[MatthTheGeek]

You should be able to find most of the relevant dates in command briefings.

[Scotty]

Which isn't exactly a helpfully compiled timeline, no, but it's certainly workable.  That might be something that would be helpful for people just finishing the campaign.

[SaltyWaffles]

1) The Carthage was already significantly damaged.
2) A Karuna is pretty big--not a destroyer, sure, but larger than any GTVA corvette. Couple that with the absurd number of Apocalypse antimatter torpedoes, flak munitions, and the reactor itself, and you get one hell of a punch (and bang).
3) The Karuna would be ramming at speeds around 60 m/s....that's considerable.
4) The Colossus skewered that Orion with heavy beams before it even got close. Not exactly much of a ramming attack (with poor speed, to boot).
5) Square-cubed law (IIRC) implies that the Colossus would be made out of (or built to be) far, far sturdier stuff than your average Orion. The attempted ramming was at the frontal armor of the ship, which is probably one of its thicker points.
6) I'm not sure you could even call it a ramming--I always got the impression that Koth's ship was largely gutted by beams before it really hit the Colossus (as in, it blew up before any real ramming occurred).
7) If at first you don't succeed...you've got a lot more options at your disposal. Another Karuna, and/or another Sanctus. And/or the rest of the task force just unloading into the crippled Carthage with Apocalypse spam, point-blank mass-driver shells, gauss cannon fire, and even some PDT and Burst Flak fire for the cherry on top.

1. Probably not relevant for the purposes of this discussion. I don't see huge chunks of it floating off so it's retaining most of its mass.

2. The front end of a Karuna (a lot of the front in fact) is mainly its two mass drivers. In overall size and overall mass it's at best the same. This also means that the part of the ship which will make contact is much more likely to crumple and absorb energy from the impact rather than remain rigid enough to transfer it.

Also assumes a complete lack of safety systems for the munitions, which is very much inconsistent with the need to handle ordnance safely. BP has consistently gone out of its way not to paint anyone as dumb. This ammunition is almost certainly all boresafe.

3. 60m/s still isn't that much.

4. Again, it's not like huge portions of the ship necessarily disappear.

5. Square-cube law applies only in consistent gravity. No, artificial gravity doesn't count, the mere fact they have it means they can futz with the specific gravity of any portion of the ship as they like. (Hell, there may not be reason to actually have gravity in large portions of the ship in combat, or even normally.)

6. While this is possible, the reality is it usually does make ramming contact and the mission is designed for it.

7. Ramming is by definition an option of last resort unless your ship is specifically designed for it. The Wargods are a major portion of the UEF's defense. They represent an asset years, possibly more, in the making, and are not to be sacrificed casually. If it is remotely possible to save the ships and crew then you should; only when it became clear this was no longer in the cards was ramming considered.

1. Le sigh. Okay, no chunks are flying off because the Freespace engine can't do things like that without the ship blowing up entirely. This is why you don't see chunks of anything flying off a Hecate when it's down to 1 hitpoint. Even so, what definitely DOES matter is that the Carthage's structural integrity, armor, power/systems, and damage control are all significantly compromised. The Carthage, IIRC, always ends up with between 45 and 72 percent of its health by the time the Impereiuse shows up.

2. Not really. Sure, it's not particularly dense, but it has a lot more than a couple mass drivers. It's got huge sections of thick armor plating, a half-dozen main cannons, and a good amount of structure in general. Not ideal, of course, but sufficient. Besides, it's easier when you're ramming an area whose armor has been shredded and punctured like swiss cheese (and damaged hull integrity in the entire section in general).

3. It is when you're talking about a massive warship. And again, ramming the side of a ship that's taken a huge and thorough beating in most cases (a decent beating in the rest).

4. Actually, yes, that is exactly what happens. The BGreen's pierce right through the Orion, and unless there's still Orion-matter in the pillars of gigaton-level plasma beams, that's a ton of matter that just got removed from the equation. It's also traveling in the opposite direction of the Orion's velocity, slowing it down. Then, an Orion (at least FS2-era Orions) generally does not have good speed or acceleration. Next, the Orion's structural integrity got ripped to shreds, meaning that the effectiveness of a ramming would be reduced--the ram would crumple and break apart entirely upon significant contact.

5. Not just in gravity; acceleration and other forms of force are at play as well. Square-cube law applies when you have a massive starship propelling itself with huge engines at significant speeds--if the Colossus' "skeleton" was made out of tissue paper, it would fall apart when maneuvering.

6. Same points of above apply. And if a significant number of playthroughs in the mission result in the Orion failing to even touch the Colossus, it kind of says something about how good of a ramming attempt it was in the first place (low speed, severely compromised hull integrity, brief contact with target hull before the entire ship falls apart).

7. Seemed to be a first resort for those kamikaze bombers/fighters attacking that Orion back in FS1 (which were quite destructive). Oh, and the Nelson in WiH's intro, where it literally utilized ramming as a first resort. The entire plan was to have the cruisers punch a "hole" through the formation so that the Nelson could ram the Atreus. The Nelson didn't even seem to have taken any damage prior to that, as well. Also, I think DE counts as last resort--you need that ship dead, no matter the cost.

8. The mission's name is ****ing DELENDA EST. "The Carthage must be destroyed." "Also, I think Carthage needs to be destroyed." The phrase meaning "the mentality of NEEDING to destroy X, no matter how long it takes or how difficult it might be." Everyone in the briefing repeatedly hammers home how killing the Carthage is a huge deal--it's less about the strategic or tactical victory, and more about the political one. If you believe that killing this ship will likely cause the war to lose major favor within the GTVA population (and maybe leadership), that's more valuable than capturing two Agincourts. Or three. And they're clearly not afraid to die, or to face long odds. They clearly view the destruction of the Carthage as the likely end of the war (at least figuratively) whether they survive or not. Saving a couple Karunas is really not going to help much in the long run, but killing the Carthage is a game-changer. Oh, and they all knew better than to think a frontal assault on a Titan and Chimera (complete with advanced fighters and bombers) would last more than a minute or two. So if you send the Indus and Yangtze to run because they're the only ones who can escape (wait, what about that Sanctus that jumped in with you in the beginning? Aren't cruisers more subspace maneuverable?), and the rest of the force starts tearing apart the Carthage (using it as a shield of necessary) and ramming it. It's a hell of a lot better for a diversion--I'm not sure the Imperieuse and Hydra even had to slow down as they obliterated the UEF ships one-by-one.

[NGTM-1R]

1. Le sigh. Okay, no chunks are flying off because the Freespace engine can't do things like that without the ship blowing up entirely. This is why you don't see chunks of anything flying off a Hecate when it's down to 1 hitpoint.

Assertion unsupported by evidence. Simply because the engine is not equipped to show this does not, in the end, mean jack **** about whether such damage is actually occurring, and if you can devise a method by which the UEF's particular sort of weaponry is going to remove huge portions of the ship's mass rather than do its damage by shock (explosives) and penetration (mass drivers), we'll talk again.

You would do well to reread the TVTropes page you cited earlier, particular its commentary on the efficiency of ramming attacks between spacecraft at relatively low speeds, which is directly on-point.

2. Not really. Sure, it's not particularly dense, but it has a lot more than a couple mass drivers. It's got huge sections of thick armor plating, a half-dozen main cannons, and a good amount of structure in general. Not ideal, of course, but sufficient. Besides, it's easier when you're ramming an area whose armor has been shredded and punctured like swiss cheese (and damaged hull integrity in the entire section in general).

So now you're giving both ships force-absorbing crumple zones that will reduce the efficiency of a ramming attack? Good to know! A ramming attack at such low speeds would be more effective against a pristine ship than one whose integrity is compromised.

3. It is when you're talking about a massive warship. And again, ramming the side of a ship that's taken a huge and thorough beating in most cases (a decent beating in the rest).

Ramming a considerably more massive ship. Honestly at this point you're going to rock the Carthage a little bit and kill everyone aboard the Karuna as it absorbs most of the force.

4. Actually, yes, that is exactly what happens. The BGreen's pierce right through the Orion, and unless there's still Orion-matter in the pillars of gigaton-level plasma beams, that's a ton of matter that just got removed from the equation. It's also traveling in the opposite direction of the Orion's velocity, slowing it down. Then, an Orion (at least FS2-era Orions) generally does not have good speed or acceleration. Next, the Orion's structural integrity got ripped to shreds, meaning that the effectiveness of a ramming would be reduced--the ram would crumple and break apart entirely upon significant contact.

Lies and damn lies. This happens only beneath a certain hull percentage; and Koth's usually still above it when it hits. (In all the times I've played that mission, I've never once seen the behavior you describe and the Orion make contact.) This assertion about beams having meaningful ability to change velocity vector of a capital craft is totally unsupported by any evidence from canon and can be safely discarded.

5. Not just in gravity; acceleration and other forms of force are at play as well. Square-cube law applies when you have a massive starship propelling itself with huge engines at significant speeds--if the Colossus' "skeleton" was made out of tissue paper, it would fall apart when maneuvering.

Negligible compared to gravity. Seriously, listen to yourself, you're talking about a ship that would be utterly impossible to construct inside a gravity well; the Colossus is pretty close to the size of Manhattan Island. Only in space could this exist and there's a reason for that.

6. Same points of above apply. And if a significant number of playthroughs in the mission result in the Orion failing to even touch the Colossus, it kind of says something about how good of a ramming attempt it was in the first place (low speed, severely compromised hull integrity, brief contact with target hull before the entire ship falls apart).

Well, produce the significant number without interacting with either ship then. I haven't seen it happen but one or twice. I'm suspicious it can without direct intervention of the player.

7. Seemed to be a first resort for those kamikaze bombers/fighters attacking that Orion back in FS1 (which were quite destructive).

Ships which were prepared prior to takeoff for the specific purpose of engaging in ramming attacks, by, oh yeah, the one assuredly non-rational group in all FS, the Hammer of Light. Also comparing the loss of a few fighters and bombers to the loss of an elite multi-capital strikeforce. If you can't see the problem with that comparison then I think this discussion is over, as nothing more can accomplished with it.

Oh, and the Nelson in WiH's intro, where it literally utilized ramming as a first resort. The entire plan was to have the cruisers punch a "hole" through the formation so that the Nelson could ram the Atreus. The Nelson didn't even seem to have taken any damage prior to that, as well. Also, I think DE counts as last resort--you need that ship dead, no matter the cost.

The entire intro is a far more desperate situation than Delenda Est is (at least until the arrival of the Imperieuse) and your comparison is as such incredibly poorly founded.

8. The mission's name is ****ing DELENDA EST. "The Carthage must be destroyed." "Also, I think Carthage needs to be destroyed." The phrase meaning "the mentality of NEEDING to destroy X, no matter how long it takes or how difficult it might be."  Everyone in the briefing repeatedly hammers home how killing the Carthage is a huge deal--it's less about the strategic or tactical victory, and more about the political one. If you believe that killing this ship will likely cause the war to lose major favor within the GTVA population (and maybe leadership), that's more valuable than capturing two Agincourts. Or three. And they're clearly not afraid to die, or to face long odds. They clearly view the destruction of the Carthage as the likely end of the war (at least figuratively) whether they survive or not. Saving a couple Karunas is really not going to help much in the long run, but killing the Carthage is a game-changer. Oh, and they all knew better than to think a frontal assault on a Titan and Chimera (complete with advanced fighters and bombers) would last more than a minute or two. So if you send the Indus and Yangtze to run because they're the only ones who can escape (wait, what about that Sanctus that jumped in with you in the beginning? Aren't cruisers more subspace maneuverable?), and the rest of the force starts tearing apart the Carthage (using it as a shield of necessary) and ramming it. It's a hell of a lot better for a diversion--I'm not sure the Imperieuse and Hydra even had to slow down as they obliterated the UEF ships one-by-one.

Hey, I've got news for you: the mission names aren't a form of in-universe canon, they're essentially author commentary.

There was every reason to believe the Carthage could be destroyed by more conventional and less costly tactics; lest we forget, that would have actually happened had the Imperieuse not intervened. The very fact the mission as it ultimately plays out involves no attempt to ram it when things go south can be taken as strong evidence that it wouldn't have accomplished anything that hadn't already been done. Again, BP has gone out of its way to portray no one as a fool, so your argument that people are behaving as fools requires significantly greater evidence than you have been able to muster.

There's also the minor matter that the arrival of the Imperieuse illustrates there has been a serious failure in UEF intelligence. The game is up; you have been sent on a fool's errand, likely in more ways than one. We have no reason to believe that the pretenses under which you were lured to assault the Carthage are true any more than we do the intelligence estimates which said it would be unsupported by the Imperiesue were. Steele is exactly the sort of person to remember Evil Overlord List #228, and everyone involved knows it by now.

[headdie]

SaltyWaffles, while I applaud your desire to publicly question the presented events (in deed considered posts to do this are healthy for the community), there come to the point where you have to think to yourself that regardless of if the other person(s) is right or wrong you are achieving nothing further by following the current line of thought.

I will leave most if NGTM-1R's points alone as IIRC he significantly more knowledgeable than me in this area but.

DELENDA EST = to be destroyed

without a subject the title is meaning less.  Going in the player assumes (should they translate it) that it refers to the Carthage, but as it is not referenced it could easily mean the War Gods as actually happens.

[Droid803]

Well, the term DELENDA EST comes from, historically, "CARTHAGO DELENDA EST", or "Carthage Must Be Destroyed".
They may have excised the Carthage portion from it, but it is still obvious what it's referencing, given that you know the historical usage of the phrase.

Especially since, you know, there's a ship called the GTD Carthage, that you're trying to destroy.

[headdie]

I must admit to having never come across the full phrase before and had no idea of the implication or historical context, I just guessed it was Latin and told google to translate it.

so yes to a good number the title has that implication but also the lack of the full phrase also opens up the meaning.  word games are fun eh

[redsniper]

Well, the term DELENDA EST comes from, historically, "CARTHAGO DELENDA EST", or "Carthage Must Be Destroyed".
They may have excised the Carthage portion from it, but it is still obvious what it's referencing, given that you know the historical usage of the phrase.

Especially since, you know, there's a ship called the GTD Carthage, that you're trying to destroy.

Yeah that's kind of what headdie was saying I think. You go in with the expectation that the Carthage will be destroyed, further reinforced by the mission title if you know the phrase it's derived from. And then Steele and Darius and Battuta are like "No no, we meant 'Wargods delenda est' muahahahaaha!" It's just one more layer to how you're set up to expect one thing and then totally ****ed over instead, and that's why DE and WiH in general are so great.

[SaltyWaffles]

Well, the term DELENDA EST comes from, historically, "CARTHAGO DELENDA EST", or "Carthage Must Be Destroyed".
They may have excised the Carthage portion from it, but it is still obvious what it's referencing, given that you know the historical usage of the phrase.

Especially since, you know, there's a ship called the GTD Carthage, that you're trying to destroy.

Yeah that's kind of what headdie was saying I think. You go in with the expectation that the Carthage will be destroyed, further reinforced by the mission title if you know the phrase it's derived from. And then Steele and Darius and Battuta are like "No no, we meant 'Wargods delenda est' muahahahaaha!" It's just one more layer to how you're set up to expect one thing and then totally ****ed over instead, and that's why DE and WiH in general are so great.

Except that, at the very least, the UEF/Wargods displayed the spirit/mentality of delenda est far more than anyone in the GTVA did. Destroying the Wargods was not the only major victory possible, major path to ultimate victory available, and not the ultimate revenge/triumph over one's hated foe. The Wargods, with some major assistance, stole the Agincourt and destroyed its escort, yes, but it's no humiliation or point of resentment for Steele--a high-level GTVA admiral leaked critical intel that allowed the operation to even be possible in the first place, and the UEF brought half (roughly) of its assets to bear to ensure the operation's success--and even then, Steele had managed to inflict serious losses onto the UEF, and he had a backup contingency plan in place anyway. And all of the major people involved on the GTVA's side know that, too.

[The E]

Except that, at the very least, the UEF/Wargods displayed the spirit/mentality of delenda est far more than anyone in the GTVA did.

Except that, at the very least, this does not matter in the slightest.

As has been pointed out, mission names do not exist in-universe, and are more of a sort of commentary on the mission itself. Given that they are known to the player before the mission starts, some of them are also deliberately misleading, a narrative device that goes back to Volition and "Their Finest Hour"

[redsniper]

Well, the term DELENDA EST comes from, historically, "CARTHAGO DELENDA EST", or "Carthage Must Be Destroyed".
They may have excised the Carthage portion from it, but it is still obvious what it's referencing, given that you know the historical usage of the phrase.

Especially since, you know, there's a ship called the GTD Carthage, that you're trying to destroy.

Yeah that's kind of what headdie was saying I think. You go in with the expectation that the Carthage will be destroyed, further reinforced by the mission title if you know the phrase it's derived from. And then Steele and Darius and Battuta are like "No no, we meant 'Wargods delenda est' muahahahaaha!" It's just one more layer to how you're set up to expect one thing and then totally ****ed over instead, and that's why DE and WiH in general are so great.

Except that, at the very least, the UEF/Wargods displayed the spirit/mentality of delenda est far more than anyone in the GTVA did. Destroying the Wargods was not the only major victory possible, major path to ultimate victory available, and not the ultimate revenge/triumph over one's hated foe. The Wargods, with some major assistance, stole the Agincourt and destroyed its escort, yes, but it's no humiliation or point of resentment for Steele--a high-level GTVA admiral leaked critical intel that allowed the operation to even be possible in the first place, and the UEF brought half (roughly) of its assets to bear to ensure the operation's success--and even then, Steele had managed to inflict serious losses onto the UEF, and he had a backup contingency plan in place anyway. And all of the major people involved on the GTVA's side know that, too.

You would complain about the plot holes and illogical storytelling in a history book.

[MatthTheGeek]

This is sooooo going to end up with a "the Moon landing was a lie !".

[QuakeIV]

This is sooooo going to end up with a "the Moon landing was a lie !".

Implying the moon landing was real.   

[/justkiddingbytheway]

[headdie]

self fulfilling prophesy 

[Medve]

I know the REAL ending, and it has no plotholes whatsoever.

I've read a book. What now?

[Colonol Dekker]

Make a spin-off.

[An4ximandros]

Medve, please make a deconstruction of Blue Planet analyzing the plot, the characters, the setting and comparing  it to an Evangelion with a plot that makes sense. 

[yuezhi]

I know the REAL ending, and it has no plotholes whatsoever.

I've read a book. What now?

in that case, i guess the OFFICIAL ending will disappoint you.

[Medve]

I'm not exactly sure if all of you got that reference, but I can assure you, it didn't have any seriousness whatsoever Nevertheless, I liked the actual ending of the campaign along with the story, and I'm reaaallly not into looking for/caring about plotholes (it takes away from the experience, really). Sperging out and nerdraging about it just isn't my style.

So An4ximandros, even though it is the trend to do such things, I will have to disappoint you

Dekker however, that spinoff idea sounds amazing. I'll write about that time when I got hugged by Mr. Cuddles, and how I won the war all by myself.

[Colonol Dekker]

That's the spirit!!