[Luis Dias]

Thing is, pretty much all the possibilities you enumerate are also human, Sara. And you're right, we are doomed into thinking in an homosapien perspective. Still, we try our best to think out of it, or at least rephrase the same human psychologies in alien paradigms and contexts, making them strange enough, and by and large I think we have succeeded quite a few things in the past century.

Just consider darwinism and how it shred to pieces our concepts of what is a mind, what is altruism, pleasure, morals, etc. Consider the dangers lurking beneath the proposition of the "semantical apocalypse". These thoughts would be utterly alien to the nineteenth century person (with some notable exceptions, like say Nietzsche). I think that we are doing a pretty good job at imagining new ideas and concepts, it's just that we would like to be more productive in that regard. But imagining the novel is not easy .

As for me being too homosapien, you're probably right, but I do have some defenses there. It's not "human" per se to deny both ultra-pacifism and ultra-aggressiveness, but the end result of a certain kind of "natural selection" weeding out those extremes from being used in reality by any species. Not because they aren't human, but rather because they are both inneficient and self-destructing.

But I'm willing to admit my denialism if you counter by saying that you are thinking about shivans et al as part of a deeper balanced ecossystem trapped inside an attractor, that forces both shivans and vishnans to behave like they do for a really long time, stagnating them both into a steady state of vulgarity and lack of new achievements. They don't know how to create any more, and they are also stopping any other new species to threaten their own authority and presence on the galaxy by burning them to the ground before they start to compete.

Sort of like microsoft in the end nineties against all else.

See? It's like impossible to me not to think humanlike. What I also propose is that this is also true for all your ideas as well .

[Buckshee Rounds]

Man I definitely got to read this while stoned! What I will say, within the confines of my young, uninitiated mind, is that BP is a human story and any characteristics the Vishnans or Shivans have will be human characteristics. Because that's simply all we can relate to and sympathise with, which is the whole point of storytelling. Even an antagonist has human qualities, be it a super-computer, dog, a car etc.

Not if it is done correctly, like say in an investigatorial manner, alpha 1 is led to believe in a certain narrative and certain nature of shivans. Clues will slightly deceive you to confirmation. Some dark itch within your head still lurks though. There's something wrong in the narrative. And in the later part, you begin to realise that your anterior notions were wrong due to the lacking of a key information that shatters your pathetic ideas to the ground. Now you end up not understanding the shivans again.

The thing is though we aren't actually being given a clear definiton on the Shivans to contradict, or a clear idea on just wtf is going on. We have a set of facts such as Nagari individuals aren't hearing Vishnans anymore, Laporte is being influenced by Ken (who may or may not be a Shivan) and a message from cargo containers that means DariusGod knows what. It's been stated (in the vid commentaries) that if you can join together some of the dots you can probably anticipate what will happen next. Since most of us aren't very smart (you know who you are) this isn't likely to happen for most of the player base, so I don't see anyone forming a concrete idea to be knocked down, if you get what I mean.

If, say for instance, all the evidence pointed to the Shivans invading or some other comparable event and something entirely different were to happen then I could agree with you. Fact is the though all the evidence points to...well f*ck knows really, only the storyteller knows, unless you're as smart as the storyteller...which I'm not.

[Luis Dias]

I didn't say this was already happening in BP, Buckshee. I was only proposing stuff to the airwaves, and it may resonate in one mind or not and within 15 years could be somewhat used in any form on some unknown mod.

IOW, I'm just talking.

[Buckshee Rounds]

Fair dooz, there's a fine line between a plot twist and a cop out though.

[Luis Dias]

I'm not demanding bad plots, if that's your question.

[Buckshee Rounds]

Oh there's plenty out there without demanding for it. Any recent Shyamalan film for instance...

[Snail]

We've gone through this before. I think we settled on "Luis Dias does not understand plot."

[Luis Dias]

And I think we've also established that that is an insult, and not really an argument.

Look, I can take your insult lightheartedly if only you explain it to me why I don't "get it". As if I was 3 years old.

[-Sara-]

Happy hour over?

Something different before everyone explodes: What trump cards do you all expect the GTVA, UEF, Vasudans, Shivans and Vishnans have up their sleeves?

[Destiny]

Colossus/Amaterasu, Laporte C-4-1ing the Shivans/Vishnans, Khonsu II with a GVBB Vasuda, Shivan Subspace Rift cannon, Vishnan plot beams.

[NGTM-1R]

IOW, I'm just talking.

Y'know, using a literal troll catchphrase isn't helping your case.

[Snail]

Something different before everyone explodes: What trump cards do you all expect the GTVA, UEF, Vasudans, Shivans and Vishnans have up their sleeves?

GTVA - Zerg rush destroyers because TrashMan gets appointed to Sol theater after Steele slips and dies in the bath
UEF - Byrne's special project turns out to be the TSJ Icanus from Inferno
Vasudans - Vasudans have some Nagari phenomenon of their own (something to do with that one guy in the dossiers) and talk to teh Shivans
Shivans - destroy-universe SEXP
Vishnans - preserve-universe SEXP

[-Norbert-]

Happy hour over?

Something different before everyone explodes: What trump cards do you all expect the GTVA, UEF, Vasudans, Shivans and Vishnans have up their sleeves?

Counterquestion: Do the Shivans and Vishnans even have sleeves?
Also the Vasudans for that matter. I've seen Vasudans, but except for the pilots in their flight suits (they can't hide anything in the sleeves, since they need to be vacuum-proof) they seemed to be naked.

Anyway: The Shivans and Vishnans don't really need a surprise, thanks to those overpowered monsterships they have (Dante and however the Preserver's shipclass is called). With the GTVA I think their trumpcard are more political backstabbing, ambushes and tactical manouvering, rather than any surprising new technology/supership (I'm not saying they won't have any new toys mind you, after all their new mini-cruiser is already confirmed).
And the UEF still has their secret project going, whatever that may be. I suppose we can rule out the supership, since that would be far too cliché for BP, not to mention rather unlikely to be finished in 18 month and total secrecy. One hell of a trump would be material that proofs Steeles manipulation of the Vasudans and a way to let the Vasudans know and beliefe it.

[Luis Dias]

Damn, I only proposed to be surprised by some "amazing" plot twist that bewilders our petty prejudices, and suddenly and automatically I don't "get" plots, coz I'm just stupid like that. Of course I'm angry.

About your question is a far more pleasing and interesting one. Therefore I won't answer it.


No, really. It's a tough question. GTVA is on the higher ground now, so it's up to the UEF to show its own trump cards. It logically follows from the last cutscene that this trump card may have something to do with the Fedayeen, portrayed as a special group with special powers (like the spectres, say). More generally, they could theoretically resort to guerilla tactics and delay GTVA's victory as far as possible, since it's clear that bombing Earth is really out of the question.

However, they ought to be able to protect the council in any way, shape or form, and I'm both stunned at how is supposed the GTVA to strike them out, or UEF to protect them. IOW, I'm still somewhat at a loss where the black king in the chess board is supposed to be (something quite central to the game's strategy and tactics to be deployed, I'd say).

Now what particular trump card will the Fedayeen take out of their ass? Hard to predict, could be anything that crosses the minds of BP writers. A new stealth technology? A new fighter? Dunno.


GTVA? They still haven't used a lot of technical capabilities we might find in WiH2. Like tagging missiles, for instance, or the Pegasus. They showed brilliant schemes to wipe out ships in the first episode. I don't think we've seen it all. Their strategy should / could be heavily influenced / inspired by Delenda Est, to bring out timid UEF frigates & destroyers to the open so they can defeat them. Traps will be planned and tried to make. A mission outline where Laporte in a stealth fighter finds out about an incoming trap to a certain UEF battlegroup (and then further stress to get out fast to warn them... probably ending up in failure) feels possible.


Shivans are moddeled as if they were Shadows with their obscure psychological manipulations?

Vishnans haven't made an appearance in this universe yet. I have no idea where BP writers will take them.

[Luis Dias]

IOW, I'm just talking.

Y'know, using a literal troll catchphrase isn't helping your case.

WTF is wrong with you. This IS a thread where we are JUST TALKING about stuff.

FFS, did you woke up in the wrong side of the bed or smth?

[Buckshee Rounds]

I wouldn't take it so hard Luis, if you get pissed off at stuff NGTM says you'll be pissed for a long time, just leave it.

The GTVA can and does play to it's strengths, which is what makes them such an effective military force. The problem with the UEF is that they have such brilliant potential in ships like the Durga and the ability to hit opponents beyond beam range, but they don't use these strengths quite as effectively as they could. When they do however they are definitely a force to be reckoned with. We know the UEF only has 6 months left to fight and on top of that a pending assault by Steele, backed by Vasudan logistics and possibly direct military support.

The Fedayeen have their work cut out for them. I'm really looking forward to seeing more of them and the Gef in WiH2.

TAG missiles were used during Post Meridian (which still remains my favourite mission). The Juarez beams your ass if you get hit.

[NGTM-1R]

WTF is wrong with you. This IS a thread where we are JUST TALKING about stuff.

FFS, did you woke up in the wrong side of the bed or smth?

In simplest terms you've demonstrated, repeatedly, in this very thread, that you don't understand the concept of viewpoint and how it relates to storytelling and my distaste for you is that of a professional for an amateur. Note that I am doing a considerable disservice to actual amateurs at fiction by saying so, since most of them are at least able to understand the limitations of first-person viewpoints.

In simplest terms, you continue to label things asspulls when the story, told from a first-person and decidedly limited viewpoint, can very realistically not touch on them before they come up and therefore they could have always existed and, more importantly, been planned from the start, rather than the implied accusation that the writers are making **** up as they go along. Not only do you demonstrate a blatant disregard for the art and the science of storytelling, but for the skills of the BP team.

So yes, that does annoy me a good bit. It annoys Snail a good bit too it seems. I daresay it annoys the BP folks a good bit. And I would prefer you cease your commentary on things which you clearly are not equipped by your experience to commentate on, if you don't understand something as simple as the difference between first person limited and third person omniscient.

[Luis Dias]

Of course I don't understand any of the complexificated words you are talking about. Fiction? Viewpoint? Storytelling? Please someone buy me a dictionary already.

I have made no such mistakes you accuse me of, except for one. I did sincerely asked what an "arsepull" was because google didn't help me on that one. I'm SO SORRY I am not a native english speaker so the term didn't flow into my brain as naturally as it does to yours. I did ask naturally because my initial idea was dissed as such. If my idea is "dissable" as such, then so the FS2 plot is "dissable" as one, since what I was proposing was something similar to, but with different methods than, FS2 main plot.

And finally how the hell proposing to be stunned by the plot is something that "hurts" the BP folks is quite beyond me, I think you are smoking something really hard by now. Until you calm down yourself, I won't reply to you anymore, it's getting ****ing ridiculous on your part.

[LordPomposity]

[Colonol Dekker]

Something different before everyone explodes: What trump cards do you all expect the GTVA, UEF, Vasudans, Shivans and Vishnans have up their sleeves?

GTVA - Zerg rush destroyers because TrashMan gets appointed to Sol theater after Steele slips and dies in the bath
UEF - Byrne's special project turns out to be the TSJ Icanus from Inferno
Vasudans - Vasudans have some Nagari phenomenon of their own (something to do with that one guy in the dossiers) and talk to teh Shivans
Shivans - destroy-universe SEXP
Vishnans - preserve-universe SEXP

I REALLY REALLY hope that's how Steele dies. I just laughed so hard I farted.