Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Angelus on November 16, 2010, 04:55:02 am
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Obsidian stories? Why exactly are they so fabolous? Meh.
Have you never played the second KotOR game? The one that questioned all of the established facts about the Sith, Jedi, and the Force? The storyline is excellent, and the game would have been far better if LucasArts, the publisher and damn them, hadn't forced it to be released early for the Christmas market with poor QA and lots of cut content.
Uhm no. This is probably the most un-Star Wars-ish game, story wise.
Star Wars is about good vs. evil. Black and white. Not different shades of grey ( with exceptions of Han Solo and Lando), which the story of KOTOR2 tried.
In my opinion, the story in KOTOR2 fails. In any other universe i appreciate this kind of story telling, but not in Star Wars.
Also, the whole Force plot was quite ****. Lucas already deconstructed the Force with Midichlorians. KOTOR2 trashed it and threw the parts into the meatgrinder.
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Uhm no. This is probably the most un-Star Wars-ish game, story wise.
Star Wars is about good vs. evil. Black and white. Not different shades of grey ( with exceptions of Han Solo and Lando), which the story of KOTOR2 tried.
In my opinion, the story in KOTOR2 fails. In any other universe i appreciate this kind of story telling, but not in Star Wars.
Also, the whole Force plot was quite ****. Lucas already deconstructed the Force with Midichlorians. KOTOR2 trashed it and threw the parts into the meatgrinder.
ITT: Massive fanboy who can't accept change
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ITT: Massive fanboy who can't accept change
ITT: Shut the **** up and watch the movies again. It's cut. It's dried.
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ITT: Massive fanboy who can't accept change
ITT: Shut the **** up and watch the movies again. It's cut. It's dried.
and I dont know about you but I can quite easily watch and enjoy the movies without engaging my brain, the deepest thing going off are palpatines plots within plots. As you say the films are pure good vs evil and in that are on a par with die hard films aka light viewing. when I play an single play RPG I like a story with body to it and in a simple Good vs Evil it is hard (not impossible) to get that so you have to do other things as well and exploring morality is a familiar way to do that.
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Uhm no. This is probably the most un-Star Wars-ish game, story wise.
Star Wars is about good vs. evil. Black and white. Not different shades of grey ( with exceptions of Han Solo and Lando), which the story of KOTOR2 tried.
In my opinion, the story in KOTOR2 fails. In any other universe i appreciate this kind of story telling, but not in Star Wars.
Also, the whole Force plot was quite ****. Lucas already deconstructed the Force with Midichlorians. KOTOR2 trashed it and threw the parts into the meatgrinder.
ITT: Massive fanboy who can't accept change
considering the amount of fanboys who can't accept the changes and the additions in the prequels, i'm in good company. :P
There are changes to the good, and to the bad. In KOTOR2, it was for the bad.
KOTOR2 just isn't Star Wars, in my opinion, with all the force gibberish it doesn't feel like Star Wars.
KOTOR1 did it almost right, you can be good or evil.
*snip*
and I dont know about you but I can quite easily watch and enjoy the movies without engaging my brain, the deepest thing going off are palpatines plots within plots. As you say the films are pure good vs evil and in that are on a par with die hard films aka light viewing. when I play an single play RPG I like a story with body to it and in a simple Good vs Evil it is hard (not impossible) to get that so you have to do other things as well and exploring morality is a familiar way to do that.
i play RPGs alot, and i agree that having different shades of grey in the plot is a good thing.
Just not in a Star Wars game. That's just my opinion.
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ontopic:
the release schedule for hell, should be made by 3d Realms. :P
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I don't mind the shades of gray in KOTOR2 ..I mind the horrible plot and even worse explanations.
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and I dont know about you but I can quite easily watch and enjoy the movies without engaging my brain, the deepest thing going off are palpatines plots within plots. As you say the films are pure good vs evil and in that are on a par with die hard films aka light viewing. when I play an single play RPG I like a story with body to it and in a simple Good vs Evil it is hard (not impossible) to get that so you have to do other things as well and exploring morality is a familiar way to do that.
So you're saying they went for shades of gray in the story because they were lazy? Because it was the easiest way to introduce dramatic tension?
****, it's bad fanfiction now. We have to introduce dramatic tension, so we will do something that cannot reasonably be fitted into the universe!
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The only good work done in Star Wars is the stuff that tries to question the binary of the setting. KOTOR II, Shatterpoint, Traitor.
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The only good work done in Star Wars is the stuff that tries to question the binary of the setting. KOTOR II, Shatterpoint, Traitor.
The Thrawn Trilogy. You can't read that without absolutely loving Thrawn, even though he's a smurf with glowing red eyes that wants to defeat the heroes.
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I read the Thrawn trilogy and loved it as a teen, along with the X-Wing books. And I look back on them fondly. But I'm not sure I'd be as blown away if I read them today.
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I read the Thrawn trilogy and loved it as a teen, along with the X-Wing books. And I look back on them fondly. But I'm not sure I'd be as blown away if I read them today.
the issue with rereading Thrawn trilogy is that it is heavily based on a character capable of reaching unexpected but "truthful" conclusions about his enemies, once you have read the books that element of surprise is lost, its like re watching episodes of the mentalist.
With the x-wing series like you i read them as a teen and loved them but for the most part they are like watching an action movie you see it once and enjoy it, you watch it again and its not as special.
and I dont know about you but I can quite easily watch and enjoy the movies without engaging my brain, the deepest thing going off are palpatines plots within plots. As you say the films are pure good vs evil and in that are on a par with die hard films aka light viewing. when I play an single play RPG I like a story with body to it and in a simple Good vs Evil it is hard (not impossible) to get that so you have to do other things as well and exploring morality is a familiar way to do that.
So you're saying they went for shades of gray in the story because they were lazy? Because it was the easiest way to introduce dramatic tension?
****, it's bad fanfiction now. We have to introduce dramatic tension, so we will do something that cannot reasonably be fitted into the universe!
It's a useful and valid literary tool is what I am saying and it is one most people are familiar with and can help the reader/viewer/gamer feel empathy for the situation. I cant comment on if the plot writer was being lazy or not because I wan't there and I wasn't saying anything like that, the only thing I meant to imply was that it is an often used technique which many people are familiar with, and being familiar with something doesn't necessarily make it easy.
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I think the shades of gray is a great thing, and makes sense when you think about how many jedi really fall, its not exactly LOL IM EVEL NOW, K? it often comes from good intentions. ends justify the means and that jazz.
plus, it disects the jedi, and they may fight for good, but many of the things they do aren't good, from a certain point of view
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The fall of the Jedi Order and the rise of the Empire can be attributed almost completely to the dogmatic blindness of Yoda and his gang of yes-men. Whether it's a gulf of species psychology or simply inflexibility bred by age, Yoda's insistence on standards that forced the clearly dangerous and clearly mistrained Anakin into hiding his relationship with Padme led to Anakin's fall.
If the Jedi order had presented this youth with a reasonable outlet for his frustrations and fears - a confidante, a chance to check up on his mom, an opening to get past teenage infatuation and to build professional relationship with a much older woman - knowing full well that he had been taken into the order too old to obey the usual strictures of detachment, they could've saved themselves. But, well, Yoda; Yoda was the first skeptic of Anakin's Jedi potential but then failed to follow up on that skepticism in any meaningful way. The kid grew up with a bomb in his head! How could he not be severely screwed up? Applying the usual Buddhist standards of utter worldly detachment to him was a doomed affair.
So instead we get an unstable Anakin Force-compelling Padme into falling for him. He knew he was immensely powerful and yet all he could do was exert that power clumsily to grope at things he wanted and to shield himself from pain. When his power failed him (as with his mother) he blamed it on the Jedi for holding him back. In the end he believed that only absolute power and absolute control could secure his world and hide him from further hurt. And when that went wrong he unwittingly, in his agony, killed Padme - a last act of spiteful control, the exertion of power to punish betrayal. She was always just a toy for him, whether he realized it or not.
Things would have been different with Qui-Gon on the Council and Yoda shuffled off to babble at younglings.
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The fall of the Jedi Order and the rise of the Empire can be attributed almost completely to the dogmatic blindness of Yoda and his gang of yes-men. Whether it's a gulf of species psychology or simply inflexibility bred by age, Yoda's insistence on standards that forced the clearly dangerous and clearly mistrained Anakin into hiding his relationship with Padme led to Anakin's fall.
If the Jedi order had presented this youth with a reasonable outlet for his frustrations and fears - a confidante, a chance to check up on his mom, an opening to get past teenage infatuation and to build professional relationship with a much older woman - knowing full well that he had been taken into the order too old to obey the usual strictures of detachment, they could've saved themselves. But, well, Yoda; Yoda was the first skeptic of Anakin's Jedi potential but then failed to follow up on that skepticism in any meaningful way. So instead we get an unstable Anakin Force-compelling Padme into falling for him. He knew he was immensely powerful and yet all he could do was exert that power clumsily to grope at things he wanted. When his power failed him (as with his mother) he blamed it on the Jedi for holding him back.
Things would have been different with Qui-Gon on the Council and Yoda shuffled off to babble at younglings.
I agree that packing yoda off to poke kids with that stick of his would have been a good idea but shame that in general he was to "respected" for that to ever happen. As for Qui-Gon I believe he would have been more useful to the Jedi continuing his service as a knight/low level master, training Anakin and poking the council when they got to stodgy, he had burned to much influence over the years to ever be a respected council member but at the same time very useful and reliable for situations where an unconventional (by the Jedi's standards) and flexable approach was needed, Naboo was a good example.
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Shades of gray would be what finally brings peace to the Star Wars galaxy. The Good vs Evil thing has only led to a constant seesaw between tight wad Jedi, to uppity and stupid to keep the Sith and check and ham fisted Sith to busy being evil jackasses to hold onto power once they've got it. Whole galaxy is constantly embroiled in war over because neither side can rule properly.
Seriously if ever a group of realpolitik force users came around, it'd be the best thing for the Galaxy far far away.
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The fall of the Jedi Order and the rise of the Empire can be attributed almost completely to the dogmatic blindness of George Lucas and his gang of yes-men. Whether it's a gulf of species psychology or simply inflexibility bred by age, George Lucas' insistence on standards that forced the clearly dangerous and clearly mistrained Anakin into hiding his relationship with Padme led to Anakin's fall.
If the Jedi order had presented this youth with a reasonable outlet for his frustrations and fears - a confidante, a chance to check up on his mom, an opening to get past teenage infatuation and to build professional relationship with a much older woman - knowing full well that he had been taken into the order too old to obey the usual strictures of detachment, they could've saved themselves. But, well, George Lucas; George Lucas was the first skeptic of Anakin's Jedi potential but then failed to follow up on that skepticism in any meaningful way. The kid grew up with a bomb in his head! How could he not be severely screwed up? Applying the usual Buddhist standards of utter worldly detachment to him was a doomed affair.
So instead we get an unstable Anakin Force-compelling Padme into falling for him. He knew he was immensely powerful and yet all he could do was exert that power clumsily to grope at things he wanted and to shield himself from pain. When his power failed him (as with his mother) he blamed it on the Jedi for holding him back. In the end he believed that only absolute power and absolute control could secure his world and hide him from further hurt. And when that went wrong he unwittingly, in his agony, killed Padme - a last act of spiteful control, the exertion of power to punish betrayal. She was always just a toy for him, whether he realized it or not.
Things would have been different with Irvin Kershner on the Council and George Lucas shuffled off to babble at younglings.
There, fixed that for you.
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Things would have been different with Irvin Kershner on the Council and Yoda shuffled off to babble at younglings.
There, fixed that for you.
(http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jezebel/2010/10/agreebyrd.gif)
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@Starslayer:
It's Star Wars, not Star Bore-us. :P
No frikkin peace in the Galaxy far far away. Imagine A New Hope, and all that happens is, that the people there eat Bruallki and drink Forvian Beer and talk about the latest Mon Cal zero G aqua show.
@Battuta:
Yeah, Qui Gon would have been a different kind of Master of Anakin. But for this, George would have to rewrite the prequels, drop the Original trilogy and declare, it never happened.
Kinda tricky to pull of, with all the millions of fans of TOT, who love the Black and white approach of said trilogy. :P
Wait, he could have tried to pull off the Red Matter thing. We know it works, right?
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@Starslayer:
It's Star Wars, not Star Bore-us. :P
I find the fact that all Sith/Jedi confrontations follow a predictable path on a fairly routine cycle to be boring.
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Knights of the Empire, FTFW. Lawful Neutral instead of Lawful Good.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Knights
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KOTOR2 was kind of crappy, but not because of the moral ambiguity. That was the good part.
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KOTOR2 was kind of crappy, but not because of the moral ambiguity. That was the good part.
well yeah, It was the bit where it wasn't finished that made it suck.
and you could argue that the gameplay/visuals were awfully similar to KOTOR1
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KOTOR2 was kind of crappy, but not because of the moral ambiguity. That was the good part.
well yeah, It was the bit where it wasn't finished that made it suck.
and you could argue that the gameplay/visuals were awfully similar to KOTOR1
the visuals were actually worse, in comparison with KOTOR1, I think.
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The only good work done in Star Wars is the stuff that tries to question the binary of the setting. KOTOR II, Shatterpoint, Traitor.
So the other Zahn books don't count? Allegiance, Spectre of the Past/Vision of the Future?
Don't try to sell me on these as examining shades of gray vis-a-vis the Force, because they don't. They do plenty of examinations of shades of gray, but they set out the case that for a Jedi things are black or white very strongly as well. Different standards for those with different abilities. Other books would suggest that the same standards apply to all regardless of differing abilities.
It's a useful and valid literary tool is what I am saying and it is one most people are familiar with and can help the reader/viewer/gamer feel empathy for the situation.
That's just blathering. It's only useful and valid if the setting allows for it. And the setting does not.
Shades of gray would be what finally brings peace to the Star Wars galaxy. The Good vs Evil thing has only led to a constant seesaw between tight wad Jedi, to uppity and stupid to keep the Sith and check and ham fisted Sith to busy being evil jackasses to hold onto power once they've got it. Whole galaxy is constantly embroiled in war over because neither side can rule properly.
I hate to point it out, but you're not seeing the forest for the trees. Like the ten thousand years of the Old Republic or the period after Vision of the Future but before the Vong came along. Working long-term systems have existed, and your point is without evidence.
Seriously if ever a group of realpolitik force users came around, it'd be the best thing for the Galaxy far far away.
Force don't work that way.
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The only good work done in Star Wars is the stuff that tries to question the binary of the setting. KOTOR II, Shatterpoint, Traitor.
So the other Zahn books don't count? Allegiance, Spectre of the Past/Vision of the Future?
Don't try to sell me on these as examining shades of gray vis-a-vis the Force, because they don't. They do plenty of examinations of shades of gray, but they set out the case that for a Jedi things are black or white very strongly as well. Different standards for those with different abilities. Other books would suggest that the same standards apply to all regardless of differing abilities.
I liked Zahn when I was younger but I'm not sure I would be as into his work now (although I've spent time working with the man in person and he is incredibly friendly and fun). I don't think they're as good as Stover's stuff; for all their structural elegance they don't always challenge. I did, however, admire his commitment to spackling away the stupid stuff in both the movies and EU.
Force don't work that way.
Pff. The Force is just an ability. Morality is brought to the table by the wielder. The Potentium is truth.
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It's a useful and valid literary tool is what I am saying and it is one most people are familiar with and can help the reader/viewer/gamer feel empathy for the situation.
That's just blathering. It's only useful and valid if the setting allows for it. And the setting does not.
Proper quoting ftw. --Jeff Vader
Wtf???? The Jedi are about doing what is best for the galaxy hence the Good in good vs evil and the Sith are about what is best for them selves which though not strictly speaking evil in it self often ends in evil results some where down the line. Then you have the characters in the middle many of which as with real life are a mix of good and evil so how is shades of grey not valid in the star wars setting?
And before you go on about Palpatine and Anakin working to create order in the galaxy, that is a goal they wanted purely for themselves thus selfish, in Palpatine’s case he also wanted power for powers sake.
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Shades of gray would be what finally brings peace to the Star Wars galaxy. The Good vs Evil thing has only led to a constant seesaw between tight wad Jedi, to uppity and stupid to keep the Sith and check and ham fisted Sith to busy being evil jackasses to hold onto power once they've got it. Whole galaxy is constantly embroiled in war over because neither side can rule properly.
I hate to point it out, but you're not seeing the forest for the trees. Like the ten thousand years of the Old Republic or the period after Vision of the Future but before the Vong came along. Working long-term systems have existed, and your point is without evidence.
I dunno seems to me KOTOR, KOTOR II, the new BioWare MMO, about half a dozen comics seem to predominantly feature the Sith nearly punching out the Old Republic and/or driving the Jedi to the brink of extinction. Plus what did they decide to shoe horn in right after the Vong? Yet another Sith take over when Jacen falls to the Dark Side (seriously how much **** do they have to throw at the Skywalker/Solo clan? Leave those poor people alone they've done their bit). Plus if I'm not mistaken the future setting comics with Luke's descendant again feature yet another Sith take over.
Seems SW history is rife with the Jedi being caught with their thumb up their ass by the Sith then eventually being able to push them back because Sith are evil jack asses who can't hold onto power.
Now granted its over the span of thousands of years, but still its the same basic thing over and over.
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Plus if I'm not mistaken the future setting comics with Luke's descendant again feature yet another Sith take over.
Seems SW history is rife with the Jedi being caught with their thumb up their ass by the Sith then eventually being able to push them back because Sith are evil jack asses who can't hold onto power.
Only real difference is that the Jedi aren't really caught with their thumb up their ass so much as their temple is leveled by superior firepower, etc.
It's actually a fun read, even if it isn't particularly literary gold.
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I do believe the whole point of Star Wars is Jedi vs Sith, Good vs Bad, Light vs Dark.
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I do believe the whole point of Star Wars is Jedi vs Sith, Good vs Bad, Light vs Dark.
This sums it up. :yes:
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Why the hell did half of this turn into a discussion about Star Wars.
I'm guessing it has something to do with gaming hell... :drevil:
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I liked Zahn when I was younger but I'm not sure I would be as into his work now (although I've spent time working with the man in person and he is incredibly friendly and fun). I don't think they're as good as Stover's stuff; for all their structural elegance they don't always challenge. I did, however, admire his commitment to spackling away the stupid stuff in both the movies and EU.
I actually just reread the Zahn and Stackpole books while writing the scripts for FotG's minicampaigns. Found them to be fun adventure stories and well paced, but yeah, they didn't knock me out or anything. That's really cool that you've worked with Zahn though!
I tend to think SW is at its best when it sticks close to its mythic roots and paints in big, iconic strokes. Its power and depth of feeling come from our associations with the story's primal underpinnings, not whether or not this and such is the best way to think about the made-up details of how its universe works. If you want nuanced examinations of morality or how an intergalactic society would function or whatever, read something by a Russian--when Star Wars ****in' rocks is when you're plunging through the trench desperately trying to "let go" and guide your "torpedoes" into the port while your dark father is running up from behind trying to murder you. That's gotta be the most brilliant scenario for a fantasy film climax that has ever made money. What's amazing is how the prequels could get so much wrong with what is arguably a more compelling basic premise.
Anyway, sorry to re-derail. I dunno about hell, but gaming heaven is Mario Kart 64 on a couch with three scantily clad college girls. Actually, that's probably normal heaven too.