[LordPomposity]

wat

Aren't intrasystem jumps either instantaneous or very nearly so? Meaning that mission length timetables give no hint whatsoever as to how far the logistics ship is going, and that there's furthermore no need to position a logistics ship anywhere near the ships it's to resupply?

The information Carey leaked involved the timing and coordinates of the Agincourt's jumps.

I know that. I meant that to leak the coordinates, she would have had to know them exactly. She couldn't have deduced them from knowledge of which ships Agincourt was to resupply or how long she was to be gone, as NGTM-1R seemed to be saying with:

Then there are the armies of people who could simply make highly educated guesses based on travel distances and times of tasks involved given a hard fact or two, like seeing the resupply ship leave its home area.

[-Norbert-]

Even if it was true that only someone in Sol could know the schedules (which isn't the case) who's to say that Carey was the one who obtained the schedules in the first place. She could have just passed them along, acting as middle(wo)man between a person who dug up the plans and another person who made the call to the UEF. There could even be a whole chain of people involved, though the higher the number, the more unlikely the scenario gets. The fewer people who know about a conspiracy, the easier it is to conceal.

[Destiny]

Maybe she had some contacts in the military office and asked 'yo, what's the Agincourt's jump schedule?'

[General Battuta]

Maybe she had some contacts in the military office and asked 'yo, what's the Agincourt's jump schedule?'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compartmentalization_%28information_security%29

[LordPomposity]

Well maybe she said please.

More seriously, there's no reason for more than two people at maximum to be involved in this: one to obtain  the information, and one to get it into Sol (if the first was elsewhere and did not have means of doing so). Any additions to the chain between those two just adds needless risk.

[NGTM-1R]

I know that. I meant that to leak the coordinates, she would have had to know them exactly. She couldn't have deduced them from knowledge of which ships Agincourt was to resupply or how long she was to be gone, as NGTM-1R seemed to be saying with:

It's not like a jump node moves much. You only have to put a tail on the ship as it enters Sol, so you only need to know about when it enters the Sol node in Delta Serp really. Alternately, you only have to be able to compromise one part of a rendezvous to put all parties to it in danger. The Agincourt itself did not have to be the ship whose movements were known if one of the ships she was to resupply was.

[LordPomposity]

Okay, that makes a lot more sense than what I thought you said.

[Destiny]

Maybe she had some contacts in the military office and asked 'yo, what's the Agincourt's jump schedule?'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compartmentalization_%28information_security%29

If you haven't realized I'm just dumbing the process down.

[Anjelus]

I think it's interesting the GTVA even let people from the 14th serve in the fleet again, knowing what they know about what they encountered.

Spoiler:

I'm assuming the Morpheus Contingency has to do with the Vishnans or Shivans or both with their big MASSIVE warships entering our realm and attacking Terran space? Steele is head of the fleet, it makes sense he'd be privy to that information and knows exactly what went down with the 14th. Actually makes his commitment to ending the war quickly and with limited attrition make even more sense.

[-Sara-]

A random idea, but very different angle on the identity of Brahmas came to me today.

Perhaps the Brahmas were never an actual species, instead being the conglomerated product of the two entirely different Shivan and Vishnan species. The Shivans know only to destroy, the Vishnans know only to preserve. These two properties together however allow for creation which in itself is the act of scrapping concepts deemed not useful (destruction) and keeping concepts which deserve merit and further consideration (preservation). To explain why both the Vishnans and Shivans believe the Brahmas to have been a seperate species, one must look at the nature of these two ancient and surviving species. To the Vishnans the act of exacting destruction, and to the Shivans the thought of maintaining preservation are SO alien, that neither can comprehend nor grasp the concept of creation which requires an understanding of both destruction AND preservation. Thus so the act of creation was never understood by the Shivans and Vishnans, it was merely the product of a successful collaboration between the Shivans and Vishnans and for them it was convenient: life kept developing and both could keep fulfilling their respective purposes. Somewhere in the course of time things went wrong and their alliance faltered. The truth behind the true face of creation became corrupted and misinterpreted and the workings of their alliance ceased to be. The alliance was now a mere officiality: both the Vishnans and Shivans knew the alliance was apparently important but neither knew why. Ironically having a narrow and biased perspective is the one and only thing the two share in common and so they both agreed there must have been a third species which was capable of creation: a concept they never have or will understand. Because these mythical 'creators' are nowhere to be seen, they are assumed to have disappeared a long time ago and are considered to have perhaps perished. There never was a Triumvirate of Shivans, Vishnans and Brahmas. It was a Duumvirate, an alliance between two species, two species which despite being eachothers nemesis formed a mutualistic bond through which all in excistence could prosper in the long term. Two species which forgot they are two sides of an automaton which must not deviate from their purpose. Humankind or Vasudankind aren't the Brahmas, nor will they be. If they prove themselves worthy, they are tolerated for the time being until becoming malevolent to the universe. But MAYBE if the Terrans and Vasudans can solve their conflicts, the Vishnans and Shivans for a brief moment will observe and realize the miracle of creation, the value of an alliance. Indeed brief, but clear and evident enough to realize the importance of their roles: destruction and preservation, again in perfect balance to resume their part in creation again for the next few billion years.

[Snail]

That's a rather interesting theory...

[-Norbert-]

So the Brahmans are kinda like a religious idol for both species. Something they think was real, when it only really is the manifestation of their own wishes and because they were so fixated on "their part" of the alliance, they forgot how to do anything beyond that purpose and thus the higher goal moved on into myth.
That certainly would make an interresting storyline, though I'm not sure we will ever learn enough about either species for such ideas to make it into BP... anyone planning on doing a campaign as a Vishnan or Shivan?

It also has a very Babylon 5ish feel to it, where the Shadows and Vorlons worked together toward a common goal (despite their drastically different approaches to it), but over the course of the millenia the question of who was right became more important to them than the actual goal (helping the younger races evolve).

[-Sara-]

So the Brahmans are kinda like a religious idol for both species. Something they think was real, when it only really is the manifestation of their own wishes and because they were so fixated on "their part" of the alliance, they forgot how to do anything beyond that purpose and thus the higher goal moved on into myth.
That certainly would make an interresting storyline, though I'm not sure we will ever learn enough about either species for such ideas to make it into BP... anyone planning on doing a campaign as a Vishnan or Shivan?

It also has a very Babylon 5ish feel to it, where the Shadows and Vorlons worked together toward a common goal (despite their drastically different approaches to it), but over the course of the millenia the question of who was right became more important to them than the actual goal (helping the younger races evolve).

Haven't seen enough of B5 to compare the two, nor have I seen it beyond the season where Earth was freed from a dictator (even so have only seen episodes on occasion). But I guess many myths and scifi's have such a theme in common there.

[-Norbert-]

The season were earth was freed from a dictator was the 4th out of 5 seasons, so if you had seen every episode up to there, you'd have seen the vast majority of B5.

[The E]

And while Season 5 isn't bad, strictly speaking, it lacks the narrative drive that made Seasons 2 through 4 so awesome.

[-Sara-]

The season were earth was freed from a dictator was the 4th out of 5 seasons, so if you had seen every episode up to there, you'd have seen the vast majority of B5.

Dutch TV broadcasted it in chunks, sometimes with up to almost 2 years of rehearsals. It's only the last few years that they buy recent series here. But I'll rewatch those series someday. Was long ago that I saw them.

[Kosh]

And while Season 5 isn't bad, strictly speaking, it lacks the narrative drive that made Seasons 2 through 4 so awesome.

The biggest problem with season 5 was that they didn't plan for it to happen the way it did. During the shooting of season 4 they didn't know if there would be a season 5, so everything that was supposed to go there get crammed into season 4.

[Anjelus]

Season 5 is a mixed bag. The first half dealing with the telepaths is mostly pretty bad, but then they were always a weak link in the show.  The second half that focuses on Londo though is as good as anything B5 did before though, he and G'Kar are the strongest characters in the show in my opinion.

[Luis Dias]

The problem with all the mythology behind ideas that may end up seeming to be simplistic, like the Shivans being the destroyers who know nothing about "creation" and the Vishnans the creators who know nothing about "destruction" is that they run against the most basic fundamental questions, and are clearly a dumbification of these species, instead of a complexification, something that we would expect in a more evolved species through time.

The most fundamental questions I'm talking about are of the nature of consistency. If the shivans only know how to destroy, who builds their ships? Who is responsible for the maintenance of their empire (thousands of years of the 2 law of thermodynamics will demand from you a little "creativity" energy to compensate, I'd say)? And on the other side, how come the Vishnans are able to fight the shivans, if they are so unable to "destroy"? They seem as competent as it gets, albeit at one point they decide to trust Bei's instincts (but even that decision is a tactical aggressive one, to find a path to better fight the shivans, even if taken at face value).

So while I did enjoy reading that, Sara, specially for the huge irony of what your explanation implies (and I'm a big, big fan of irony, so I really liked that part) I'm still not buying this simplification. It's like an insult to my (the player) intelligence. Are we really to believe that these two amazing species are so oblivious to the nature of creating things, or to their own natures? It's so counter-intuitive...

Make these Shivans and Vishnans more intelligent within your mythos, and I'll buy it.

[-Norbert-]

Maybe you take us a bit too literal here. Only knowing about creation/protection means, they just never consider going on the offensive. They put up a defensive line or jump in to protect others already under attack*, but without outside influence, they don't just charge into enemy terretory.** The Vishnan pilots even say "We destroy to preserve" when you order them to attack.

Spoiler:

*Like the mission were the Vishnans first showed up in force, destroying a demon and two ravanas bearing down on the Temeraire's group.
**Technically even the push through Shivans lines was a defensive action, since they rushed in to save the Orestes.

And even if you take the Shivans literally, they could be something like the Macross Zentradi. Their ships are all constructed by automated station left to them by their creators, the protocultue. They don't know how to build ships or weapons or anything else, but those automated factories supply them with all they need to continue their wars. They don't know how to maintain their ships either, but the ships are sophisticated and robust enough to last for milennia without maintanance. Once a ship breaks down, it's simply abondened.

I don't think the Shivans are that extreme, but that they have weapons that have the majority of their damage potential "locked up" might mean, they don't really understand the technology they use (either that or they are intentionally holding back, or someone else is pulling their strings ordering them to go in with the gloves on). Them only replicating their ships and weapons from some original without ever modifiying it (either because they don't know how, or because it would be sacrilege) would be one way to explain that.