? no. Lilith is.

[eliex]

 Just downloaded the GTSD Paladin mod. Perhaps one of the worst super destroyers, merely because of how the original
Hecate destroyer was designed.
 Even superior firepower overall and extreme armour couln't save the Paladin!! 

[AlphaOne]

Whats the Paladin ? A super destroyer based on the Hecate?? Lol who would try something like that yioure better off with the Hattie or the Orion hell youre better of with a deimos or a Iceni class.

[eliex]

 The Paladin is just a severely pumped up Hecate destroyer in armour and firepower. Not to mention the fantastic new weapons that totally ruin the campaign - Return to Sol. ( I forgot who made the campaign but check the campaign list in the Freespace wiki )

Instead of TerSlashes on the sides, they use ULTRA-SGreens that last for about 6 seconds and the ULTRA-Hercs that can get up to 140 speed. AND the best of all is the Ancient ship Olympias and you can exceed the speed to 215!!! WOW !!!! 

[AlphaOne]

wtf? i need to get my hands on this campaign!

[eliex]

 Ya . . . it's a very desirable campaign . . . not to mention how great the storyline is . . . on the third mission you blow up 3 destroyers hahahaha . . . 

If you want it - simply go the Freespace Wiki, go to the user-made campaigns section and click on the Post-Capella section then go to the
Return to Sol. It's the sequel to the Incursion campaign    - AHHH!! I still don't know who made the campaign!! 

It's a real pity that you have to remake your entire data folder - the campaign isn't in a VP unfortunately . . . sob . . . 

Whatever do what the readme says - the campaign is SO worth it!! 

Oh and I'm not free advertising! 

[BengalTiger]

Running away from a Lilith is nothing to be ashamed off. That thing is the most overpowered and imbalanced ship out there.

Well, it's not.












And here's why:

The Aeolus, a pretty light cruiser is armed with:
2 Terran Huge Turrets (2100 m range,  3.0 s between shots, 175 mps blob speed, hull damage per second - 41.7 HP/s, total 83.4 HP/s),
6x Standard Flak (1400 m,  0.15 s,  700 mps,  200 HP/s, total 1200 HP/s- although it'll max out only against big ships due to spread),
2 AAAf's (1500 m,  5.5 s,   24 HP/s, total 48 HP/s)
2 SGreens (4000 m,  45 s,  61 HP/s, total 122 HP/s).
Total damage per second is 1453.4 HP/s, deadly to both capships and strike craft, and hurts from any angle.
It has 38 000 HP, max speed is 30 m/s.

The Lilith, heaviest cruiser in the game:
Shivan Turret Laser x 5 (1250 m,  1.2 s,  250 mps,  50 HP/s, total 250 HP/s),
Shivan Cluster x 2  (450 m,  20 s,  90 mps,  3 HP/s missile+ 12 HP/s for the 8 bomblets each missile launches, total 30 HP/s)
Anti-Fighter Beam x 1 (1500 m,  5 s, 20 HP/s, total 40 HP/s),
Large Red Beam x 1 (4000 m,  10 s,  1359 HP/s),
Total firepower: 1679 HP/s (about an Aeolus plus 2 Kaysers), concentrated in a single, easily disarmable turret with a limited field of fire, defense against strike craft is a joke.
It has 75 000 HP and a top speed of 20 m/s

[TrashMan]

No dude...Lilith is overpowered. It mounts a weapon that's 2 shipsizes above it. Even corvettes don't mount anything nearly as powerful.


Thing is, Lilith jumps in, shoots at Aeolus - Aeolus is dead.
Aeolus jumps in, shoots at Lilith - Lilith is damaged, but turns around and kills aeolus.

[AlphaOne]

I think a more acurate descriprion would be a Deimos jumps in shoots a Lilith the lilith is damaged somewhat ! then the lilith turns around shoots and the Deimos is severly damaged the second shot i believe takes it down! Hows that for overpowering a cruiser!

[eliex]

 And what's there to say that the Aeolus jumps out . . . say 3 kilometres by the Lilith where only beams count?

[AlphaOne]

it doesnt really matter !  Cuz flack and all the other stuff do only small damage compared to the beam cannons! I mean that thing is a cruiser but has the Hp of a corvette ! And the firepower of a corvette! Hell the deimos with all its 4 slashers firing at the lilith wont be able to take it out in time! It will do some damage perhaps get it to 50% hull but the lilith would still win hands down! For the love of bunny that thing has a destroyer beam cannon mounted on it a Large red! And ppl thing putting BG on the Deimos is called overpowering it.

Hell when the deimos has 180.000 hp and at least 2 BG on it then we can talk untill then the lilith is the most unbalanced ship in game.

Hell that thing can chase off a Hecate if the Hecate is without its fighter/bommber screen.

Aniway back to business i just though of something if the shivans have ships of equal or bigger size/volume to those of the GTVA yet they have less beam cannons almost no aaaf defences to speak of but theyr beam cannons kick ass all the time could this be a result of the beam cannon reactors?

I mean all that space must be used for something. Why not for more powerfull or simply more reactors to give those beam cannons that uber damage.

I mean the severe shortages of aaaf defences and teh fact that they have beam cannons placed just in the forward firing ark could mean they deliberately made them this way sacrificing aaaf defences and all area coverage beam cannon emplacement.

This would go some way to explain the way shivan ships are designed and they beam cannons.

However if this is the case then i believe the GTVA in theory should be able to do the same thing but they would have to make theyr ships even bigger in order to acomodate the increased number of reactors for they beam cannons since i do not believe the GTVA is willing to sacrifice they consacrated and proven designs just for the sake of making uber ships with uber beam cannons that can be taken down by 2 wings of bommbers.

[BengalTiger]

 And what's there to say that the Aeolus jumps out . . . say 3 kilometres by the Lilith where only beams count?

After doing some testing:

The Aeolus had a more/less 1:4 chance of disarming the Lilith's main beam.
Without it, the Shivan's toast unless it manages to disarm the GTC with it's turret lasers. Also- if you add fighters or bombers on a disarming mission for both sides, the Lilith gets owned. Hell, it can't do much even without the Aeolus there giving fire support.

it doesnt really matter !  Cuz flack and all the other stuff do only small damage compared to the beam cannons!

Well....
http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Weapon_Comparison_%28FS2%29

Standard Flak has a potential of 200 HP hull damage per second, and it will be close to that when attacking a cruiser, which is a big enough target to have the shells hit it. The Aeolus has 6 flak guns, giving it 1200 HP per second from flak only.

The SGreen does 61 HP per second sustained damage, the Helios can do 226.7 HP/s, and the LRed can do 1359 HP/s.

I mean that thing is a cruiser but has the Hp of a corvette ! And the firepower of a corvette! Hell the deimos with all its 4 slashers firing at the lilith wont be able to take it out in time! It will do some damage perhaps get it to 50% hull but the lilith would still win hands down! For the love of bunny that thing has a destroyer beam cannon mounted on it a Large red! And ppl thing putting BG on the Deimos is called overpowering it.

So what are Mjolnirs? Funny little thing the size of a transport, and does the damage of the Hecate's 2 front beams together...

[TrashMan]

The Lilith can survive the fire from ALL of Aeoluses weapons long enough to turn and kill him with a single shot.
The opposite is not true.

Also, Mjolnirs are a bit bigger than transports and that cannon is ALL They have. No engines and only weak armor - everything was sacrificed for that big beam.

[eliex]

 And that's why a duo trebuchet can totally own a Mjolnir! Even fighter support can't stop that from happening!! 

[AlphaOne]

that is true but a Mjolnir mounted on a ship is a bit more dificult to take out! So to be equl to the Lilith you would have to have the Deimos armed with at lest 2 of these beam cannons !Or even bhetter a cruiser.

also when speaking of the hecate ppl should really start refering to it as a carrier/destroyer since its emphasis is more of that of a C&C carrier heavely armed (not really in my opinion) then a destroyer. Or at least a light-ly armed destroyer.

As for the Tech i still dont have an answear to the whiole generator stuff thing above!

[Androgeos Exeunt]

Actually, I was thinking that the Ravana really should have twice the hull strength than it has now. In my remake of the Slaying Ravana mission, I pitted a GTVA fleet against a Shivan one.

The Shivan fleet consisted of about 24 fighters, the Ravana, a Moloch, a Rakshasa and a Lilith, with an additional Demon as backup.

The GTVA fleet consisted of the Psamtik, Aquitaine, two Sobeks, a Mentu, 8 bombers and 8 fighters.

Without protecting or making the Ravana invulnerable, it goes down in less than five minutes, along with the rest of the Shivan fleet.

I've got the mission attached to this post. I'm not too sure that this is the right place to put it, but I think it really does show that, against a GTVA fleet, a Shivan fleet of equal size is no match.

By the way, make sure that you check through the mission in FRED. I think my Protect events (as well as Invulnerability SEXP triggers) are still there.

[attachment deleted by ninja]

[eliex]

 It's quite good evidence . . . that Terran beams are pieces of scrap . . .
And Vasudan beams rock!

 I for one wasn't sad when the ol' Green beams were replaced with the blues . . . at least it's called "reasonable".
INFERNO RULES!!