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How should the GTVA proceed with cruisers post-Capella?

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CT27:

--- Quote from: Trivial Psychic on June 24, 2024, 06:05:26 pm ---It would be useful if a group of AWACS could effectively jam Shivan targeting sensors.  Just create a bunch of AWACS cruisers with enough anti-fighter coverage to protect themselves from swarm attacks by fighters, and have them run interference for the big-gun warships to engage the Sath from distance with their own beams.

--- End quote ---

I remember a single mission once where there was a GTVA ship that had a beam inhibitor device.  It was able to disable all beams on the battlefield (IOW while it would disable Shivan beams, it would also mean allied ships couldn't fire beams either).

Could something like that be an effective strategy against Sathani?  I.e., turn the device on, have a squad destroy the four primary beams on a Sathanas...then turn the device back off again?

BengalTiger:

--- Quote from: wuu on June 19, 2024, 12:05:14 pm ---
--- Quote from: Shivan Hunter on June 17, 2024, 10:13:44 pm ---post-Capella GTVA should be pouring money into military R&D and manufacturing out of sheer existential panic !!!

--- End quote ---

Using GTSG Mjolnir and building a cruiser around it but I think a Corvette makes more sense.
with its reactor core, you could use it as an auxiliary power when not in use to boost either engine, weapons, sensor, navi, well the sub-systems are built to handle the extra juice.


--- End quote ---

Well, a Deimos with one big beam instead of 4 medium ones would be feasible. The combined damage output of all 4 slashers is about 2/3 of a single Mjolnir, so some sacrifices would probably have to be made, but I think it's still safe to assume this ship would have enough defensive turrets to hold its own.

There would be one more issue - the whole ship has to get aimed exactly at the target, so a rather expensive and powerful drive system needs to be used (keep in mind the Mjolnir only shoots at full power when aimed straight down the turret's axis, if the beam is guided off center its power is decreased by a lot).

Thus the GTCv Mjolnir would not be an easy thing to build, but would in the end probably be much more effective than the Colossus, dollar for dollar (or whatever the FS universe currency is).


--- Quote from: Shivan Hunter on June 19, 2024, 02:14:10 pm ---I see a bit of a different evolution of the Mjolnir idea.

I have a few questions about Mjolnirs: since Mjolnirs can operate independently, shouldn't a ship that's just a cheap spaceframe with Mjolnirs strapped to it be devastating on the battlefield? Why can the Mjolnir, a sub-cruiser-size cannon, outclass destroyers in firepower? Why did the Colossus's heatsinks struggle so much, when Mjolnirs can output similar firepower with seemingly no such issues?
--- End quote ---

I think its heat sink is the rotating thingy - so really easy to put holes through it and make it stop working.
The turret has 2500 HP, compared to a Deimos at 80k.


--- Quote ---My headcanon/skul-gun: Mjolnirs are disposable, one-time-use beam platforms not meant for extended engagements. This is also why they're so lightly armored. They don't have a power generator that can sustain beam fire indefinitely - they have a battery that can support maybe a couple dozen shots. By the time it's done firing, the battery is empty, the heatsinks are fried, the beam cannon's innards are starting to melt, and the Mjolnir is a useless hunk of metal, but hopefully it's done its job. You wouldn't want this on a warship, but keep several of these in reserve to blockade a node on demand (also works well if your setting includes BP/BtA-style non-Newtonian node drift).
--- End quote ---

I don't think they're disposable, but actually high maintenance. They'd be placed in friendly territory before a battle and could be resupplied easily to keep them online until the battle.



--- Quote from: Nightmare on June 23, 2024, 10:35:36 am ---Re the Mjolnir, I have to admit I never really treated it as a "proper" ship given how much it deviates from the usuall firepower/size ratio. It probably shouldve been upscaled *2 at minimum to be more credible. The explination "it can fire 20 times before getting scrapped" is pretty good though.
--- End quote ---

I'd change "scrapped" for "resupplied".


--- Quote ---For cruisers, I dont really see much potential for them after Capella. The reason is that you have a limited damage absorbtion potential on a small ship. The Aeolus is extremely good at demolishing fighters and bombers, but even then, if there are too many waves (or just other cruisers arrive) it'll perish quickly. A Deimos has (or atleast could have) the same or an even better AAA loadout while not suffering these backdraws. You could also just mount more armor on a cruiser for the same durability, but it'll likely much slower then. So in a way, the Deimos or a similar vehicle is the kind of cruiser you want - the rest is just a matter of size; but building things deliberately smaller makes them more difficult and expansive. Especially if you the other way and try to built a Terran/Vas Lilith with a big main beam and what else is required - there are relatively few Liliths in the Shivan armada either, so it is most likely an issue for them too.

--- End quote ---
Escort ships.
The corvettes are the standard combatant ship, but there is a niche for smaller units where they don't have to deal with destroyers often.
Capital ships, regardless of size, offer to have good staying power. As mentioned, fighters can only be on station for so long and need a hangar bay nearby.

Let's do a speculation on ship design for soon after Capella:

If the Mentu got rid of its 2x THT's and grabbed 2 extra Flak guns (maybe the long range variety), it would have been perfect for this role. It already is a thick skinned ship with enough anti-fighter firepower to do the job.
To escort gas miners and freighters, this would be enough, and would free the more expensive ships for front line use.

The Aeolus ought to be rearmed so all 4 of its centerline turrets are AAA beams, and kick out the THT's for 2x Prometheus turrets (fighter weapons were sometimes mounted on turrets, so this does not break canon).

There is also a version of its beams that has a much quicker rate of fire, called the Green Beam ( https://wiki.hard-light.net/index.php/Green_Beam ).
The Terran cruiser is the expensive one already, so why not give it a bigger anti-capship punch.
It could then fill the roles of both the Fenris and Leviathan.

Regarding its price tag... I think it was so expensive per unit because of the small production run before the GTVA shifted towards corvettes. It also may have been a testbed for new weapons (AAA beams, flak?).
If it gets approved for a long production run, even with the upgrades, it would still become affordable eventually.

The Aeolus is also surprisingly effective against enemy cruisers if it can get into flak range. Then it chews up their systems and weapons with the flak's ability to explode all over the place, and when the target is disarmed and disabled, the Aeolus can finish it off safely.
I ran tests a long time ago, and if the Aeolus could disarm the main beam on a Lilith with the first salvo of its main beams, it would win the duel.
 

Grizzly:
The FS2's campaign nerfs the leviathan throughout most of its missions. The standard cruiser is supposed to have 4 AA beams, but these loadouts get overridden by mission designers quite a lot. A proper leviathan is, imo, an AA threat similar to the aeolus - Whilst the Aeolus has flak guns, they're a lot easier to avoid and they're outranged by a Prometheus S. AA beams on the other hand...

But a big problem for any warship post capella is going to be the trebuchet and maxim cannons. Yes, the Shivans do not have access to this long-range weaponry in capella itself, but it's safe to assume that if the GTVA can develop these weapons, so can the Shivans (and as ever, the Shivans aren't the only threat to the GTVA). I do think that a relatively small platform that's dedicated to improved AA beams and only AA beams (like the long range variant that the Warspite is testing) has value, especially if that ship doesn't have the blind spots in AA coverage that the more anti-warship focused warships have.

Nightmare:

--- Quote from: CT27 on July 01, 2024, 06:31:09 pm ---
--- Quote from: Trivial Psychic on June 24, 2024, 06:05:26 pm ---It would be useful if a group of AWACS could effectively jam Shivan targeting sensors.  Just create a bunch of AWACS cruisers with enough anti-fighter coverage to protect themselves from swarm attacks by fighters, and have them run interference for the big-gun warships to engage the Sath from distance with their own beams.

--- End quote ---

I remember a single mission once where there was a GTVA ship that had a beam inhibitor device.  It was able to disable all beams on the battlefield (IOW while it would disable Shivan beams, it would also mean allied ships couldn't fire beams either).

Could something like that be an effective strategy against Sathani?  I.e., turn the device on, have a squad destroy the four primary beams on a Sathanas...then turn the device back off again?

--- End quote ---

I also remember a (non-public) mission where Shivan main beams were jammed, but it was using some ETAK device to get that done. It was done pretty well but overall I think it'd be kinda lame if Shivan capships could just be disabled by ordinary EM warfare. Basically the entirety of FS2s plot was about how Alien their tech is, so it should be somewhat more exotic, and the effects more limited, perhabs declining in intensity, duration etc as time goes on.


--- Quote from: Shivan Hunter on June 24, 2024, 05:44:32 pm ---For specifically countering Saths, I think the calculus turns out more in favor of bombers than anything else. Fast, agile bombers armed with heavy anti-subsystem bombs specifically tailored to Sath beams in particular and possibly Shivan beam tech in general. Bearbaiting was after all a resounding success by any measure: One bomber wing launched in desperation managed to completely defang the Shivans' biggest threat!

I like the idea of cruisers' disposability vs Shivans being factored into their construction. (Ties in well with my Mjolnir plans! ;)) But I also like the idea of cruisers just not being such absolute ass, the way they're depicted in FS2. BP's cruisers seem much more believable, being a serious threat to enemy fighters, and needing a coordinated effort to take down - contrast with the Fenris or maybe even the Aeolus in retail FS2, which could lose a fight to a single sufficiently determined Herc 2.

--- End quote ---

Fighting a Sath with beams alive is an extremely bad idea. Whether you're trying to waste cruisers instead of corvettes doesnt make it any better.

Besides, we already know how to defeat how to kill a Sath. Defeating an entire armada of them - which is the bar set by FS2 alone - requires a significant amount of firepower, perhabs more than bombers alone can ever deliver (unless you just make super-mega-meson-whatever warheads that can kill a destroyer with a single hit), so you'll need something bigger bc you'll unlikely be able to fit beams of that magnitude on a cruiser - if you like the Mjolnir-but-ship concept it should be corvette or frigate sized, minimum, as even an LRed/BGreen/BVas will need a very long time for a million HP. For the reasons EtP mentioned, you dont want to build it too big either, elseway you'll be too dependent on just a few ships.

Beyond that it gets interesting though. Most people always think about Saths when talking about post-Capella - not even an armada of 80 of them, but just a handful or maybe a dozen; when they appear to be more of a disposable tool to blow up stars and their main beamweapons just a neat byproduct. The way I think about them is more the way somebody posted here a long time ago - that the Lucifer is much like an Ursa (it blows stuff up) while the Sathanas is much like a Faustus (serving some exotic scientific purpose). So, GTVA should also take into consideration that the Shivans finally pull out their Orion...

BengalTiger:

--- Quote from: Grizzly on July 04, 2024, 09:52:17 am ---The FS2's campaign nerfs the leviathan throughout most of its missions. The standard cruiser is supposed to have 4 AA beams, but these loadouts get overridden by mission designers quite a lot. A proper leviathan is, imo, an AA threat similar to the aeolus - Whilst the Aeolus has flak guns, they're a lot easier to avoid and they're outranged by a Prometheus S. AA beams on the other hand...

But a big problem for any warship post capella is going to be the trebuchet and maxim cannons. Yes, the Shivans do not have access to this long-range weaponry in capella itself, but it's safe to assume that if the GTVA can develop these weapons, so can the Shivans (and as ever, the Shivans aren't the only threat to the GTVA). I do think that a relatively small platform that's dedicated to improved AA beams and only AA beams (like the long range variant that the Warspite is testing) has value, especially if that ship doesn't have the blind spots in AA coverage that the more anti-warship focused warships have.

--- End quote ---

Yeah, that's why I was lobbying to get 4x AAA beams on a next production run for the Aeolus.

If they are ULTRA beams then even better.  :D
Would counter the long range guns and missiles, however a scout fighter with target designators was needed during the campaign. However again - that could have been due to some nebula effects...

A different way is when targeting systems catch up with weapons and flak can intercept a Trebuchet. It's fast, but it's also big, kinda an equivalent of hypersonic missiles of today.

Didn't the Fenris have 2 beams?
I don't think the Levi was ever with 2 AAA's, I thought it had 4.

If it did, then it might be that not the whole fleet was rearmed to the new standard. This could be explained with in game lore, and not just mission design.

Now regarding dodging beams vs flak - if you fly alongside the enemy ship rather than towards it, you will get out of the beam before it causes much damage as AAA beams do not follow their targets during a shot.
Just do a 90 deg turn when its beams are charging up and you'll be fine for the most part, and keep going until the beam is powering down.
Bonus points for using afterburners at the right time. Then your ship will be out of the beam in a small fraction of a second.

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