Author Topic: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?  (Read 46082 times)

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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
Well, they were ordered to fight against their own fellow people... that cognitive dissonance did create a rebellion at the Sol jump node.

True, but this was engineered by outside forces. I think the team has gone on record as stating that the Vishnians may have rigged the whole scenario to screw up the GTVA's plans. The GTVA has fought against its own people in living memory (NTF) and most of its officer corps is still familiar with doing so. They've built up the return, true, and that may hurt, but I still think you need a stronger rallying cry in the fleet to make this "spoiling for rebellion" possible.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
The fleet's loyalty is probably quite solid, at least among the officer corps - it is a professional organization with a powerful mandate.

But while the fleet can control interstellar and interplanetary transit and exert a powerful influence on rogue political elements, it's an ineffective tool for handling civil discontent - its instruments are too blunt. If the GTVA ever reaches the point where it has to exert force to control its citizenry, its policies have failed, and its leadership is well aware of that.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
I'm not really suggesting bombardment from orbit, so much as the GTVA being able to simply ride out any local rebellions by containing them and eventually incorporating them back into the fold when the economic dislocation from a lack of space travel hits. Too much, too fast, could probably overwhelm this defense of course.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
That policy might actually work quite well in the long run, but a world isolated and contained is a world that can't be put to use - in Civ terms, civil discontent is going to hamper productivity, and the GTVA needs its productivity.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
...and essentially went to war for more of it. A fair point, sir. I concede.
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
....and what can they do about it? Take the iraq war as an example. Despite the fact that the war was "illegal", so to speak, did nothing but place Bush into a position of power and win the elections in 2004. It took more 4 years for Obama to reach the office, and even then he wouldn't commit to abandon Iraq.

I'm not claiming that in the long run, the GTVA won't run into serious political backslash, but it appears that for now they have some time to crush the UEF, at least until the next political cycle.

And there's also the question of alternatives. What are the alternatives for the colonies? So the GTVA was unable to stop the shivan threat to commit a second holocaust. What kind of alternative would be better for them? A jesuistic "love your enemies" kindof ridiculous pacifism? I don't think so, given the sheer fear both humans and vasudans must assuredly have for the Shivans. The only alternative is a religious rebellion, similar to the Hammer of Light heresy, linking shivan actions to the "sins" of the GTVA (and given human nature this is a real problem).

More over, I even think that this fear and paranoia that the human populace almost probably has nurtured given the threat of the Shivans should have protected them from the ideologies of Ubuntu quite well. I can imagine these humans thinking "what sissies, what do they know about the dangerous universe? They are children, unaware of the Death Hand lurking above their heads, and dare make smug smilies at us as if they know it better". Still the canon information is that the GTVA still fears this ideological threat... (I wouldn't agree but hey it's what we have to work with).


There's also the issue that, in times of trouble, the populace tends to patriotize itself and support the leadership (one more reason for the GTVA go to war: not only destroy the Ubuntu ideology but gather popular support at home with the basic tribal instinct that humans share).

 

Offline Black Wolf

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Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
Eh... I'm unconvinced. I get what you're saying GB, but it just doesn't feel like a justification for rebellion to me, not in a democracy.

But it's BP's canon, they can do what they want with it. :nod:
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
Eh... I'm unconvinced. I get what you're saying GB, but it just doesn't feel like a justification for rebellion to me, not in a democracy.

Yet you have a historical example where just such a rebellion occurred in just such a democracy.

 

Offline crizza

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Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
Hm...this "the GTVA started the second war" doesn't work for me.
A shivan cruiser, out of nowhere, destroyed with another cruiser with minimal losses, the role of the Trinity most likely top secret...
They had to press their advantage.

 

Offline -Norbert-

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Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
Or they could have tried to blow up the portal immediately after they beat the first shivan troops back, instead of arrogantly believing they could defeat the Shivans.
Now from a realistic point of view, they probably couldn't do it back then, because they didn't have enough meson bombs, but a mob is usually not interrested in such small details, so the argument might still be used to cause unrest.

Furthermore one could argue that mankind brought the 2nd shivan incursion down upon themselfs, by creating the NTF and starting the civil war. Could the GTVA have prevented the NTF rebellion if they had paid more attention beforehand? Could they have ended the rebellion much quicker, but messed it up thanks to command being incompetent? Was command so interrested in ETAK that they let Bosch have his way for some time?

Now please don't start discussing the answers to those questions, I just brought them up to show that there is enough furtile ground for people to blame mankind and/or the GTVA for the Shivan incursion, wether it's true or not.

 
Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
I Miss  You! .. Old Galactic Terran Aliance!..., With you apollos and Orions!  =(


Going to the point

GTVA I think, as was the conflict only have to make a push over, I think FSU is going to pay if they are caught Mars, I do not see much future for the UEF forces for this little problem of the lack of numbers and the numerical disadvantage, one miraculously given a surgical strike at terran supply lines and force them to retreat, perhaps to Neptune, but the numerical superiority and lack of equipment that has the UEF that is quite battered,

only chuck norris can save, I guess I will have saved in cryogenics

I would like to end a ceasefire and an agreement of friendship, so that the 2 factions are not lost, that the technologies are well separated and together we can give the
shivans (as happened in the Great War)

or perhaps a Shivan invasion may come to save what remains of the UEF


Use the Google traductor
« Last Edit: June 06, 2011, 10:59:31 pm by ZeroCooL »

 

Offline SypheDMar

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Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
The UEF still has Fleet bombers. Steele's stunt in Earth's orbit was extremely risky if you ask me, unless he has no idea that such bombers exist (which I highly doubt).

 
Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
IIRC Vajras have yet to be cleared for operational use. While he may know of them, they were likely a non-issue in his attack plan.

 

Offline Mars

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Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
The UEF still has Fleet bombers. Steele's stunt in Earth's orbit was extremely risky if you ask me, unless he has no idea that such bombers exist (which I highly doubt).
He knew that he had another timely jump available. Remember, the Carthage is still an aging design, despite its experimental jump drive, we know that the Raynor is designed to out-maneuver known Shivan tactics.

 

Offline Deadly in a Shadow

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Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?

I Miss  You! .. Old Galactic Terran Aliance!..., With you apollos and Orions!  =(
The still GTA exists....from a different view. It exists as the General Terran Assembly (GTA) :D
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Offline Rodo

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Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
Don't worry, the Fedayeen will try.
el hombre vicio...

 
Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
It's pretty much a military dictature, with a few relents of democracy for caring about civilian matters.

You are literally making this up. Simply because the game deals with the military aspects and so that's all we see does not mean the GTVA is a military dictatorship.

You have utterly failed to appreciate the fact that the games do not provide an omniscient viewpoint.

That's not entirely true. Although it is by no means a dictatorship (as civilian contentment and public opinion is clearly important to the GTVA), the GTVA IS partly run by the military. Even if we look only at the FS and FS2 universe, we see that the military is considerably more involved in the day to day working of the GTVA than your average form of government, with the military making up a full third of the political system of the GTVA (alongside the Vasudan Imperium and the General Assembly). Aside from this, the military is often seen taking on the role of a police force as well, which means the military plays a much greater role in the GTVA than in any ordinary government.
If you wish to delve into the BP canon, when you read up on the profile of Steele, you'll even notice that he was educated in a 'Space War College' that expressly deals with military courses, such as Bachelors in 'Battlefield Psychology' and Masters in 'Strategic Studies', with treatises written on military matters such as warship design. This implies by far, a much greater degree of militarism than any nation we've ever seen on Earth, if there are recognized graduate and post graduate degrees in, essentially, how to wage war. Furthermore, it is said that the decision to invade Sol was made by the security council, which is the military branch of the GTVA. This is important as it means the military declared war all on it's own without the need to answer to some higher civilian power. So the security council has a very large degree of autonomy in how to operate on matters regarding security, and doesn't seem to have to directly answer to a civilian regulatory body (although it does seem to have to answer to public opinion to a limited degree, perhaps candidates for the security council are somehow elected by the public). It's probably not so much a case of the military running the GTVA as the rampant militarism present throughout it making it seem that way.

Which leads me to this.

The fact that it's taken the GTVA as long as it already has to make headway against a vastly inferior foe, on top of the flurry of defections from the 14th, is probably making them look pretty weak already. The Battle of Saturn was probably something of a propaganda victory, but even with the destruction of a rather infamous UEF unit, the Carthage is badly damaged and many of her escorts were destroyed. It feels like a defeat from the perspective of the player because we lose a lot of characters we've come to know and like, but seen from the other side the Imperieuse arrives to bail Lopez's ass out of the fire with about thirty seconds to spare, and not before several thousand GTVA officers and crew have died. In an asymmetric war-of-choice like this one, any military victory short of an overwhelming one can look bad.

Why does this always come up.....

The UEF is anything BUT a "vastly inferior foe". The UEF fleet is, in terms of firepower, roughly equivalent to 4 or 5 GTVA battlegroups. Prior to Steele's arrival and the battle of Artemis Station, the GTVA was fighting against an enemy that was always one step ahead due to the subspace sensor net enveloping Sol, thus negating one of the biggest factors in FS warfare. Yes, the UEF navy was hampered by Byrne's indecision and by not having as deep a personnel pool as the GTVA, but still, it is definitely not a foe to be underestimated.

Why is this the accepted consensus? For the love of me i cannot understand why a civilization which is both technologically and numerically disadvantaged as well as suffering from VASTLY inferior training, experience and war mentality is achieving such ridiculous kill ratios in all engagements that we see. The discrepancy in the combat prowess should so vast that aside from a considerable numerical superiority, or a substantial tactical advantage (something not likely to happen considering the superior training and experience of the GTVA commanders), the UEF should be horrifically losing all battles involving capships, but instead we see the exact opposite, such as 4 frigates and 2 cruisers taking on 4 corvettes, 4 cruisers and a destroyer with ZERO losses (delanda est). That particular mission made me want to tear my hair out and the part that made me happiest during the whole thing, was watching the Imperiuse and the escorting corvette rip through the attacking fleet, because it's the ONLY part in the whole damn mission that made any shred of sense (amusingly, the force you're deployed against at the start, is more than capable of tearing apart the Imperiuse and the escort corvette assuming they all start in range).
A frigate is roughly the same mass as a corvette (they're longer, but much slimmer), but has some of its space and personnel taken up by a fighter bay and maintenance facilities, so you'd assume it wouldn't perform as well in a direct combat role as a corvette. If you then factor in the inferior weapons and reactor tech of the UEF compared to the GTVA, you're left with the logical assumption that a UEF frigate should be decisively outgunned by a TEV corvette (which isn't true in the slightest, and we see Karunas packing an insane 29(!!!!) turrets). And yet, we don't see a single mission in which this happens like it actually should except at the very end of delanda est. In the mission before that, we see an Orion with full fighter complement run away from 2 Karunas approaching it in an optimal broadside position for the Orion, yet strangely the Orion jumped out? Even ignoring the fact that the weapons, armor and jump drive on the Carthage were said to be upgraded, the frigates were approaching from an angle that would have seen them in range of 2 BGreens and 2 TerSlash beams, which should quickly reduce both ships into flaming hulks. If we replaced those Karunas with Deimos corvettes, although the Orion would take substantial damage, the plan would be considered doomed to failure. So why are ships with less powerful weaponry seemingly performing better against a souped up version of a ship which would ordinarily kill a pair of Deimos. This puzzles me beyond all belief, as the game texts say one thing, which seems logical and believable, yet what we see in-game is the exact opposite and makes no sense whatsoever.

Tl;Dr: Peace loving hippies with inferior tech are somehow performing ridiculously well against a higher tech society, geared for war, with nearly a century of constant warfare to hone their skills, weapons and ship designs. Wtf

 
Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
Now that was interesting reading. Here are my thoughts about UEF-GTVA war:

-Regarding ship performance, which I admit is kinda puzzling at times:

The thing, I think, is that the UEF and GTVA have a very different approach to warfare. As it is stated on several occasions, the UEF favors high performance/cost hungry/low autonomy designs, which are only a jump away from shipyard, thus highly effective in a single system as long as it provides all the necessary infrastructure.

On the other hand, GTVA ships have supposedly been designed to operate in hostile environment systems away from dry docks, shipyard, whatever, and possibly can't afford the huge number of torpedoes UEF frigates launch in every fights for instance. Even with logistics ships, the BP-GTVA must still have this design philosophy. There is also the fact that the GTVA is used to fight shivans, with tend to use lots and lots of ships or its own rebelled forces, which obviously follow the same philosophy. I think it is said somewhere in the techroom that early GTVA defeats were due to the fact that they badly underestimated the edge these high-performance ships would give to the UEF.
One other thing is that during 18 months, the GTVA is fighting against the 3rd Fleet, which is not entirely composed by rookies since they have been fighting GEF forces on a regular basis, and is commanded by an ex-GTA Officer, which has seen some action during the great war.

-Regarding Delenda Est, here is how I see the mission

With its jump drives fried and other GTVA fleets in system pinned down as stated in the briefing, the Carthage is pretty much on its own. It first sends several waves of bombers with softens the frigates a little bit before they engage the first 2 corvettes. Why only 2 corvettes ? Because sending everyone would leave the Carthage vulnerable to flanking (with was one of the attack plans iirc). Why not just sit and wait until the frigates are in range ? OK, that one puzzled me at first, but sitting and waiting would mean that the destroyer will definitively be caught in the cross fire and take damage. And its was likely that the UEF would deploy an AWACS to render the Carthage's BGReen inopperative.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 03:35:56 am by X3N0-Life-Form »

 

Offline -Norbert-

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Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
Quote
For the love of me i cannot understand why a civilization which is both technologically and numerically disadvantaged as well as suffering from VASTLY inferior training, experience and war mentality is achieving such ridiculous kill ratios in all engagements that we see.
Whoever said the UEF has inferiour training for their crews? The whole GTVA armada is geared - and thus most likely also trained - to fight Shivans. Hordes of low performance fighters with the occasional dragon wing thrown in.
The UEF fighters are superiour to Shivan and GTVA fighters (or at least to the Capella era fighters, which seem to make up the majority of the invasion force's arsenal), which makes fighting them very different (and much riskier) than fighting Shivans. And considering they were fighting "technologically inferiour pacifists, without the stomach for a real war" I'm sure many GTVA veterans underestimated the UEF fighters corps. And in battle, underestimating the enemy is often the last mistake you make.

Quote
And yet, we don't see a single mission in which this happens like it actually should except at the very end of delanda est. In the mission before that, we see an Orion with full fighter complement run away from 2 Karunas approaching it in an optimal broadside position for the Orion, yet strangely the Orion jumped out? Even ignoring the fact that the weapons, armor and jump drive on the Carthage were said to be upgraded, the frigates were approaching from an angle that would have seen them in range of 2 BGreens and 2 TerSlash beams, which should quickly reduce both ships into flaming hulks.
Wether the Carthage would have been able to deal with the wargods right there and then doesn't matter. Lopez had orders from Steele to lure the wargods into his trap.
But let's ignore that for a moment, along with the presence of the AWACS that made sure the Carthages beams were jammed:

The beams wouldn't be sufficient to annihilate even one of the Karunas with one salvo and in all likelyhood that's all an Orion will ever get off. Because there were Uriels present, who just completely disarmed two dedicated anti-fighter ships (a Deimos and an Aeolus), so they'd chew through what little fighter defense the Carthage had in no time. Add to that the Apocalypse torpedoes and massdrivers and you got a very well armored and completely disarmed sitting duck. Maybe MAYBE the Carthage would have been able to take down one Karuna, but both? Unlikely in the extreme.

Quote
Furthermore, it is said that the decision to invade Sol was made by the security council, which is the military branch of the GTVA. This is important as it means the military declared war all on it's own without the need to answer to some higher civilian power.
Or it's just supposed to mean something along the lines of "The security council put the complete plan for the invasion before the civilian part of the government and started the operation after getting their approval".

 

Offline The E

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Re: Is there any way for the GTVA to win?
If you wish to delve into the BP canon, when you read up on the profile of Steele, you'll even notice that he was educated in a 'Space War College' that expressly deals with military courses, such as Bachelors in 'Battlefield Psychology' and Masters in 'Strategic Studies', with treatises written on military matters such as warship design. This implies by far, a much greater degree of militarism than any nation we've ever seen on Earth, if there are recognized graduate and post graduate degrees in, essentially, how to wage war.

That is really, really untrue. Think, for a moment, what places like West Point (home of the US Military Academy) or Annapolis (US Navy Academy) are for. Or what any number of think tanks are doing.

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Furthermore, it is said that the decision to invade Sol was made by the security council, which is the military branch of the GTVA.

No, it's not. The Security Council is the highest governing body of the GTVA, named so because the GTVA as an organization is charged with securing humanity's continued existence. Just like the UN Security Council, it is staffed by civilians, and ultimately elected by the populace.


Quote
Why is this the accepted consensus? For the love of me i cannot understand why a civilization which is both technologically and numerically disadvantaged as well as suffering from VASTLY inferior training, experience and war mentality is achieving such ridiculous kill ratios in all engagements that we see. The discrepancy in the combat prowess should so vast that aside from a considerable numerical superiority, or a substantial tactical advantage (something not likely to happen considering the superior training and experience of the GTVA commanders), the UEF should be horrifically losing all battles involving capships, but instead we see the exact opposite, such as 4 frigates and 2 cruisers taking on 4 corvettes, 4 cruisers and a destroyer with ZERO losses (delanda est).

Wow. Have you played the mission? Last time I did, the UEF lost 3 Frigates, 4 Cruisers, and an AWACS...

Quote
A frigate is roughly the same mass as a corvette (they're longer, but much slimmer), but has some of its space and personnel taken up by a fighter bay and maintenance facilities, so you'd assume it wouldn't perform as well in a direct combat role as a corvette. If you then factor in the inferior weapons and reactor tech of the UEF compared to the GTVA, you're left with the logical assumption that a UEF frigate should be decisively outgunned by a TEV corvette (which isn't true in the slightest, and we see Karunas packing an insane 29(!!!!) turrets). And yet, we don't see a single mission in which this happens like it actually should except at the very end of delanda est. In the mission before that, we see an Orion with full fighter complement run away from 2 Karunas approaching it in an optimal broadside position for the Orion, yet strangely the Orion jumped out?

FS Warfare 101. What you see on the field is not the entire force available. Lopez was told, in no uncertain terms, that she was flying into a trap. She chose to bug out, and assemble her escorts. Which, as it turns out, was the correct choice of action.

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Even ignoring the fact that the weapons, armor and jump drive on the Carthage were said to be upgraded, the frigates were approaching from an angle that would have seen them in range of 2 BGreens and 2 TerSlash beams, which should quickly reduce both ships into flaming hulks.

According to what, exactly? Remember, the UEF has the demonstrated ability to jam direct-fire beam targeting. Also keep in mind that UEF frigates are built to disarm opponents at extreme range using their Gauss Cannons and missiles.

Quote
If we replaced those Karunas with Deimos corvettes, although the Orion would take substantial damage, the plan would be considered doomed to failure. So why are ships with less powerful weaponry seemingly performing better against a souped up version of a ship which would ordinarily kill a pair of Deimos. This puzzles me beyond all belief, as the game texts say one thing, which seems logical and believable, yet what we see in-game is the exact opposite and makes no sense whatsoever.

If you replaced the Karunas with Deimos-class ships, the entire battle plan would be different. As stated above, Karunas are built on an entirely different paradigm than GTVA ships (precision damage through Gauss Cannons and Mass Drivers with Apocalypse spam on the side). The UEF ships are built to disarm and disable, not destroy directly. Also note that the main anti-capital firepower in the UEF navy is delivered via bombers like the Vajradahara, which you haven't seen in action so far.

Quote
Tl;Dr: Peace loving hippies with inferior tech are somehow performing ridiculously well against a higher tech society, geared for war, with nearly a century of constant warfare to hone their skills, weapons and ship designs. Wtf

...

The UEF are not exactly "Peace loving hippies". They are a society that hasn't had to live with the possibility of destruction by weakly god-like entities; they are about as peace-loving hippie-ish as any democracy on RL Earth. Those peace loving hippies have, in fact, built a military that is far more powerful than anything they could possibly need for intrasystem policing duties. Think about that for a second. In addition, do not automatically think that Beams are higher-tech than the missiles and mass drivers produced by the UEF. While Beams do fit the GTVA paradigm of having long-range, low maintenance ships rather well, the UEF was able to pursue more ressource-intensive ways of outfitting their ships. As Norbert said, UEF ships are high maintenance, low endurance, but have extreme firepower for their size.
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