Author Topic: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?  (Read 52002 times)

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Offline Mobius

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
The Knossos, though big, is still nothing compared to a Colossus. There's going to be a problem. I think the GTVA will have to build an immense specialized shipyard just where the Knossos is going to be built. Something like the Andromeda for the Icanus.

And:

1) It wouldn't be first time for GTVA scientists. They have been studying Ancient artifacts for over 30 years!

2) We have no canon info proving that the effectiveness of a Knossos depends on the material used to build it. The movement creates a subspace vortex, GTVA materials should be fine;
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Offline Kie99

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
According to the debrief of "A Flaming Sword" a new Knossos would take "Decades" to complete.
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
According to the brain of a human, a Knossos wouldn't take years to complete :P

Without considering the fact that even after "A Flaming Sword" there couldn't be enough info to build it and give an ETA.
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Offline Kie99

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
According to the brain of a human, a Knossos wouldn't take years to complete :P

Without considering the fact that even after "A Flaming Sword" there couldn't be enough info to build it and give an ETA.

I believe the exact quote was "A project of that magnitude would take decades to complete", so you're looking at a bare minimum of 20 years.  A Knossos is bloody enormous, 20 years is the best low end estimate we have.
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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Besides we all saw the Sathanas take out that hecate in under 5s in Bearbating.  What good would making more Hecate's do when the Colossus was really the only thing that could stand toe to toe with a Sathanas.  I think the  GTVA should build more Colossus' at least for the meantime while it works to develop better destroyers or super destroyers that can actually last against a Sathanas.
Perfect example, the Colossus is the only ship that can stand toe to toe against a sathanas. Why waste $$ and lives on ships that are inadiquate. Its like sending in 20 WW2 shermans against a modern Leopard 2, ur wasting your time/lives  :nervous:
We've also seen the Big 'C' get destroyed in a couple minutes...

In WW 2 terms:
If the Colossus was an equivilant of a Yamato, a Big 'C' mk 2 would probably be like the Super Yamato class the Japanese were designing.
So I want 2 Iowas and the USS Midway   :P

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Offline Mobius

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
I believe the exact quote was "A project of that magnitude would take decades to complete", so you're looking at a bare minimum of 20 years.  A Knossos is bloody enormous, 20 years is the best low end estimate we have.

A Knossos is bloody enormous? The shipyard would be enormous. The generators designed to power up that thing will be enormous. And they can't take 20 years. A Knossos means returning back to Sol, all Terrans would give their contribute!
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Offline Oddgrim

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
The construction of a new Knossos port shouldn't take too long in my opinion ( not as long as the collie )but the reverse engineering of the technologies used in the said portal would. Supposedly they where able to extract all of the needed data of it before command blowed it up in a big expensive fireworks show and just not bits and pieces of it.
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Correct. There are going to be problems in making the thing work, not building it. The Colossus was a secret project and needed 20 years. A Knossos would be different. All Terrans would give their contribute, come on...
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
According to the brain of a human, a Knossos wouldn't take years to complete :P

Without considering the fact that even after "A Flaming Sword" there couldn't be enough info to build it and give an ETA.

I believe the exact quote was "A project of that magnitude would take decades to complete", so you're looking at a bare minimum of 20 years.  A Knossos is bloody enormous, 20 years is the best low end estimate we have.

Petrach is giving a rough estimate, but that's not really his field. The scientists have to shuffle trough a lot of data so I guess the estimate wil lchange as time moves on, but looking at the mass/volume of the Knossos, it ain't that big. Each of the smaller parts is corvette sized, the bigger ones are twice as large. No problem for the GTVA shipyards to build those parts - it's prolyl that designing a terran jump gate that will take time..not the construction itslef.
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Offline Kie99

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
We have no reason to believe the Knossos would take less than 20 years, and every reason to think it would take that or longer.  Realy don't see where you're coming from saying it would take less than 10.
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Why you don't look at it and imagine the situation rather than remaining stuck on a line from the main campaign?
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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Why you don't look at it and imagine the situation rather than remaining stuck on a line from the main campaign?

The finances of the GTVA just got hit by losing Capella, the Colossus, 2 Orions loaded with expensive Meson bombs, most of the 3rd Terran Fleet and 13th Vasudan Battle Group, and now they have to take care of all the refugees.  Sounds like a limited budget for the Knossos, at least for the first years post-Capella.

They also need to rebuild Regulus, Polaris and Sirius because of the aftermath of the NTF rebellion, so that too will be a drain on resources.  The Knossos will cost quite some time and resources/manpower, and the first prototype will require far longer to complete because of fundamental & technical problems encountered in the process (the Colossus took over 20 years to build and it was the first of its kind, I'd say the same applies to the Knossos, even though the Knossos consists of less mass its still similar in complexity; how do you get those ring components to align & generate those interlocking movements needed for making a subspace vortex, what power source did the Anicents use to run it, and are the material compositions important to the process, and if so how easy are those elements to acquire?)

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
1) Again, don't overestimate the loss of Capella. There's no canon evidence of a terrible economical blow. You base your opinion on custom campaigns;

2) The Colossus' loss isn't an economical one;

3) The Bastion and the Nereid were two SCRAPPED Orionis = no loss;

4) The Meson bombs are expensive...but can they inflict a severe blow to GTVA's economy?

5) The fleets/battlegroups you mentioned can be easily disbanded. Their components can be reassigned to other fleets. This would reduce the "military impact" on a post Capella GTVA. It happened before in Terran history;

6) Rebuild Regulus, Polaris and Sirius? As far as I know, there haven't been planetary assaults. Without considering the marines mentioned in the first debriefing, we can assume that the NTF civil war was ebsentially a space conflict. I don't think there are "systems to rebuild". Their situation can't be compared, for example, to post WWII Germany, Italy and Japan;

7) The Colossus took 20 years because it was a supersecret project. Only a limited amount of money could have been diverted to the Colossus project. Remember that the post Great War GTA had serious political problems. Rather than spending "5" at once to build the Colossus, the GTVA spent "1" or "2". In a post Capella GTVA it would be possible to spend "5" or even more. Do you get my point?
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Offline Bob-san

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
No doubt in my mind--Capella was a major colony. Still, most of the people got out and still need somewhere to settle. I'd say they'd probably go to some outlying systems. Other then that, much of the military and civilian hardware got out of there (yes, heavy losses, but remember the 3rd Fleet and 13th Battlegroup were basically engaging Shivans all around Capella--they might have only had a few corvettes able to help you, but then again they rarely sortie anything bigger then a Corvette.

Next, you're right---the Colossus wasn't an economical loss, it was a huge morale loss. If the morale causes the GTVA to mourn and not continue working, that'll become quite the economical loss. Also, the loss of the finest ship in the entire GTVA took thousands of officers, crewmembers, and pilots--most of them are some of the best in the GTVA.

You're right--but how much was spent on bringing them out of mothballs that quickly? If they were scrapped, their turrets would be removed, subsystems reused, and basically everything torn out. Just think of what happens when the US Military sells a military craft? They basically tear it apart, making it nearly useless.

Meson bombs--they wouldn't make a big difference on the GTVA's economy because they were research programs.

The fleets and battlegroups would be reorganized, probably bring a few mothballed ships back into service until shipyards lost could be reestablished and more ships could be manufactured.

The NTF had to be including the planets--after all, they need resources and a base population to fuel their military. It would be nearly impossible if only rogues joined the NTF--the NTF simply had too people. Also note that NeoTerra was an ideal--to setup a new Terran capital in the Polaris system (always visible from Sol). Remember that Admiral Bosch "Gave the Lost Generation something to die for"--much like the generations of the 14 Years War and the Great War. That being said, I think it's safe to assume that at least 5% of Terrans (not including those that are possibly still in Sol) would be willing to join the NTF as part of the military. Even with those numbers, the NTF was made up mostly of die-hard young men and women and older officers who still distrust the Vasudans (surrounding the core of Bosch and his highest officers). The fact that NeoTerra was an ideal, the core systems of Polaris, Regulus, and Sirius all choose to join the NTF by popular choice (before some of their fleets were absorbed into the NTF), and the fact that the NTF had such support to do what it did says that they're a wider-spread problem and rebuilding will not be easy. The core systems would likely be fine economically, but severely injured socially and politically (after Bosch dies and they're seen as rebels). They won't be like WWII Germany, Italy, or Japan... they're more like Cold War USSR (untouched but society is injured and politics is changing again).
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
1) No doubt, Capella was an important colony...but most civilians were saved and there are plenties of "important colonies" in Terran-Vasudan space. It was a terrible blow, I agree, but considering the loss of Capella something that would have affected the GTVA for years and years...hell no.

2) Let me see...what should the rebel ground troops do in a planet surrounded by the GTVA? What if the GTVA forces the NTF to surrender...or be destroyed with a planetary bombardment?
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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
In WW 2 terms:
If the Colossus was an equivilant of a Yamato, a Big 'C' mk 2 would probably be like the Super Yamato class the Japanese were designing.
So I want 2 Iowas and the USS Midway   :P

I'm splitting hairs here, but this isn't really a fair comparison. The Yamoto only displaced 65000 tons to the Iowa's 45000, and despite Yamoto's greater firepower, the Iowa was a more sophisticated ship in many ways, and most people think it was overall a better ship.


P.S. Guess I'll have to learn making models and test my idea, because we could go on to infinity with the 'which would be better: 1 [email protected]$$ juggernaut or 2 smaller but still [email protected]$$ ships with a carrier and a small fleet of corvettes' discussion...

The issue is that you can't generate any kind of absolute value judgement because it totally depends on what kind of fight you're in and what kind of engagements you're expecting.  The problem with the Colossus isn't that it's a poorly thought out ship, it's that it isn't very versatile. The Colossus is a fleet-buster; You get your enemy to field an entire group of destroyers and escorts in one place and then the Colossus blasts right into the middile of their formation and engages them all simultaneously. This is why the C's primary guns are evenly distributed around its hull, and it really couldn't be better-designed for this sort of thing. Think about how easily the Colossus could have busted up the Shivan fleet in the Derelict campaign, for example? One Colossus against three destroyers and a dozen escorts is just what the C was built for, and it would have shredded them.

Overall, the Colossus is a much better ship than the Sathanas. Sath is a one-trick pony. If it can jump in on you and attack immediately, nothing can stand in its way. However, it depends pretty much absolutely on the element of surprise. The GTVA proved pretty conclusively that if you know where a Sathanas is, you can beat it down pretty easily by hitting it with fighters and bombers from the front and destroyers and corvettes from the flanks. A Colossus is a MUCH more able to defend itself against attacks of this kind.

(On an aside, it just occured to me that an NTF-centered campaign where you're trying to defend against/kill the Colossus would be pretty slick, has it been done?)

However, if your opponent isn't interested in concentrating his forces, the Colossus doesn't do such a good job. It's really only good at attacking or defending single points where a lot of force is being concentrated. If your opponent won't concentrate his force or commit his ships to pitched battle, then the Colossus becomes pretty useless. A post-Capella GTVA doesn't have any enemies around with big fleets, so they don't really have anybody to use a Colossus on. If there's enough paranoia about the Shivans coming back, then you'll see at least one or two new Colossus-class ships being built.

 

Offline Kie99

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Why you don't look at it and imagine the situation rather than remaining stuck on a line from the main campaign?

Its a fictional technology in a fictional universe for Christ's sake.  Any estimates we make are from an out of universe perspective, the estimates made by the fictional Vasudan are from in-universe, so why will you have a better idea than them?  The answer is that you won't.
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Mine is not a "canon VS not-canon" discussion, it's simply a "Don't trust entirely lines from the game, especially the ones coming from characters who don't have a clue on what they're talking about".
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Offline Kie99

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Whereas you do have a clue about how long it would take for the fictional GTVA to build a large fictional device.  The Vasudan Commander (at the bloke who wrote the debriefing for :v:) is infinitely more well informed than yourself.
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Why would you trust a Vasudan Commander who barely knows what the Terrans are capable of? A member of the military has no clue on space building. And we're talking about something able to reopen the SOL jump node, man!
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