Hard Light Productions Forums

Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => The Modding Workshop => Topic started by: whitearrow on May 30, 2013, 01:27:53 pm

Title: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on May 30, 2013, 01:27:53 pm
PROJECT CURRENT STATUS:
I subscribed a P3d account. Here is the model at the current status.


" width="100%" height="480px" frameborder="0" seamless allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen>
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Phantom Hoover on May 30, 2013, 02:00:21 pm
Looks promising. Definitely has a UEF feel about the structural elements, like those detached armour plates.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Beskargam on May 30, 2013, 03:07:28 pm
I was gonna say mass effect-y with the swept "wings". But I very much see the UEF resemblance. Congrats and keep up the good work
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: An4ximandros on May 30, 2013, 04:16:24 pm
 I see none of Blue Planet's metastatic influence.

 The ship's silhouette is quite interesting, looking forward to more pics. :nod:
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Black Wolf on May 30, 2013, 09:08:53 pm
Interesting. Getting a bit of a SW vibe from it myself, to add to the confusion. :D

Is it intended for the FS universe, out of curiosity? If so, what role do you see it playing? Frigate has been used ambiguously and inconsistently (The Iceni was consistently called a "Command Frigate" and the Hippocrates a "Medical Frigate", so the way I've always rationalized that is that a frigate is a greater-than-cruiser sized ship with a specialized function - any plans for such a function with this ship?
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on May 31, 2013, 08:02:54 am
Yes, it is intended for FS universe and it's a stealth long range artillery asset. It's mission is to rapidly destroy dreadnoughts' support ships from safe distance, to allow other friendly ships to concentrate fire on their main target.
Actually t's a long story: this design is influenced by so many games/movies that I'm afraid it's becoming a bit confusing.

Let's start from the beginning: initially it was intended as an UEF ship. I was intrigued by those armored plates on Karuna's aft and wanted to build something with them. Than I played Shadow Genesis and appreciated the mighty power of Nightmare's beams, but they were poorly protected. I could sweep away an entire fleet's main firepower with a sigle fighter thanks to extraordinarily effective long range weapons.
Finally I also had a look to BlasterNT's stealth bomber.

SO,
I wanted to merge all these features into one ship: stealth design, UEF-like armour, super-heavy long range primary laser, well protected and difficult to target (infact the beam's emitter is recessed into the hull, altough still visible from the very front view). I'm currently building it's primary structure, that has a Yamato-battleship feeling indeed...
The general arrow + swept-wing design is inspired to Star Wars' Imperial destryers. I plan to arrange the engines exhoust nozzles like the Executor-class superdestroyer's.
It won't feature all that greebling you can find on SW ships instead: I need the upper deck to remain polish to maintain stealth capability. There will be also some AAA turrets but not too many: I don't want the ship to seem overpowered, since it is already heavily armoured, stealth, fast and has a deadly primary.

As far as the size is concerned I think that, once finished, it will be more or less as big as the UEF Narayana...
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on June 02, 2013, 07:46:11 am
The hull is taking shape...

This is my very first model (except for the one from the ShadowWolf_IH's tutorial, which I found extremely useful), so all good advices all welcome!

[attachment deleted by ninja]
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Phantom Hoover on June 02, 2013, 09:02:50 am
I'm liking the way the structure's looking, but are you going to be adding more 'solid' areas? Right now the cannon seems to be the only non-armour section except for the bridge.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on June 02, 2013, 11:49:15 am
yes of course! The cannon and the engineering section are the only parts that you can see right now, but there will be a fighter bay, two heavy turrets on the dorsal side and some AAA turrets spread around the entire ship. I plan to add some antennas here and there... :) don't worry it won't appear so flat...
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: headdie on June 02, 2013, 11:58:05 am
I think PhantomHoover hover is on about the fact that all the ship seems to be atm is a cannon with a load of plates stuck to it, many of which, to me anyway, dont seem to be protecting anything, jutting away from the ship with not even anything to support them.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on June 02, 2013, 01:09:07 pm
I think PhantomHoover hover is on about the fact that all the ship seems to be atm is a cannon with a load of plates stuck to it, many of which, to me anyway, dont seem to be protecting anything, jutting away from the ship with not even anything to support them.
the ship actually IS a cannon with plates. The plates will gain a support and will protect the secondary anti-ship weaponry. I will add thicker armour to the cannon in case.

Anyway, what improvements are you suggesting?
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: headdie on June 02, 2013, 01:27:49 pm
Personally, it dosnt look like there are a lot of places for crew to occupy, sub systems to be located and stuff like that unless you are thinkign they should be in the plates themselves, also looking at the cannon is it a UEF mass driver type?  in which case where woudl the ammo be stored.

while I know this sort of stuff comes under the category of what ever works for you and it's your model to take where you like, to me it feels to streamlined to be plausible.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Mars on June 03, 2013, 06:53:33 am
Personally, it dosnt look like there are a lot of places for crew to occupy, sub systems to be located and stuff like that unless you are thinkign they should be in the plates themselves, also looking at the cannon is it a UEF mass driver type?  in which case where woudl the ammo be stored.

while I know this sort of stuff comes under the category of what ever works for you and it's your model to take where you like, to me it feels to streamlined to be plausible.

The crew of an Orion could fit in a Fenris or less. I don't think the crew will be too cramped.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on June 03, 2013, 11:56:06 am
Personally, it doesn't look like there are a lot of places for crew to occupy, sub systems to be located and stuff like that unless you are thinking they should be in the plates themselves, also looking at the cannon is it a UEF mass driver type?  in which case where woudl the ammo be stored.

while I know this sort of stuff comes under the category of what ever works for you and it's your model to take where you like, to me it feels to streamlined to be plausible.

Ok, now the point is clear. Maybe the perspective is a bit confusing. In the stern section, there is a quite a lot of space in the gap between the "core" (engine) and the plates to be filled with crew's quarters, I don't think it'll be a problem.

Anyway, I think that maybe I was misunderstood: the picture I posted don't even nearly represent the final version of the ship. I wanted to show the evolution of the project to attract suggestions: indeed there is still plenty of stuff I have to add under those big plates. The ship is going to look more massive than it seems right now...

On the cannon's type... I meant it to be a high energy weapon. I'm aware that this is not the kind of stuff the UEF is used to build. But, as I said, I played the Shadow Genesis campaign and I learnt how dangerous energy weapons can be. I wanted to give UEF something to allow them to sweep away a deimos-class with ease.
Spoiler:
In Blue Planet's storyline, I think this kind of weapon can be justified by the analysis of the Agincourt's databases and subsequent development of an energy cannon based on GTVA's researches. Fedayeen captured a Shivan specimen, so they might have used him to hybridize GTVA's technology with Shivan's.
On the other end this doesn't prevent the ship to be used in whatever other FS's campaign.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: headdie on June 03, 2013, 12:20:00 pm
ahhh fair enough then, that makes sense
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: General Battuta on June 03, 2013, 02:35:45 pm
While you should of course draw inspiration from anything that moves you, bear in mind that an energy weapon (or any other kind of weapon) is just as dangerous as the campaign designers make it. All you need to do to see how dangerous energy weapons can be is to table one that does a billion damage. All you need to do to see how useless and ineffectual they are is to table one that does one point of damage.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Rampage on June 06, 2013, 12:21:17 pm
Nice ship...however, one common mistake many new modelers make is they add too much detail before finalizing the general ship of the hull.  This is often overlooked because it is time-consuming to make the hull exactly you imagine it to be.  So make your hull first before adding any bevel to the main structure.  Right now it looks as if your ship is still comprised of simple polygons but already has too much detail - - this will cause much difficulty later if you wish to go back to changing your hull as your little bevels here and there will impede modification.

R
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on June 08, 2013, 01:16:53 pm
You're right, but while the ship is growing, the hull's shape is remaining more or less the same you can see in those previous pictures... I understand your point, but I like to define some details immediately, but only some. The greebling stage is still far from coming...
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: An4ximandros on June 08, 2013, 02:12:39 pm
 Recommend you move pictures to a dedicated site (Ex: ImageShack) or to make a P3d (Or whatever the rival site was called) account. Attachments are deleted by the forum basterd.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on June 12, 2013, 12:28:52 pm
Details of the bridge
(http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/8145/bridgeex.th.jpg) (http://img547.imageshack.us/i/bridgeex.jpg/)
(http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/8692/bridgeantenna.th.png) (http://img33.imageshack.us/i/bridgeantenna.png/)
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on July 08, 2013, 05:01:40 am
New updates!!  :)

aft bow
(http://imageshack.us/a/img812/8180/qtb0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/812/qtb0.jpg/)

aft fore hangar entrance
(http://imageshack.us/a/img827/7816/1ezi.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/827/1ezi.jpg/)

aft hangar entrances
(http://imageshack.us/a/img51/7745/qw45.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/51/qw45.jpg/)

right side view
(http://imageshack.us/a/img542/2205/jgu.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/542/jgu.jpg/)

stern
(http://imageshack.us/a/img585/3669/ahc2.jpg)


Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: headdie on July 08, 2013, 05:43:12 am
certainly looks good
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Luis Dias on July 08, 2013, 05:49:29 am
Beautiful.

That is all.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Crybertrance on July 08, 2013, 10:07:11 am
It looks ****ing epic, I'll tell you that right now! Can't wait to see it finished!
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Luis Dias on July 08, 2013, 10:10:05 am
Draws the exact right lessons from the ISD.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: An4ximandros on July 08, 2013, 10:14:50 am
 Oh, now you can definetly see the BP influence. ;)

Some legendary shitp right here, folks!

 I makes me think of a Karuna mixed with the shape of a Star Destroyer, badassified.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Trivial Psychic on July 08, 2013, 10:46:52 pm
Actually, when I first saw it my first thought was "looks somewhat Cardassan in design influence".
Looks around anxiously to see if Leggate Dumar is listening. :nervous:
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on July 08, 2013, 11:49:04 pm
Looks around anxiously to see if Leggate Dumar is listening. :nervous:
I wonder if he's any relation to Legate Damar (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Damar)...

Draws the exact right lessons from the ISD.
For some reason, it makes me think more of the Kyoto-class, from X3: Albion Prelude.

On the other hand, I've previously described the Kyoto as a cross between an ISD and a Narn cruiser, so...

Either way, awesome ship!
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: An4ximandros on July 08, 2013, 11:50:35 pm
Makes me think of a hybrid between the Systems Alliance and the Turian whateversis ships from Mass Effect, actually.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: TwentyPercentCooler on July 09, 2013, 01:15:48 am
Wait a minute, this is your first model? That's pretty effing impressive. I'm digging the aggressive lines!
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on July 09, 2013, 04:34:51 am
Actually, when I first saw it my first thought was "looks somewhat Cardassan in design influence".
Looks around anxiously to see if Leggate Dumar is listening. :nervous:

ehm, no, I've never been thinking about cardassian vassels for the design... maybe unconsciously, but it was not intentional...

For some reason, it makes me think more of the Kyoto-class, from X3: Albion Prelude.

On the other hand, I've previously described the Kyoto as a cross between an ISD and a Narn cruiser, so...

Either way, awesome ship!
Thank you! I never played X3 or Mass Effect. FS2 actually is the first space sim I'm playing from the time I quit playing Colony Wars series! Anyway, the models that inspired me most were the Executor from Star Wars (which is one of my favorite ships) and Yamato battleship from Star Blazers.

Wait a minute, this is your first model? That's pretty effing impressive. I'm digging the aggressive lines!

Thank you! Yes, except from ShadowWolf_IH's tutorial's training model, this is my first model. It's also the first time I've been doing 3d graphics...  :)
But I will need to go back to the tutorial when my model is finished, because I've done only the modelling steps. Texture, tables etc are still "strangers" to me! Indeed I'm a bit worried about them...  :nervous:
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: ShadowWolf_IH on July 10, 2013, 03:56:31 am
Trust me, they are easy to learn.  I picked turrets up just from the wiki, so they won't be a problem for you.  If this is your first endeavor, and you can get these kinds of results, the rest will be no problem.  The hardest part is deciding to do it.   When you go to UV it the guys in here will become an invaluable help.  The rest is pretty much a cake walk to learn.  As far as the texturing goes, I still go back to the tutorial for Shine and  Normal maps.  No need to worry, I think you'll be just fine.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on July 10, 2013, 07:58:35 am
Finally, I completed the stern... you can see the main engine exhaust and secondary engines exhausts (those horizontal elements at main engines's sides). I tried to give them a stealthy shape according to the general design of the ship.

(http://imageshack.us/a/img822/3474/y5e7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/822/y5e7.jpg/)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img854/5635/m83b.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/854/m83b.jpg/)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img703/8121/twri.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/703/twri.jpg/)
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on August 01, 2013, 08:17:01 pm
So here I am again! Here's a new weapon prototype. It is a pan-tilt gauss cannon, less powerful than the standard one mounted on karuna etc., but has a far superior fire rate. Its purpose is to accurately and rapidly take out GTVA's capital ships' beam emitters in mid-to-close range combat.

(http://imageshack.us/a/img844/5189/dt5w.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/844/dt5w.jpg/)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img10/7564/aw1i.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/10/aw1i.jpg/)
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Crybertrance on August 02, 2013, 09:26:39 am
 :yes: :yes: :yes:
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Darius on August 02, 2013, 09:34:08 am
wow

This one's turning into a real beauty. I'm particularly enjoying the engines: makes it look like a stealth frigate for commanding black-ops operations.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: An4ximandros on August 02, 2013, 09:38:28 am
This ship is turning out cool as heck; keep going.

PS: What's the current poly count?
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on August 02, 2013, 10:51:50 am
the ships is made of 40796 faces - 81764 tris. (The gauss cannon is 1772 faces and 3892 tris.). Right now the ship has only 6 "mag-drivers" (another type of cannon I'm thinking of, you can't already see it in pictures). There is no gauss cannon or point defense guns, but I'm planning to add at least 8-10 gauss and several point defense turrets. Moreover I want to add a ventral tower and provide it with defensive weapons, and an electronic warfare suite. So... the poly count is going to grow a lot.

I read somewhere that some Shivans' ships are working well even if poly count is over 200000. Is it correct?
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Luis Dias on August 02, 2013, 11:14:20 am
Yes, although I do think the Sathanas uses detail boxes cleverly.

If you want to take out some polys I do see some that are probably a waste (like the dense ripples you have in the back thrusters.... which could be executed perfectly with mere normal maps). Otherwise, the model is already pretty faceted I am slightly surprised to see 40k polycount in it.

But don't worry too much about polys. The biggest problem is textures.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on August 02, 2013, 12:31:10 pm
EDIT: P3d window moved to the first post.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: bobbtmann on August 02, 2013, 12:40:41 pm
Are those the hangars under the bridge? I like the openness of them, and that chute exiting forward is really cool.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: An4ximandros on August 02, 2013, 12:54:18 pm
That ship looks fantastic.

Given the amount of detail, I could guess that a good chunk of the polygons your ship has comes from the railguns, or however they are called. Try reducing the amount of polygons on those once you get to optimizing. And as Luis mentioned, a good normal can replace the "bones" in the cavernous engine section.

Aside: The bridge looks awesome as heck. How do you people come up with such interesting shapes? Getting back into modelling is difficult since all I got is the slow boxes and up technique.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on August 02, 2013, 01:33:34 pm
Thank you guys!
Are those the hangars under the bridge? I like the openness of them, and that chute exiting forward is really cool.

Yes, those are the hangars: you land from the rear and depart aft-way (could it be said "aft-way" in english?). They still have to go under a detailing session.

That ship looks fantastic.

Given the amount of detail, I could guess that a good chunk of the polygons your ship has comes from the railguns, or however they are called. Try reducing the amount of polygons on those once you get to optimizing. And as Luis mentioned, a good normal can replace the "bones" in the cavernous engine section.

Aside: The bridge looks awesome as heck. How do you people come up with such interesting shapes? Getting back into modelling is difficult since all I got is the slow boxes and up technique.


Yes, I guess you're right. I should reshape the antennas. I'll try to do the same for the railguns, but I fear it won't be easy without make those cannons too banal...
About the bridge... Well, I wasn't satisfied with the previous version, so I totally rebuilt it. The flow of thoughts that led to that shape was... absurd. I initially was thinking, you know, about those robot helmets with a red light that comes and go. That stripe is sometime triangular, so I used it for the main bridge "window". Than I said: this is one of the most important part of the ship, but it's the most exposed to enemy's fire; so it must be heavily armored. I duplicated, scaled and detached the side panels of the bridge and thickened them. Now it would be nice to break them into some sections I thought and started to engrave the thick shield. Here comes the absurd: that shape reminded me the one of a big CRAB! :) The crab is "heavily armored" so it's perfect!  :lol: The upper round dish was inspired by the Grissom, the scientific vessel destroyed at the beginning of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Kahn. Finally for the antennas I thought to a samurai helmet  :confused: ... THE END... of my mental trip! :p
There was nothing already planned: ideas came to my mind just during modelling... I think you just need to feel inspired and let your unconscious to lead you where he wants...
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: guitarfan01 on August 02, 2013, 06:01:12 pm
I really like it, and it looks great!

But there's one thing that's confusing me. I understand that maybe you are not a native English speaker (congratulations on your excellent command of the language, if so!), and so maybe that's the cause of the confusion.  In English, "aft" means "towards the rear of the ship" while "fore" means "toward the front of the ship."   "Bow" means "the part at the front of the ship" while "stern" means "the part at the rear of the ship." I thought I would tell you this because I was confused that you said "this is the aft" on one or more of your pictures of this most very excellent looking model which seemed to be the bow instead. :)

Blessings!
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on August 02, 2013, 07:17:13 pm
 :nervous: Ooooops.... guitarfan01 you're right. I've been mistaken! Sorry...

I just installed the "mag-drivers". 8 cannons: this should be an almost definitive configuration.

(http://imageshack.us/a/img845/7913/mnkw.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/845/mnkw.jpg/)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img835/8936/am8x.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/835/am8x.jpg/)

So here's the "mag-driver". "Mag" stands for "magnetic". These babes are able to instantly accelerate up to 15000 m/s any metallic stuff you want to put into them. Kinetic projectiles, bombs, dust bins, your old car... :p They are the futuristic version of the XVIII century naval cannons...

I know they're an enormous waste of polys but I like them too much!
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: An4ximandros on August 02, 2013, 07:43:04 pm
Maybe you can ask for help with using detail boxes on those guns? That way you can get all the detail when you are close enough to see it and hide it when you are away from the ship.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on August 07, 2013, 04:21:26 am
I'm moving the p3d window to the first post, so you can find it immediately without scrolling all the topic's pages. I'll keep on posting other updates, renderings as images, comments etc. here below as usual.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on August 10, 2013, 11:13:33 am
UPDATES:
I added some gribbles and plates on the upper stern, expaded the hangar bay, reshaped and slightly detailed the fore hangar gate. I closed all the hull's remaining gaps. The ship is now ready for another detailing session, then I will work on the remaining weapons.
I actually think that the ship is matching the GTD Titan class, due to dimensions (little less then 2 km in length), payload capabilities and firepower( which is actually far superior to the Titan, considering the main beam cannon). So I think I can safely call it a destroyer.   
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: An4ximandros on August 10, 2013, 11:18:32 am
This is turning out really cool. :D
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on August 10, 2013, 12:20:08 pm
Thank you An4x!
I think I will follow your suggestion to use detail boxes....

I posted a couple of questions in the scripting section. If anyone of you guys is expert in scripting (I am not for now), please check out my post here http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=85270.0 (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=85270.0)
thanks!
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on August 13, 2013, 02:10:10 pm
UPDATE:
So, I added a small radar tower on the ventral part of the hull. Than I reshaped again the hangar bay to obtain a better space optimization in relation to the dimension of fighters. 2 radar antennas added.

I also rebuilt my pan-tilt version of the gauss cannon. Not that I wasn't satisfied with the other one, but I felt that its shape didn't match the general mood of the ship.
This is the new version:

(http://imageshack.us/scaled/large/849/dhaj.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/849/dhaj.jpg/)

(http://imageshack.us/scaled/large/826/9q95.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/826/9q95.jpg/)

(http://imageshack.us/scaled/large/838/jnw0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/838/jnw0.jpg/)

Finally I tried to place some cannons (red) on the ship. Here's the result. You can see it also in the p3d window in the first page. Its just a try so the cannon are still floating.
Any opinion on the cannon arrangement will be very appreciated!

(http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/5741/govh.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/5/govh.jpg/)
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: An4ximandros on August 13, 2013, 02:32:59 pm
Are those all the turrets in total, or just the cannons? If only the cannons, you might want to consider removing a few and increasing the firepower of the remaining ones to compensate. Ultradakkus is already pleased with the M-Ds. Overgunning has destroyed many a ship's coolness.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on August 13, 2013, 02:50:12 pm
It's only the cannons. Anyway, yes, I think I'll remove a dozen of them...
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on August 13, 2013, 03:08:49 pm
Ok, I cut down a half of the cannons.

(http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/5968/k3w0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/32/k3w0.jpg/)
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on August 17, 2013, 01:38:03 pm
UPDATE:
I worked on detailing the hangar. I added two lifters. They are not supposed to move: it's only for fashion. I also worked on some antennas and mag-driver cannons to reduce the poly count from 70000 to 44000...

About the hangar, do you think it would need further 3d detailing or should I use textures instead?

(http://imageshack.us/scaled/large/838/2qub.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/838/2qub.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: NeonShivan on August 19, 2013, 11:56:58 am
Hangers don't need to be detailed imho, they're meant for launching fighters or hiding, not for sightseeing, but it's overall your project, not mine, doesn't change the fact that I still love the work you've put into this ship.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: TheGruntMinion on August 19, 2013, 01:07:39 pm
It heavily reminds me of a Star Wars Imperial-class Star Destroyer, probably due to the daggerish shape and Bridge placement. That would make it a craft heavily geared towards forward assault, much like how all the Shivan-inspired attack patterns. Still, very impressive
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: MatthTheGeek on August 19, 2013, 01:13:31 pm
(http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/5968/k3w0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/32/k3w0.jpg/)
=>
(http://shipyards.relicnews.com/hw2/images/anark_vlance.jpg)

Nuff said.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: BritishShivans on August 19, 2013, 02:07:20 pm
I thought of that, too. This ship is starting to remind me of a joint Vaygr-UEF designed ship.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on August 19, 2013, 03:30:19 pm
It heavily reminds me of a Star Wars Imperial-class Star Destroyer, probably due to the daggerish shape and Bridge placement. That would make it a craft heavily geared towards forward assault, much like how all the Shivan-inspired attack patterns. Still, very impressive

Thanks! Yes, all your assumptions are true. Star Wars star destroyers are some of my favorite vessels. The Executor above all.

I thought of that, too. This ship is starting to remind me of a joint Vaygr-UEF designed ship.

It's the first time I see this "Vaygr"...
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: MatthTheGeek on August 19, 2013, 03:50:32 pm
It's the first time I see this "Vaygr"...
You, dear sir, are making kitties cry.

Stopit ;_;
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on August 19, 2013, 04:03:37 pm
Sir, I hereby apologize for making your kitties cry... whatever it means.... ???  :confused:
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: An4ximandros on August 19, 2013, 04:24:21 pm
He's sad you have never experienced this:
(http://www.3angrygamers.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Homeworld+2.jpg)
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: niffiwan on August 19, 2013, 04:26:48 pm
i.e. it's from the game Homeworld (or Homeworld2, I never got around to playing the sequel)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeworld
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Rodo on August 19, 2013, 04:31:00 pm
ahhww now you've ruined it.
he'll spend his days playing hw instead of progressing with the model.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: An4ximandros on August 19, 2013, 05:15:09 pm
MWahahhaahahahah!
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: bobbtmann on August 19, 2013, 05:37:47 pm
ahhww now you've ruined it.
he'll spend his days playing hw instead of progressing with the model.

That'd make two of us  :sigh:
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Luis Dias on August 22, 2013, 12:18:00 pm
^**** where's my cd now?
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: An4ximandros on August 22, 2013, 12:43:05 pm
I still can't get past Thaddis Sabbath. :mad:

Anything you can tell us arrow? :)
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on August 22, 2013, 04:09:42 pm
Not yet! One day I will... (the day I'll try Homeworld... :p)
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on August 25, 2013, 05:21:59 am
Hey guys, I need your advice about this: since the beam cannon is the primary weapon of my ship, I'd like to add some extra protection to prevent it to be wiped out by a single shot. Here's the options I have thought about:

1- a 4 blade iris at the top of the cannon. Each blade has to pivot around the Y axis that passes through a single point (like clock's hands). I asked on the scripting section but I was told it would be difficult to implement;

2- a shield covering the "mouth" of the cannon, like fighters' one (maybe easier than the iris);
In this cases the beam emitter is assigned few hitpoints, so it can be easily destroyed after clearing the iris or weakening the shield ( or destroying an hypothetical shield generator)

3- the beam emitter subsystem is assigned more hitpoints. This is the easiest way, but the less realistic and the less interesting, in my opinion.

Do you think it would be worthy to spend time trying to make the first 2 ideas work, or I'd better to go for the third option? Do you think that this kind of extra protection would give the ship an excessive advantage over the enemies (considering GTVA as enemy)?
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Phantom Hoover on August 25, 2013, 06:12:37 am
Seems like you could do the iris with the 4 blades each rigged to rotate about 4 different points, each 90 degrees apart. You might need to do a bit of trig to work it all out, but it doesn't seem impossible.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: SaltyWaffles on September 15, 2013, 05:54:38 pm
The shield option makes the most sense to me--after all, they're the most efficient, especially given that you could divert power to the shield to recharge it faster than normal, which you couldn't do with armor. On top of that, it'd require bombers to carry anti-shield weapons when before they could just carry an all anti-armor loadout.

That, and I'm not sure how the clock-like blade iris would even work. If the rotating pivot point is the center, doesn't that mean that the blade iris is always at least partially blocking the cannon?

Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Dragon on September 15, 2013, 06:18:06 pm
You can do the iris with the animaiton code already in FSO. The blades would just have to rotate, which can be easily done. As long as there's no translation involved, you should be fine.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: headdie on September 15, 2013, 06:21:21 pm
The issue with the iris solution i think is making the animation happen every time the beam fires.  if using the beam fire sexps then it is workable but if the weapon is free firing then it will be extremely difficult iirc
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on September 16, 2013, 05:04:44 am
Thank you guys for your suggestions!  :)

The shield option makes the most sense to me--after all, they're the most efficient, especially given that you could divert power to the shield to recharge it faster than normal, which you couldn't do with armor. On top of that, it'd require bombers to carry anti-shield weapons when before they could just carry an all anti-armor loadout.

That, and I'm not sure how the clock-like blade iris would even work. If the rotating pivot point is the center, doesn't that mean that the blade iris is always at least partially blocking the cannon?

I think you're right about the shield. It's maybe the best option: it's the easiest to set up and the beam emitter would be visible. Moreover this weapon is meant to fire from a very long distance (the most of times), so the blade's animation wouldn't have been even seen by the player.
(As far as the blades are concerned, they would have had a pivot point each, so the cannon mouth would have been totally unobstructed after the rotation)

I've almost suspended modelling activities in this period because it's exams time at university, so I had very little spare time. Anyway I managed to build the emitter and here is a picture...

(http://imageshack.us/a/img545/921/kt17.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/545/kt17.jpg/) (http://imageshack.us/a/img13/4374/jfm8.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/13/jfm8.jpg/)
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Dragon on September 16, 2013, 06:26:37 am
The issue with the iris solution i think is making the animation happen every time the beam fires.  if using the beam fire sexps then it is workable but if the weapon is free firing then it will be extremely difficult iirc
Spoon managed that on his Caliburn cruisers. They have a simpler hinged door, but the triggers are the same.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Darius on September 16, 2013, 07:36:01 am
You can set animations to trigger on firing.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on September 19, 2013, 06:04:30 pm
(minor) UPDATE:
I worked a little bit over weaponry. If you take a look to the p3d window (first page) you will notice the gauss cannons' configuration (red). I think this will be more or less a definitive layout: 6 gauss cannon on the upper side and 4 on the lower side. I think 10 is a fair number since this is a mid-to-short range type of weapon. (a will 6 torpedo launch tubes) Of course all the others heavy weapons can be used even at short distance, but the ship must be perfectly aligned to the target in order to fire and, given the ship's shape, this wouldn't be so easy when fighting against a Deimos-class ship in close combat.

Those holes inside which the side gauss turrets are placed are intended to break the wings' geometry, because it felt a bit dull to me. But I am uncertain whether to keep them or look for a different solution.

That's all for now. Bye!
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Husker on September 19, 2013, 06:11:54 pm
Ok, THIS is what the Masyaf should be when this gets finished. :cool: :nod:
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Darius on September 19, 2013, 06:34:08 pm
Ok, THIS is what the Masyaf should be when this gets finished. :cool: :nod:

kk
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on September 21, 2013, 11:41:55 am
Just a little size comparison between my ship and FD Vexor by Steve-O (EDIT: Vexor's author added...)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img843/7076/797m.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/843/797m.jpg/)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img834/6629/1z31.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/834/1z31.jpg/)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img585/2629/ir4r.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/585/ir4r.jpg/)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img853/5730/aro0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/853/aro0.jpg/)
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Oddgrim on September 21, 2013, 12:12:21 pm
The ship outline reminds me quite a bit of a fighter, but its design is different enough to distance itself from that. Very well done. c:
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: niffiwan on September 21, 2013, 07:49:33 pm
wow, that's looking really cool  :yes:
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: An4ximandros on September 21, 2013, 08:05:18 pm
(http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/102/278/veni.jpg)
Fantastic. :D
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Phantom Hoover on September 21, 2013, 08:29:11 pm
that is the most brilliant abuse of latin i have ever seen
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Husker on September 23, 2013, 08:53:38 pm
I agree. Though, I'm glad most impressionable kids don't know Latin; or this site for that matter. :D Vidi would be the better use of Latin.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on September 24, 2013, 07:42:53 am
Well, we can make a good compromise through inverting the classic chronological sequence: vidi - veni... :D
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Luis Dias on September 24, 2013, 10:04:12 am
sigh....
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: ShadowWolf_IH on September 25, 2013, 10:58:46 am
That looks really sharp, well done.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Husker on September 25, 2013, 09:57:27 pm
Right, back on topic. :nervous:  :P
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: T-Man on October 02, 2013, 04:51:46 am
*Struggling to understand Blender and barely get a basic shape, sees Whitearrow's Frigate and Vexor*
...I hate you... :lol:.

Nah that ship's looking lovely man; very original design, yet I could see it fitting in with other Federation ships quite well (especially the Sanctus). Not sure on those long 'wings' either side (i'd maybe shorten them a little) but that'd just be personal aesthetic; it looks gorgeous all over; you use a few detail elements really well on this. That beam emitter looked bloody good btw (you had close-ups on a previous page). :yes:

Assuming that Vexor (which looks gorgeous!) is yours too. Nice.  :yes:
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: The E on October 02, 2013, 04:59:20 am
The Vexor (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/FD_Vexor) is Steve-O's model.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: T-Man on October 02, 2013, 05:09:22 am
The Vexor (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/FD_Vexor) is Steve-O's model.
Ah that's still the original/a remake by Steve-O himself. Kudos to him for that one then; assumed it a remake by Arrow; pardon confusion.

Frigate still gorgeous though Arrow :yes:

EDIT: Why am I suddenly thinking of the Imperial March theme looking at the frigate :lol:.

(And O/T: Yes to the 'Veni' picture...just yes...)
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on October 02, 2013, 11:24:26 am
Thank you T-man! Steve-O is a great modeller and I took a lot of inspiration from his work. I like thinking of my ship as Vexor's little brother, if I may say so. Though I think that Vexor is a mature model. Steve-O must have had well clear in mind where he wanted to get, even before he started modelling; whereas I changed so many things from the beginning, that I can say that I would have gotten to the point I am now in half the time otherwise...
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Dragon on October 02, 2013, 01:53:03 pm
Do you think you could also give it Steve-O-style textures? This is quite a unique scheme, but unfortunately, there's only a few ships that follow it. Esarai, on the other hand, has numerous imitators, and Scooby Doo made enough ships in his style to last the community a lifetime. I like having a consistent look across the fleet, not to mention this style lends itself to team colors.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on October 02, 2013, 04:43:59 pm
Well, I was thinking of something different for the textures. This is supposed to be a secret stealth ship, so it should feature some kind of particular coating, e.g. radar absorbing. I may try to "stealthify" a UEF styled texture, but I need to learn how textures work first (it will be my first attempt to texture something!  :D).
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: mjn.mixael on October 02, 2013, 05:13:56 pm
I would waaaaaay rather see 'whitearrow' style textures than 'whitearrow-copycat-Steve-O' style.

Or, more accurately.. I'd rather see whitearrow develop his own creativity than to be limited to copying someone else's style.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Cobra on October 02, 2013, 06:42:53 pm
I love the design of this ship. Bonus points on the first page for immediately making me think of the Eclipse SSD.

*snip*
Fantastic. :D

I get it!
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on October 15, 2013, 08:20:39 pm
little UPDATE:
I tried to add some gribbles at midship. That kind of hears you can see there are part of the electronic warfare equipment... check p3d window.
Let me know if you find it plausible...
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: DahBlount on October 15, 2013, 08:24:38 pm
Looks great! I really can't wait for this to be finished.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on November 14, 2013, 02:44:43 am
Hi guys! I've been away for a while... busy with university things...  :)

Here are some screenshots of my recent progress on the detail side. I hope you like them...

(http://imageshack.com/a/img707/7301/lc8u.jpg) (http://imageshack.com/i/jnlc8uj)Uploaded with ImageShack.com (http://imageshack.com)

(http://imageshack.com/a/img19/4088/iwej.jpg) (http://imageshack.com/i/0jiwejj)Uploaded with ImageShack.com (http://imageshack.com)

(http://imageshack.com/a/img32/5972/a6q0.png) (http://imageshack.com/i/0wa6q0p)Uploaded with ImageShack.com (http://imageshack.com)

(http://imageshack.com/a/img571/3788/cjta.jpg) (http://imageshack.com/i/fvcjtaj)Uploaded with ImageShack.com (http://imageshack.com)

(http://imageshack.com/a/img703/8255/nn8g.jpg) (http://imageshack.com/i/jjnn8gj)Uploaded with ImageShack.com (http://imageshack.com)
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: BritishShivans on November 14, 2013, 05:56:42 am
Oh, lovely job, here.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Enioch on November 14, 2013, 07:33:02 am
Hng.

I have no idea how you plan to unwrap / texture that, and I can only wish you good luck. I will be glad to see it released in 2024. [/pessimism]

Seriously though, excellent greebling.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on November 14, 2013, 08:13:53 am
Hng.

I have no idea how you plan to unwrap / texture that, and I can only wish you good luck. I will be glad to see it released in 2024. [/pessimism]

Seriously though, excellent greebling.

Know what? Neither do I have an idea how to unwrap it... but anyway I think that I can make it by december 2023... :p
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: rhettro on November 14, 2013, 08:54:56 am
Really nice design. In the future if you up the level of ray tracing samples in the Cycles rendering engine, it will take away that grainy look.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on November 14, 2013, 02:41:00 pm
good tip, thanks!
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: The Dagger on November 14, 2013, 03:12:01 pm
I really love the details but I'm worried on the polycount. How much tris does your model have?
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on November 14, 2013, 03:24:20 pm
ehm... 225000...  :nervous:
Anyway you can read the polycount on the screenshot itself: in the upper side there is a gray bar, by the center of which there's the counter. But I'm planning to re-design those railguns under the plates: each couple is over 4000 faces...
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: The Dagger on November 14, 2013, 03:39:35 pm
Ouch... Nice work though.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Nyctaeus on November 14, 2013, 06:34:42 pm
IMHO it doesn't look like for 225k polys. Most of the polys are hidden in turrets and detail clusters, while most of the hull is empty. It makes very big imparity between. As for the turrets, spending 2/3 of the ship polys for small parts like turrets doesn't make any sense at all, as most of these polys are unnotibacle ingame, but have very big impact on engine. I think there is tremendous waste of polys in the model. On the other side I appreciate all of the pretty details you've made here. I see your skills incrased :yes:
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Droid803 on November 14, 2013, 06:57:08 pm
Detail is great, looks great too...if you're making a render model. Some of it is kind of unnecessary for a game model, especially if it gets in the way of mapping.

I cannot advise in the slightest modelling super-detail that you have no idea how to actually UVmap or texture. The median outcome of that is a model that's never finished, aka. worthless waste of effort. That happens too much.

Then again this is all coming from a noskill-lowpoly n00bmodeller so take it with a grain of salt. Some people certainly do pull of beautiful detailed models, and UVmap them, which I find mind-boggling!
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on November 14, 2013, 08:04:43 pm
I checked it out: the problem is the curvy elements, not the greebling itself. Hitting "limited dissolve" just kills half the polys, but I'm not confident in proceeding that way, because I think it could cause problems during the unwrapping phase. I'll try to replace all those pipes with someting else. Thus, Betrayal is right about the main body's poly count: it's 20k actually.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Droid803 on November 14, 2013, 08:10:27 pm
you could probably just replace the cylinders that make up the smaller pipes with cylinders that have fewer sides.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Shivan Hunter on November 14, 2013, 08:40:15 pm
I haven't followed this very closely, which was a mistake as that is an amazing model. It's heavy and angular, yet sleek- like a cross between UEF design and Esarai's fleet, maybe an advanced Fedayeen prototype.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: BritishShivans on November 14, 2013, 11:43:51 pm
I imagined it as some kind of advanced Fedayeen prototype too, maybe a potential future flagship, even. That's what I love the most about this model - it's a major departure from the usual UEF aesthetics, but adheres to it in this way that you can easily think of it as being a UEF ship, but without bringing up the usual i.e Karunas, Narayanas, etc.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on November 15, 2013, 02:55:35 am
yes, it is meant to be an advance prototype: its foward beam cannon is absolutely a new technology for UEF.

you could probably just replace the cylinders that make up the smaller pipes with cylinders that have fewer sides.

Well, IMHO the problem is the fact that they have to be heavily facetted if you want them to warp smoothly. A straight cylinder is composed, at worse, by 32 facets. But a warped cylinder is made of over 500 facets. So, firstly I'll try to manually remove unnecessary polys from those straight sections which don't need them. In the case it's not sufficient I'll try to simplify the shape... I let you know...
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Phantom Hoover on November 15, 2013, 05:41:21 am
I admittedly know nothing about modelling, but I agree with Droid that it seems like there's a risk here that your reach will exceed your grasp and you'll end up with a gorgeous model you can't texture. All this extra detail does add a lot to the basic model you had; but not as much as textures would. I don't know, could you consider setting the detailed version aside (for now, at least) and working on maps for something more manageable?
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on November 15, 2013, 07:34:55 am
I was considering that option too. Moreover I think that some of those details can be successfully baked into textures. Anyway, I deleted half of the warped elements by now, and this killed about 50k tris without noticeably altering the model.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: majorvader111 on November 15, 2013, 07:49:54 pm
ehm... 225000...  :nervous:
Anyway you can read the polycount on the screenshot itself: in the upper side there is a gray bar, by the center of which there's the counter. But I'm planning to re-design those railguns under the plates: each couple is over 4000 faces...

Hell  :shaking: theres not way this is going into freespace blueplanet at war, sins has a 40000 triangle limit.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: MatthTheGeek on November 16, 2013, 01:52:28 am
Hell  :shaking: theres not way this is going into freespace blueplanet at war, sins has a 40000 triangle limit.
How did you even Solaris
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: An4ximandros on November 16, 2013, 02:55:57 am
Le modèle en Sins n'est pas un Solaris...


This ship suffers of the same problem Esarai's ship's reactor does: The amount of polygons, IS TOO DAM HIGH!

You have to start getting along with the idea of 5 ~ 6 sided tubes. Unless it's a unique piece that really demands attention (Ex: a SJ's Claw), using that many polies is bad for optimization and adds more texture/UVW work, as well as making the thing a 'memory-vore'. Textures and Gouraud shading can do wonders when done right.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: majorvader111 on November 16, 2013, 06:22:16 am
Hell  :shaking: theres not way this is going into freespace blueplanet at war, sins has a 40000 triangle limit.
How did you even Solaris

though heaps of magic optimizing  :D
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: fightermedic on November 16, 2013, 06:29:27 am
the decimate modifier is your friend, it has an option to auto reduce polys,  in your case, the option to merge faces with angles lower than 5% might be a good idea
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on November 16, 2013, 07:51:37 am
Hell  :shaking: theres not way this is going into freespace blueplanet at war, sins has a 40000 triangle limit.
But... esarai's Murugan is over 80000 faces. Are you saying it could not been in BP too?

the decimate modifier is your friend, it has an option to auto reduce polys,  in your case, the option to merge faces with angles lower than 5% might be a good idea
Do you mean the "limited dissolve" command in blender? I am a bit reluctant to use it, because it seems to cause facet distortion. But yes, it kills half the polys...
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: fightermedic on November 16, 2013, 08:16:23 am
i'm talking about the decimate modifier, it's labeled ecatly like that
check the "Generate" section in the modifiers panel
it doesn't work super well when you have a lot of different materials assigned, that should not be distorted too much, but i don't think this is the case here, is it?
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: majorvader111 on November 16, 2013, 05:18:15 pm
Hell  :shaking: theres not way this is going into freespace blueplanet at war, sins has a 40000 triangle limit.
But... esarai's Murugan is over 80000 faces. Are you saying it could not been in BP too?

No i got that in too with heaps of magic optimizing too
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on November 17, 2013, 12:14:59 pm
Wait a second! I didn't realize that BP at war was the Sins of a solar empire mod! Is there the 40000 polys limit also in BP act 4-5 for Freespace?
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Dragon on November 17, 2013, 12:26:43 pm
Nope, he's talking about FSBPAW. There's no poly limit in BP, so you might see some really computer-melting models in there. :)
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: majorvader111 on November 17, 2013, 08:59:14 pm
Wait a second! I didn't realize that BP at war was the Sins of a solar empire mod! Is there the 40000 polys limit also in BP act 4-5 for Freespace?

Woops looks like i forgot to tell you that  ;)
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on January 05, 2014, 01:01:25 pm
HEEEERE I am again with a MAJOR UPDATE! The modelling phase is finished! The beast is ready to be textured, so pray for me: I'll be going through another hell!
Now, I've managed to reduce the policount to 60000 polys. In order to do this I replaced the main railguns with new ones and I reduced their number to 4 (8 was excessive). I'm very happy with this new version because they feel different from ordinary cannon-like railguns. Moreover, the upper fore side has been completelly reworked to obtain a more regular and rational shape.
I also expanded the fore hangar entrance and simplified the inner hangar structure; the doors are still missing but I was eager to submit this update after such a long time.
So here some shots, enjoy!

PS: I didn't choose a name for it yet, so advices are welcome!

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/600/dtt7.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/godtt7j)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/577/ohvo.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/g1ohvoj)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/163/uv16.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/4juv16j)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/843/9xlk.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/nf9xlkj)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/844/snqx.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/ngsnqxj)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/829/gusu.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/n1gusuj)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/46/6pzg.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/1a6pzgj)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/132/0ndy.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/3o0ndyj)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/853/gvc3.png) (https://imageshack.com/i/npgvc3p)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/18/fsxp.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/0ifsxpj)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/834/wg3h.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/n6wg3hj)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/839/y49q.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/nby49qj)
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Mobius on January 05, 2014, 02:14:58 pm
Longinus? :)
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Phantom Hoover on January 05, 2014, 02:45:15 pm
Numinit.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: fightermedic on January 05, 2014, 02:54:44 pm
congratulations, it is looking very very awesome
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: An4ximandros on January 05, 2014, 04:08:15 pm
Nice ship. (I bet you are getting tired of me saying slight variants of that phrase. :P)

As for a name, how about Ekajaṭā (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekajati)?
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on January 05, 2014, 04:18:21 pm
Nice ship. (I bet you are getting tired of me saying slight variants of that phrase. :P)

As for a name, how about Ekajaṭā (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekajati)?

No no, continue please!!  :D
The name sounds awfully but the description on the wiki appeals to me very much...
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: niffiwan on January 05, 2014, 08:24:57 pm
wow.  That looks awesome  :yes:

(and I can't think of any names that'll do it justice right now...)
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Rampage on January 05, 2014, 09:19:06 pm
If you want to keep in line w/ the UEF feel, then anything Indic should sound good.  I personally suggest Vijaya (Sanskrit for "victorious").

R
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: DahBlount on January 05, 2014, 11:21:50 pm
For a name how about Rudra? Rudra is a Rigvedic god of Storms and the Hunt.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Shivan Hunter on January 06, 2014, 12:18:04 am
There's no poly limit in BP

Bumping this discussion to note: I recently ran into a 64k vertex (not poly) limit per subobject. If you have a subobject that's over 64k vertices, you'll need to split it up or remove some detail for it to work in FS.

Clarification: the vertex count you'll see in Blender/Wings/etc is lower than the number that will exist in the POF, because of vertices being split into smoothgroups. Basically, for every hard edge that a vertex is a part of, that vertex will be duplicated.

Non-clarification: when bugging people about this on IRC I was told the limit is "64k". Not sure what it is exactly, be it 64000, 65536, 65535 or some other number. I kept my subobjects below 64000 to be safe.

ON (a recent) topic: This is an excellent model! Slight criticism: Some of those turrets near the center look like they wouldn't be able to pivot fully. In any case, it has an excellent aesthetic that isn't very common in FS, and I'm looking forward to seeing what you do with textures!
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: asyikarea51 on January 06, 2014, 06:41:20 am
It reminds me of a Shivan ship for some reason... maybe it's the camera angles. I literally did a triple take on the pictures before I realised it was a Terran design...
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on January 06, 2014, 09:35:55 am
It reminds me of a Shivan ship for some reason... maybe it's the camera angles. I literally did a triple take on the pictures before I realised it was a Terran design...

Actually, I had this feeling too in the middle of the modelling phase. But I decided to follow that direction since I think it's pretty consistant with the BP's storyline.
Spoiler:
Since Fedayeen are "controlling" a Shivan specimen, I'd fancy that this ship's blueprints was developed largely using its fast computing intelligence and its knowledge. If the expertise acquired on TEV's technology after the seizure of Agincourt was taken into account, the overall result would be something like this ship. This is the best of both worlds!
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: esarai on January 06, 2014, 04:01:08 pm
Holy balls that's amazing.  Texture it.  Texture it NOW.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Spoon on January 06, 2014, 04:33:42 pm
That looks really sweet
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: esarai on January 06, 2014, 05:05:26 pm
Also, I must say this thing looks quite like a stealth frigate.  I know that's virtually impossible in space, but it just screams stealth.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: An4ximandros on January 06, 2014, 05:31:29 pm
We can always blame Shivan shenanigans and subspace quantum plot foam. :p
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on January 06, 2014, 05:32:29 pm
Also, I must say this thing looks quite like a stealth frigate.  I know that's virtually impossible in space, but it just screams stealth.

It is intended to be also stealth, or better, to have a heavy electronic warfare suite... remind me to add anti-radiation coffee dispensers inside the hangar bay too...  :D

Man, I've finished to draft my graduation thesis in law 10 min ago... my brain is laying on the floor right now! But I'm very excited about it!  :bump:
Aside from jokes, I think I'll be very busy next weeks and I have to go through the tutorial again, because I need to learn texturing from zero. It'll take a while...  ;)
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Phantom Hoover on January 06, 2014, 05:50:52 pm
I know that's virtually impossible in space, but it just screams stealth.

other things impossible in space: everything in freespace
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: An4ximandros on January 06, 2014, 05:56:02 pm
My only concern is it not replacing the Narayana Masyaf if it gets picked up by BP...

I doubt it would happen but... ya know.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Nyctaeus on January 06, 2014, 05:57:45 pm
You can always use tiles/parts of other textures and than bake them all into single texture. Despite the method of texturing U will use, I wonder if that detailed model should use one texture, as the polycount is pretty high. I think it should use 2-3 2048x2048px maps or one single 4096x4096px texture.

Wish you luck. You will need it, as it will be somekind of horror to make uvmapp for this :P
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on January 06, 2014, 06:42:38 pm
My only concern is it not replacing the Narayana Masyaf if it gets picked up by BP...

I doubt it would happen but... ya know.

I never thought that it could replace Narayana: I don't want that Shivan scum to drive my ship! :p I thought it could be usefull as deus-ex-machina, just in case UEF forces are overwelmed by TEVs. Anyway I'm aware it's likely BP team doesn't pick it up for the last parts, since maybe it would need too much plot adjusting. At least I hope that someone would eventually use it somewhere else.

You can always use tiles/parts of other textures and than bake them all into single texture. Despite the method of texturing U will use, I wonder if that detailed model should use one texture, as the polycount is pretty high. I think it should use 2-3 2048x2048px maps or one single 4096x4096px texture.

Wish you luck. You will need it, as it will be somekind of horror to make uvmapp for this :P

I don't remeber which method was better, if 2-3x 2048x2048 or a single 4096x4096. I recenly had a look at vexor and it should sport 3x2048...

Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: esarai on January 06, 2014, 07:09:12 pm
Both ways work well, just some GPUs can't handle the 4098s and will hate you for it.  As far as appearance goes, make sure it has uniform pixel density.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Mito [PL] on January 07, 2014, 07:43:56 am
 :nod: :nod: :nod:
Maybe Thanatos?
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on February 02, 2014, 06:44:50 am
Here some pictures that illustrate the direction I'm following. The dark parts are heavy armored plates. I added some physical plates too like the ones you see on the bow... unwrapping is now at 70% more or less.

(http://imageshack.com/a/img543/732/0t51.jpg)

(http://imageshack.com/a/img30/457/bjxt.jpg)

(http://imageshack.com/a/img197/3530/q3n0.jpg)
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: General Battuta on February 02, 2014, 08:29:13 am
Gorgeous.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: The Dagger on February 02, 2014, 08:50:30 am
Gorgeous.

+1  :yes:
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on February 03, 2014, 02:06:21 pm
This looks utterly amazing. Can't wait to see it finished!
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: cahdoge on February 06, 2014, 11:42:22 am
A very beautiful ship!  :yes: :yes: :yes:
how about naming it Phobetor.
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobetor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobetor)
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: fightermedic on February 06, 2014, 01:47:27 pm
here is a normal map for the panels texture, if you want to use it:


[attachment deleted by an evil time traveler]
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Phantom Hoover on February 06, 2014, 01:53:12 pm
not a fan, i'd prefer a clean, sleek, 'ceramic' look to those plates, like whitearrow is doing right now
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on February 07, 2014, 05:12:01 am
A very beautiful ship!  :yes: :yes: :yes:
how about naming it Phobetor.
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobetor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobetor)

thanks! I think Phobetor is too close to Erebus, which is actually a GTVA ship...
here is a normal map for the panels texture, if you want to use it:

thank you Fightermedic! Did you already use that texture?
not a fan, i'd prefer a clean, sleek, 'ceramic' look to those plates, like whitearrow is doing right now
yes, I initially preferred that too, but since this ship has been built also to endure tev's beams salvos I thought it must those plates...
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: An4ximandros on February 07, 2014, 05:17:35 am
While I love the current clean ceramic look, I'd not hold it against you if you decided to split the hull panels into segments. It's your work after all.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Luis Dias on February 07, 2014, 05:34:27 am
I would. The ship is already with a good chunck of fragmented geometry the last thing it needs is further fragmentation with plate normal mapping.

Please don't. The ship is magnificent as is already. Do the "lets detail every single pixel" mentality in the under parts and everything that is not already "plated". It's not as if the ship is anywhere near tactical feasability - I mean it has Wings! increasing its profile for better shooting at it with no clear upside to it!

Doesn't mean I don't love it. Because I do. It's beautiful.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: wistler on February 07, 2014, 06:09:26 am
Any chance you can tell me how to get my hands on that sexy skybox?

Love the ship design as well!
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on February 07, 2014, 08:05:36 am
Any chance you can tell me how to get my hands on that sexy skybox?

Love the ship design as well!

It's not a skybox, just a high res image. I took the pictures from certain angles to hide the seam....
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on February 07, 2014, 08:18:36 am
here's a link, but I didn't dowload it from there.... I got it somewhere else, but I don't remember where precisely. And since I've gone through a clean installation procedure I lost it...
http://foundwalls.com/space-earth-orbit-iss-sun/ (http://foundwalls.com/space-earth-orbit-iss-sun/)
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: fightermedic on February 07, 2014, 08:41:48 am
thank you Fightermedic! Did you already use that texture?
i've used it on some of my lego ships in different color, so i figured i can as well post the normal in case you wanted to use one, and save you some time :)
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on February 07, 2014, 09:27:59 am
thank you Fightermedic! Did you already use that texture?
i've used it on some of my lego ships in different color, so i figured i can as well post the normal in case you wanted to use one, and save you some time :)
Actually I used it just to have some kind of regular geometry shape that could also give the general idea of spaceship panelling. I don't know whether I'm going to use it on the definitive version. Thanks again anyway.

I would. The ship is already with a good chunck of fragmented geometry the last thing it needs is further fragmentation with plate normal mapping.

Please don't. The ship is magnificent as is already. Do the "lets detail every single pixel" mentality in the under parts and everything that is not already "plated". It's not as if the ship is anywhere near tactical feasability - I mean it has Wings! increasing its profile for better shooting at it with no clear upside to it!

Doesn't mean I don't love it. Because I do. It's beautiful.
I see your point Luis. Should the community ask for a clean version, without plates, I'll consider releasing it too...
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Black Wolf on February 07, 2014, 08:34:12 pm
If it's a UEF ship, then this Wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrathful_deities) might give you some ideas for names. Perhaps Lokapala (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lokapala) (Guardian of the World)?
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Husker on February 07, 2014, 10:37:15 pm
I googled goddesses of the hunt, and came up with UEFg Devana. Don't know what you'll end up with, though. Whatever it is, I'm sure it'll befit the amazing model it will be attached to.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: An4ximandros on February 08, 2014, 02:00:12 am
If you are still looking for names, whitearrow, I came across this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antarah_ibn_Shaddad
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on February 08, 2014, 09:18:46 am
I would. The ship is already with a good chunck of fragmented geometry the last thing it needs is further fragmentation with plate normal mapping.

Please don't. The ship is magnificent as is already. Do the "lets detail every single pixel" mentality in the under parts and everything that is not already "plated". It's not as if the ship is anywhere near tactical feasability - I mean it has Wings! increasing its profile for better shooting at it with no clear upside to it!

Doesn't mean I don't love it. Because I do. It's beautiful.



ON WINGS: IMHO, wings have some tactical advantages.
1) They reduce the angle from which vital structures can be attacked. I mean, let's suppose that the attacking ship is over the frigate: even if it moves to the frigate's flank it won't be able to shoot directly t the frigate's main engine. Wings work like a sort of shield.
2) The wide surface of wings may be useful to dissipate the heat caused by a beam shot.
3) The fact that it would increase the profile for better shooting is a non-issue. I don't think that having wings or not would make any difference against a late 24th century targeting system, which has to fire at a 2km long thing. A WW2 gunner was able to hit a 200m target at a distance of 10 km with rough sea... manually! (i.e. without computerized firing control)
4) The frigate's bow will be aiming directly to the target for the most of time in order to fire the main weapons. The wings frontal profile is so small that becomes irrelevant. Wings would be targetable at close distance, but this a ship that is not supposed to fight at close range...
5) Wings are cool!!! That's tactical too in FS2! :p
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: cahdoge on February 09, 2014, 10:44:17 am
How a name out of Nordic mythology
Víðarr also Vidar or Vitharr.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%AD%C3%B0arr
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on February 09, 2014, 12:46:48 pm
For now I'm considering the names "Brahmaputra" (an Indian river) and "Ignis" (fire in Latin)...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmaputra_River (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmaputra_River)
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Crybertrance on February 09, 2014, 01:01:51 pm
+1 for Brahmaputra

mostly cuz im Indian :p
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Col.Hornet on February 09, 2014, 02:52:21 pm
Ignis sounds better. "Fire" is a good name for a huge combat warship. (and I guess that that ship will be able to unleash a lot of it)

Brahmaputhra is too long and sounds less "combat like" xD.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Aardwolf on February 09, 2014, 04:01:41 pm
Or Agni! (Hindu god of fire, IIRC)
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: General Battuta on February 09, 2014, 06:42:08 pm
Agni's quite good. Ignis feels a bit close to just naming the ship 'fire'.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: crizza on February 09, 2014, 06:52:51 pm
Aquila Ignis maybe?
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: cahdoge on February 10, 2014, 11:12:43 am
But Aquila is a command ship of the GTVA.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: crizza on February 10, 2014, 11:25:55 am
But Aquila is a command ship of the GTVA.
Uh, what?
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Shivan Hunter on February 10, 2014, 12:12:59 pm
It certainly isn't in FS2, and I don't recognize it from BP (since whitearrow is looking for BP naming schemes) either.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on February 10, 2014, 12:15:12 pm
Aquila is, however, used as a wing name in BP (as it is the name of a constellation).
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Fury on February 10, 2014, 12:42:39 pm
He is probably mistaking it for Aquitaine.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Colonol Dekker on February 10, 2014, 02:05:25 pm
I reckon he is.
Latin for eagle.

Why not some sort of despair / apocalypse related name?
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on February 10, 2014, 08:14:51 pm
I was thinking also to "Concordia Sagittaria". Actually it's a small but ancient town in northeastern part of Italy. It was founded in 42 BC as "Iulia Concordia"; it was an outpost built in order to  strengthen the Romans' penetration into Gallia Cisalpina. For FS2 purposes I would reinterpret its name in this way:
"Concordia" in reference to the UEF desire for ending the war and rebuilding their worlds according to the Ubuntu philosophy.
"Sagittaria" in reference to the ship's huge beam cannon. "Sagittaria" here is in adjective position and I would translate it into "which carries arrows".
So in the end, peace through war (represented by the arrow as a weapon). It's an oxymoron that underlines the fact that this class of ships has been designed expressly for aggression and destruction, that are at the very other end in respect to the doctrine of Ubuntu. This ship is actually a painful but necessary betrayal of the main ideal of the new Terran way of living...
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: cahdoge on February 11, 2014, 11:45:35 am
 :banghead: Fury is right.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: cahdoge on February 11, 2014, 11:51:49 am
Aquila is the name of Connor Kennwa's Ship.
Frigate                 (check)
heavy armed       (check)
fast                      ((check))
small                    (        )
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: cahdoge on February 11, 2014, 11:52:28 am
sorry "Kennway's"
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: The E on February 11, 2014, 11:54:23 am
You know that you can edit your own posts, right? No need for double- or tripleposting.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: StarSlayer on February 11, 2014, 12:29:15 pm
Nice ship, I'd imagined the Lynx from the Risen Empire Series looking something similar.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: TheGardinator on June 11, 2016, 01:41:55 pm
Uh, finally some progress on the texture. Me likes! :)  :yes:
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: LaineyBugsDaddy on June 14, 2016, 01:17:54 pm
I know some folks say they see Shivan lines to the ship, but the way the armor plates are, I see more Vasudan influence.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on June 20, 2016, 02:52:55 pm
Uh, finally some progress on the texture. Me likes! :)  :yes:
Well this texture has existed for long time. The problem is that I cannot manage to export it into PCS2. I am kinda stuck there...
I know some folks say they see Shivan lines to the ship, but the way the armor plates are, I see more Vasudan influence.
It's Shivans... I have never thought about Vasudans for this ship, but I am glad that my design suits to more than one interpretation!
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Droid803 on June 20, 2016, 03:00:48 pm
What difficulties are you having with exporting?
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on June 21, 2016, 05:43:41 am
Well, I used multiple UV maps in the beginning, but now actually I have one map with more materials. This at least for the hull. So Export everything in Collada and try to load it in PCS2, but actually it does not load the textures...


[attachment DELETED!! by Strong Bad]
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: T-Man on June 21, 2016, 05:55:36 am
My memory has failed me, but I think this is an issue I ran into when I was doing a model years back. If I remember right (and assuming it's the same thing) it was to do with the texture names and it adding '_mat',  '_material' or something like that when it's exporting the texture data inside the DAE; I had to go into the DAE with notepad and remove that part from the end of every mention of a texture for it to recognise the textures when importing it into PCS.

I'm really sorry this isn't much help but wanted to at least offer something; hope it's the right track. I could be completely wrong so best try anything like this on a separate save (this model is beautiful and I would hate to be the one that killed it). Will keep looking and if I find any solid info will be sure to send it over (I think I found this out from someone telling me about it; haven't found a mention of it in the wiki tutorials so far).

EDIT: Another possibility separate to above, I ran into this old topic (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=83224.msg1662258#msg1662258) where Shadowwolf was having similar-sounding issues and it sounds like the advice Black Wolf gives him at the top solves it. Any help?
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on March 01, 2017, 07:15:02 pm
Crafting a new skin for the beast!

(https://s2.postimg.org/ci55icgfp/frigate46_hi_res_11_1.png) (https://postimg.org/image/ci55icgfp/)

(https://s2.postimg.org/ikcs8u4vp/frigate46_hi_res_11_2.png) (https://postimg.org/image/ikcs8u4vp/)

(https://s2.postimg.org/ozbt5iblh/frigate46_hi_res_11_3.png) (https://postimg.org/image/ozbt5iblh/)
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: esarai on August 22, 2017, 04:14:29 pm
Necrothreadaging be damned, I've been gone for a few months and I come back to mad surface details that are blowing my mind.

Epic work.
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: whitearrow on September 07, 2017, 03:36:48 pm
Thanks!
It's a shame that I am stuck... I need to understand well how to bake textures, normal maps etc., because every detail you see there is real polys, nothing's faked... I don't understand even if I can actually bake something from this model... 
Title: Re: New heavy frigate
Post by: Colonol Dekker on September 08, 2017, 07:53:15 am
Have you checked YouTube for bids on your software of choice?