Author Topic: BP: War in Heaven discussion  (Read 918087 times)

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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
They don't like it because it "undermines Humanity's ability to defend itself from the Shivans, as was stated above". :D

Do you want a map?

 
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Exactly. They have a reason. Not simply "We Dont Like You."

I believe I have completed your map sir. :p
« Last Edit: March 29, 2011, 07:57:03 pm by PsychoLandlord »

 

Offline Liberator

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Even though Ubuntu's current plan of "attack" is based on the ramblings and hallucinations of people of questionable mental status.  I mean seriously, it's like they've been listening to the Chaos Gods and are performing the feint of feints to lure more skulls in for Khorne or something.

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!  SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!
(although, honestly, I like the Eldar and the Orks better.  Dem Spikey Boyz iz whacko!)
Disclaimer: This post was meant as comedy and in no way reflects the actual point of Nagari in the plot)
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline Mars

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
What is Ubuntu?
Quote from: Why Are We at War?
The Ubuntu Party cannot function in an open universe. It is an artifact of the unique conditions of post-Isolation Sol. All its enlightenment and sophisticated modeling cannot account for the presence of hostile, xenocidal aliens.

Ubuntu has no answer for the Shivans. It relies on a universe in which all living beings can, in the long term, be persuaded to cooperate through market and psychological forces.

Additionally, conditions in the GTVA are ripe for the spread of the Ubuntu ideology. We consider the philosophical positions of the Ubuntu Party to be a threat to the preservation of the human species. We must move rapidly to contain this threat and organize a gradated return of Sol to legitimate GTVA authority. GTVI has already prepared a program to absorb and learn from Ubuntu's social engineering projects. The Ubuntu Elders will be socially isolated and gradually discredited.

Under the Titan Accords, the governments of Jupiter, Mars and Earth are members of the Galactic Terran Alliance, and bound by their treaty obligations so long as an external threat exists.

Lastly see REDACTED.

EDIT:

The Security Counsel has no problem with the UEF, or the idea of Ubuntu, within the context of a Shivan free world.
Quote
Once the military phase of our operations in Sol are complete, we will face the task of integrating and governing a population larger than that of the entire GTVA, rousing their society to meet the challenges of perpetual near-extinction. This transition will be difficult, but it is also necessary for human survival. The marginalization of the Ubuntu Party is an uncomfortable necessity, but if the past fifty years have made one thing clear to us, it is that we must never flinch from the exigencies of survival.

Super late EDIT:

Also, in the fiction, it's strongly hinted that the GTVA has deeper reasons for going to war.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2011, 11:04:43 pm by Mars »

 

Offline Destiny

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Deeper reasons, eh...probably...they want Earth back. Even I do. When they...finally. Finally return to Earth...their homeworld...they meet someone who doesn't reciprocate them for blowing up the Lucifer. If not for the GTA-PVN/GTVA, the UEF wouldn't exist, Earth...wouldn't be there...it'll be the...apocalypse universe all over again...

 

Offline Mars

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
I suspect the deeper reasons will involve Nagari, the Vishnans, or the Shivans directly

EDIT:

I hope that this, and Contingency MORPHEUS are touched on later.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 01:03:53 am by Mars »

 

Offline -Norbert-

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Deeper reasons, eh...probably...they want Earth back. Even I do. When they...finally. Finally return to Earth...their homeworld...they meet someone who doesn't reciprocate them for blowing up the Lucifer. If not for the GTA-PVN/GTVA, the UEF wouldn't exist, Earth...wouldn't be there...it'll be the...apocalypse universe all over again...
Erm.... why should Earth be thankfull toward the GTVA for blowing up the Lucy? That was done mostly by the GTA (which was led by Earth) with one squad of Vasudans helping out.
If they should be thankfull to anyone, it is to those fighter and bomber pilots who actually did the blowing up. And those who survived ended up stranded in Sol (and according to rumors in the Fedayeen).

 

Offline Destiny

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Because the GTA was the predecessor of the GTVA and the UEF should be thankful? Haha. Primarily because none of the ships sent to blow up the Lucifer entered from the Sol jumpnode. But I think Mars's point is more...well. Fitting.

 

Offline The E

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
No. Predecessor = Came before. They are successors. Also, "they should be thankful"? That's like an american saying to a german, "We would really like a significant portion of your industrial output and we'd like you to abandon socialized medical care, because we liberated you in WW2. Oh, and we'll start shooting you if you don't."
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Destiny

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Successor and predecessor, they're almost the same. Not that I really want to flesh out on it, but after losing Sol, and having Capella blown up, I'd think the GTVA would be ""We would really like a significant portion of your industrial output and we'd like you to abandon socialized medical care, because we liberated you in WW2. Oh, and we'll start shooting you if you don't."".

 

Offline The E

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Quote from: Merriam-Webster
Definition of PREDECESSOR

1
: one that precedes; especially : a person who has previously occupied a position or office to which another has succeeded

Quote from: Merriam-Webster
Definition of SUCCESSOR

: one that follows; especially : one who succeeds to a throne, title, estate, or office

Yeah. Totally the same.

Also, I think you hit "Post" prematurely. You forgot to make a point.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Destiny

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Yeah, must've hit the enter key when I was alt-tabbing. Doesn't matter though. I'm done with making points and stuff...there's food in the kitchen. Although, the UEF ships...there's this contractor with a 'threat' in it's name. Why that? It's...unique.

 

Offline Mars

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
"Oxys-Ultor Threat Workshop" Probably like Lockheed Martin's "Skunk Works"  Advanced Development Programs. It's a dedicated project to develop an interceptor and interceptor weapons  would be my guess.

They developed the Kentauroi and Rapier.

 

Offline The E

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Also,  :v: reference.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Buckshee Rounds

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Actually it is, read GTVI's report on Ubuntu. The Terran assembly despises Ubuntu because if it spread into GTVA systems, terran's would flock to the UEF because of it. Basically, unchecked spread of Ubuntu would severely undermine the Terran Assembly's power. :)

^ This. I hate to draw parallels with RL conflicts but the GTVA's motives in Sol are similar to the US wanting to avoid the 'domino effect' of communism spreading in south Asia by invading Vietnam. Yes it's a totally different scenario, but it's a similar motive, out of a wide range of motives I'm sure. If Ubuntu were allowed to spread unchecked throughout GTVA systems they'd become irreversably pacifistic and unable to combat the Shivan threat.

  

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Yeah, of course. Pacifists that have managed to resist to the GTVA ultra-advanced might for 18 months with a third of their forces. Riiiiiiiiiiight.
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Offline Mars

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
^ This. I hate to draw parallels with RL conflicts but the GTVA's motives in Sol are similar to the US wanting to avoid the 'domino effect' of communism spreading in south Asia by invading Vietnam. Yes it's a totally different scenario, but it's a similar motive, out of a wide range of motives I'm sure. If Ubuntu were allowed to spread unchecked throughout GTVA systems they'd become irreversably pacifistic and unable to combat the Shivan threat.
Yeah, of course. Pacifists that have managed to resist to the GTVA ultra-advanced might for 18 months with a third of their forces. Riiiiiiiiiiight.

I think that 4 destroyers =/= Shivan armada.

Remember, the Sol system has around the same amount of available resources as the GTVA, and they've managed to build ~26 destroyers and escorts for all of them, with a rebellion, and another Shivan incursion during that time. 

In that same 50 years, the UEF has produced 3 destroyers, 35 odd frigates, and a whole crapton (between 60 and 80) of cruisers.

I'm not saying that the UEF isn't an extremely capable force, for its size. But if the Terran Assembly decided that they'd suddenly risk everything to take Sol, do you really think the UEF fleet would hold them at all? Now imagine that Sol gets invaded by 10 Sathanas Juggernaughts and escorts.

Which military has a realistic, if small, chance of stopping them?

 

Offline The E

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Ahem. Consider this. The GTVA basically has one Battlegroup for each system. The UEF has the rough equivalent of five. In a system that has been cut off from everything. And that doesn't need that much of a military presence, not really. I mean, it's like trying to convince the american public that what they really need are five additional Carrier battlegroups. They're just surplus to requirement.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Exactly. If you were trying to say that because the UEF has a smaller fleet than the GTVA, they can't resist to the Shivan, that's true but doesn't help much since the GTVA itself wouldn't resist to the Shivans either.

If you were trying to say that the UEF is militarily inferior to the GTVA, then yes they are, but they're nowhere near defenseless pacifists. They have a small fleet compared to the GTVA simply because they had nothing to defend themselves against besides the Gefs. Even with a comparatively small fleet, and a comparatively inferior technology overall, they managed to hold against two fully-armed battlegroups hardened by two wars, with a single fleet, which isn't a small feat for "pacifists", especially pacifists that haven't seen a war in 50 years.

Besides, it seems pretty obvious to me that if Ubuntu spreaded to the whole GTVA, now knowing the full extent of the Shivan threat, they would spend much more of their resources on the military front - even more than the already huge amount they spent while being completely isolated and having no threat to defend themselves against (three 3.5 km long destroyers and squadrons of freighter-sized fleet bombers aren't exactly what I'd call police and peace-keeping forces) - so the whole "Ubuntu would leave us defenseless" argument is pretty much retarded to me.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

Mod management tools     -     Wiki stuff!     -     Help us help you

666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline Buckshee Rounds

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Yeah, of course. Pacifists that have managed to resist to the GTVA ultra-advanced might for 18 months with a third of their forces. Riiiiiiiiiiight.

If you take the UEF's fleet and compare it to the industrial capacity of the Sol system it's relatively small, even though in actuality it's quite large. If you were to apply that same ratio of military to Ubuntu-ised GTVA systems they'd have very minimalist defences, certainly not enough to combat the Shivans.

They're pacifistic in the same sense that they aren't militaristic. Just because they have adapted to fight a hyper intense war in a single star system doesn't mean they have any sort of galactic-scale war fighting ability, at least not on par with what the GTVA has.

Ninja'ed. Surely the vast amount of shipping, Gef raids and the unlikely possiblity of Shivan invasion is justification for a navy at all? I still believe the UEF have a rather small force relatively speaking when compated to Sol's military potential. Doesn't change the fact that though relatively small it's still a large fleet.

Ninja'ed again. The GTVA has Sathanas-killing firepower on hand. You can argue that they're ultimately ineffective since the Shivans would inevitably win, but it doesn't change the fact that the GTVA is a much safer bet.