Author Topic: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?  (Read 46245 times)

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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
If you wish to delve into the BP canon, when you read up on the profile of Steele, you'll even notice that he was educated in a 'Space War College' that expressly deals with military courses, such as Bachelors in 'Battlefield Psychology' and Masters in 'Strategic Studies', with treatises written on military matters such as warship design. This implies by far, a much greater degree of militarism than any nation we've ever seen on Earth

Those were all actually based on institutions located in democratic nations on Earth right now.  :nervous: But the GTVA is certainly more hardcore than the UEF.

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Why is this the accepted consensus? For the love of me i cannot understand why a civilization which is both technologically and numerically disadvantaged

Whoa, whoa, hang on. The UEF lacks a number of the GTVA's most powerful technologies, but it does have excellent antimatter farms and an enormously capable scientific community. Moreover, numerically disadvantaged? Sol contains population to more or less match the rest of the GTVA, not to mention the corresponding industrial base.

Sol has been colonized for centuries. The rest of the GTVA worlds have been colonized, IIRC, for less than a century - humanity didn't get starflight until fairly soon before FreeSpace 1.

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the UEF should be horrifically losing all battles involving capships, but instead we see the exact opposite

We can have a reasonable discussion here, but not if you're going to say things like 'the GTVA horrifically loses all battles involving capships'.  ;)

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such as 4 frigates and 2 cruisers taking on 4 corvettes, 4 cruisers and a destroyer with ZERO losses (delanda est)

Frigates are significantly more badass than corvettes - the strike package there was specifically designed to do the job without losses. A Karuna is more of a half-destroyer than it is a corvette.

Also, I think you're forgetting an important part of the mission - the job you did. The UEF has always been described as having a well-equipped fighter corps, and the Wargods were elite pilots. Delenda Est is hardly easy, at least on realistic difficulties - the attack can fail if the gunships don't do their jobs.

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(amusingly, the force you're deployed against at the start, is more than capable of tearing apart the Imperiuse and the escort corvette assuming they all start in range)

No it's not. It may look that way in FRED, but I'm guessing you haven't worked in all of their capabilities.

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A frigate is roughly the same mass as a corvette (they're longer, but much slimmer), but has some of its space and personnel taken up by a fighter bay and maintenance facilities, so you'd assume it wouldn't perform as well in a direct combat role as a corvette.

The assumption is incorrect. GTVA and UEF doctrine alike dictate somewhere between one and a half and two corvettes as an even match for a frigate.

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In the mission before that, we see an Orion with full fighter complement run away from 2 Karunas approaching it in an optimal broadside position for the Orion, yet strangely the Orion jumped out?

Brother...cool down and think about this like a battlefield commander.

Two Karunas isn't enough to take on the Carthage. Not at all. But Lopez is smart. She knows that if she stays there and engages, she's gonna get jumped from another angle.

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If we replaced those Karunas with Deimos corvettes, although the Orion would take substantial damage, the plan would be considered doomed to failure. So why are ships with less powerful weaponry seemingly performing better against a souped up version of a ship which would ordinarily kill a pair of Deimos. This puzzles me beyond all belief

Because the Karuna is a more powerful tactical force than the Deimos. Pretty simple. What it lacks in brute force, it makes up for in the ability to blow the hell out of turrets with its gauss cannons and sling antimatter weapons at long range.

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Tl;Dr: Peace loving hippies with inferior tech are somehow performing ridiculously well against a higher tech society, geared for war, with nearly a century of constant warfare to hone their skills, weapons and ship designs. Wtf

TL;DR: enormous industrial society with highly advanced technology is gradually losing war to military experts with different but also highly advanced technology and superior combat doctrine.

Makes sense to me.

You just seem to have some fundamental misconceptions about the technological and industrial balance here, as well as the tactical capabilities of the relevant combatants.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 08:57:36 am by General Battuta »

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
I think that BP's balance between the two sides is pretty spot on, so I have no clue on what TOA is banging about.

The only issue I have with the campaign is the big "**** you" with the imperieuse at the end, I mean, we got the trouble to steal it and it was a pain in the ass (I kept failing the mission because whenever I realised what was going on, already the pods were jumping out...), only to reach the final mission and watch it kick our butts off.

Now, I may have missed some plot points since I skimmed most of the debriefings, but still!

Of course, it's the kind of "**** you!" that doesn't piss me off, since it's part and parcel of the story.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
Wait what.

The ship that you capture, and that launches escape pods, is the Agincourt. It's a logistic ship. A big, hugeass freighter. Nothing in common with the Imperieuse, a Titan-class Destroyer with 3 BBlues of death and more fighters than you can count.

Also, if you didn't read the fiction, then you didn't really played to WiH.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
I think that BP's balance between the two sides is pretty spot on, so I have no clue on what TOA is banging about.

The only issue I have with the campaign is the big "**** you" with the imperieuse at the end, I mean, we got the trouble to steal it and it was a pain in the ass (I kept failing the mission because whenever I realised what was going on, already the pods were jumping out...), only to reach the final mission and watch it kick our butts off.

wwwwwwwait

The ship you stole was the Agincourt, a logistics and supply ship.

The ship that ambushes the Wargods in Delenda Est is the Imperieuse, a fully armed next-generation destroyer/carrier.

The war would be going really badly if the Titan destroyers were just logistics ships.

 
Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
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such as 4 frigates and 2 cruisers taking on 4 corvettes, 4 cruisers and a destroyer with ZERO losses (delanda est).

You're forgetting two important things:

1. All four frigates were Karunas.

2. Beam damage in the FreeSpace 2 engine is applied per-frame.

 ;)

On a more serious note, I'd like to point out that perhaps the Wargods cutting a swathe through the Carthage's escorts is pretty good proof that UEF tech is not inferior.  :wtf:

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The beams wouldn't be sufficient to annihilate even one of the Karunas with one salvo and in all likelyhood that's all an Orion will ever get off. Because there were Uriels present, who just completely disarmed two dedicated anti-fighter ships (a Deimos and an Aeolus), so they'd chew through what little fighter defense the Carthage had in no time. Add to that the Apocalypse torpedoes and massdrivers and you got a very well armored and completely disarmed sitting duck. Maybe MAYBE the Carthage would have been able to take down one Karuna, but both? Unlikely in the extreme.

You're forgetting that the Carthage's port broadside BGreen emitter has more hitpoints than the ship's actual hull. :p

I mean, seriously, why don't they build the entire ship out of that stuff? Is there just not enough salvaged Volition Bravos armor plating to go around? ;)

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The only issue I have with the campaign is the big "**** you" with the imperieuse at the end, I mean, we got the trouble to steal it and it was a pain in the ass (I kept failing the mission because whenever I realised what was going on, already the pods were jumping out...), only to reach the final mission and watch it kick our butts off.

lolwut?

Either I missed some fairly important missions, I'm completely misreading your post, or you're confusing the Imperieuse with the Agincourt.

 

Offline Destiny

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Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
I think he very well is. But TBH I got pretty pissed at Laporte for saying 'massacring pods now!' during The Plunder.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
I think he very well is. But TBH I got pretty pissed at Laporte for saying 'massacring pods now!' during The Plunder.

That was pretty clearly a veiled, acerbic protest, not some kind of celebration. She even says she hopes they were unmanned afterward.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
I got pretty pissed at Laporte for saying 'massacring pods now!' during The Plunder.
Replay that mish. She pretty clearly states that she hopes these pods were automated to call for reinforcements after jumping and not "full of panicked crewmen".

EDIT: STOP NINJA'ING MEE
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

Mod management tools     -     Wiki stuff!     -     Help us help you

666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 
Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
The intent of that line will probably be a lot more clear when you guys find someone other than Microsoft Mary to say it.  ;)

 

Offline -Norbert-

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Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
The only thing about that mission I was a bit disappointed was, that the escape pods don't have an engine subsystem. On my first playthrough I tried to disable them with the scalpel, but that didn't do anything other than producing pretty lights.

 

Offline Destiny

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Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
Give 'em time to do the voice actin', heheh. Although she might hope they were unmanned, massacring is a very strong word.

I mean, say the sentence 'Massacring escape pods now!', to yourself. Don't you feel anything? If not, try saying it to your family or someone. They'd think you're nuts or something and laugh at you :P

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
Give 'em time to do the voice actin', heheh. Although she might hope they were unmanned, massacring is a very strong word.

I mean, say the sentence 'Massacring escape pods now!', to yourself. Don't you feel anything? If not, try saying it to your family or someone. They'd think you're nuts or something and laugh at you :P

Did you read the explanation of the line above? Are you a native English speaker? Do you see what Laporte is saying with the line?

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
I think that BP's balance between the two sides is pretty spot on, so I have no clue on what TOA is banging about.

The only issue I have with the campaign is the big "**** you" with the imperieuse at the end, I mean, we got the trouble to steal it and it was a pain in the ass (I kept failing the mission because whenever I realised what was going on, already the pods were jumping out...), only to reach the final mission and watch it kick our butts off.

wwwwwwwait

The ship you stole was the Agincourt, a logistics and supply ship.

The ship that ambushes the Wargods in Delenda Est is the Imperieuse, a fully armed next-generation destroyer/carrier.

The war would be going really badly if the Titan destroyers were just logistics ships.

Ahhh now I see what went wrong in the campaign.

My own ****ing brain! :lol:

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
Also, if you didn't read the fiction, then you didn't really played to WiH.

I read.... half of it.....

 

Offline SypheDMar

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Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
The only thing about that mission I was a bit disappointed was, that the escape pods don't have an engine subsystem. On my first playthrough I tried to disable them with the scalpel, but that didn't do anything other than producing pretty lights.
I'm almost certain I disabled the escape pods, but the mission wouldn't continue until it went away.

 

Offline Destiny

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Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
They said Steele might've planned for all that, like the Agincourt's theft and all that. But...Steele didn't seem to be fazed by it. Chiwetel Steele, eh...

What is the origin of Chiwetel? French? No idea about Steele, heheh.

Give 'em time to do the voice actin', heheh. Although she might hope they were unmanned, massacring is a very strong word.

I mean, say the sentence 'Massacring escape pods now!', to yourself. Don't you feel anything? If not, try saying it to your family or someone. They'd think you're nuts or something and laugh at you :P

Did you read the explanation of the line above? Are you a native English speaker? Do you see what Laporte is saying with the line?
I've read the explanation, and yes, I'm a native English speaker. But no, I don't see what Laporte is saying, if anything it was a horrible attempt at sour sarcasm (if that's intended) in a 'serious' situation. I don't deny I'm dense most of the time, but I'm sure there are better words. If not, I really don't get Laporte...

 
Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
The only thing about that mission I was a bit disappointed was, that the escape pods don't have an engine subsystem. On my first playthrough I tried to disable them with the scalpel, but that didn't do anything other than producing pretty lights.
I'm almost certain I disabled the escape pods, but the mission wouldn't continue until it went away.

I've tried disabling them with Scalpels and never managed to do it. Unless the Hermes' engine hitbox is messed up and I didn't know about it, I dont think they're actually disable-able.

And Luis, I kinda want to know how WiH worked out in your mind when you were confusing those two ships. It must have been...surreal  :lol:

 

Offline Destiny

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Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
The only thing about that mission I was a bit disappointed was, that the escape pods don't have an engine subsystem. On my first playthrough I tried to disable them with the scalpel, but that didn't do anything other than producing pretty lights.
I'm almost certain I disabled the escape pods, but the mission wouldn't continue until it went away.

I've tried disabling them with Scalpels and never managed to do it. Unless the Hermes' engine hitbox is messed up and I didn't know about it, I dont think they're actually disable-able.

And Luis, I kinda want to know how WiH worked out in your mind when you were confusing those two ships. It must have been...surreal  :lol:


They look eerily similar actually.

 
Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
Give 'em time to do the voice actin', heheh. Although she might hope they were unmanned, massacring is a very strong word.

I mean, say the sentence 'Massacring escape pods now!', to yourself. Don't you feel anything? If not, try saying it to your family or someone. They'd think you're nuts or something and laugh at you :P

Did you read the explanation of the line above? Are you a native English speaker? Do you see what Laporte is saying with the line?

While the subsequent line about hoping the pods were unmanned partially clears things up, the difference between an enthusiastic "massacring escape pods now!" and a disgusted/sarcastic "massacring escape pods now!" is 100% tonal. The tone we had to work with was "mass-uh-CURRR-ring ess-CAYP PAWDZ now," which doesn't give us a hell of a lot of hints. :p

As presented currently, the scene can validly be interpreted as Noemi first bloodthirstily going for the kill, and subsequently expressing remorse/hoping she didn't actually kill anyone. Given the fact that by this point the GTVA had suspended BETAC and massacred its fair share of defenseless civilians, coupled with Noemi's deeply-conflicted-verging-on-mentally-ill personality, this reading of her lines isn't exactly far fetched.

That said, given the success of AoA I'm sure you guys will find a voice actor who will clean up this little problem quite handily.

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What is the origin of Chiwetel? French?

Igbo origin, Anglicized short form of Chiwetelu.

As for the difference between an Anemoi and a Titan, it would have been pretty hilarious if Steele had shown up during Delenda Est with the Agincourt.  :lol:

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
Give 'em time to do the voice actin', heheh. Although she might hope they were unmanned, massacring is a very strong word.

I mean, say the sentence 'Massacring escape pods now!', to yourself. Don't you feel anything? If not, try saying it to your family or someone. They'd think you're nuts or something and laugh at you :P

Did you read the explanation of the line above? Are you a native English speaker? Do you see what Laporte is saying with the line?
I've read the explanation, and yes, I'm a native English speaker. But no, I don't see what Laporte is saying, if anything it was a horrible attempt at sour sarcasm (if that's intended) in a 'serious' situation. I don't deny I'm dense most of the time, but I'm sure there are better words. If not, I really don't get Laporte...

She's protesting the order and calling attention to the fact that they could well be slaughtering a bunch of panicked deckhands.