[neoterran]

That's just plain stupid, but as I've said before, religion has no rationality either, you just have to believe. Hey if people wanna hang around killing each other over something like that, I say, darwinism in action.

Sorry to hear about your uncle btw.

[Flipside]

Thanks, it's far from unexpected, MND takes years to run it's course, but still not easy to see him nowadays.

I'll agree that, if it were purely between Israel and Palestine, I'd almost be of the opinon of 'Let them sort it out themselves', but the thing that worries me is the possiblity of other Middle Eastern countries getting involved. Hopefully this will wind down, but if it escalates, things will get far far worse before they get better.

[Rictor]

But here's the thing. Even if the Arabs spontaneously rise up and unite in their hatred for Israel, which isn't likely to happen due to internal mistrust, competition for power, conflicting idealogies etc, they would still get their asses handed to them. And Israel is too small to grab any significant piece of land and hold on to it. So everyone worrks out in the end. Everyone is kept in check by their respective faults, and the worst you get is low-level fighting with few casualties compared to real war.

I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I no longer take the "oh, how terrible that everyone is fighting, can't we all just love our fellow man" position. There's peace everywhere else, while at least these two factions, Israelis and Palestinians, seem happy enough to fight each other. If they don't consider their dead to be too great a cost, neither will I. In som wierd way, it's encouraging to know that there are people with enough conviction to fight and die for their beliefs, regardless of what those beliefs might be and whether I agree with them.

By the way, watch your ass Sandwich. Despite the delicious flavour, there is no need for you to become a grilled Sandwich.

[IceFire]

Thanks, it's far from unexpected, MND takes years to run it's course, but still not easy to see him nowadays.

I'll agree that, if it were purely between Israel and Palestine, I'd almost be of the opinon of 'Let them sort it out themselves', but the thing that worries me is the possiblity of other Middle Eastern countries getting involved. Hopefully this will wind down, but if it escalates, things will get far far worse before they get better.

This is my concern.  With the tensions with Iran, the violence in Iraq, and Israel attacking targets in Lebanon it could get pretty messy if someone decides to intervene.  Iran's president did say he wanted to wipe Israel off the map so this would be a pretty good pretext.  And the US would get to drop bombs on Iran's nuclear ambitions peaceful or otherwise.  Heck...the Israel could do it for them.  It'd be pretty messy one way or another...

[Nuclear1]

And Israel is too small to grab any significant piece of land and hold on to it.

They seemed to do just fine with that from 1967-1973, IIRC, and that was before they had nuclear weapons.

In one sense, you're right--the Israelis might not be able to hold on to additional territory due to their small size (1967-1973 was a ceasefire and there was no need for Israel to actively defend its new territory against invading forces). The important thing is, though, that Israel has proven itself to be able to destroy whatever forces are holding certain territories and severely limit the chance of a counterattack.

[IceFire]

They do have the worlds largest airforce if I'm not mistaken.  It was good the first time...this time they would have a huge advantage in numbers and more importantly in technology.

[Charismatic]

1 israle soldier to 65 pala's. 2 for 2000 pala's, and 3 for around 3500 palas.

I say, go israle! I say 'kill all the palastinions and\or kick them of israles land (gaza strip and the other place. West bank?)'. I say israle, dont take ****, go kick their ass. Give no one of their fukin ases back. Kill all 2000 and ship their heads to them and threaton the laboninites, to give israle their guys back or they will kick majoir ass. Thats how thsi **** should be done.
Israle should take back its birthright land.
This whole arab\muslim thing all hapened cauze israle did a dumbass move and disobeyed god way back when. Now look at the trouble its gettin them into? Constant wars with the group of people they should have wiped out in the first place b4 they became a problem.

~Ephili~

[Ghostavo]

1 israle soldier to 65 pala's. 2 for 2000 pala's, and 3 for around 3500 palas.

I say, go israle! I say 'kill all the palastinions and\or kick them of israles land (gaza strip and the other place. West bank?)'. I say israle, dont take ****, go kick their ass. Give no one of their fukin ases back. Kill all 2000 and ship their heads to them and threaton the laboninites, to give israle their guys back or they will kick majoir ass. Thats how thsi **** should be done.
Israle should take back its birthright land.
This whole arab\muslim thing all hapened cauze israle did a dumbass move and disobeyed god way back when. Now look at the trouble its gettin them into? Constant wars with the group of people they should have wiped out in the first place b4 they became a problem.

~Ephili~

That's a kind of hypocrital thing to say from someone who lives in a land that was previously "owned" by another ethinic group.

[Turambar]

i really dont want to get into this one again....


i cant influence how its going to happen, and i cant change peoples minds about it, i'll sit back and watch as the people who are wrong continue to prove that fairness is an ideal which is never practiced.

[Nuclear1]

They do have the worlds largest airforce if I'm not mistaken.  It was good the first time...this time they would have a huge advantage in numbers and more importantly in technology.

Actually, the top three spots for the world's largest air forces are currently held by the US, Russia, and China in terms of sheer number of aircraft and size. Israel definitely has one of the best air forces in the world, made so thanks to their struggle for survival in the Middle East, in terms of making the best use out of what they have, and they've managed to do some pretty impressive stuff, including bombing the Osirak reactor and grounding the entire Egyptian, Jordanian, and Syrian air forces all in one day.

But yeah, their military definitely has the edge in terms of technology and training. Adding nuclear deterrence to that, the Israeli military is essentially one of the best in the world.

[Rictor]

Israel also recently signed a deal for 100 F-35s, so their air superiority is assured for three or four more decades at the least. And even though Russia usually sells equipment to Israel-unfriendly countries, including the likes of Syria and Iran, they've been reluctant to sell their best equipment, stuff which could stand toe to toe with Israeli weapons like the Su-30MKI and S-300. Unless something pretty drastic happens, all of Israel's enemies are hopelessly outgunned and outdated.

[redmenace]

All of this will lead israel to never give the palestinians any wiggle room. Everytime they let their gaurd down or give in, the Palestinians start up with the ****.

[IceFire]

Interesting...100 F-35's...thats going to definately help Lockheed's development costs with that plane.  I wonder if they were interested with the F-35A or B.

[Rictor]

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/06/israel-plans-to-buy-over-100-f35s/index.php#more

100 F-35s and 24 F-22s. Man, they're going to be better armed than God himself.

Though I think their main issue is that Lockheed wants all the avionics locked down, hell Britain was barely able to extract a compromise, and Israel always prefers to install homegrown electronics because, hell, they're better than anyone else's. In he end, they'll probably we able to get what they want, like with the F-16.

[NGTM-1R]

Israeli installs homegrown avonics over issues of national pride more then anything else...they make great computers, but systems integration using those computers is a killer. Their indigenous guided weaponry pretty much proves the point; the Gabriel and Python are a generation or two behind their US equivalents (Harpoon 1C and Sidewinder M).

Don't quite rule out the Arabs on technological grounds either. We sold Eygpt a few brigades worth of M1A1s.

[redmenace]

Except Egypt isn't a prototypical arab country surrounding Israel

[Bobboau]

That's a kind of hypocrital thing to say from someone who lives in a land that was previously "owned" by another ethinic group.

...is it?

[Nuclear1]

Except Egypt isn't a prototypical arab country surrounding Israel

Egypt does have a history of being an aggressor against Israel; 1948 and 1973 being the obvious ones.

ngtm1r: Do you remember which administration sold Egypt the M1's? No sarcasm or anything here; I'm asking a serious question.

[Charismatic]

Not at all. We were farmers, they are fags. No comparison.

So im gathering that the F-35's are the best fighter model out there? Anyone know their statistics and weaponry specs?

[Mefustae]

So im gathering that the F-35's are the best fighter model out there? Anyone know their statistics and weaponry specs?

This site gives you a nice description of the basic statistics and weaponry.