[-Norbert-]

Non of the scenarios? Inclusing the "Darius will surprise us" one?

Never forget that there are literally no free communication channels from Earth to the rest of the GTVA. EVERYTHING coming through the Delta Serpentis Node is scrutinized and filtered to a degree that countries here on Earth can only dream of.

That's exactly what I was expecting and meant, that they know there is a war going on, but don't know why or how the GTVA fights it. Misformulated again...

Anyway the more the GTVA tries to change the truth, the worse they will be off, should their manipulations ever come to the light, that's what I was trying to say.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

Who knows? They could try painting the UEF and the whole of the Sol system as Neo-Terra...

[Snail]

Why would it be "Neo-Terra"? The idea of Neo-Terra was to create a new center for human civilization based on Polaris. Now that the path to Sol has been reestablished, why would there be a need to create a new Earth if the real Earth is right there?

[Androgeos Exeunt]

Well, think of it this way: the GTA is no more. It was replaced with a completely different government that completely changed the way Sol was run. Ergo, a "new Earth", Neo-Terra.

[Snail]

Well then it'd be an entity completely separate to Bosch's Neo-Terra except in name.

[Scotty]

Well then it'd be an entity completely separate to Bosch's Neo-Terra except in name.

Pfsh, as if something that glaringly obvious would get past a propaganda machine.

[The E]

Who knows? They could try painting the UEF and the whole of the Sol system as Neo-Terra...

They don't have to. All they need to do is present the negative sides of Ubuntu and not dwell on the positive side for too long. From the perspective of the average GTVA citizen, the Ubuntu elders present an oppressive, religiously motivated and unelected circle which uses mass brainwashing and eugenics to mold humanity into something they want. It's really, really easy to demonify the Elders, believe me.

[Snail]

Hmm? Eugenics? When did the Elders promote that?


And I still want the GTVA to win. Hard power > Spirit and Love any day.

[The E]

They don't. But some aspects of the whole thing might be interpreted as such, if seen from a certain POV.

[Insomniac34]

If your a fan of humanity, then your pulling for the GTVA to win. I'm pretty sure "hugs, butterflies, and rainbows" won't be nearly as effective against a Shivan destroyer as a Raynor and its battlegroup.

[General Battuta]

And I still want the GTVA to win. Hard power > Spirit and Love any day.

If your a fan of humanity, then your pulling for the GTVA to win. I'm pretty sure "hugs, butterflies, and rainbows" won't be nearly as effective against a Shivan destroyer as a Raynor and its battlegroup.

It's worth pointing out, though, that soft power generates hard power. A productive, prosperous society begets scientific and industrial advancement. Ubuntu is heavily invested in the free market, constant scientific and social progress, and a simulation-based forecasting system.

It's ironic to see people eating up the GTVA propaganda - Ubuntu clearly has very little to do with hugs, butterflies, and rainbows. And it's a little dispiriting to see that people are just as prone to reduce the world to black-and-white in a fictional setting as in real life.

There is a great deal of ambiguity here, just like in real life. But just like in real life, people are prone to follow their gut for silly, shallow reasons and then construct elaborate intellectual justifications for it.

[The E]

Those of you who know Iain M. Banks' Culture novels will know what I mean when I say Beware the nice ones.

[-Norbert-]

Luckily I'm not so set in my opinion. I just want the one to win the war, that will give us the better story for BP3  
That is, if there even is a winner. Maybe they will make peace. And even if the UEF somehow manage to throw the GTVA out of Sol, it would still not be a win, because there would at least still be a cold war if nothing else.

And the hugging hippies opinion is very, very clearly exposed for being a total fabrication by the simple fact that the UEF was able to hold out against the GTVA for two years. If they were absolute pacifists, they wouldn't have starships that powerfull. If the Karuna is anything to judge by, the UEF forces are more powerfull than what the GTVA had during the second shivan incursion (except the Collossus).

[SpardaSon21]

GB, we are eating up the GTVA propaganda because we have no UEF propaganda.  Also, what we know from the prose provides a good reason for the war.

1.  The GTVA needed the economic and industrial might of Sol in order to bolster their economy to prevent collapse.  If the economy of the GTVA collapses, then they can't muster the necessary firepower needed to stop the third Shivan invasion.  If that happens, then all the Terrans and Vasudans in the GTVA die, and Sol is left all alone for the Shivans to destroy whenever they feel like.

2.  The GTVA feared mass immigration to Sol from the outer colonies, which would leave them unmanned and unprotected when the inevitable third Shivan incursion would come.

3.  The Council of Elders are, to be blunt, naive, considering they first thought the GTVA was as enlightened as them, as well as their insistence on diplomatic talks with a clearly hostile GTVA even after the destruction of several UEF frigates and an assault on Neptune.

4.  The Ubuntu philosophy could easily be considered pacifistic, which is a death sentence in a galaxy where Terrans and Vasudans are surrounded on all sides by a genocidal alien race with limitless numbers and ships far more powerful than anything Terrans and Vasudans can build in comparable numbers.  (At least 80 Sathanes against a single Colossus that took 20 years and a fortune to build.)  In a situation like that, a strong and well-supported military is essential to survival, and it looks like the UEF military does not have much backing, at least at the start of the Sol-GTVA War.  I doubt the Terran-Vasudan military would receive much backing if Ubuntu took over the GTVA, leading to fatal weakness when the Shivans return.

GB, I would love it if you could provide me with reasons to consider backing the UEF in this war, because so far, from my reading of the prose, it seems like the GTVA needs to win this war as it is the only thing standing between Terrans and Vasudans and a painful death by Shivan beam fire.

[General Battuta]

Exactly, you think that. You think it's the only possible conclusion.

And yet there are other people who cannot find a single reason to support the GTVA.

As for seeing more of the Ubuntu side of things, there's a huge amount of writing in internal that we haven't published yet. Because the initial reaction to AoA was that the GTVA seemed like it had become Very Evil, the initial push was to supply the explanations for the GTVA's side of the war.

Now, of course, we've got people who've completely flipped and think the UEF is unsupportable.

To play devil's advocate:

1. So unilaterally conquering it is the best way to secure it? Since when was 'we need it' a justification for war? Maybe they should've just signed a trade agreement.

2. Who are they to impose their will on the people? What kind of government resorts to military force and deception to control its citizenry?

3. When the Shivans are out there, talking things out instead of wasting time and resources on fighting is the considerably more mature approach. You could consider it naivete, or you could see it as a group of very intelligent people desperately trying to achieve the best solution.

4. 'Humanity towards others' is a form of pacifism that does not preclude violence against xenocidal alien life forms. The massive UEF infrastructure could produce a military machine of incredible proportions if turned to that end.

You think the GTVA is doing what's necessary to defend against the Shivans. But from the other perspective, the GTVA has touched off a needless, fratricidal war that's jeopardizing mankind's survival at a critical time.

Put a little thought into it and you'll see why it's more complicated than you believe. There are no clear cut answers here.

People will, of course, pick GTVA or UEF to support; it's the nature of things. But it's important to the story and to us as developers that there be no clear-cut good guys or bad guys.

To that end, I'm happy to argue with anybody who thinks that one side has a clear moral advantage over the other. From one perspective, UEF and GTVA alike are making principled stands. From another, they're both hopelessly compromised - it's hard to stay clean when you're wrestling in the mud.

[High Max]

;-)

[The E]

I think the most likely course that this story will follow is an alliance towards the end of the Earth/GTVA battle, like the EA and GTVA did in the original version of Inferno. Then I can see that being the time that the Shivans show up again, and that is when WiH will end and we will have to wait for ch3 to see what happens.

"Inferno did it this way" has never been a good reason for anything, ever.

[High Max]

;-)

[General Battuta]

We are not discussing particulars of the WiH story, but we are committed to telling a good story that does not rely on hoary tropes.

Bringing in an outside force to resolve such an interesting, ambiguous conflict would cheapen it. I know that as a fan I wanted to see the UEF/GTVA war reach a conclusion on its own terms, not be brought to a premature end by the Shivans.

[High Max]

;-)