Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Rictor on January 05, 2007, 06:39:50 pm
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http://www.pcgamerpodcast.com/
Listen to the newest podcast for PCGamer magazine (Episode 65), about halfway through they talk about Wing Commander Saga for SCP.
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They call it an average game/mod, too. :(
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They call it an average game/mod, too. :(
SACRILEGE! BURN THEM ALL! :mad2: :mad: :hopping:
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Well, it is the PCG podcast.. Seriously, they got their heads so far up their asses (with the exception of Gaz and Jerey) in regards to gaming, their opinions are almost worthless. If you want a good PC gaming podcast that dosen't suck the cock of the PC like the PCG guys do, do yourself a favor and go listen to the GFW (http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3148397) podcast
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They call it an average game/mod, too. :(
I think they were actually pretty fair. The models in WCS aren't of the quality of a modern commercial game. It's not bad for them to say so. The Saga team were obviously more interested in making ships that reminded them of the original than delaying the mod in order to make HTL versions of everything.
The result is that the game has a retro feel which isn't necessarily bad.
BTW they mention WCS at around the 22 minute mark.
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I don't recall the saga team mentioning that they had any plans to upgrade the textures either.
Hmm, does this open the door to the WCS Upgrade Project?
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Well, it is the PCG podcast.. Seriously, they got their heads so far up their asses (with the exception of Gaz and Jerey) in regards to gaming, their opinions are almost worthless. If you want a good PC gaming podcast that dosen't suck the cock of the PC like the PCG guys do, do yourself a favor and go listen to the GFW (http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3148397) podcast
Who pissed in your cheerios? Are they involved in like human sacrifices or something that I'm not aware of? It's a nice podcast, I listen to it every week.
...or has Bill Gates paid you to pimp the GFA podcast? Huh, is that it? Is it? Aha, I knew it! We've got another corporate shill, quick admins, ban him!
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lol
The PC Gamer cast is not that good. I'm sorry... Their boring, uncharismatic, and a very run-of-the-mill podcast. Now, I listen to them every week as well, if only to get their take on the weeks news, and to hear Gaz take them to task on their utter ignorance about other realms of gaming. Again, the GFW podcast is worlds better, but if you want the best podcast out there, consoles and PC, go listen to 1 Up Yours.
And, to be perfectly honest, I have always preferred CGW/GFW over PCG anyways. The writing, art direction, staff, and overall professionalism from CGW always attracted me, as opposed to the fanboy-centric views of PC Gamer.
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Seconded. CGW is the way to go for PC Gaming, even if they do have a bass ackwards review system now.
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Hmm, I see. I shall form an exploratory commitee to consider these other podcasts, and report their findings at the earliest possible date.
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They didn't really know much about WCS.
Guy one: "So which Wing Commander game is it based on?"
Guy two "Ah... Uhmm... I think..."
@Karajorma
Yeah, the models can't compete with modern games. WCS isn't the most adanced FS2 mod, but it has all the nice Wing Commander features.
I think some of the models are are pretty old already and were made for slower PCs.
But which mod in-progress isn't making the same 'mistake'? ;)
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Ermm... the Galactica mod?
...and BWO is trying to fix that mistake... really we are ;)
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Heh, as I've said several times before, the HTL Engine may have been a blessing to Modders, but it threw a lot of campaigns into a whirl, WCS, like the B5 Mod have been around for ages, remember that they were at Sectorgame for a good long time before making the move to HLP, so many of these models could be around 4 years old. I Think WCS went for a full experience rather than focussing on 'super shiny ships' etc, so whilst everything is not up to the 'latest' quality, there is a complete experience in there.
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Besides, model detail is one of the secondary factors for how enjoyable a mod is. And I actually kinda like how the models look the way I remember them - Shinier, crisper, but it's still the same ships I know and love. That has its charm :) And if the full mod is still a couple of years away, then bumpmapping can go a long way towards improving percieved model detail without actually changing any models.
Those PCG people had no clue what they were talking about though. They eventually seemed to settle on it being a remake of WC1 through 4 :p They probably just recieved a link to the website and decided to pontificate a bit based on that without actually reading much or trying the prologue.
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It sounds like they played it. The only thing I was disappointed in was that rather than reviewing the Saga in detail, they spent about 3 minutes on it and moved to discussing reviving old game franchises. A little more exposure would have been nice, IMO.
Still, it's nice for the community to get some exposure at least :)
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Yeah, the models can't compete with modern games. WCS isn't the most adanced FS2 mod, but it has all the nice Wing Commander features.
I think some of the models are are pretty old already and were made for slower PCs.
Oh I know that their models are old and that's why they're low poly. I don't particularly care :) Once the game is out they can hi-poly everything if they wish. Better to get the game out first so that people can play it.
Heh, as I've said several times before, the HTL Engine may have been a blessing to Modders, but it threw a lot of campaigns into a whirl, WCS, like the B5 Mod have been around for ages, remember that they were at Sectorgame for a good long time before making the move to HLP, so many of these models could be around 4 years old. I Think WCS went for a full experience rather than focussing on 'super shiny ships' etc, so whilst everything is not up to the 'latest' quality, there is a complete experience in there.
Exactly. When the SCP came along campaigns had to make a choice. Delay release and hi-poly everything, carry on as you were or improve anything new while keeping the old stuff. Very few people chose the 3rd as it would look kinda strange. :)
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Well i've tried to poly bumping some of the models, although most you haven't seen and those that you have are limited to the original design. After the game is released then we can have fun :lol:
Now my own models, thats a whole nother ballgame, I'm not limited to existing canon, course I have nothing on campaigns or even missions :P
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Have you got any plans to release your stuff as a WCS mod? Cause I think that might be a pretty good way of handling it. It would greatly reduce your development time and I'm sure there are some fans who would like to use them and haven't spotted your threads in FS modding.
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Why would they want to spend more than 3 minutes on it? It's just a 4 mission prologue, after all - a very well executed one I know - but only a representative sample and not the finished product. There's not that much to talk about!
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Have you got any plans to release your stuff as a WCS mod? Cause I think that might be a pretty good way of handling it. It would greatly reduce your development time and I'm sure there are some fans who would like to use them and haven't spotted your threads in FS modding.
Already in the works karajorma. The fighters are done, now I'm just bring the capships up to spec. There are some major differences though... mostly that I use real size specs and Saga is forced to use WC sized specs (capship scale is different than fighter).
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Here are my 2 cents. :) I really don't understand all the hipe that our models are so incredibly low poly.
We are trying to make some upgrades on the models and attach subtile details like engines, turrets, hangarstuff and a few modifications to the outer hull. But if we plug the hull full of greebling, we will distinguish the models from their original look that we are trying to keep. Not to mention, that a lot of these subtile highpoly stuff isn't really visible in intensive battles. We have to satisfy two groups of people. New ones to attrack them to the game, and the "older" group that seek the nostalgic feeling and want to came across something similar. so we have to find the way between the two :)
Even more important, the main release will have even bigger battles with lots of fighters and capships, and making them any higher poly will certainly have a negative aspect on performance, since there are much more people with crappy systems out there that I had imagined.
I.e. our kilrathi cruiser comes with 6000 polygons, 4400 if I remove the hangarstuff (while 1500 are in the turrets). That's certainly not highpoly, but I think it's enough for a good gameplay and a good look. Of course Bobboaus detail box code is a great addition, but it will require quite some extra work for a little "Oh-Effect" in my opinion, and we don't have the ressources for this extra work. Our plans for the main release are very big, and we will have to focus on more important stuff first. If then there is a possibility to improve the models, we will take it of course.
But like mentioned above, one reason why we took so long already, is that we always start working stuff all over again. New engine possibilities or our own experience growing are two of the reasons for that. That's a problem when a project takes as long as ours. Of course we could do a lot of stuff better, but when we want to get finished someday we will now have to continue with what we have achived with the prologue and make the rest in a similar lookout. I want to have some continuity in our model style, and that requires to forfeit some things, even if it sometimes hurt :(
For the moment, we are taking this sort of improvement, some ships a little more than that :
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,28932.msg590784.html#msg590784
Same goes for the textures, I like them, but they can be better (capships, our fighters are great IMO and very well detailed). But now we have started this style, and so we have to keep it if we don't want to rework everything again. Because of the UV-Maps we can't simply switch the textures, but I really hope that with bumpmapping or something similar we can improve the look a little more and add some more subtile details to the models when someday the release will be made.
@SadisticSid : It's a 10 mission prologue :)
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That makes perfect sense :yes:
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Ermm... the Galactica mod?
...and BWO is trying to fix that mistake... really we are ;)
BtRL has models that work fine on everything but total low-end. When we release the full version, those models won't be highly detailed compared to other games anymore.
And still... I think BtRL has the most detailed content of all FS2 mods. So what does that mean for the other mods? ;)
I don't know about BWO, but I doubt you guys made content that hardly worked well on your PCs when you started the mod.
@Starman01
I don't have a problem with that. WCS doesn't look bad and the models are very accurate copies of the originals.
It may take a while till the final release is ready. And by then, WCS should somewhat evolve.
I already miss proper support for env mapping. And I really hope you'll consider the use of normal mapping.
If WCS features good normal maps, less people will complain about low-polyness. ;)
I can write short tutorial for the env mapping part. It's not that hard. If we split up the work, we can do it in a few days I guess.
Plus the env map *can* be useful for normal map creation. Actually, that was one of my approaches to automatically generate normal maps for all FS2 ships and replace them later with 'proper' normal maps. One by one.
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I think BtRL has the most detailed content of all FS2 mods. So what does that mean for the other mods? ;)
It means, that you are bragging :)
I don't have a problem with that. WCS doesn't look bad and the models are very accurate copies of the originals.
It may take a while till the final release is ready. And by then, WCS should somewhat evolve.
I doubt that it will evolve modelwise. Our aim never was to create uber-models, extra large texture map. The primary aim was to keep the retro look and at the same time add subtile details. We will, of course, make use of bump/normal mapping, when it comes out. But we will not upgrade our models until the project is finished. Upgrading textures/models is an option after the main release.
I already miss proper support for env mapping. And I really hope you'll consider the use of normal mapping.
If WCS features good normal maps, less people will complain about low-polyness. ;)
It is of course an option. In any case, env mapping should only be applied to glass surfaces.
I can write short tutorial for the env mapping part. It's not that hard. If we split up the work, we can do it in a few days I guess.
Plus the env map *can* be useful for normal map creation. Actually, that was one of my approaches to automatically generate normal maps for all FS2 ships and replace them later with 'proper' normal maps. One by one.
That would be welcome :) Speaking on normal maps: I guess, there is no test build, where we could test how it might look like in the end.
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Low poly models?
Hmmmm
*whistles innocently and walks away* :drevil:
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That would be welcome :) Speaking on normal maps: I guess, there is no test build, where we could test how it might look like in the end.
Yes I would really like to see normal mapping supported, even if it's just a slow hack for the now (even though I couldn't use normal mapping on this video card) I have a reason for this request :)
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I'd like to see stencil shadows make a return...
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@SadisticSid : It's a 10 mission prologue :)
Sorry, I was mistaken. But of those 10, 3 are simple skirmishes, and 2 aren't part of the campaign - and they're hidden in the tech room to boot. So they probably missed them like I did!
Looking forward to the full thing very much BTW :yes:
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and they're hidden in the tech room to boot. So they probably missed them like I did!
That's indeed a very big problem that we have :( And still I'm not sure how we could have announced them differently, when even people that know Freespace miss them :(
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I think BtRL has the most detailed content of all FS2 mods. So what does that mean for the other mods? ;)
It means, that you are bragging :)
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Ah... don't pull that out of the context. BtRL isn't the only mod I work on. I'm (of course) more commited to my own project. I admit that BtRL has the best models though.
@Scooby game models are generally called 'low-poly models'. Render movies are using 'high-poly models'.
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I don't want WCSaga to have higher-poly models, but some of those ships desperately need better texturing. The transport comes to mind.
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And still... I think BtRL has the most detailed content of all FS2 mods. So what does that mean for the other mods? ;)
Of all TCs, maybe.......