[Destiny]

I really doubt that. If they really wanted to, I have a feeling the Shivans could just steamroll the GTVA in a couple weeks. They might take massive losses but do they really give a toss?

I don't think they do, it occurred to me that the Shivans were just...taking their time, playing around until the first Sathanas was blown up.

[Luis Dias]

The first time, they had shields and we didn't, and they had a capship that was actually invulnerable to everything.

The second time, they unveiled WTFPWN beams and Juggernauts, and still only got as far as Capella.

Ok, let's check this out. They only "got as far as Capella" because apparently they were only interested in its star. Had they rallied for the Vega or Epsilon Pegasi node as far as they could, they would just steamroll every humanzod colony. GTVA was "lucky" they went for the star instead.

The "win" that Drogoth talks about is really about being ignored by the bully and escape certain doom. It's when a lion gets up to two meters in front of you, then ignores you and goes trashing your tent, you run to your car and flee and then call it a "win".

In the alternate universe, a pair of destroyers, a trio of corvettes, and a few cruisers and support ships ate a Juggernaut, a Lucifer, and eight or nine destroyers for breakfast.  Granted, the Lucifer got taken with help, but the Juggernaut and four destroyers went down hard and fast, without Vishnan help, and without friendly capship losses.  In a situation where resupply was difficult, repairs were done quickly, with minimal outside support, and there was no loss replacement.

You talk as if GTVA is filled with Rainors and all the updated warships. What will these fleets do when faced towards a fleet of 80 Sathanas? Do I even have to remind you the giganormous multikilometer ship we are presented in the end of AoA? What answer can you possibly give to that?

With full logistical support, loss replacement for any ambushes or a few stupid mistakes, and the might of the full Terran and Vasudan armadas, the Shivans are hardly likely to "om nom nom" anything but beams.

Ahhhh you'd do a terrific "Command Guy"

Yeah, the GTVA can't straight up WIN against the Shivans, mostly because we have no knowledge of their full strength, the location of any production facilities, or anything of the sort, they can sure as hell make the Shivans lose too.

Hmmm not.

[Scotty]

Even if the Shivans had gone for other systems, destroying the node stops any reinforcements, and mop up is simple enough, if not exactly easy.  Worth noting that this would have happened even if the Sathanases had gone for other systems anyway.  De-beaming a Sathanas is not impossible, or even especially difficult compared to some other things.  BP canon has a Sathanas being destroyed with no loses by less than half a battlegroup, when the Sathanas gets as good of a shot at them as it's ever realistically likely to get, coming in close enough to easily close to beam range.

Instead, it gets torn to ribbons by the Orestes's bomber wings, and goes down hard.  Even allowing for Shivan escorts this remains effective, and we've only ever seen Sathanases deployed solo.

There are at least four full battlegroups composed of the new Raynor and Titan class destroyers: the 14th, the 15th, and two currently unnamed battlegroups that (if you were in IRC that day) we have confirmed, for a total of four of each kind of new destroyer.  Supplemented with Mjolnirs and Meson bombs, I'm fairly convinced that a node could be held against damn near anything the Shivans can throw.

Terran Command isn't retarded, you know.  Try thinking strategically instead of as the pilot you play as.  Nearly everything he does/says makes sense on that level.

[Drogoth]

Even if the Shivans had gone for other systems, destroying the node stops any reinforcements, and mop up is simple enough, if not exactly easy.  Worth noting that this would have happened even if the Sathanases had gone for other systems anyway.  De-beaming a Sathanas is not impossible, or even especially difficult compared to some other things.  BP canon has a Sathanas being destroyed with no loses by less than half a battlegroup, when the Sathanas gets as good of a shot at them as it's ever realistically likely to get, coming in close enough to easily close to beam range.

Instead, it gets torn to ribbons by the Orestes's bomber wings, and goes down hard.  Even allowing for Shivan escorts this remains effective, and we've only ever seen Sathanases deployed solo.

There are at least four full battlegroups composed of the new Raynor and Titan class destroyers: the 14th, the 15th, and two currently unnamed battlegroups that (if you were in IRC that day) we have confirmed, for a total of four of each kind of new destroyer.  Supplemented with Mjolnirs and Meson bombs, I'm fairly convinced that a node could be held against damn near anything the Shivans can throw.

Terran Command isn't retarded, you know.  Try thinking strategically instead of as the pilot you play as.  Nearly everything he does/says makes sense on that level.

While i dont think we dont have a chance at survival, i also disagree that the shivans would be so easily put to rest.

We are forgetting that in the BPverse, the only time we've seen the shivans since the second incursion was in the alternate universe where we had never had beam weapons before. In the actual universe they have whitnessed capella era firepower, and could likely adapt. We're assuming that they will continue using capella era ships and weapons indefinitely. That is a bad assumption

[Luis Dias]

Even if the Shivans had gone for other systems, destroying the node stops any reinforcements, and mop up is simple enough, if not exactly easy.  Worth noting that this would have happened even if the Sathanases had gone for other systems anyway.

You can't destroy a node that you aren't in control of. From the moment that you are steamrolled out of the Pegasi node, you can't destroy it anymore. And your only chance is to get other nodes destroyed. You may still try to get Polaris or Regulus, but that would be tight. If however the Sathanas were to get Vega, they would be opened to both Deneb and Beta Aquilea, which in turn would open the Shivans to Vasuda, Sirius, Antares and Delta Serpentis. From the moment they get Vega, they are already dividing GTVA territory in two. And with Beta Aquilea, in three.

Your fleet would be separated from itself, divided and outnumbered. You could aspire for some conjunction of systems to be able to isolate themselves, but it would be a very tight operation, and needless to say, you'd lose a lot of systems and populations.

De-beaming a Sathanas is not impossible, or even especially difficult compared to some other things.  BP canon has a Sathanas being destroyed with no loses by less than half a battlegroup, when the Sathanas gets as good of a shot at them as it's ever realistically likely to get, coming in close enough to easily close to beam range.

That's one Sathanas against a battlegroup. Now try a whole Sathanas fleet packed with destroyers and cruisers, not trying to "catch" a runaway fleet but just interested in bombing planets. Now you get to defend said planets with a torn, divided and disorganized bunch of spare ships. Good luck with that.

There are at least four full battlegroups composed of the new Raynor and Titan class destroyers: the 14th, the 15th, and two currently unnamed battlegroups that (if you were in IRC that day) we have confirmed, for a total of four of each kind of new destroyer.  Supplemented with Mjolnirs and Meson bombs, I'm fairly convinced that a node could be held against damn near anything the Shivans can throw.

You still need time to mount up such defense. If you lose a node, you will be pressed to reorganize defenses on multiple nodes now. How will you be able to destroy these gargantuan fleets with 4 Raynors and a bunch of Mjolnirs? You may get the first 4 or 5 Sathanas.... only to be steamrolled by the flood not much longer than that.

Terran Command isn't retarded, you know.  Try thinking strategically instead of as the pilot you play as.  Nearly everything he does/says makes sense on that level.

Yeah thanks for that, I had never wondered about strategies before you know.

[Scotty]

Every time these arguments come up, whoever is arguing against the GTVA starts from a position of how everything possible goes wrong and assumes that as what will happen.  I admit I tend to stray a bit too far in the other direction, but still, the GTVA failing to block every single node as the Shivans move?  If the Shivans had shown an inclination to move on other systems, you can bet Command would have been hurrying quite a bit faster to shut those nodes.  Shivans get to Epsilon Pegasi, shut the next layer of nodes.  Information travels faster than ships ever can, and as a position is lost, the next steps up.  Maybe during the SSI they would have succeeded in getting through.  Maybe.  Certainly not now.

When the node shuts, the fleet can easily deal with any isolated Shivan remnants.

Re-read the FS1 briefings and such.  The Shivans hold no interest in planets, going instead for control of subspace nodes and transit points to planets' direct exclusion.  Ships coming through a node are easy prey for Mjolnirs and blockades.  Ships heading toward nodes are easy prey for Mjolnirs and blockades.  Ships staging between nodes are easy prey for bombers.  The NTF end-run through the series of blockades to Gamma Draconis shows just how deadly blockades are to masses capital ships in rapid transit.  Yes, the SJ Sathanas smashes a blockade to get to where it's going in Bearbaiting, but that blockade was ill informed of the juggernauts abilities.  Defending a node means that the GTVA picks exactly where and how a fight goes down, and can stack all the advantages against the Shivans.  A tactical reserve of the new corvettes allows Command to hunt down and destroy any ship that escapes before the blockade is destroyed, and when the blockade is lost, the transit to the node to assist in the defense or move to the next system in, if necessary.

And again it all comes down to time.  An effective blockade nets the GTVA precious minutes to bring node closers into position.  Minutes are all it takes, and the new ships and tactical doctrines of the GTVA net a lot of minutes in the form of savaging the front end of the Shivan column.  Those "torn, divided, and disorganized bunch of spare ships" we've already seen completely destroy a Sathanas and its entire escort (provided the escort existed.  I'm inclined to think it did), once again, with zero losses.

Don't be so quick to discount the Titan destroyers.  They may not have the straight up firepower of a Raynor, but they can damn well take care of themselves.  Witness the Temeraire against the four Shivan destroyers between Frankenstein's Monsters, Forced Entry, and Preserving the Balance, and how it nearly effortlessly wipes the floor with all of them.  Eight next generation destroyers, plus an untold number of new corvettes, which in conjunction have been shown to mop the floor with Sathanases.  You can't tell me those are ineffective against the Shivans, because they obviously are.

[LordPomposity]

Terran Command isn't retarded, you know.

"GTT Stern, you are under direct orders to dock with the Shivan cargo!"

Also, you seem to assume that the Shivans will continue screwing around once they feel seriously threatened. The main batteries on Titans and Raynors are much, much, more fragile than the ones on Sathanases.

[Destiny]

Scotty, they're merely lone destroyers, give or take with escorts that the Temeraire beat. Also in Forced Entry we (The bunch of us in the multi test ) were the ones who took down the Abel's beams and saved the Temeraire's ass.


I'd say more, but there's many more perspectives that I wanna read.

[QuakeIV]

It seems to boil down to this on the strategic scale:

If the GTVA can get a massive network of empty systems with sensor platforms, watching for the Shivans, they can deploy their destroyers and anemoi to fight a Russian style retreating attack to grind down the Shivans before they even reach the core systems.

At some point or another the GTVA will be forced to face the Shivans head on, however the GTVA have the logistical capability to operate ships very far away from home.  They therefore would be in a very good position to cause huge amounts of trouble for the Shivans.

Circumventing centralised offensives and cutting supply lines, doing huge damage to the rear.
Being able to pick and choose where and when the enemy ships are to be attacked.
You could destroy well over 80 sathanii if the situation is handled correctly.

The Shivans can feel free to adapt, they are either slowed down and forced to decentralize and deal with the harassing fleets, or they could try to centralize and starve to death from lack of supply lines.

History has demonstrated from Sun Tzu forward that its almost impossible to attack an enemy that chooses to fight like that.


EDIT: Pretty late for me to be thinking about war on the strategic scale, so this probably doesn't make sense in one way or another.

Assuming I'm wrong in I'll probably massively shift my stance upon analysis of a counter argument, this isn't a concrete statement of my position on matters.

[Scotty]

Scotty, they're merely lone destroyers, give or take with escorts that the Temeraire beat. Also in Forced Entry we (The bunch of us in the multi test ) were the ones who took down the Abel's beams and saved the Temeraire's ass.

Of course.

However, the Kyton was destroyed in a matter of seconds with no damage sustained, the Abel was destroyed with help of the integral fighter cover any destroyer has, and was already heavily damaged from the delaying action the Temeraire was at in the first place (where, given the duration of the action, we can expect the Abel to have NOT been the only Shivan capital ship).  The two from Preserving the Balance were with support from integral fighter cover, a rather undergunned bullseye, and a corvette.

I'm not convinced a Sathanas could stand up to even a properly supported Titan.  Or even a lone Titan with an experienced bomber unit.

[Mars]

If the Sath gets the jump on the Titan, easily

[Drogoth]

If the Sath gets the jump on the Titan, easily

In a straight up battle a sathanas could take a titan easy as well.

 I'm sure the GTVA could crunch up 80 plus sathanas easily provided they successfully ambushed all of them and the Shivans were to stupid to adapt. I mean yeah, when the deck is stacked in the GTVA's favor they can win but the first rule of every battle plan is that no battle plan survives first contact with the enemy. Things could get very bad very fast.

As such, I think the GTVA might had a fighting chance at beating back another Shivan invasion.. but it wouldn't be a cake walk. It wouldn't even be an even fight, it would be a grueling, monstrous task.

[Scotty]

If the Sath gets the jump on the Titan, easily

The expression is an equation, not an inequality.  The exact same thing happens to the Sathanas if it gets jumped.

As such, I think the GTVA might had a fighting chance at beating back another Shivan invasion.. but it wouldn't be a cake walk. It wouldn't even be an even fight, it would be a grueling, monstrous task.

For what it's worth (and what it looks like ), I agree with you.  When the Shivans adapt, and I have no doubt they will, the engagements will stop being "Pick Sath, flank, kill" and start being a tactical and strategic nightmare of constantly mobile ships on both sides, trying to pin down as many ships as they can.  Unless, of course, the Shivans just go "**** THIS we have reserves" and refuse to change their tactics.  Unlikely, but still possible.

[QuakeIV]

Could you guys provide an example of the Shivans "adapting anyways"?

Iv been reading that a lot but I cant think of an example myself.

My impression of their tactics in Freespace II amounts to sending in bigger and bigger warships until they start to win.

Freespace I is just desperately charging about with their super-destroyer in an attempt to destroy everything before the GTVA can wear them down and kill them.

[Mars]

The Shivans in bp-verse have their technology hobbled for some reason, but are capable of being much more powerful.

[Drogoth]

Could you guys provide an example of the Shivans "adapting anyways"?

Iv been reading that a lot but I cant think of an example myself.

My impression of their tactics in Freespace II amounts to sending in bigger and bigger warships until they start to win.

Freespace I is just desperately charging about with their super-destroyer in an attempt to destroy everything before the GTVA can wear them down and kill them.

They baited the GTA into caturing the Taranis and then tracked it to Tombaugh installation, subsequently destroying it.

Rigged Cargo containers to destroy the transports (Stern and Dobbs) that they new would probably pick up the cargo

They are capabale of strategies that are a little more under the table then just hitting things with a bigger wrench, but lets look at those situations you mentioned as well.

Both times, it arguably worked for them. The Lucifer could have and WOULD have completely destroyed us had we not lucked out and found the ancient records. The Sathanas fleet kicked the **** out of us and blew up a star, we barely bailed ourselves out of that one.

All I'm saying is that if the Shivans have been knocking down races like dominoes for thousands of years then I find it highly unlikely that they are unable to adapt. If ever their big ship strat starts to fail, I expect they'd develop new tactics

[The E]

Circumventing centralised offensives and cutting supply lines, doing huge damage to the rear.
Being able to pick and choose where and when the enemy ships are to be attacked.
You could destroy well over 80 sathanii if the situation is handled correctly.

The Shivans can feel free to adapt, they are either slowed down and forced to decentralize and deal with the harassing fleets, or they could try to centralize and starve to death from lack of supply lines.

That presupposes that the Shivans have rear areas that can be attacked. This might not be true.

[Scotty]

Presence of the SSG Rahu and gas mining operation suggests it is in fact the case, however.

[crizza]

Hm...how was it possible that the Tev send in a Meson bomb in "The Blade Itself" without a Triton? Or was there a Triton which set us up the bomb and I didn't notice it due to heavy fighting?
My point: Is the GTVA able to simply send Meson bombs through subspace like in Stargate?

[X3N0-Life-Form]

Well, I think they sent it through one of the intra system gate, which are used by ships not equipped with subspace drive, iirc