Author Topic: PBR and DDS file formats.  (Read 2477 times)

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Offline Nyctaeus

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Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
Shure

I used some custom alphas here and I have no idea if they are contained in .spp. I will provide them too if necessary.
Also I tried to reproduce this issue with recent request for Scroll, and albedo maps were darker too. Both in PS and ingame. Manual adjusting was required.
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Offline Axem

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Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
In Metal/Rough, there's just 1 texture for color information (the base color/albedo), and the metalness map (the roughness map) determines in effect, how the lighting will behave. In Spec/Glossy there's two, one for diffuse lighting (stuff that isn't shiny) and one for specular lighting (stuff that is shiny). If you look at your -reflect map, you'll see how its very similar to your base color map.

Look at the image below and you can see how the maps differ between the two workflows. The base color map has the colors you expect, but the diffuse map has none of the shiny blue color info, and likewise, the specular map has none of the dull dirt color info.



So on our typically shiny spaceships, the diffuse map may seem darker, but both diffuse and specular would be working together to make it look right.

When you put the textures in game, do you find the ship is noticably darker? Do you have any side by side pictures from your older exports to using my presets?

EDIT: Actually no matter what you'll probably find it brighter because no matter what, diffuse is going to be different from your original exports. If you're comparing images from SP to FreeSpace, don't do it in the F3 lab since F3 lighting is apparently different than a normal mission.

(Note I'm not a graphics wizard, but I did read a web article or two)
« Last Edit: December 16, 2017, 10:00:14 am by Axem »

 

Offline Nyctaeus

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Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
I'm not a PBR master, but my results were indeed darker ingame. I recently converted object with gray, dusty areas and they are basicly black ingame. Both in F3 lab and in mission. Also no other presets produce that darkened albedo maps.

I will do some more testing next monday. I need to check this the issue on other models.
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Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
I've been using decal layers and I've noticed the opposite, things are much brighter in the F3 viewer than in Painter.  Probably something I'm doing wrong...
That's cool and ....disturbing at the same time o_o  - Vasudan Admiral

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Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
Ok another weird question.... Bump maps are -height right?  For some weird reason they're not showing up at all.
That's cool and ....disturbing at the same time o_o  - Vasudan Admiral

"Don't play games with me. You just killed someone I like, that is not a safe place to stand. I'm the Doctor. And you're in the biggest library in the universe. Look me up."

"Quick everyone out of the universe now!"

 

Offline DahBlount

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Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
The shaders dont currently support bumpmapping but it can be added if there is demand for it.
<Axem> yet still more insightful than #hard-light

<Axem> jad2.23 will just be cat videos

<DahBlount> So
<DahBlount> JAD2.2 is like that
<Axem> maybe
<Axem> it can be whatever you like!
<DahBlount> A Chocolate Sundae?
<Axem> sure

My models: GTF Gilgamesh - GTD Nuadha [Redesigning] - Ningirama [WIP] - GTG Zephyrus

 

Offline m!m

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Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
Bumpmapping is the same thing as normal mapping so the shaders definitely do support it. I think you need to use textures that end in -normal.

 

Offline Nyctaeus

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Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
I guess he messed bumpmapping with heightmapping. Yeah, height would be welcome. I requested it once, but I guess I am the only one who wants to use it.

As for presets, I made some testing with new model:

In-mission result is similar. A little brighter but still. Current presets basicly darkened all my grays. They are almost black now. White and other colors stays the same.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 12:54:08 pm by Nyctaeus »
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All of my stuff can be used ONLY in Freespace campaigns and missions.

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Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
Ah ok... so I wasn't doing something wrong.  I'll have to see if I can combine them in Designer/Painter.  Some of the other engines support having both of them.

Or at least strengthen the normals, they appear way too weak/light.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 01:42:50 pm by Scooby_Doo »
That's cool and ....disturbing at the same time o_o  - Vasudan Admiral

"Don't play games with me. You just killed someone I like, that is not a safe place to stand. I'm the Doctor. And you're in the biggest library in the universe. Look me up."

"Quick everyone out of the universe now!"

 

Offline Nyctaeus

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Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
Height and normal are often cooperating. Normal is responsible for proper reflection of light, while height is setting depth of reflections and details at all. Unity and [AFAIK] Unreal both have customizable "height depth" factor. Other advanced engines are likely to have them too. It's hard to strenghten already painted normals in SP, so you can use your height, stranghten it 2-3 times and generate new normalmap from it in PS.
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All of my stuff can be used ONLY in Freespace campaigns and missions.

Veteran modder and graphic designer of all kinds. 3D is my speciality. Feel free to PM me if you looking for a model or other GFX help.

 
Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
Height and normal are often cooperating. Normal is responsible for proper reflection of light, while height is setting depth of reflections and details at all. Unity and [AFAIK] Unreal both have customizable "height depth" factor. Other advanced engines are likely to have them too. It's hard to strenghten already painted normals in SP, so you can use your height, stranghten it 2-3 times and generate new normalmap from it in PS.
In Designer you can use the height to normal map converter, it has a an Intensity setting for strengthening the output. I'ts not great, but it does help.  And yes unreal let's you use both, hence my issue right now.
That's cool and ....disturbing at the same time o_o  - Vasudan Admiral

"Don't play games with me. You just killed someone I like, that is not a safe place to stand. I'm the Doctor. And you're in the biggest library in the universe. Look me up."

"Quick everyone out of the universe now!"

 
Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
Quick question, I've setup a quick little normal + bump map combiner in Designer.  Now which of the RGBA channels get swapped?  I've been ages since I've had to deal with that.
That's cool and ....disturbing at the same time o_o  - Vasudan Admiral

"Don't play games with me. You just killed someone I like, that is not a safe place to stand. I'm the Doctor. And you're in the biggest library in the universe. Look me up."

"Quick everyone out of the universe now!"

 

Offline DahBlount

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Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
Red goes to Alpha, Green stays the same, Red and Blue then get cleared.
<Axem> yet still more insightful than #hard-light

<Axem> jad2.23 will just be cat videos

<DahBlount> So
<DahBlount> JAD2.2 is like that
<Axem> maybe
<Axem> it can be whatever you like!
<DahBlount> A Chocolate Sundae?
<Axem> sure

My models: GTF Gilgamesh - GTD Nuadha [Redesigning] - Ningirama [WIP] - GTG Zephyrus

 
Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
Thanks, that's weird.. don't remember alpha being part of it.  Maybe WC Saga used different shaders.
 
That's cool and ....disturbing at the same time o_o  - Vasudan Admiral

"Don't play games with me. You just killed someone I like, that is not a safe place to stand. I'm the Doctor. And you're in the biggest library in the universe. Look me up."

"Quick everyone out of the universe now!"

 
Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
Actually I think I'm having similar issues that Nyctaeus had.  Materials like pure silver, titanium etc are showing up as shiny black.  Probably because the diffuse is set to black.   I think the lack of good environment maps is hurting it, plus while it might be correct, it certainly doesn't look it.

I'm going to try the metal to spec converter and see if I can get better results.
Edit: no go, same results. I must be doing something wrong.  I can't seem to get a silver-ish looking material that isn't a mirror.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 02:51:12 pm by Scooby_Doo »
That's cool and ....disturbing at the same time o_o  - Vasudan Admiral

"Don't play games with me. You just killed someone I like, that is not a safe place to stand. I'm the Doctor. And you're in the biggest library in the universe. Look me up."

"Quick everyone out of the universe now!"

 

Offline DahBlount

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Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
That's because metals have very little to no diffuse influence, they (mostly) just have specular information. You need to convert your metalness texture set to specular or it won't work with FSO. Also, the F3 lab is not well suited to examining ships at the moment as the pure black background and skybox associated with it are in no way like a mission in FSO. The_E is currently working on an upgrade that allows the F3 Lab to load mission environments that will hopefully get merged soon.

Also, you need to copy your Roughness texture to the alpha of the -reflect map and invert it.
<Axem> yet still more insightful than #hard-light

<Axem> jad2.23 will just be cat videos

<DahBlount> So
<DahBlount> JAD2.2 is like that
<Axem> maybe
<Axem> it can be whatever you like!
<DahBlount> A Chocolate Sundae?
<Axem> sure

My models: GTF Gilgamesh - GTD Nuadha [Redesigning] - Ningirama [WIP] - GTG Zephyrus

 
Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
Ya I was thinking the lack of environment was causing the problems.   Hence all you're seeing is the black background and not the actually silverish,grey tint that you normally see with metals.

Ahhh ha! There's a couple of environment maps (specifically studio_03) [a series of 4 small suns dots] that produces similar effects to the F3 viewer.

Double Edit: There is an environment entry in FRED, but when I try putting anything in there, it just crashes. Is this what needs to be set and how?
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 07:00:36 pm by Scooby_Doo »
That's cool and ....disturbing at the same time o_o  - Vasudan Admiral

"Don't play games with me. You just killed someone I like, that is not a safe place to stand. I'm the Doctor. And you're in the biggest library in the universe. Look me up."

"Quick everyone out of the universe now!"

 

Offline Nyctaeus

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Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
I was actually referring to Axem's Substance Painter presets. This is converting metal/rough to spec/gloss with excellent effect, but all color information of grays on basecolor/albedo is lost in conversion process [these are just black]. It is not F3 Lab issue as I made tests in both F3 Lab and in mission with custom background and lighting. Lack of environment is not problem here. Ingame result is just "shiny black"

Everything is fine if I combine -reflect [and other submaps] from Axem's presets with basecolor from standard SP exporter.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 10:57:28 pm by Nyctaeus »
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All of my stuff can be used ONLY in Freespace campaigns and missions.

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Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
Awww ok.  So let me get this correct.  If I want a metallic silverish surface, diffuse must be black and without a proper environment map it'll appear shiny black ingame?  If that's case at least I know I'm not doing something wrong then.

BTW how would you do a dull non reflective metal, best example I can think of off hand would be a stop sign pole.  It's galvanized and has a slight blueish tone to it (probably from the sky).
That's cool and ....disturbing at the same time o_o  - Vasudan Admiral

"Don't play games with me. You just killed someone I like, that is not a safe place to stand. I'm the Doctor. And you're in the biggest library in the universe. Look me up."

"Quick everyone out of the universe now!"

 

Offline Nyctaeus

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Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
Awww ok.  So let me get this correct.  If I want a metallic silverish surface, diffuse must be black and without a proper environment map it'll appear shiny black ingame?  If that's case at least I know I'm not doing something wrong then.

BTW how would you do a dull non reflective metal, best example I can think of off hand would be a stop sign pole.  It's galvanized and has a slight blueish tone to it (probably from the sky).
Yes. You are right. After some long [and probably exhausting for them, due to my retardness xD] Discord talk with Axem and DahBlount, the issue is actually not lack of environment itself, but lack of enviromnent lightning. I admit I was wrong. Presets are fully okay.

Still we need to find to compensate it somehow until we get proper implementation of enviro lightning.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 12:40:55 pm by Nyctaeus »
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All of my stuff can be used ONLY in Freespace campaigns and missions.

Veteran modder and graphic designer of all kinds. 3D is my speciality. Feel free to PM me if you looking for a model or other GFX help.