[Androgeos Exeunt]

I don't think Samuel's Nagari sensitivity has anything to do with him being unable to communicate with the Vishnans. I've a feeling that they deliberately decided to cut him off for a little space. As to why they would do that is anyone's guess.

[Destiny]

Perhaps the Shivans did something to the Vishnans in that Apocalypse universe, with that SJ Dante...

[starlord]

last i checked, the dante was actually getting hammered by the preserver... if the two met again in combat...

[Buckshee Rounds]

last i checked, the dante was actually getting hammered by the preserver... if the two met again in combat...

Only cause the preserver is freded to knock out the Dante's beam cannons.

[MatthTheGeek]

Yeah, IIRC the Dante is slightly better than the Preserver. Doesn't mean that the Vishnans wouldn't win. Also doesn't mean that neither of em don't have even bigger stuff.

Inb4Gargant.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

The Preserver wasn't positioned to properly combat the Dante. This is why it always ended up taking more damage in initial releases of AoA. Even in a fair fight, the Dante will most likely win (4 BFReds versus 3 LRABeams).

[-Sara-]

Just had this insane thought, what if Vishans = Shivans and they're just using this really elaborate ploy to have humankind eradicate itself?

[QuantumDelta]

Arms races tend to make sides stronger toward the end, unless we really did go brink-of-extinction style, it wouldn't make sense.
It's also really not the Shivans' style.
....And it's a bit too convoluted...

[PsychoLandlord]

Just had this insane thought, what if Vishans = Shivans and they're just using this really elaborate ploy to have humankind eradicate itself?

Mind = Blown.

In all seriousness, that would be such a cop out.

[Snail]

(or maybe the Vishnans and Shivans are distinct but working together)

[Hades]

Yeah, IIRC the Dante is slightly better than the Preserver. Doesn't mean that the Vishnans wouldn't win. Also doesn't mean that neither of em don't have even bigger stuff.

Inb4Gargant.

The Dante may be bigger in total surface area, but the Preserver has it beat in both volume and length.

[-Norbert-]

I don't think the Shivans and Vishnans are working together in some ploy to destroy Humans and Vasudans. If they wanted to do that, they could have simply used those 80 Sathanas to glass every planet anywere near GTVA space.

Maybe they are two factions fo the same species, with different philosophies, but I very much doubt they work together, much less to destroy mankind.

[Buckshee Rounds]

Maybe they are two factions fo the same species, with different philosophies, but I very much doubt they work together, much less to destroy mankind.

They aren't really factions at all tbh, they're role in the plot seems to supersede that. I like to think the Vishnan-Shivan situation is complicated enough that we won't be able to guess these things straight out, or deceptively simple enough to achieve the same effect, if you catch my drift. I doubt the Shivans/Vishnans are somehow working together to destroy humanity or anything as straightforward as that. If their motives were straightforward they'd have already achieved them, which they evidently haven't.

[-Sara-]

It was more of a what-if and "WTF" remark than a serious conclusion. But it would be shocking.

I'm also not sure at what scale the Shivans and Vasudans are active. If it is within their galaxy or within the universe.

[Liberator]

The Shivans purpose, at least within the BPverse(as I see it), based upon the very short dialogue between the preserver and dante, is to "encourage" growth of species once they reach a certain level of development and also to "encourage" in such a way that they are unified as a species prior to contact with the other enlightened species.  So here's how I see it:

Brahmans were the most advanced Type 3 in the Races and then left that group and disappeared they either collapsed(possibly becoming Humans?) or became Type 4 and no longer had anything in common with the Others.

Vishnans seem to be slightly more advanced than the Shivans and are likely a solid Type 3.  They also seem to be de facto in leadership of the Others as they banished the Shivans in the apoc-verse.

Shivans are the lowest in the hierarchy.  Borderline Type 3, they are more likely a Type 2 with a few nasty tricks.

Humans and Vasudans are high end type 1 that the Shivans are "encouraging".

[Raiden]

The Shivans purpose, at least within the BPverse(as I see it), based upon the very short dialogue between the preserver and dante, is to "encourage" growth of species once they reach a certain level of development and also to "encourage" in such a way that they are unified as a species prior to contact with the other enlightened species.  So here's how I see it:

Brahmans were the most advanced Type 3 in the Races and then left that group and disappeared they either collapsed(possibly becoming Humans?) or became Type 4 and no longer had anything in common with the Others.

Vishnans seem to be slightly more advanced than the Shivans and are likely a solid Type 3.  They also seem to be de facto in leadership of the Others as they banished the Shivans in the apoc-verse.

Shivans are the lowest in the hierarchy.  Borderline Type 3, they are more likely a Type 2 with a few nasty tricks.

Humans and Vasudans are high end type 1 that the Shivans are "encouraging".

This is interesting but can you define the 'types' you are referring to?

[-Sara-]

I assume you rate that with Kardashev scale? Generally rated from type 1 to type 3, type 0 and 4 being more so unofficial/theoretical.

This is interesting but can you define the 'types' you are referring to?

In short, for those who don't know the Kardashev scale, it is a typology which grades the advancement of a species on a universal scale. I'll explain it as I understand it:

Type 0 - Unofficially, a civilization which cannot draw the full power from their own planet falls in this catagory. Like us! But we're getting close, we're 0.72 right now and rising faster each decade, depending on innovative new ideas for gaining energy wether or not we rise even faster still.

Type 1 - The first grade on the Kardashev scale, involving a civilization which can draw all available power from their own planet in any thinkable way. This can be from heat, water, air, converting whatever material into a source of energy and so on. Scientifically, quote, 10^16W to 10^17W.

Type 2 - This type of civilizations can draw energy directly from their own sun(s) or a source of similar power. They can for example build a Dyson's sphere or shell (an artificial world around a sun, living on the inside of the sphere and not on the outside surface) which finds itself in the habitable zone of a star. The amount of power they draw is so large they are capable of powering and maintaining some serious technological endeavours. If these people can convert energy into matter, they can probably spit out one after another large starship with ease. Again scientificially, we're talking here about 4 ×10^26W, roughly the amount of energy our sun gives out. This can vary depending on the size of a sun.

Type 3 - Now, these guys learned to not just tap into their sun (or a comparable power source), but into other suns! They most probably can travel between solar systems and repeat the process they applied to their own star, to another star. Alternately, they may have found ways to manipulate space so that they can tap into other stars comfortably from their own solar system. These guys eventually travel from star to star and can tap into the energy from their entire galaxy. They can summon up so much energy that they probably can perform unthinkable feats, manipulating laws of physics/science in ways we cannot come to imagine. How much energy that is depends greatly on the size of the galaxy.

Type 4 - Not really part of the Kardashev scale, but theoretically these civilizations can tap into the energy of several galaxies or even the supermassive black hole at the centre of our galaxy. These civilizations harvest so much power that they can probably manipulate the very excistance of all that is. Eventually they may leave the explored universe as we know it, they are no longer part of the workings which are our universe.

I imagine the Terrans and Vasudans both as a type 1 civilization. They can fully draw power and resources from theirs and other planets, or totalling that of one planet by using various planets to this goal. The ancients may have come close to being a type 2 civilization, as they seemingly had much more time to spread over the galaxy and already managed to build several (immensely costly) Knossos gates.

I personally also place the Shivans as a type 3. They seem to blow up entire stars and not taking into account whatever reason or explanation BP will offer for that, they probably draw power from the resulting nebulae or black holes this way. I think the Vishans can do the same, but being preservers probably do not take more than they need. Shivans seem to create entire fleets of Sathanas juggernaughts which in numbers are an effective but costly design, we do not know how many ships the Vishans own. Seeing that the Brahmas formed a triumvirate society with the Shivans and Vishans, I'll imagine they were on par with the Shivans and Vishans for some time, until either being destroyed or reaching a type 4 stage.

[Raiden]

Thanks for that, that was nicely written and informative. One thing I've wondered about the BP-verse is why the Vishans and Shivans are so concerned with the goings on of humanity. I know, I know, the Vishans see the potential within us to take the mantle of the Brahmans, but as you say, we seem to be just on the cusp of a type 1 species, which is essentially the start of our journey to the stars and no way near what we'll eventually become. The ending shot of War in Heaven, with the milky way in the back and hundreds of thousands of stars makes me wonder, are interdimensional creatures waging war across parallel universes really that interested in one little war around one tiny star, a war which without intervention is presumably going to run its course soon anyway.

[-Sara-]

Who says we'll become the next Brahmas in one week? If the Vishans and Shivans trust us to become the creators, we may have to walk a path of thousands if not tens of thousands of years.

Also, alternately, spiritualists may reckon that a type 4 would be an evolution where one becomes a being transcending the physical state as we know it, either by natural or artificial evolution. Many religions which deal with rebirth believe that when all of life's lessons are learned, one becomes transcended in such a manner.

[General Battuta]

Act 3 beta FREDding should be done as soon as AXEM

(we're just waiting on his m21, more or less)

This will put the elapsed time for Act 3 at about 7 months or so, which is a little slower than we wanted, but Act 3's missions turned out to all be hilariously complex. I have been replaying them recently and many of them are also hilariously fun, though not without their issues.

We have an optional new system whereby players can access a lot of extra plot material via missions if they like. There's an opt-out for those who prefer to get down to the action. Those souls will probably still face many WORDS, but fewer than they might otherwise.

We've been corresponding with a man of some stature in the development team of [REDACTED FOR HIS PRIVACY], a game of some repute. As a pro developer he seemed quite fond of our work but wanted some voice acting to help deal with all the tl;dr.