Author Topic: IDF: 10 year old girl is valid target  (Read 57353 times)

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Offline Janos

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Quote
Originally posted by erratus
In no way, shape or form do I want to be seen as defending his actions, but a bit of context is always nice...

Do you remember how, a few months ago, Arafat's Fatach members gave a 13-year-old boy a bag with a bomb in it and how, when the boy was discovered at a checkpoint (and people wonder why the checkpoints are there!) his handlers tried to blow up the bag (and the boy)? Not nice.

So a 13-year-old girl with a school bag wanders into a closed military zone (which is clearly labeled as such). The soldiers tell the girl (in Arabic) to bugger off, but she comes closer. So a soldier shoots her. Now, this is against the rules and that is why this soldier was convicted of the crime the other day in a CIVILIAN (note: not military) court.
[/b]
Yeah. Like, she was actually going away from the soldiers and was 100 yards away. She was totally coming straight for them!


Personally, I don't think shooting the girl was wrong. (By regularly using child combatants in the past four years, the Pallies have condemned ALL their children to be suspected of being combatants from now on). What I object to was the way the soldier 'confirmed the kill' by shooting her repeatedly at close range. That is wrong, and punishment worthy.

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Obviously, the usual liberal 'peace in our day' types have been condemning this soldier and all of Israel repeatedly since this happened. But what I don't understand is why we don't hear the bleeding hearts condemn Pallies when they run up the street with Israeli entrails in their hands? It has happened - on numerous occasions.

Right. All liberal leftie loonies always, categorically, praise and support suicide bombings and terror acts, because THEY HATE ISRAEL.
...
what.

We, the godless commie pinko gay liberal elite, are pretty eager to condemn terrorist actions and Pal dumb****ery, if you haven't noticed, and it seems you haven't. Of course, I/P thingamungie is so polarized that every single discussion about it is immediately degenerated into retarded flamewar, but that aspect is enforced by the fact that pretty many who take part on these discussions are
A) already on one side, and they ain't gonna change it, darn!
B) ignorant.

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Moreover, when a Pallie kills an Israeli civilian, the rest of them cheer in the street! Football tournaments are named after him! Streets are named after him! Summer camps for children are named after him! You think I'm joking? Have a look here http://www.pmw.org.il/murderF.htm, here http://www.pmw.org.il/4 Loopholes in US Anti-Terror Laws_b.htm and here http://www.pmw.org.il/sperep6-033.html!

But where are the condemnations of Pallie actions? Two sets of standards for two different people groups? That's racism, people! (Not to mention hypocrisy!)


Nice playing of racist card, congratulations, and also two thumbs up from great source! Thats the best journalism I've ever seen. Besides, what is your point here? Pals do bad stuff? NO **** SHERLOCK. All Pals are guilty? Nope. Red herring?
lol wtf

 

Offline erratus

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What bollocks. The gay-pink-fill-your-cause-in-here lot are quick to condemn Pallie terrorism - but just as quick to contextualise it with 'occupation'. If they don't actually explicitly justify Pallie terrorism, they bloody well imply its acceptance.

Whereas, in their regular condemnations of Israeli actions, contextualisation will never occur. There is a key difference here.

As for my message not being cutting edge journalism, here I was thinking this was a discussion board. Sorry for not reaching your high referencing standards.

And the link to PMW is valid. That organisation translates Palestinian newspapers. If it condemns anyone, its in the words of the PA.

You'll have to excuse me for jumping to the conclusion that you're biased, but I didn't see you condemning the extraordinarily racist material the PA publishes in their official newspaper. Oh, but do we justify that, do we?

If the same material was published by the Israeli government, you'd scream bloody murder!

Double standards equals hypocrisy. There are no two ways around it.
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Offline vyper

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Yes double standards. The jews employed terrorist tactics against the British in Palestine prior to our withdrawal, yet when the Palestinians do it to you - all of a sudden it's a "Wrong" method?
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Offline Janos

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Quote
Originally posted by erratus
What bollocks. The gay-pink-fill-your-cause-in-here lot are quick to condemn Pallie terrorism - but just as quick to contextualise it with 'occupation'. If they don't actually explicitly justify Pallie terrorism, they bloody well imply its acceptance.

Whereas, in their regular condemnations of Israeli actions, contextualisation will never occur. There is a key difference here.
[/b]

I... I... **** it.
I/P issue is, as stated, polarized and filled with idiots. Some people try to see the both sides of the coin.

Israel is expected to have the moral high ground in the issue. Their average living conditions are just vastly better than in average Palestinians, they are a democracy etc. Really exaggerated and provocative argument: They are, as a country, much much better off than the Pal Authority. As acknowledged part of the more Western culture, they are also supposed to abandon the Hammurabian code and act civilized. I am a relativist, whatever. You get my point, I hope.
In most of the times they do retain the upper ground - they do not punish civilians and boast about it. Of course, civilian casualties happen and there might be a way to reduce them, but still they could be claimed as "superior" to groups like Islamic Jihad, Hamas' militant wing etc.. Some people compare Israel actions with those of Nazis, which is utter bull**** and should be rewarded with one-way ticket to ignore list.
On the other hand the Israels do live in tough situations, and I am first to admit that it has understandable repercussions. IMHO it's not a huge crime to shoot someone who acts suspiciously when stuck in a firefight. If the guy is unarmed, it's not right, but neither is it a deliberate murder.

THen comes the Pal stuff. They are a corrupt and nearly anarchist regime, education is nearly nonexistant and if it exists, it's pretty often in the hands of groups like Hamas and so on. Their official regime is in ruins after years of intifada, internal and external warfare, lack of cash, occupation, struggle and that kind of ****. Like in many nations approaching total collapse. Also, their culture is pretty different

In such case we may understand why the suicide bombings take place, but that does not mean we condone them. With no future, one might grab a piece of TNT and head to fight off the oppressor. OK. The oppressor happens to be a car full of kids. Not ok.  

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As for my message not being cutting edge journalism, here I was thinking this was a discussion board. Sorry for not reaching your high referencing standards.

And the link to PMW is valid. That organisation translates Palestinian newspapers. If it condemns anyone, its in the words of the PA.


No problem, bro, it's only hurting you. Giving good links is not just tampering to some elitism, it's about what kind of impression you give and how people will weigh the info you give them. I do not find a page like the PMW trustworthy. Cite Reuters or something like that. Do not cite a site in which's front page there are just words "welcome to pmw.org" and which's content is just slabbed together. I don't like those rules because they are "elitist", I like those rules because IMHO objective and calm reporting gives everyone a equal chance of figuring out what is happening and form their own opinion.  

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You'll have to excuse me for jumping to the conclusion that you're biased, but I didn't see you condemning the extraordinarily racist material the PA publishes in their official newspaper. Oh, but do we justify that, do we?

If the same material was published by the Israeli government, you'd scream bloody murder!

Double standards equals hypocrisy. There are no two ways around it. [/B]


I don't see you condemning the Sabra massacre. Oh, but do we justify that, do we?
Funny game. Shall we play it some more?

I don't see you condemning East Timor situation!

See my point up there. I would condemn Israeli stuff, as I would condemn Pal stuff. But what comes out to daylight more often due to it's surprising nature?
lol wtf

 

Offline TrashMan

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Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich

That's the misinformed opinion that people like you - no personal offense, dude - form from reading just one POV, one article, one news report. More on this below.


Nope, that's LOGIC. Unless palestinians don't have transporters (beam me up Scotty) that girl must have come from SOMEWHERE.
It's not like she can cross 500m in two seconds.
The soldiers and the officers clearly had time to stop her and NOT to kill her. They could have shot her in the legs. They could have handled it another way.


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I don't like terrorists one bit. Shooting at heavily armed military units and then hiding in refugee camps packed to overflowing with innocent men, women and children. Such nasty people, those IDF refugee-camp-wiper-outers. :rolleyes:

As for the bulldozers - pfft. Blame the driver on the highway whose car your daughter jumped out in front of and subsequently got smeared all over the asphalt by with manslaughter. Real logical thinking there.


But of course! How blind of me. All those refugees weren't run over by buldozers! they were throwing themselvs under them in a mass suicide craze.
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Offline Sandwich

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Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan
Nope, that's LOGIC. Unless palestinians don't have transporters (beam me up Scotty) that girl must have come from SOMEWHERE.
It's not like she can cross 500m in two seconds.
The soldiers and the officers clearly had time to stop her and NOT to kill her. They could have shot her in the legs. They could have handled it another way.


Like I said, you're only reading one article, where the soldiers opened fire immediately. I happened to read an article that reported that the girl - who was actually a shape-shifting monster with dripping fangs and tentacles - pulled a handheld howitzer out of her backback and started firing at the Prime Minister of Malaysia, who just so happened to be in the area. The Israeli soldiers in the nearby outpost saw this, shouted at the girl/monster-with-drippy-fangs-and-tentacles to stop her belligerent actions, but she/it didn't respond. So after 15 minutes of shouting to stop, the soldiers opened fire and killed the girl/monster.

That's the only version I read, so it must be true. Those must be the events exactly as they occurred, and it's unthinkable that any details were modified or ommitted from the account of the eye-witness reporter who was there and caught it all on his newfangled holographic 3D-video recorder.

...I hope I've made my point.


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Originally posted by TrashMan

But of course! How blind of me. All those refugees weren't run over by buldozers! they were throwing themselvs under them in a mass suicide craze.


"All those refugees"? I recall the one (unthinkably dumb) peace activist who stood in front of an armored D9 and subsequently got run over. What were the headlines? "Peace Activist Run Over By Israeli Bulldozer in Gaza"? How about, "Fluffy the Cat Run Over By Car When Fluffy Didn't Get Out From Underneath Car When Engine Started"?

And to be fair, yes, there was the one (?) incident where a Palestinian house was demolished with residents inside. Also to be fair, Israel gave the usual advance warning about the impending demolition of the house. "I am going to shoot my rifle at those terrorists over yonder, please stop standing directly in front of it."

Anyway, I do apologize if this post has been heavy with sarcasm... I just woke up and my diplomatic braincells are still warming up.
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Offline erratus

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Israel is expected to have the moral high ground in the issue. Their average living conditions are just vastly better than in average Palestinians, they are a democracy etc.


You're damn right that Israel is democratic. But is it Israel's fault that the Pallies aren't? Why should Israel suffer from dual standards just because Pallie school teachers instruct their pupils that they'll get 72 young hotties if they kill one Jew?

When I call for one standard, I'm not suggesting that Israel lowers hers. I'm suggesting the world stop its hypocrisy and start demanding of the Pallies that they start respecting human rights. If we justify (or 'understand') Pallie terrorism because they're Palestinians, or because they're Arabs, or because they're poor, or because they're not democratic, etc etc than what we are guilty of is considering the Palestinians as less than us. That is racism. I demand the Pallies stop incitement and terrorism because I consider them as equals.

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THen comes the Pal stuff. They are a corrupt and nearly anarchist regime, education is nearly nonexistant and if it exists, it's pretty often in the hands of groups like Hamas and so on. Their official regime is in ruins after years of intifada, internal and external warfare, lack of cash, occupation, struggle and that kind of ****. Like in many nations approaching total collapse. Also, their culture is pretty different.

In such case we may understand why the suicide bombings take place, but that does not mean we condone them. With no future, one might grab a piece of TNT and head to fight off the oppressor. OK. The oppressor happens to be a car full of kids. Not ok.


You were doing well, until you forgot the fact that by far and away, most Pallie terrorists/'activists'/'misunderstood democracy lovers'/whatever are actually middle class, well off and have the ability to make a go of it.

Besides, if Pallies wanted peace, they would educate their children to peace. It's as simple as that. But they don't. They are taught that the Jew must die. That ALL of Israel is an occupation, and therefore that 'Palestine' won't be free until Israel is destroyed. That shahada, or death for Allah, is something to be attained.

And then what do we see? We see young children on official television start to repeat these messages.

And then what do we see? We see 14, 15 and 16 year old boys and girls go to the frontlines and endanger themselves - but not because they hate Israel! No! Because, as revealed in the notes they leave at home (and which are proudly reproduced in the Palestinian papers the next day), they proudly claim that they went to the frontlines to seek shahada. These kids are looking for death not because they are desperate or occupied or whatever, but because they have been taught that it would be a good thing.

And then what do we see? We see summer camps for 14  year old girls named after a 16 year old shahida!

To summarise it, the PA encourages children to die, children start expressing and acting upon their new found wish to die, and the the PA glorifies their memory. It's a self perpetuating cycle and it is THAT which has caused this terrorism, not Israeli heavy handedness.

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Giving good links is not just tampering to some elitism, it's about what kind of impression you give and how people will weigh the info you give them. I do not find a page like the PMW trustworthy. Cite Reuters or something like that. Do not cite a site in which's front page there are just words "welcome to pmw.org" and which's content is just slabbed together. I don't like those rules because they are "elitist", I like those rules because IMHO objective and calm reporting gives everyone a equal chance of figuring out what is happening and form their own opinion.


PMW may have an awful website, and you may even disagree with their conclusions. But they are the only organisation in the world that exclusively monitors and translates official PA media. I wasn't linking you to that site for a lesson in webpage publication, but to read the words of the PA to its citizens translated verbatim into English. I can assure you that if Reuters were to supply the same service, I would link you to their (much prettier) site. But they don't. So I can't.

Look past the ugly website. Can you justify (or even 'understand') the PA telling its people that if you die without wanting to kill Jews, then you don't actually die a Muslim at all? Because that's what it tells its constituents. I'd link you to the site, but, oh, it's ugly and 'just slabbed together'.

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I don't see you condemning the Sabra massacre. Oh, but do we justify that, do we?


I unreservedly condemn all those that took part in the massacres of Sabra and Chatilla. Those that took part should be tried for war crimes. Absolutely nothing in the world justifies deliberate attacks on civilians, because this is terrorism. The Phalange Christians that carried out that massacre should be shot.

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I don't see you condemning East Timor situation!


I know little of the East Timor situation. As far as I know, Australian-led forces have stabilsed the country, killed off the Indonesian militants and are currently helping East Timor to establish itself among the countries of the world. Not much to condemn there!

ALL deliberate targeting of civlians is wrong. It's as simple as that. Terrorism is the deliberate targeting of civilians. People who attempt to justify or 'understand' terrorism are almost as bad as the terrorists themselves.
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Offline Setekh

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Welcome to HLP, erratus. Nice blog. :)

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Offline erratus

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Quote
Originally posted by vyper
Yes double standards. The jews employed terrorist tactics against the British in Palestine prior to our withdrawal, yet when the Palestinians do it to you - all of a sudden it's a "Wrong" method?


Sorry, Sunshine. The Jews employed guerrilla tactics against the British in Palestine prior to your withdrawal. Guerrilla tactics against occupying forces can be justified. Though many Israelis or pro-Israelis might disagree with me, I never and will never condemn Palestinian military activities against Israeli military targets. Terrorism is WRONG. Targeting legitimate military targets is not terrorism.

'Oh, but Israel is a strong army,' I hear you whinge. 'What chance do the Pallies have against tanks?'

Hizbullah waged a very effective guerrilla campaign against the Israeli military (with only the occasional lapse into terrorism), and succeeded in removing the Jewish state from Lebanon. Guerrilla warfare can and does work. It worked for Michael Collins, it worked for the Hizbullah, it worked for the Hagana, and - if they stuck to soldiers and not civilians - it would work for the Pallies in a matter of months.

In pre-State Palestine there were, undoubtedly, a few cases of Jewish terrorism. Despite total condemnations by the Jewish leadership at the time and since, those actions will continue to remain a stain on Israel's history.

But let us never forget that Palestinian violence against civilian targets (i.e. terrorism) was far more prevalent than Jewish terrorism.
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Offline Lynx

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Remeber, terrorism and guerrilla tactics are often interchangeable. While the Irgun and Stern gang were more selective with their targets, it still resulted in a very large number of innocent civilians being dead, like when they blew up King David Hotel   in 1946. It should be noted however that they warned them.
On the other hand, they often used actions similar to Palestinian tacitcs like bombing british police stations and at one or two occasions palestinian cafès. So they aren't innocent either.
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Offline Janos

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Quote
Originally posted by erratus


You're damn right that Israel is democratic. But is it Israel's fault that the Pallies aren't? Why should Israel suffer from dual standards just because Pallie school teachers instruct their pupils that they'll get 72 young hotties if they kill one Jew?
[/b]
One could argue that under given circumstances there is simply no way for PA to become democratic. Political change under such situation would result in lot of bloodshed. Besides, at this moment I am not eager to give Hamas any more power that it has. In the future, yes, democracy should be the goal.  One could also argue that Israel is at least partially guilty of the situation, but meh. Yeah yeah, it partially is, so are the Pals, [insert XX pages of discussion here].

I don't think that immoral activities of side A should authorisize immoral activities of side B. "They did it too!" is kindergarden attitude - a violent and shortsighted method which only results in more violence.

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When I call for one standard, I'm not suggesting that Israel lowers hers. I'm suggesting the world stop its hypocrisy and start demanding of the Pallies that they start respecting human rights. If we justify (or 'understand') Pallie terrorism because they're Palestinians, or because they're Arabs, or because they're poor, or because they're not democratic, etc etc than what we are guilty of is considering the Palestinians as less than us. That is racism. I demand the Pallies stop incitement and terrorism because I consider them as equals.
[/b]

Go for it. Demand it. I demand it too. However:
Understanding the reasons and motives != racism. I have much easier time in understanding why someone with no future becomes a suicide bomber than understanding why eccentric millionaire from Germany becomes a suicide bomber. It does not imply some weird racial thing - I do not think Palestinians are lesser people because their society, so far, is a ****ing mess. Got that? Fine. Thank you.
 

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You were doing well, until you forgot the fact that by far and away, most Pallie terrorists/'activists'/'misunderstood democracy lovers'/whatever are actually middle class, well off and have the ability to make a go of it.
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Source plz.
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Besides, if Pallies wanted peace, they would educate their children to peace. It's as simple as that. But they don't. They are taught that the Jew must die. That ALL of Israel is an occupation, and therefore that 'Palestine' won't be free until Israel is destroyed. That shahada, or death for Allah, is something to be attained.

If Jews wanted peace, they would educate their children to not to shoot unarmed kids. :rolleyes:

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BLAH BLAH PALLIES SUCK

k mate!
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ALL deliberate targeting of civlians is wrong. It's as simple as that. Terrorism is the deliberate targeting of civilians. People who attempt to justify or 'understand' terrorism are almost as bad as the terrorists themselves. [/B]


What. is. this. ****ing. bull****.

"Understanding terrorism" has two meanings. One: the way you use it, it's like silent condoning. "Oh, well they're just wee laddies, nothing worse than a frat prank, you know."
The other way is try to figure out the reasons behing terrorism. Why it happens. What causes people to become suicide bombers, or kidnappers, or religious freaks, or whatever. Semantics, yes.
lol wtf

 

Offline vyper

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They weren't born wanting to do it.
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Offline Eviscerator

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Quote
Originally posted by Lynx
Remeber, terrorism and guerrilla tactics are often interchangeable.  


Totally untrue. I taught Guerrilla Wafare and Counter-Terrorism at the War College at Fort Leavenworth.

Simply speaking, guerrilla warfare is a set of tactics that a smaller, or less technologically advanced, force uses against a superior military force. Rather than a frontal confrontation, the guerrilla force will sabotage his enemy's military assets. A school-bus full of children has no military value.

A guerrilla force will also use creative ways to kill his soldiers, such as ambush and booby traps. It is strictly hit and fade. Only in this regard is it in ANY way similar to the tactics favored by terrorists.

The goal of the guerrilla fighter is to weaken a superior enemy's ability to fight before he faces his enemy openly.

A terrorist's goal is to use fear and terror to meet his goals. Hence the term "terrorist". He accomplishes this by targeting those things that will get an emotional reaction from his enemy, and spread fear through the families of his enemy. Targeting and using children and other civilians is a prime example of this. By doing this he can "persuade" his enemy's citizens to pressure their government to cave to the terrorist's demands.

There is more to it than that, but I have no wish to cloud the issue anymore than it already is.
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Offline Eviscerator

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Quote
Originally posted by Janos


Source plz.

If Jews wanted peace, they would educate their children to not to shoot unarmed kids. :rolleyes:
 


As long as you asked somebody else for a source, so am I asking you.
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Offline Rictor

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Why is terrorism only defined in terms of what "they" do to "us"? 100,00 civilians dead in Iraq, and you're telling me thats not terrorism?

Bin Laden is responsible for the deaths of 3000 innocent people.
Bush is responsible for the deaths of 100,000+ (remember Afghanistan?) innocent people.

Which one is the terrorist again? The same applies to Israel/Palestine. According to every statistic available, including Israeli sources, Israel has killed more innocents since the start of the second intifada than suicide bombers have killed Israeli civies.

When the US trains and finances death-squads and assasins in Latin America, thats not terrorism?

 

Offline erratus

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Quote
Originally posted by Lynx
Remeber, terrorism and guerrilla tactics are often interchangeable. While the Irgun and Stern gang were more selective with their targets, it still resulted in a very large number of innocent civilians being dead, like when they blew up King David Hotel   in 1946. It should be noted however that they warned them.
On the other hand, they often used actions similar to Palestinian tacitcs like bombing british police stations and at one or two occasions palestinian cafès. So they aren't innocent either.


I never meant to imply that those Irgun bastards were innocent. However (as much as I think it was wrong), the King David Hotel was a legitimate target. It was the seat of British power in Palestine. (This is different from targeting a parliament building in which elected officials work.) To use an American example, targeting the Pentagon is legitmate but targeting Capitol Hill is not.

Oh, and terrorist and guerrilla tactics are NOT interchangable. One group may choose to use both terror and guerrilla warfare (in which case the group delegitimises itself). But an individual action is either terrorism or warfare, a legitimate target or otherwise.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2004, 02:38:14 pm by 2323 »
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Offline Bobboau

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"To use an American example, targeting the Pentagon is legitmate but targeting Capitol Hill is not."

actualy I'd say both of those whould be legitimate targets, what wouldn't be a legitimate target would be like cafès and ****.
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Offline erratus

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Quote
Originally posted by Janos

I don't think that immoral activities of side A should authorisize immoral activities of side B. "They did it too!" is kindergarden attitude - a violent and shortsighted method which only results in more violence.


I covered that. Pallies should up their miserable standards. Israel should keep its fine standards.


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Source plz.


Give me a couple of days to work on that. And don't let me get away with not answering you.

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If Jews wanted peace, they would educate their children to not to shoot unarmed kids. :rolleyes:


And that is where you show your considerable bias and/or ignorance. The commission started way back in 1996 has consistantly found that Israel's text books and education policies changed considerably after the signing of the Oslo accords. Palestinian history (what little there is of it!) was taught, as were the Palestinian plight, perspectives and consequences of the 1948 and 1967 wars.

That same commission (which, I might add, was formed as part of the negotiated Wye River Memorandum) has found that the Pallies changed two books! Two! That's peace education for you. Pretty good stuff!


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"Understanding terrorism" has two meanings. One: the way you use it, it's like silent condoning. "Oh, well they're just wee laddies, nothing worse than a frat prank, you know."
The other way is try to figure out the reasons behing terrorism. Why it happens. What causes people to become suicide bombers, or kidnappers, or religious freaks, or whatever. Semantics, yes.


Yeah - I provided one way. A look at how Palestinian education practises have seen children express their wish to die a shahid's death on TV and in written notes and then go out and die. And how the PA celebrates their death, thus encouraging more terrorism. And you dismissed such efforts to 'figure out the reasons behing [sic] terrorism' as 'blah blah'.

What this shows, Sunshine, is that any evidence that doesn't fit into your preconceived notions of the conflict are instantly dismissed. That whole 'blah blah' paragraph that you helpfully deleted was not the rantings of a Zionist, but evidence of what the PA does. If they teach their kids that until Israel is destroyed then the occupation will continue, then I say they don't get a state.
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Offline erratus

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Quote
Originally posted by vyper
They weren't born wanting to do it.


You mean the Pallies? You're right! They were educated in the PA school system.
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Offline erratus

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Quote
Originally posted by Eviscerator


Totally untrue. I taught Guerrilla Wafare and Counter-Terrorism at the War College at Fort Leavenworth.



Hear hear!
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