Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Vasudan Commander on January 24, 2007, 12:44:26 am
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Well, what do -you- think happened after capella ? Just want peoples opinions. I know most people make a campaign or mod on what they think happened, but not all of us have the time or skill to do that, so just post your opinion up.
Personally, i think that there are 3 perfectly good systems for those capellan refugees to settle in....Polaris, Regulus and Sirius. The NTF packed up and left with their entire fleet for Gamma Draconis, so the GTVA never had to invade those systems and go battle in them, thus, they're left unscarred (the state the planets are in is questionable though). So the refugees could settle there.
It would obviously take alot of time for the GTVA to rebuild their military, but i think that once they re-established contact with Sol, and given Sol and earth werent decimated by civil fighting (and we all know we're prone to killing eachother....) the terrans would've united and butchered the vasudans, in an attempt to established GTA dominance across the galaxy.
But if the shivans can appear suddenly in Ross 128, then surely they could appear suddenly in some other system eventually.....
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There was despair and horror and famine, until Derelict, after which Alpha 2 led the colonization of Tau Sigma through the judicious and fair use of duct tape.
People are terrified by rumors of gigantic Shivan warships with names like 'Gigas' and 'Gargant', but oddly, they just don't show up. And no one can quite seem to figure out what they look like, either.
And remember that oddly named Vasudan transport in 'Apocalypse'? The Ptah-Nu? That guy (yes, THAT GUY) is the next Vasudan Emperor. I swear. Seriously.
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But if the shivans can appear suddenly in Ross 128, then surely they could appear suddenly in some other system eventually.....
SOL
imagine the surprise terrans have when they reopen the Subspace node.... ;7
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...only to find the Earth, in a twist of cosmic irony, has been demolished to make way for a subspace bypass?
And now we know why the Shivans destroyed Capella, folks.
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These theories are too unrealistic :p See this one:
As you all know, D3r3k Sm4rt will lead the GTVA. But beyond what remains of Capella, the Shivans, led by Bosch, persuaded the Kilrathi to join them (offering them a huge load of Bosch Beer) in the crusade against the GTVA. In the meanwhile, the GTVA is in war against the Galactic Empire. In order to weaken the GTVA, Bosch sends a Kilrathi on a covert mission: disguise as Sm4rt's cat and then eat him. When the Kilrathi eats Sm4rt, the cat is poisoned and Sm4rt gets out still alive. In the meanwhile, Bosch launched his offensive, and Sm4rt is forced to sign a treat with Luke Skywalker, who is leading the Galactic Empire.
And now, the twist in the tale: the Kushan Mothership gets out of nowhere and attacks everybody. In this moment of extreme danger, Bosch manages to board the Battlecruiser 3000AD and find Sm4rt. In the fight that follows, we eventually discover that Bosch is Sm4rt's father. At the peak of the suspence, the Battlestar Galactica rams the Mothership, blowing it up. The explosion spreads fleas everywhere. The fleas get in the Kilrathi's fur, forcing them to retreat to take a bath and get rid of the fleas. Capitalizing on this moment, the GTVA sends wings of F-16s in an attack against the 5000 kms long Shivan capital ship. The attack succeeds, thus defeating definitively the Shivans. Bosch is captured.
During the celebrations, the Vasudan emperor George Bush beheads Bosch and his friends, putting their :headz: in a box that will be showed forever in the Battle of Endor memorial.
EDIT: small correction... I wrote "D3r3k Sm4rt sends a Kilrathi in a covert mission to kill Sm4rt" :nervous:
Obviously, it was Bosch who sent the Kilrathi on a covert mission...
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loool :lol:.
seriously though, it could be a massive subspace portal to the Shivan homeworld or a warning to the GTVA not to mess around with the Shivans, or even to completly cut the Shivans off frm the GTVA
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I think there are two possible ways:
- Shivans cut off themselves from GTVA to leave them alone for X years to let them grow and then they'll return and fight with them again
- Shivans destroyed Capella because they were very busy somewhere else (like drinking Bosch Beer :D ) and will return to GTVA with superior forces and destroy it (but not entirerly, there's high chance that some will hide and survive).
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Well, what do -you- think happened after capella?
SD Famine Crisis (15 hours-3 weeks)
The GTD Nereid's subspace drive melts down when activated, causing a 24 hour gap until she can be deployed to collapse the Vega node. During this time a number of Shivan ships escape into Vega. (How they survived the supernova is not clear.) Three destroyers are destroyed in a bomber attack at the Capella node; the SD Famine and three corvettes escape and are hunted down over the next three weeks. Go play Cleaning Crew; that'll tell you more.
The Rebuilding Initatives (4 weeks-7 years)
The GTVA launches a massive shipbuilding program with the dual purposes of stimulating the economy and rebuilding their fleet. Despite considerable upheavals, it works. Under the auspices of the Rebuilding Initatives several large research and development projects come into existence. The most important of these are GUNSLINGER, the anti-juggernaut project, and WARRIOR, a project to improve the GTVA's ability to invade a defended world based on lessons learned during the fighting with the NTF.
Vasudan Civil War (5 months-7 months)
Not telling. You'll have to play Police Action (mine, not TopAce's) when it's done.
Fragment Fri'la Invasion (2 years)
Still not telling. An as-yet unnamed multi-mini-campaign sequence involving Raa's Lizards will chronical this one.
Fragment Giz First Contact (2 and a half years)
More Lizards. But you don't shoot at them this time. You shoot at what's chasing them.
Operation Test Drive (3 and a half years)
The GTVA pokes the hornet's nest via the "Lucifer Node" in Luyten in an extended combat recon and probing attack. It is successful and several sizeable Shivan forces are defeated before the GTVA withdraws and shuts the door behind them.
Ancients War (5 years)
Back From the Grave is the title for this one; it's not done yet. You might guess, correctly, that it has to do with my sig. Beyond that I'm not telling.
Third Shivan War (15 years)
Stuff. And things. Look, I haven't worked this out yet, okay?
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Explosions.
Lots of Explosions.
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The Shivans will be back eventually. Not likely for them to show up in Earth space as I imagine all possible jump nodes, no matter how unstable, are likely to be charted if not traveled.
The big question revolves around the notion that either the Shivans will be back in some form or that the GTVA goes to seek them out either intentionally or unintentionally. Its really unclear what the Shivans wanted to do at Capella. Unlikely that what they did could be considered a weapon. If those 80 juggernauts wanted to break through GTVA lines into the adjacent systems then they could have quite easily done so. Obviously they weren't really that interested in the GTVA. They fought them sure... but the Shivans don't seem to employ tactics so much as just overwhelming brute strength in an almost instinctual manner.
So I figure whatever overall strategy they were employing...it was ultimately designed to keep their opposition at bay while they caused the Capella star to go supernova. Or the star when supernova when they did something else. More than half of the juggernauts jumped out after the star started to explode. Its possible that they formed some sort of super node that allowed them to jump a great distance. Or the resulting jump opened a node or a series of nodes that were inaccessible. Or it repaired subspace in some fashion.
Remember the briefings from FS1...the Shivans don't seem to stake claim on territory...just jump nodes. Their physiology is not designed for interaction with strong gravity. We can presume that they were created or borne of space and they seem to respect subspace above all else.
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Which is funny because they gathered very close to a star... a star with lots and lots of gravity! I wonder if they have anti-grav systems... any ship that was that close to a star would either be pulled in or crushed.
Anyways... the Shivans definately don't want a fight with the GTVA. It seems that theyre looking for something or another. I think we'd see them in the unmentionable sequel.
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To the contrary, they were quite a long way from the Capella sun. It looked tiny in the cutscenes, considering how large stars are.
Definitely a good way up the gravity well, Bob-san. Not nearly close enough to be drawn in.
And of course they have anti-gravity systems. We call them "main engines."
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Whatever the case...subspace is the key. Its a pattern...Shivans, their attachment to subspace, the star going nova, subspace and gravity wells and their interaction.
The Great War seemed to be something different than the second time around. The Great War was all about the Shivans targeting and destroying the Terrans and Vasudans. And then they ignored them the second time. Its possible that the Sathanas fleet had a different agenda than the Lucifer lead one. Not to imply rival factions...just different overall goals.
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Whatever the case...subspace is the key. Its a pattern...Shivans, their attachment to subspace, the star going nova, subspace and gravity wells and their interaction.
The Great War seemed to be something different than the second time around. The Great War was all about the Shivans targeting and destroying the Terrans and Vasudans. And then they ignored them the second time. Its possible that the Sathanas fleet had a different agenda than the Lucifer lead one. Not to imply rival factions...just different overall goals.
Just because you have a greater goal doesn't mean you can't be genocidal :)
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Whatever the case...subspace is the key. Its a pattern...Shivans, their attachment to subspace, the star going nova, subspace and gravity wells and their interaction.
The Great War seemed to be something different than the second time around. The Great War was all about the Shivans targeting and destroying the Terrans and Vasudans. And then they ignored them the second time. Its possible that the Sathanas fleet had a different agenda than the Lucifer lead one. Not to imply rival factions...just different overall goals.
Just because you have a greater goal doesn't mean you can't be genocidal :)
True that...but the Shivans have so much power in their hands that genocide could be construed as an accident like slipping on some grass or sneezing.
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I never got the ending. In FS1 it was
OMG THE SHIVANS JUST CAME OUT OF NO WHERE AND KILLED EVERYONE
In FS2 it was:
LOL WE CLOSED THE PORTAL OMG THEY CAN'T GET OUT LOLOLOL LMAO ROFL.
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Well, they did get out when the GTVA closed the portal, if by that you mean the Knossos.
And no, they couldn't get out of Capella with the nodes sealed, but even GTVA Command isn't stupid enough to think that means they won't return. The Shivans can make jumps where they really have no right to.
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Well there's one more possibility that Shivans will never return and they've just gone somewhere and we won't see them anymore. However FreeSpace universe is too beautiful to just let them shade off and we'll simply forget about them. Even if they'll disappear, FS3 will surely reveal secrets of who are they and what happened to them, even if not from them personally then from ancient ruins or something like that. Anyway I doubt anything serious would happen in next 15 years after Capella (rebelion, another Shivan invasion or anything like that). Still I think there's 66% probability that Shivans will return, but what are they motives we can only guess.
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Well, they did get out when the GTVA closed the portal, if by that you mean the Knossos.
And no, they couldn't get out of Capella with the nodes sealed, but even GTVA Command isn't stupid enough to think that means they won't return. The Shivans can make jumps where they really have no right to.
No, I mean in FS1, they can just make jumps from unstable or non-existent jump nodes, but then in FS2 they decide to just close the jump nodes.
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Well after Alpha1 crashed they barbeque in capella they could of gone to Earth and started a barbeque there. Who knows maibe they used humans as machstick's or some sort of meat balls to be deep fried along with thery steakes or sauseges....damn spelling!
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Well there's one more possibility that Shivans will never return and they've just gone somewhere and we won't see them anymore. However FreeSpace universe is too beautiful to just let them shade off and we'll simply forget about them. Even if they'll disappear, FS3 will surely reveal secrets of who are they and what happened to them, even if not from them personally then from ancient ruins or something like that. Anyway I doubt anything serious would happen in next 15 years after Capella (rebelion, another Shivan invasion or anything like that). Still I think there's 66% probability that Shivans will return, but what are they motives we can only guess.
:snipe:
Anyways, the Shivans can use nearly nonexistant unstable nodes (Ross128 anyone?) So they may barge into GTVA space or Sol whenever they feel like it or manage to use an unstable node IMO. Perhaps they used a supernova-warp to enter Ross 128 in the first place.
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Perhaps they used a supernova-warp to enter Ross 128 in the first place.
Hmm... That's a great idea. :)
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KappaWing - whoops, I meant FS3 would. :p Anyway Shivans appeared not only in Ross 128, but also in Betelgeuse, Ikeya and Regulus. Also notice that Lucifer appeared first in Ross 128 and then moved to Ikeya.
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ehm about how close the sathanas were... iirc...
The engines would only push them toward the sun. Do they have anti-grav devices onboard the Sath? Even if they kept the ship from bring pulled in, what keeps the actual shivans from becoming smashed bugs on the front of the Sath? They must be able to tolerate extreme gravity AND stay strong in zero-gravity. If you put a man in space for a month, he'd barely be able to walk on Earth... the Shivans must have either adapted their exoskeleton or developed good anti-grav tech to keep them from smashing like bugs!!
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The engines would only push them toward the sun. Do they have anti-grav devices onboard the Sath? Even if they kept the ship from bring pulled in, what keeps the actual shivans from becoming smashed bugs on the front of the Sath? They must be able to tolerate extreme gravity AND stay strong in zero-gravity. If you put a man in space for a month, he'd barely be able to walk on Earth... the Shivans must have either adapted their exoskeleton or developed good anti-grav tech to keep them from smashing like bugs!!
Shivans, according to tech are completely developed in Zero-G.
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ehm about how close the sathanas were... iirc...
The engines would only push them toward the sun. Do they have anti-grav devices onboard the Sath? Even if they kept the ship from bring pulled in, what keeps the actual shivans from becoming smashed bugs on the front of the Sath? They must be able to tolerate extreme gravity AND stay strong in zero-gravity. If you put a man in space for a month, he'd barely be able to walk on Earth... the Shivans must have either adapted their exoskeleton or developed good anti-grav tech to keep them from smashing like bugs!!
But the reason a man is "barely able to walk on earth" after being in space for very long (currect record is 366 days by Vladimir Titov and Musa Manarov) is because of the lack of calcium fixation on their bones and muscle atrophication. Shivans don't have problems with the first because of their exoskeleton I believe, and the second is debatable but even current astronauts can prevent most of it with exercise.
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ehm about how close the sathanas were... iirc...
The engines would only push them toward the sun. Do they have anti-grav devices onboard the Sath? Even if they kept the ship from bring pulled in, what keeps the actual shivans from becoming smashed bugs on the front of the Sath? They must be able to tolerate extreme gravity AND stay strong in zero-gravity. If you put a man in space for a month, he'd barely be able to walk on Earth... the Shivans must have either adapted their exoskeleton or developed good anti-grav tech to keep them from smashing like bugs!!
The Saths were a huge distance away from the Capella sun. Look at how small that thing is in the cinematics...if they were even as close as Mercury is to Sol, Capella would fill the whole sky.
And you're misunderstanding the nature of gravity, besides. As long as they have engines, the Saths can maintain a stable orbit. The Shivans will experience no gravity at all.
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I was always under impression that the Sathani were orbiting Capella, and that they were being treated like asteroids in an asteroid belt.
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Well there's one more possibility that Shivans will never return and they've just gone somewhere and we won't see them anymore. However FreeSpace universe is too beautiful to just let them shade off and we'll simply forget about them. Even if they'll disappear, FS3 will surely reveal secrets of who are they and what happened to them, even if not from them personally then from ancient ruins or something like that. Anyway I doubt anything serious would happen in next 15 years after Capella (rebelion, another Shivan invasion or anything like that). Still I think there's 66% probability that Shivans will return, but what are they motives we can only guess.
:snipe:
Anyways, the Shivans can use nearly nonexistant unstable nodes (Ross128 anyone?) So they may barge into GTVA space or Sol whenever they feel like it or manage to use an unstable node IMO. Perhaps they used a supernova-warp to enter Ross 128 in the first place.
The only problem with that is that if they did "superjump" using Capella then in Ross128 they should have arrived all at once and with basically all of their ships but we never saw that happen. I would suspect that if the entire Shivan fleet jumped into Ross128 then someone would have noticed. We seem to see that Lt. Ash was jumped by more of a scouting party attached to the Lucifer.
My guess is that in that particular instance that there are unstable and uncharted jump nodes in most or all star systems in the FreeSpace universe and that the Shivans, being adept at subspace already, were using those nodes.
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Ah, good point IceFire. :nod:
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There was despair and horror and famine, until Derelict, after which Alpha 2 led the colonization of Tau Sigma through the judicious and fair use of duct tape.
People are terrified by rumors of gigantic Shivan warships with names like 'Gigas' and 'Gargant', but oddly, they just don't show up. And no one can quite seem to figure out what they look like, either.
And remember that oddly named Vasudan transport in 'Apocalypse'? The Ptah-Nu? That guy (yes, THAT GUY) is the next Vasudan Emperor. I swear. Seriously.
You're right. To prevent uprising, we should change official designations for Shivan doomsday ships to something like 'SJ Fluffykins'.
Oh, and, on my first playthrough...
The Shivans destroyed the Ptah-Nu!
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You're right. To prevent uprising, we should change official designations for Shivan doomsday ships to something like 'SJ Fluffykins'.
Now that is scary.
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I think that, based on the 'Hive theory' for shivans, there might be a 'queen' or parasite race that controls them. and, thinking along the lines of even human stuff, there would probobly be some odd ones out, and, thinking along the lines that the GTVA now has ETAK, and that not all shivans necessarily would want to annailate everything, well, .................. :pimp:
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Of course, if you were about to step on an ant, and the ant shouted 'oi, hold on a sec', you'd probably stop - at least for a little bit.
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Big reply. My thoughts and comments on various replys, opinions throughout this thread.
I think that, based on the 'Hive theory' for shivans, there might be a 'queen' or parasite race that controls them. and, thinking along the lines of even human stuff, there would probobly be some odd ones out, and, thinking along the lines that the GTVA now has ETAK, and that not all shivans necessarily would want to annailate everything, well, .................. :pimp:
ETAK proves Shivans can communicate, and much more, agree to a 'meet'\pickup. If they only heard telepathicaly from a queen shivan, communication would be impossible. I do not think a queen bee theory is plauasable. The brute force is more likely.
The engines would only push them toward the sun. Do they have anti-grav devices onboard the Sath? Even if they kept the ship from bring pulled in, what keeps the actual shivans from becoming smashed bugs on the front of the Sath? They must be able to tolerate extreme gravity AND stay strong in zero-gravity. If you put a man in space for a month, he'd barely be able to walk on Earth... the Shivans must have either adapted their exoskeleton or developed good anti-grav tech to keep them from smashing like bugs!!
Shivans, according to tech are completely developed in Zero-G.
Yeah, the shivans were born on some messed up planet, that messed up their minds and made them want to go crazy and kill everyone. (j\k)
KappaWing - whoops, I meant FS3 would. :p Anyway Shivans appeared not only in Ross 128, but also in Betelgeuse, Ikeya and Regulus. Also notice that Lucifer appeared first in Ross 128 and then moved to Ikeya.
They had a plan, a stratagy, we just need to figure it out. I bet :V: developed a, atleast, tenitive stragaty, or way of thinking that the shivans followed. I bet there is some sort of pattern, or 'commen sence' to their attacks.
Well there's one more possibility that Shivans will never return and they've just gone somewhere and we won't see them anymore. Still I think there's 66% probability that Shivans will return, but what are they motives we can only guess.
Shivans will be seen. Not right away, maby, but we will see them. But, the extent is unsure. I suspect they wont be at a full war agienst us again, atleast right away. They will be seen dealing with, whatever it is tehy are dealing with. We will learn more about the big 'problem' in the time before GTVA engages Shivans again.
Well, they did get out when the GTVA closed the portal, if by that you mean the Knossos.
And no, they couldn't get out of Capella with the nodes sealed, but even GTVA Command isn't stupid enough to think that means they won't return. The Shivans can make jumps where they really have no right to.
It is a shame tho. Think of what command had to decide. The fate of, what, 3 perfectly good planets? Just to make the choice would be devistating. Alot of people died, and were trapped in that system. The star destoryed all 3 planets, right?
True that...but the Shivans have so much power in their hands that genocide could be construed as an accident like slipping on some grass or sneezing.
True. Brute force.
Whatever the case...subspace is the key. Its a pattern...Shivans, their attachment to subspace, the star going nova, subspace and gravity wells and their interaction.
The Great War seemed to be something different than the second time around. The Great War was all about the Shivans targeting and destroying the Terrans and Vasudans. And then they ignored them the second time. Its possible that the Sathanas fleet had a different agenda than the Lucifer lead one. Not to imply rival factions...just different overall goals.
What's interesting, is the timimg. We had this hudge war, alot of losses. They sent in a single Sathanis to keep us occupied (those cruel bastards). Then, twards the end, they continue to ignore us and mass Sathi to the Capella node. Sathi sent near us, to capella to deal with some problem. But, notice this. In the SOC mission. Is it just me, or were Sathi seemingly escorted? The nodes, the Sathi with there green glowy abiltiy. Maby some sort of scientific vessle, or a ship geared specifilcy for the star purpose.
The shivan comm nodes, a homing beacon? There were 3 correct? Maby to Triangulate a landing point? But the Sathi had badass frontal beam cannons, also used for frontal assults. They have crap defences in their rear. Terran vessles have decent backside defences.
loool :lol:.
seriously though, it could be a massive subspace portal to the Shivan homeworld or a warning to the GTVA not to mess around with the Shivans, or even to completly cut the Shivans off frm the GTVA
Hell, do you really think shivans still Live on a planet? They probably left it a while back. Their mobalized. They dont mass in one place, they go in groups and spread out.
Why would they jump to their HW anyway? Our forces to go side bases, not straight home, after a battle or whatever. And even less likely they want to cut themselves off from us. Why would they want to? We don't bother them that much, they only send 1 sathi at us.
Meh almost done, il finish later, g2g to class.
Ephili
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Interesting theories. I have some too, but first a little food for thought:
I don't think Voilition/Interplay planned on a sequel to FreeSpace when they developed its storyline.
*ducks and covers*
I know Voilition has god-like status around here, but there are too many continuity errors between FS1 and FS2 that don't make logical sense. I get the feeling FS2 was written separately, and then they adapted the problematic elements as well as possible. FS2, by the way, is my preferred of the two storylines if only because its more detailed. Let's look at this in more detail.
1. As several people pointed out, the Shivans popped out of nowhere in FS1, but appeared through the Knossos in FS2. Now, we never find out where exactly they came from in Ross 128. We do get told the Shivans can use less stable jump nodes, but we are also told that they rely on jump nodes. So, we forget the idea of a non-node jump. Several possibilities for Ross 128 remain, then: A. The Shivans hopped in using an unstable and uncharted node which nobody bothers to mention in FS2; B. The Shivans were waiting, dormant, in Ross 128 for millenia; C. The Shivans were waiting dormant in subspace near/in Ross 128 for millenia. It really bothered me how nobody cleared up their arrival in Ross 128 - mostly that there aren't any theories floating around in FS2.
2. Behaviour: It's like we're dealing with a totally different enemy in each game. Their objectives are very different. So it begs the question: what changed? Again, we have no hints. I tend to think the simplistic apocalyptic themes of FS1 were inconvenient for the more in-depth story brought about in FS2, so it was easier to ignore them rather than actually deal with them. And they got away with it.
3. The Shivans themselves: OK, so in FS1 we can't figure out much about the Shivans because we can't capture them. But in FS2 we have captured Shivan ships, and some xenobiology, but we can't decide if the exoskeleton is artificial or part of the organism? Please. Granted I'm reading more into this, but modern biology of present day today could make that distinguishment.
OK, enough nitpicking Voilition.
My theory on the Shivans: They're a biological weapon construction of another race which uses them for expansion, exploration, and warfare. In fact, the idea of Shivans as controlled by another species (or even as a subset of the controlling species) is the only one I consider viable, given their bizarre actions and revision of goals. I think the Shivans in Ross 128 were waiting and dormant, having passed through the Ancients Knossos thousands of year beforehand. The Juggernauts are a new fleet, with entirely different objectives. And I'm planning on exploring this further if I ever finish writing my own campaign :)
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Maybe a few surviving Ancients have found out a way to control the Shivans?
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KW that is really scary you know that??
That would sugest a whole conspiracy of the surviving ancients to wipe out the new races or what is left of them, asuming there are any other ones left except for the vasudans and terrans, in order to restorew theyr long lost empire!
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Exactly, the "Almost Destroyed" become the "Destroyers". The Ancients could do this too, even with very small remaining numbers. Lets say the Ancients found a way to break into the Shivan hive mind and found out how to alter their thoughts. They could have the Shivans destroy each other, but why destroy the Shivans when you can use them to kill others?
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Come on, KappaWing, you're not in Zelda.
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I'm not familliar with the storyline of Zelda.
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I'm fairly sure he was referring more to your text styling than your post content. :p
As for Charismatic's point about the tough decision to destroy Capella, it's been some time since I've played through the main campaign, but as far as I recall, just about all of the residents of Capella did manage to make it out of the system before the supernova. There are either two or three different periods over the course of the campaign during which evacuation is taking place (I believe they're after the initial Knossos discovery, after the Sathanas appears, and after the final Sathanas incursion); even with the halts, there was a significant amount of time there available for evacuation. At least one of the command briefings mentioned that Command was committed to getting each and every civilian out of the system. Indeed, the convoys that you protect during the final mission are referred to as the last to leave Capella; since the GTVA had no way of knowing that the supernova was about to occur, there was no reason for them to cease evacuations right then unless everyone was already out. Certainly, the creators of Derelict believed that there were a solid 250 million refugees left after the destruction of Capella, and I'm fairly sure that they would have used canon sources to make this declaration. So, while the destruction of an inhabited system was indeed a great loss, I do think that it occurred with minimal loss of life on the civilian side of things.
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I'm not familliar with the storyline of Zelda.
*bangs head on desk*
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I use these colors to parody the way FS2 briefings color nouns to show their IFF status. ;)
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I use these colors to parody the way FS2 briefings color nouns to show their IFF status. ;)
Well I don't use those colours because I don't want to look like a complete tosser, but to each his own I guess.
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To each his own indeed :pimp::yes:
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Interesting theories. I have some too, but first a little food for thought:
I don't think Voilition/Interplay planned on a sequel to FreeSpace when they developed its storyline.
*ducks and covers*
I know Voilition has god-like status around here, but there are too many continuity errors between FS1 and FS2 that don't make logical sense. I get the feeling FS2 was written separately, and then they adapted the problematic elements as well as possible. FS2, by the way, is my preferred of the two storylines if only because its more detailed. Let's look at this in more detail.
1. As several people pointed out, the Shivans popped out of nowhere in FS1, but appeared through the Knossos in FS2. Now, we never find out where exactly they came from in Ross 128. We do get told the Shivans can use less stable jump nodes, but we are also told that they rely on jump nodes. So, we forget the idea of a non-node jump. Several possibilities for Ross 128 remain, then: A. The Shivans hopped in using an unstable and uncharted node which nobody bothers to mention in FS2; B. The Shivans were waiting, dormant, in Ross 128 for millenia; C. The Shivans were waiting dormant in subspace near/in Ross 128 for millenia. It really bothered me how nobody cleared up their arrival in Ross 128 - mostly that there aren't any theories floating around in FS2.
2. Behaviour: It's like we're dealing with a totally different enemy in each game. Their objectives are very different. So it begs the question: what changed? Again, we have no hints. I tend to think the simplistic apocalyptic themes of FS1 were inconvenient for the more in-depth story brought about in FS2, so it was easier to ignore them rather than actually deal with them. And they got away with it.
3. The Shivans themselves: OK, so in FS1 we can't figure out much about the Shivans because we can't capture them. But in FS2 we have captured Shivan ships, and some xenobiology, but we can't decide if the exoskeleton is artificial or part of the organism? Please. Granted I'm reading more into this, but modern biology of present day today could make that distinguishment.
OK, enough nitpicking Voilition.
My theory on the Shivans: They're a biological weapon construction of another race which uses them for expansion, exploration, and warfare. In fact, the idea of Shivans as controlled by another species (or even as a subset of the controlling species) is the only one I consider viable, given their bizarre actions and revision of goals. I think the Shivans in Ross 128 were waiting and dormant, having passed through the Ancients Knossos thousands of year beforehand. The Juggernauts are a new fleet, with entirely different objectives. And I'm planning on exploring this further if I ever finish writing my own campaign :)
All fair to say. No need to duck and cover. FS2 was definitely better and more thought out than the original as far as story was concerned. I think the Volition guys admit that. The strong focus was to create a hybrid of styles in the space sim/shooter genre and tie them together with a pretty good story. FS2 already had the right formula so onwards with the story.
There is one other possibility...one that I think I mentioned earlier. They could be controlled but that makes them less of a force of nature that I see them as. Such as in the classic archetypal enemies I see the Shivans as "man against nature". Anyways the other possibility is that we encountered two totally separate groups of Shivans...they do seem nomadic and its possible that different groups have similar technology and ultimately have the same final agenda but are set out with different tasks.
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I think that most of the FS2 storyline was better than its predecessor, once the game neared its end it became less and less coherent, and while FS1 wrapped the story up neatly with a concrete ending, FS2 seemed a case of the writers having started FREDing the game without any clue how to end it. As a result, more and more of the events became somewhat disconnected without a clear direction, and thus the ending made little to no sense, a Deus Ex Machina almost, where the event which ends the game came in without any foreshadowing, or idea of why it was there at all.
FS1 got better as it went along, you were drawn into it. FS2 started out great, you were interested in the events, but as you neared the end every mission was just more confusing, asking more questions without answering any (And don't say that this was planned to give material for FS3 to solve, considering we all know by now that nothing for FS3 was even written at the time)
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I'm fairly sure he was referring more to your text styling than your post content. :p
As for Charismatic's point about the tough decision to destroy Capella, it's been some time since I've played through the main campaign, but as far as I recall, just about all of the residents of Capella did manage to make it out of the system before the supernova. There are either two or three different periods over the course of the campaign during which evacuation is taking place (I believe they're after the initial Knossos discovery, after the Sathanas appears, and after the final Sathanas incursion); even with the halts, there was a significant amount of time there available for evacuation. At least one of the command briefings mentioned that Command was committed to getting each and every civilian out of the system. Indeed, the convoys that you protect during the final mission are referred to as the last to leave Capella; since the GTVA had no way of knowing that the supernova was about to occur, there was no reason for them to cease evacuations right then unless everyone was already out. Certainly, the creators of Derelict believed that there were a solid 250 million refugees left after the destruction of Capella, and I'm fairly sure that they would have used canon sources to make this declaration. So, while the destruction of an inhabited system was indeed a great loss, I do think that it occurred with minimal loss of life on the civilian side of things.
I was always under the impression that -many- Capellans died in the second great war. Those were huge refugee convoys that were under attack in the final mission, thousands of people died in the last mission of the campaign alone.
Anyway, FS2's storyline does not seem to contradict FS1's at all in my opinion. The Shivans were just as destructive in both games. We need to keep in mind that nothing at all is known about their motiviations. In FS1 they invaded Terran and Vasudan space, killed rather indiscriminately, but were ultimately defeated/driven away. I think that FS2's invasion is the -real- invasion force, and always liked the slogan on the back of the FS2 box where it says that the Shivans are "wondering what happened to their expeditionary force in 2335". The GTVA obviously unwittingly accessed Shivan space (implied by FS2's ending to be the remnants of a previous star system destroyed by the Shivans) and unleashed a massive invasion. That's what I love about the Shivans, their mind boggling power and numbers. To them the Sathanas probably isn't even a juggernaught, they might just consider it a cruiser or something heh.
I think the main question is what exactly occurred in 2335 and 2366 from the "big picture". The invasion by the Lucifer fleet seems to have been more of a planned and coordinated assault. The Shivans struck more or less simultaneously against important targets in numerous star systems and were able to overrun GTA and PVN defenses fairly quickly. Whereas the 2366 invasion seems much more spontaneous. Like I said, I think the ending of FS2 safely implies that the nebula was the remains of another star system previously destroyed by the Shivans (the Ancients maybe). Is it possible that the NTF incursion provoked the Shivans into action? After all, there was a second portal nearby which seems to lead directly to Shivan occupied space. The initial battles inside the nebula strike me as more skirmishes. It wasn't until the Sathanas fleet moved into Gamma Draconis that the Shivans began aggressively advancing against the GTVA, and even then it was still a little bit more time before the main body of their fleet attacked the GTVA.
Personally, I don't think that the Shivans were "trying to find their way home" or anything like that. I like to think that the GTVA unexpectedly explored a little too close to comfort for the Shivans and that the second invasion was a retaliation. I'm not even entirely convinced the Shivans were aware that Gamma Draconis was so near GTVA space... despite what the Vasudans think, I don't think that they're omnipotent godlike destroyers or anything. Who knows, it might have surprised them when they detected the Terrans in the nebula and engaged the 3rd Fleet in Gamma Draconis. Regardless, it seems to me that once the Shivans knew how near they were to Terran space they sent in their main fleet and attacked Capella, which I believe was the most populated and important Terran system after the loss of Earth.
In addition, the GTVA has no idea whether or not closing the subspace nodes in Capella will stop the Shivans. They got their collective asses royally kicked in the battle of Capella and closing the jump nodes was a last ditch desperate effort to keep the invasion from spreading, because they didn't know what else to do. The GTVA -hopes- that action stops the Shivans, but I think even they know that's wishful thinking. Even the Ancients explicitly state that they surrendered systems and retreated in the face of the Shivans, they may very well have employed the same tactics when they did so. The destruction of the Ancients civilization probably took a few generations too. It's almost a certainty that the GTVA will be attacked by the Shivans again after Capella. Least that's what I think.
Anyway, bottom line I think the Shivans will attack them again and eventually, planet by planet and system by system, wipe out the GTVA in a few generations like they did the Ancients. That may seem morbid, but having seen the ending of Freespace 2 I just don't see any way the GTVA can hope to compete with the Shivans. :pimp:
So anyway, that's my theory. What do you all think?
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I agree with Javito in that the GTVA will fall to the Shivans.
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Theory. What if HOL was right? The green energy sahi weapon was intended to cleanse us of some subspace virus or infection that we did not know we had? What if its some cosmic pleague, that the Shivans went out of their way to free us of?
A big part of FS1 is the HOL and their mystics. What if we will soon , after capella, try to unravel more of the truth behind HOL? They knew something. They were a space race before Terrans, and had some connection to the ancients.
Il try to state my 'after capella' as short as possible.
Mass exodus from capella to nearby systems and maby a few undermanned or underdeveloped planets. A good way to develope them, put more poeple on the job. FS_ would be first, about repelling mercinaries. As well as, trying to destroy the remaining left behidn shivan forces. A few caps, and larger #'s of fighters and bombers. A rather high defection rate will occur. People and the military all start to doubt the GTVA's control and stablility. GTVA fights merchs for a while. GTVA fears anotehr quick shivan responce, a follow through attack after capella. Shivans dont come. GTVA tries to stabalize while remaining shivas are destroyed. Mercinary forces become a lesser and lesser problem, as people realize tehy need to band togeather to make it and reconstruct.
With a majior loss of materials and life- as well as ships, GTVA puts all focus on getting the node to SOL back and running. Within 5 years they get it open. I expect that Sol will have been building up mass arms and ships, as they Did have a superdestroyer on the way to take them out. They would welcome the return of GTVA.
Some problems would occur reuniting and merging the two forces. Not too bad tho. This could also happen, GTA could break off of GTVA, and Terrans could try to beat Vasudans, but i think with what they went through togeather, it might not happen.
GTVA explores nodes and knosossos un charted perviously. GTVA eventualy will run into shivans.
More later..
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I agree with Javito in that the GTVA will fall to the Shivans.
Impossible. That would mean the player would lose despite successfully completing everything. Also if nothing else the GTVA has proved itself a survivor by this point.
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I agree with Javito in that the GTVA will fall to the Shivans.
Impossible. That would mean the player would lose despite successfully completing everything. Also if nothing else the GTVA has proved itself a survivor by this point.
The GTVA has proved itself? My ass! In 80 or so years, when A1 dies, the GTVA will have nothing. You hear me? NOTHING! :p
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I agree with Javito in that the GTVA will fall to the Shivans.
Impossible. That would mean the player would lose despite successfully completing everything. Also if nothing else the GTVA has proved itself a survivor by this point.
It wouldn't be the first time. The GTVA loses in Freespace 2 afterall. I just don't see any concievable way for them to repel the Shivan fleet. The conquest would likely take a few lifetimes but I think the end result is inevitable. It's a grim series you know. A doomsday evacuation of Earth in the year 2500 in the face of a renewed and unstoppable Shivan offensive is not very far fetched. I mean seriously, 80 Sathanas "juggernaughts"? Like I mentioned earlier, for all we know the Sathanas is just a mainstream throw away Shivan warship and the ending of FS2 certainly makes them appear that way. Barring a miracle of some sort, I don't see any "after Capella" hypothesis that doesn't end with humanity shipping off a select portion of its population onto a large ship and sending them into space in the hopes of repopulating somewhere where the Shivans won't find them.
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I agree with Javito in that the GTVA will fall to the Shivans.
Impossible. That would mean the player would lose despite successfully completing everything. Also if nothing else the GTVA has proved itself a survivor by this point.
The GTVA has proved itself? My ass! In 80 or so years, when A1 dies, the GTVA will have nothing. You hear me? NOTHING! :p
You forget one thing. Tho Alpha 1 is not social on duty, once hes off duty he goes wild.
Im pritty sure by the time Alpha 1 dies, there will be his sons, Alpha 2, 3 and 4 who will Pwn the shivans back to where they came from! GTVA will be saved forever more. Shame on you, and you,
Javito1986 for your blasphemy!
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GTVA proven Survivors? Unlikely... the first time they got lucky, and I don't think the Shivans really were after them the second time. As someone said above, those 80 Sathani would have had much more military effect if they were used in direct battle instead of exploding Capella - so there HAS to be some other reason for them to do that; and I believe that that's what they really were after in FS2. :)
Whatever they tried in FS1 didn't really seem to bother their FS2-fleet... which I can see several reasons for:
1) Whatever is connected to Capella is far more important/pressing then the GTVA.
2) Those two fleets were seperate sub-nodes of the collective, and didn't take interest in each others business.
3) Whatever the Lucifer fleet wanted, it got abandoned.
4) Whatever the Lucifer fleet wanted, it actually got accomplished ;) .
Point 4 is the point I actually favour - FS1 seems to hint at Shivans disliking interspecies wars; and no matter if they didn't care or if it even was their intentional goal to provoke the formation of the GTVA, the T-V war does have ended by the time of FS2... so they don't need to take the same course of action again.
But WHAT they'll do in the future depends on many things - how the GTVA evolves, what happens with whatever-is-tied-to-the-Capellan-supernova, ...
And I'd believe the Shivans are being spread over a considerable part of the milky way, so in context of point 1) it would quite make sense that a) the two fleets have completely different priorities/tasks and/or b) the second fleet just thought "well, keep those annoying insects at bay for the time being, let's get that Capella matter done, and after we're finished with that, we still can come back to completely wipe them out."
About comparing story-quality... of course FS2 has better features and such, but story-wise I still greatly prefer FS1 - I really felt the GTA/PVN being encircled and pushed back at all fronts. There was something going on in a universe... while in FS2 everything seems to happen in the galactic equivalent of a village or so (except for the Mara-mission) .
And I REALLY don't believe all those retarded-collective theories - they're too comforing, too simple and are propably mostly born out of cold-war propaganda... The Shivans are aliens, damn it. And they are a lot more advanced then we are - so who knows how their collective might work? PLEASE use a bit more imagination on that...
If you want a not so ant-like sort of "hive", read the Armageddon-series by Peter F. Hamilton and pay attention to the Edenites and the Kiint. Or look at what the internet is/could become :P ;) . Communicating and coordinating via thoughts doesn't NEED to kill individual thoughts :rolleyes: .
Oh, sorry... [/rant] ;)
And there was another idea I recently had concerning the FS story-background, Capella and such: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,44469.msg908288.html#msg908288 (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,44469.msg908288.html#msg908288)
(sorry, too lazy to write it all again. And it's 3 a.m. now here, so... goodnight :) )
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]The GTVA has proved itself? My ass! In 80 or so years, when A1 dies, the GTVA will have nothing. You hear me? NOTHING! :p
It is not the man which matters, but the callsign. After all, Alpha 1 from FS1 is still stuck in Sol and Alpha 1 from Silent Threat may well be Aken Bosch (or even Robert Petrarch).
It wouldn't be the first time. The GTVA loses in Freespace 2 afterall.
This is an assertion of questionable truthfulness. The GTVA threw a Hail Mary, but it worked; it cost them, but it worked; it was nasty, but it worked. It worked. That's a win.
Maybe not a nice clear clean victory, but they won. They averted Armageddon for the GTVA even if not Capella.
Similarly, Mav, if you had listened to the FS1 end cutscene at all, you would know the message that it gave regarding Humanity and by extension their Vasudan opponents (who were similar enough to provoke a 17-year stalemate). "We learned how to adapt, how to survive, how to overcome."
FS has always been in the end about triumph against impossible odds. Rarely is such triumph without cost, but that does not make it failure.
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Good point ngtm1r.
In conclusion, the only way the GTVA can win is if they allow duplicate callsigns. Although everything would be unorganized, their fighters would all be invincible!
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I think there are a few Alpha 1s. One per squadron.
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Yeah but what happens if two sqadrons happen to be flying in the same sortie?
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But, if their goal was capella, why take so godam long to get there? They could have jumped there at any time.
Also, they have, what is it called, inter system jump, where they dont need nodes, jsut a planetary body\gravity to jump.
Their attacks origionate from the right side of the node chart, and capella is on the right. Anyone see what im getting at?
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Yeah but what happens if two sqadrons happen to be flying in the same sortie?
Check the "Look the treason..." mission, when the Skulls come in.
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Yeah but what happens if two sqadrons happen to be flying in the same sortie?
Check the "Look the treason..." mission, when the Skulls come in.
IIRC its "like the treason' then 'hate the traitor' i think.
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Love the treason.
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Good point ngtm1r.
In conclusion, the only way the GTVA can win is if they allow duplicate callsigns. Although everything would be unorganized, their fighters would all be invincible!
Command: "Alpha1, destroy the shivans fleet!"
Alpha One(s): (Thousands of voices respond in chourus) "Yes Sir!"
*We see thousands upon thousands of fighters and bombers flying with unmatched skill wiping the shivans from the Galaxy...FOREVER!*
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Well, if it was the shivans way of destroying some kind of plague we didn't know we had from subspace or something. I'd just say **** it, we can't prove it, lets just do what we do best while the shivans will be doing what the suck at compared to us, and that is exactly being the ****tzorz ;7
One thing noticable about fs1 and fs2 is the shivans moving from bigger thing to bigger thing. Glassing a planet isn't good enough, hell they don't even blow up ****ing planets, then they move onto blowing stars. What would they be able to move onto next?
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But, if their goal was capella, why take so godam long to get there? They could have jumped there at any time.
Also, they have, what is it called, inter system jump, where they dont need nodes, jsut a planetary body\gravity to jump.
Their attacks origionate from the right side of the node chart, and capella is on the right. Anyone see what im getting at?
Charismatic...man...when you press Alt-J. Thats an intra system jump. Everyone has that ability. Inter system jumps are done via the jump nodes. The Shivans have to use them just like everyone else.
Inter (between)
Intra (inside)
The inter system jumps require the stability of a node between star systems to work. The Intra system jumps are done within the gravity well of a star. Based on the information provided I can only guess that this type of subspace travel is limited to the confines of a solar system...probably right to the edge where there are planetoids and whatnot but not much further. Not out in the interstellar winds as I imagine there isn't enough of a well to use.
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Well, if it was the shivans way of destroying some kind of plague we didn't know we had from subspace or something. I'd just say **** it, we can't prove it, lets just do what we do best while the shivans will be doing what the suck at compared to us, and that is exactly being the ****tzorz ;7
One thing noticable about fs1 and fs2 is the shivans moving from bigger thing to bigger thing. Glassing a planet isn't good enough, hell they don't even blow up ****ing planets, then they move onto blowing stars. What would they be able to move onto next?
The next option is the whole galaxy but I doubt we'd go there because thats just too fantastical. Honestly...blowing up a star has been done before in sci-fi...but a galaxy is too much. I think the plague thing is sort of unfounded since its not mentioned anywhere. I prefer to think that there are clues in the FS1 and 2 story that can tell us hypothetically about what could happen next. Reasonably speaking.
DaveB did say something about ships so large they would affect the gameplay like a planetary surface. So I'm sure in the back of their minds at Volition that they wanted to up the ante in terms of size of a ship. But the bread and butter is always going to be on the destroyer sized and down and thats why I never really liked the MOD community always going for the biggest, longest, most powerful ship ever. I'm sure we all know why....a small powerhouse of a destroyer always made more sense from the GTVA perspective. The Shivans already had that with the Ravana.
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You could blow up the whole galaxy. Just ram enough neutron stars together and you'd get a burst that would spread through the whole galactic structure, cauterizing all life. The radiation wavefront would take forever to spread everywhere, though, and you'd need a lot of neutron stars to ensure the blast was large enough.
The Shivans could manage it, though. If you can blow up a star (they might've used the star-singer method proposed by Alastair Reynolds, the description given in the late Capella command briefings fits), they can certainly move a neutron star.
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Well, if it was the shivans way of destroying some kind of plague we didn't know we had from subspace or something. I'd just say **** it, we can't prove it, lets just do what we do best while the shivans will be doing what the suck at compared to us, and that is exactly being the ****tzorz ;7
One thing noticable about fs1 and fs2 is the shivans moving from bigger thing to bigger thing. Glassing a planet isn't good enough, hell they don't even blow up ****ing planets, then they move onto blowing stars. What would they be able to move onto next?
The next option is the whole galaxy but I doubt we'd go there because thats just too fantastical. Honestly...blowing up a star has been done before in sci-fi...but a galaxy is too much. I think the plague thing is sort of unfounded since its not mentioned anywhere. I prefer to think that there are clues in the FS1 and 2 story that can tell us hypothetically about what could happen next. Reasonably speaking.
DaveB did say something about ships so large they would affect the gameplay like a planetary surface. So I'm sure in the back of their minds at Volition that they wanted to up the ante in terms of size of a ship. But the bread and butter is always going to be on the destroyer sized and down and thats why I never really liked the MOD community always going for the biggest, longest, most powerful ship ever. I'm sure we all know why....a small powerhouse of a destroyer always made more sense from the GTVA perspective. The Shivans already had that with the Ravana.
I like Shivan ships being huge, but I don't like having Terran ships being so large. It gets ludicrous. Such as the Icanus.
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Well first of all the chances of the shivans actualy knowing that Sol actualy survived the Lucifer are near 0. They could of just imagined that since they ran into these "ants" who aprea to opose them ad in fact actualy beat them in several battles, that they were some sort of new speies powerfull enough to fight them. And with Bosch spreading confusion amongst them about what to actualy believe about the GTVA who knows maibe they said "hey look they are good children sure they make mistakes but they are good children and have shown they can play toghtether nice.....most of the time...!"
And then decided to make a show of force to make sure they do not have another war in this corner of the galaxi.
Or they could of been so freaked out about the Collie crushing...sort of...one of they juggs that they decided to actualy seal themselves from the GTVA.
Remember that up to the whole jugg fleet aprearing the GTVA was kinda beating back the shivans. Sure they lost a lot more then the shivans in terms of cap ships initialy but then again this could of shown the shivans that the GTVA is equaly stronger if not stronger then they were.
Maibe they believed themselfs the only species capable of building such juggs and when the GTVA stood up to they chalenge they figured the GTVA has some 80 + collies ling around on a defensive line.
But these are all speculations.
Another one would be that Bosch actualy managed to get them to leave the GTVA alone but the shivans decided to teach the GTVA a lesson in terms of theyr power and place in the galaxi.
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You're paralleling the Shivan manifesto there.
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Well first of all the chances of the shivans actualy knowing that Sol actualy survived the Lucifer are near 0. They could of just imagined that since they ran into these "ants" who aprea to opose them ad in fact actualy beat them in several battles, that they were some sort of new speies powerfull enough to fight them. And with Bosch spreading confusion amongst them about what to actualy believe about the GTVA who knows maibe they said "hey look they are good children sure they make mistakes but they are good children and have shown they can play toghtether nice.....most of the time...!"
And then decided to make a show of force to make sure they do not have another war in this corner of the galaxi.
Or they could of been so freaked out about the Collie crushing...sort of...one of they juggs that they decided to actualy seal themselves from the GTVA.
Remember that up to the whole jugg fleet aprearing the GTVA was kinda beating back the shivans. Sure they lost a lot more then the shivans in terms of cap ships initialy but then again this could of shown the shivans that the GTVA is equaly stronger if not stronger then they were.
Maibe they believed themselfs the only species capable of building such juggs and when the GTVA stood up to they chalenge they figured the GTVA has some 80 + collies ling around on a defensive line.
But these are all speculations.
Another one would be that Bosch actualy managed to get them to leave the GTVA alone but the shivans decided to teach the GTVA a lesson in terms of theyr power and place in the galaxi.
The Shivans aren't idiots; they've seen the level of GTVA tech, they know how long humanity and the Vasudans have been hanging around, and they can pretty easily guess that there aren't 80 Colossi or they would have been deployed well before the Knossos was destroyed, let alone Capella began being evacuated. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the Shivans used - sacrificed - that first Sathanas to scout Terran defenses, identify tactics against them, and determine the reaction to an incursion.
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The Shivans aren't idiots; they've seen the level of GTVA tech, they know how long humanity and the Vasudans have been hanging around, and they can pretty easily guess that there aren't 80 Colossi or they would have been deployed well before the Knossos was destroyed, let alone Capella began being evacuated. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the Shivans used - sacrificed - that first Sathanas to scout Terran defenses, identify tactics against them, and determine the reaction to an incursion.
Reaction being, "AHH WERE ALL GONA DIE!! SHOOT THE SHIVANS, FIGHT TO DEATH" and start kamakazing?
The shivans know our tech, and they have been all throughout our teritory, they know what we have and dont have.
For instance, we stold Shield tech form them, we didnt have it untill we ripped it from their ships. They massacured us at first. If we were not forced to create a shield, we would not have for a while yet.
The Collie showed we would stand up to them. Yet they knew they could take us. We are (GTVA, Terrans\Vasudans respectivly) probably the first to make a stand. The Ancients didnt even get this far, yet they were WAY ahead of us.
It is amazing to know the Ancients ruled so many galixies, yet we found close to no tech from them. I bet FS_ will also be finding some Ancient tech or info.
Aldo, Did not the shivans already know our tactics? We havent changed. Only different thing is the 'close the door' poloicy. See a shivan, blow up the node.
Well first of all the chances of the shivans actualy knowing that Sol actualy survived the Lucifer are near 0. They could of just imagined that since they ran into these "ants" who aprea to opose them ad in fact actualy beat them in several battles, that they were some sort of new speies powerfull enough to fight them. And with Bosch spreading confusion amongst them about what to actualy believe about the GTVA who knows maibe they said "hey look they are good children sure they make mistakes but they are good children and have shown they can play toghtether nice.....most of the time...!"
Two main points.
First, the Shivans knew they did not take down our HW. If we assume the Lucy took out all of the ancients worlds, the Shivan Command would assume it would take out all our worlds. We were alive in FS2. They knew the Lucy failed to destroy us. --maby it was a test? and thats why they ignored us in FS2--
If they thoght the lucy suceeded its mission to destory sol, it would have continued to kill all our planets, we could not even damange that ship! But we found out how, killed it off, and lived to piss off the shivans again.
Capella had something to do with Bosch....not having enough beer on hand.
EDIT: Hmm forgot main point two. It might ahve been the bosh thing. He did or said something.. they could have jsut as easily jumped into GTVA space to finish us off, but they seemingly left somewhere else.
FS_ or FS4, Bosch will return with info.
Charismatic...man...when you press Alt-J. Thats an intra system jump. Everyone has that ability. Inter system jumps are done via the jump nodes. The Shivans have to use them just like everyone else.
*Snip*
I did say i probably got the term wrong. My point was i think i heard a while back that Shivans could jump without nodes, but using planetary bodies. Something we cannot even do.
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Good point ngtm1r.
In conclusion, the only way the GTVA can win is if they allow duplicate callsigns. Although everything would be unorganized, their fighters would all be invincible!
Command: "Alpha1, destroy the shivans fleet!"
Alpha One(s): (Thousands of voices respond in chourus) "Yes Sir!"
*We see thousands upon thousands of fighters and bombers flying with unmatched skill wiping the shivans from the Galaxy...FOREVER!*
This was probably the way Derek Smart planned to end it. :)
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I'd just like to point out that we actually -don't- know how well the Ancients held up against the Shivans and it's actually rather baseless to say the GTVA is the first to make a stand. I doubt that quite a bit. I'm sure the Ancients didn't take it lying down, they probably resisted just as ferociously as the GTVA and there's no way of knowing how long it took to wipe them out. Given the sheer size of their empire though I would estimate at least three generations.
Anyway, yes the GTVA did successfully force the Shivans to retreat in '35. Or was the armada destroyed? Meh, either way the Shivans were for all intents and purposes defeated in FS1. I still maintain that the GTVA was -soundly- defeated by the main Shivan fleet in FS2 however. Just because their plan to detonate the jump nodes with meson warheads worked doesn't mean they won. The battle of Capella was a -decisive- Shivan victory and Capella was a major Terran political, social, and economic center. The GTVA's only success was in preventing the Shivan fleet from advancing beyond Capella but that doesn't mean they won by any means. A "win" would have been repelling the Shivan fleet from Capella. In any case, it's beyond unlikely that destroying the jump nodes is anything more than a temporary solution and they know it.
Their only real chance is to fortify their systems, build up their militaries, restore contact with Earth... and even then, given the unimaginable size and disposition of the Shivan armada, of which we only saw a fraction of in the Capellan battle, I personally don't think their next encounter with the Shivans will end in any other way but -another- evacuation of yet -another- star system. And so on and so forth until they have nowhere else to run. That's how I presume the Ancients were conquered, little by little, and barring some cliche last minute disease which only infects Shivans that's the only real future I see for the GTVA.
But I still think that it would take a few hundred years for the Shivans to wipe them out completely so it's not -all- pessemistic. But you guys gotta admit, FS2's ending wasn't actually a jubilant one. This is a grim storyline :-P.
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Charismatic...man...when you press Alt-J. Thats an intra system jump. Everyone has that ability. Inter system jumps are done via the jump nodes. The Shivans have to use them just like everyone else.
*Snip*
I did say i probably got the term wrong. My point was i think i heard a while back that Shivans could jump without nodes, but using planetary bodies. Something we cannot even do.
Not in any official game fiction canon anywhere that I could ever find. Maybe a raving fan but I don't think that the inter-system jumps without a node is something that we even want to consider because I think its outside the realm of possibility that is set into the fiction of the game universe. Granted its a game and fiction but I hope you know what I mean.
The semi-paraphrased quote you have there is in relation to all intra system jumps which is common to the extreme.
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A lot of campaigns reference jumps within the same system, which "require the presence of a strong gravitational field." Maybe that is where that hypothesis came from.
Nodeless travel was one of the key plot elements of Sync.
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The Shivans aren't idiots; they've seen the level of GTVA tech, they know how long humanity and the Vasudans have been hanging around, and they can pretty easily guess that there aren't 80 Colossi or they would have been deployed well before the Knossos was destroyed, let alone Capella began being evacuated. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the Shivans used - sacrificed - that first Sathanas to scout Terran defenses, identify tactics against them, and determine the reaction to an incursion.
Shivans know squat! :D
They never studied or scanned anything of ours, not even scanning a ship.
The only thing they wish to learn is can they destroy the idiot trying to communicate with them in less than 0,5 seconds.
I'd say we are as much a mistery to them as they are to us.
Kidnaping Bosch was a presedan in their behaviour, so maby they did finally get interested into learning more.
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Shivans know squat! :D
They never studied or scanned anything of ours, not even scanning a ship.
The only thing they wish to learn is can they destroy the idiot trying to communicate with them in less than 0,5 seconds.
I'd say we are as much a mistery to them as they are to us.
Kidnaping Bosch was a presedan in their behaviour, so maby they did finally get interested into learning more.
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Just as a tree falling in the middle of a lifeless forest makes no sound, those who were taken by the shivans never escaped to tell the tale. So if they WERE making scans or learning about vasudans or terrans, they most likely captured entire wings that were never heard from again, and presumed KIA.
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The Shivans aren't idiots; they've seen the level of GTVA tech, they know how long humanity and the Vasudans have been hanging around, and they can pretty easily guess that there aren't 80 Colossi or they would have been deployed well before the Knossos was destroyed, let alone Capella began being evacuated. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the Shivans used - sacrificed - that first Sathanas to scout Terran defenses, identify tactics against them, and determine the reaction to an incursion.
Shivans know squat! :D
They never studied or scanned anything of ours, not even scanning a ship.
The only thing they wish to learn is can they destroy the idiot trying to communicate with them in less than 0,5 seconds.
I'd say we are as much a mistery to them as they are to us.
Kidnaping Bosch was a presedan in their behaviour, so maby they did finally get interested into learning more.
- How on earth do you know the Shivans haven't scanned or studied any GTVA ship? (not that they need to; you don't need to study a Brazilian rainforest tribe to know a tank should wipe them out.
- How do we know Bosch was a precedent?
- Why are you making stuff up? It's bad fom.... especially when you make omniscent statements about the Shivans.
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A lot of campaigns reference jumps within the same system, which "require the presence of a strong gravitational field." Maybe that is where that hypothesis came from.
Nodeless travel was one of the key plot elements of Sync.
From the FS2 tech room:
"In simple terms, subspace is an n-dimensional tunnel between one point in the universe and another. A vessel can travel through this tunnel in a matter of minutes, making a journey that might otherwise take decades or even centuries at light speed.
A jump drive causes a ship to vibrate in multiple dimensions until its modulations are in perfect synchronization with the subspace continuum. A vortex opens, creating an aperture from an infinitesimally small point in the cosmos, enabling the vessel to cross the subspace threshold.
Two types of jumps are possible.
First, an intrasystem jump can occur between two points in a star system. Most small, space-faring vessels are equipped with motivators capable of these short jumps. The presence of an intense gravitational field is required, prohibiting travel beyond the boundaries of a star system.
Second, ships can jump from system to system via nodes. Until the Great War, only larger ships could generate sufficient power to use jump nodes. The development of jump drives for fighters and bombers in 2335 enabled the Alliance to destroy the SD Lucifer in subspace. Producing these small jump drives is prohibitively expensive, so they are restricted to missions that require pilots to travel between systems. The Head-Up Display indicates the location of jump nodes with a green sphere.
The vast majority of subspace nodes are extremely unstable, forming and dissipating in nanoseconds. Other nodes have a longer lifespan, existing for centuries or millennia before collapsing. The jump nodes sanctioned by the GTVA for interstellar travel are expected to remain stable for many years."
As far as I'm concerned...thats the law on subspace :)
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The Lucifer or another important ship may have had the ability to temporarily stabilize jump nodes. Perhaps when that other important ship was destroyed, the Shivans stopped coming. Or maybe, there was a Knossos in (or leading to) Ross 128, which was somehow disabled by the GTI or something.
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Actualy there is a serious question mark weather the shivans had contact with the Lucifer fleet. I'm talking about the shivans from the lucifer fleet and the ones we encounter during the second great war.
this is mainly because even before capella and the capture of bosch the shivans did not do any concentrated effort towards breaking the front lines of the GTVA and engage the GTVA on its home yard so to speak.
But if that is strange what they did after bosch was captured and the subsequesnt apearance and destruction of the first juggernought is even more strange.
Mi best guess is that the GTVA will not have any significant if any contact at all with the shivans for a period of time. Or atleast untill the GTVA starts exploring other sistems . And by that time you can rest asured that the GTVA will have something up theyr sleaves with which to seal themselves from the shivans in a more efective way. Or at least some new weapon with which to counter the massive shivan numbers in terms of juggs. Maibe a more powerfull version of the Mjolnir planted in the dozens around key jumpnodes or something like that.
I see the GTVA exploting one of theyr major advantages which was shown during the second great war and that is the range of theyr beam cannons. Perhaps increase the range even further and even though they may not actualy incerase the amoun of damage they do in any huge way they will most definetly increase theyr refire rate.
Let us not forget that for a substantial period of time the Collie was able to do a significat amount of damage thanks to its long range beam cannons. Overloaded as they might of been they were still capable of engaging the shivans at double the distance of the shivan beam cannons.
Also i see the GTVA managing to do something else which they rely heavily on and that is the rapid deploiment of fighters and bommbers from theyr campships and/or bases. Perhaps design they large cap ships so that they can deploy up to 10 or 20 fighters at once.
Also it is very very hard to believe that the shivans managed to bypass all the GTVA controled space which surounds the Sol sistem and get into the Sol sistem. I believe that if any subspace corridor would of been of any use or would prove usefull to the shivans in getting into Sol the GTVA would of found out about it. I mean they must of searched and scanned every posible corner of space and eventualy monitored every sigle patch of space surounding Sol and I believe the same goes for the Sol sistem whic is cut off from the GTVA .
Without the threat of a new shivan invasion they must of concentrated they efforts towards subspace tech and taking out the lucifer faster which in term would of resulted in the subsequent discovery of beam cannon tech. Remember Sol gouverment has nothing else to do exept research into subspace and better bomsbs and beam cannons or weaponry with which to take out a threat similar to the Lucifer.
Of course this is based on the asumption that the GTA gouverment inside sol managed to evade any uprisings and any economical colapse. But even so they would of had a suficiently powerfull reason to keep everithing in order and that is the threat of them beeing caught off guard again by the shivans and risk anihalation.