Author Topic: BP: War in Heaven discussion  (Read 918406 times)

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Offline -Norbert-

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Oh sorry, got the lines confused. I meant SaltyWaffles and he already answered to it.

As for the answer, I don't think we have much to compare in WiH. Both Hyperion and Leviathan only showed up in one mission each and the situations were quite different.
The Hyperion got sniped out by fighters with dedicated anti-subsystem weapons before they got much contact with the Karunas, while the Levies got caught in a full fleet action.

 
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Oh sorry, got the lines confused. I meant SaltyWaffles and he already answered to it.

As for the answer, I don't think we have much to compare in WiH. Both Hyperion and Leviathan only showed up in one mission each and the situations were quite different.
The Hyperion got sniped out by fighters with dedicated anti-subsystem weapons before they got much contact with the Karunas, while the Levies got caught in a full fleet action.

The Hyperion was featured in quite a number of missions in AoA.

The Aeolus is featured in a number of missions in WiH; however, it is also featured even more in FS2--alongside the Leviathan. In Delenda Est, the Leviathan cruisers are nowhere near as significant or effectual as the Aeolus cruisers--IIRC, the main reason either of the Levis in that level are still in-mission around the time the Hanuman is obliterated is that they're largely ignored by the Wargods, who are concentrating on the Carthage and the rest of her screen (including the Aeolus's). As far as point-defense goes, the Aeolus still wins out in everything except warhead interception, which is probably where the Levis help--four PDB's, in this case TerSlashBlue-AAA's along with more blob turrets--and provide some support against warhead spam to the Carthage.
Delenda Est delenda est.

(Yay gratuitous Latin.)

  

Offline Mars

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Oh sorry, got the lines confused. I meant SaltyWaffles and he already answered to it.

As for the answer, I don't think we have much to compare in WiH. Both Hyperion and Leviathan only showed up in one mission each and the situations were quite different.
The Hyperion got sniped out by fighters with dedicated anti-subsystem weapons before they got much contact with the Karunas, while the Levies got caught in a full fleet action.

The Hyperion was featured in quite a number of missions in AoA.

The Aeolus is featured in a number of missions in WiH; however, it is also featured even more in FS2--alongside the Leviathan. In Delenda Est, the Leviathan cruisers are nowhere near as significant or effectual as the Aeolus cruisers--IIRC, the main reason either of the Levis in that level are still in-mission around the time the Hanuman is obliterated is that they're largely ignored by the Wargods, who are concentrating on the Carthage and the rest of her screen (including the Aeolus's). As far as point-defense goes, the Aeolus still wins out in everything except warhead interception, which is probably where the Levis help--four PDB's, in this case TerSlashBlue-AAA's along with more blob turrets--and provide some support against warhead spam to the Carthage.


Freakin try taking those Levis out, and tell me how that goes for you. Really.

From what I remember, they're tough as nails, and their engine and AAA beams are uparmored

 

Offline QuakeIV

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
I think the problem with them is its perfectly safe to ignore them and let them be anti-mattered into photons.

 

Offline Black_Yoshi1230

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Freakin try taking those Levis out, and tell me how that goes for you. Really.

From what I remember, they're tough as nails, and their engine and AAA beams are uparmored

I died by the Systema's hand. A lot. Even the frigate engaging the Iolanthe got killed by the Systema (at least six times pre-Karuna fix, according to the events sheet) despite driving the two last Deimos corvettes out.

My advice? Just equip the Archer, go to third person mode, and shoot at whatever rear-flank beam is facing you.

I think the problem with them is its perfectly safe to ignore them and let them be anti-mattered into photons.

You're making me think the question "why couldn't we have Jackhammers for our gunships in that mission?" (yes, the Uriel can hold Jackhammers.)
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Offline Mars

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Those Fusion Mortars are still weak as ****, but they do a lot more damage than they look like they should.

 
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion

Freakin try taking those Levis out, and tell me how that goes for you. Really.

From what I remember, they're tough as nails, and their engine and AAA beams are uparmored

It goes relatively fine, actually. As long as you stay out of PDB range, the only thing of concern about them is their fusion mortars, which are large and exposed--Archer them. After that, your allied warships will torpedo them to death.

And it's probably better to use data from post-Karuna patch, as pre-Karuna patch had issues like 'Katana dies, most of the damage done to it was from...the Katana'. The Systema might have been a bigger problem back them because it was simply closer to a given Karuna, which causes its self-damage to go through the roof (hence, death).

Delenda Est delenda est.

(Yay gratuitous Latin.)

 
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Just wanted to register to express my appreciation for one of the best experiences in my last 15 years of gaming- this mod features a depth of narrative, world building and internal consistency that positively dwarfs the vast majority of "triple A" titles, not to mention gameplay that is both exciting and complex, a very difficult feat indeed.

What I like most is the nuanced and sophisticated take on questions of philosophy and human nature regarding the ethics of war, the mindsets of the invader and the defender are brought into sharp focus and the contrasts between them make much of the human drama. Most impressively, many of these questions are explored via the gameplay itself, rather than simply communicated via the narrative- the free natured yet brittle, disparate yet resourceful UEF fleets struggling to merely disable the deadly beam spam of the relentless, co-ordinated GTVA warmachine, itself roiling with its own internal contradictions and a victim of its irresistible momentum.

Every time a GTVA ship jumps out after having its weapons destroyed despite the best efforts of the UEF to finish them off, you can sense the hopelessness and frustration of the defender, just as you can sense their shock and despair as the GTVA beams almost instantly carve apart their best. The inequality of war and its psychological impact are rarely communicated in western game development, which mainly seeks to glorify it or sanitise it, for reasons of gory gratification or thinly veiled propaganda justifying current and past conflicts, e.g all WW2 shooters, COD series, Homefront and any games featuring "us vs terrorists" plots. Neither is it dealt with well in Japanese game development, which tend to be very heavy handed in their approach, simply serving to reveal  the developers lack of life experience and understanding of historical conflicts.

The emotional hooks the player develops to individual ships and his War Gods' team mates are both subtly and organically embedded, they are a function of the desperate, system-wide conflict raging around the player and the knowledge that, despite his best efforts, his influence in these proceedings is limited, if nonetheless important. Every ally ship saved brings satisfying relief and the gratification that yes, in this small corner of the theatre, I made a difference (I cant count the number of times I replayed Aristeia to ensure that both Sanctus cruisers survived).

This is as far away from the cynical and overtly heavy handed "connection" the developers of Bioshock, (to take an example of a much lauded mainstream "mature" title) thrust upon the players in the form of the little sisters. Any feelings of protectiveness from the player or the moral dilemma  the creators were ham-handedly trying to impose fell flat instantly, despite being a central feature of the game. In contrast, neither the Dea Bricta nor the Auxerre had any relevance to the plot aside from the mission they were featured in and their survival was ultimately insignificant in the success of mission, yet despite that I want to save them. Everytime.

As an aside, Blue Planet really deserves to be played through using a top end pair of headphones, on a properly amplified pair of Sennheiser HD800 Delenda Est is truly awe-inspiring, the chaos of the battlefield is really well portrayed, with flak pounding into your ears, bombs exploding and laserfire effects swarming all around you in multiple layers. And when the swelling chorus of immediatemusic3 kicks in, it sends down chills down the spine like nothing else I've experienced in gaming.
If this part also featured voice-acting, my brain would inevitably shut down from the combination sensory and emotional overload :)

A cheaper pair of AKG K701s would also do this mission justice (yes I'm a bit of a headphone geek)
All BP players should experience it!

Thanks for the amazing work you guys; I eagerly await the next installment :)


 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Well that is quite the supportive feedback! I'm sure they'll appreciate it specially when put so eloquently. Also, welcome to HLPBB!

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Thanks so much, that was a fantastic and fulfilling response.

 

Offline Crybertrance

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<21:08:30>   Hartzaden fires a slammer at Cybertrance
<21:09:13>   Crybertrance pops flares, but wonders how Hartzaden acquired aspect lock on a stealth fighter... :\
<21:11:58>   *** The_E joined #bp [email protected]
21:11:58   +++ ChanServ has given op to The_E
<21:12:58>   Hartzaden continues to paint crybertrance and feeding the info to a wing of gunships
<21:14:07>   Crybertrance sends emergency "IM GETING MY ASS KICKED HERE!!!!eleventy NEED HELPZZZZ" to 3rd fleet command
<21:14:50>   Hartzaden jamms the transmission.
<21:14:51>   The_E explodes the sun

 

Offline Mars

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion

Freakin try taking those Levis out, and tell me how that goes for you. Really.

From what I remember, they're tough as nails, and their engine and AAA beams are uparmored

It goes relatively fine, actually. As long as you stay out of PDB range, the only thing of concern about them is their fusion mortars, which are large and exposed--Archer them. After that, your allied warships will torpedo them to death.

And it's probably better to use data from post-Karuna patch, as pre-Karuna patch had issues like 'Katana dies, most of the damage done to it was from...the Katana'. The Systema might have been a bigger problem back them because it was simply closer to a given Karuna, which causes its self-damage to go through the roof (hence, death).



Wait, did you actually try this? Because I don't believe you did. I am NOT saying they could survive the full fury of three Karunas at all, only that a single Uriel needs to go to considerable effort in order to really put a dent in one. Take one of those out and still win the mission and you've only partially negated my point. Keep in mind their AAA beams are weaker too.

 
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion

Freakin try taking those Levis out, and tell me how that goes for you. Really.

From what I remember, they're tough as nails, and their engine and AAA beams are uparmored

It goes relatively fine, actually. As long as you stay out of PDB range, the only thing of concern about them is their fusion mortars, which are large and exposed--Archer them. After that, your allied warships will torpedo them to death.

And it's probably better to use data from post-Karuna patch, as pre-Karuna patch had issues like 'Katana dies, most of the damage done to it was from...the Katana'. The Systema might have been a bigger problem back them because it was simply closer to a given Karuna, which causes its self-damage to go through the roof (hence, death).



Wait, did you actually try this? Because I don't believe you did. I am NOT saying they could survive the full fury of three Karunas at all, only that a single Uriel needs to go to considerable effort in order to really put a dent in one. Take one of those out and still win the mission and you've only partially negated my point. Keep in mind their AAA beams are weaker too.

Yes, I actually did try it. Several times. With the Archer alone, I was doing more than putting a dent into it--however, I was giving it most of my attention as a result. In general, the Aeolus cruisers on that mission are much easier to disarm, but far deadlier to be engaged with (assuming you aren't staying out of range, using the Archer). Even if the Aeolus and Leviathan cruisers in that mission are a bit different in terms of durability, it's hardly the kind of difference that would be one of the distinguishing qualities of the Hyperion class. Really, the Hyperion's advances in durability over the Aeolus come from its far greater warhead intercept capability and the longer range of its main point defenses--in the form of its STerPulses over the flaks.
Delenda Est delenda est.

(Yay gratuitous Latin.)

 

Offline Darius

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Thread surgery performed. Carry on!

 
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Okay, quick question:

Given the dedication to realism in many aspects in BP/WiH, one scene has me rather curious: the proximity of the Indus to the Sun in Sunglare. This isn't exactly an esoteric nitpick, as it was the first thought I had when I first saw that scene. I was wondering how a Karuna--let alone one as badly damaged as the Indus--was able to hang out so close to the Sun without being melted away in short order. Granted, it's still a matter of hours before the crew dies from radiation, but I'm thinking more along the lines of 'why isn't it a melting hunk in *minutes*?'

I know FS ships are rather jarringly durable for the time period (even a cruiser can survive a pair of massive antimatter torpedoes, albeit barely), but that close to the Sun...it's not just the shear amount of energy hitting the ship at a constant rate--it's constant, extremely intense heat exposure to a ship with many gaping holes in its main armor and other systems (especially some of its engines, which sort of leaves the reactors/engineering behind that wide open, so to speak). With the entire front section of the ship particularly exposed and the fighterbay wrecked, how is the Indus capable of lasting as long (and as well) as it did?

About its distress call: as I'm no physics expert (which also applies to the thing above), how impressive is it that the Masyaf/Fedayeen picked up the Indus's distress call *at all*, and could one reasonably expect it for them to have picked it up sooner? What are the various factors involved for helping and hurting the Indus's attempts to reach anyone for help in that situation (with any kind of communications, deployable beacons, subspace capable craft or escape pods, etc)?

((Also, side question: when the Masyaf guy on comms says "We are not Fleet. We are Fedayeen", does he mean that the entire/majority of the crew are Fedayeen, or the command crew, or just himself, or the entire special assignment fleet is Fedayeen, or what?))

Sorry for the question dump--I'm just very curious. And don't get me wrong--visually speaking, Sunglare is just plain amazing and highly memorable, but the music and camera angles round out the scene beautifully.
Delenda Est delenda est.

(Yay gratuitous Latin.)

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
For the "how did they find em" part, I wouldn't be surprised if the Fedayeen just followed Laporte's Nagari trail. Or something.

Also, I think I heard that the Masyaf may have been assigned to guard the UEF antimatter farms, which are in close proximity to the Sun too. Maybe the Indus ended up close enough for the Masyaf to detect the distress call. Or something.
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Offline The E

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Quote
With the entire front section of the ship particularly exposed and the fighterbay wrecked, how is the Indus capable of lasting as long (and as well) as it did?

Because things. Also, thermal roll. Also also, dealing with one continuous source of radiation is a different environment than combat. Different damage-mitigation strategies apply (And it can be assumed that all that "shield generators and nanorepair stuff embedded into the hull" stuff comes into play).

To quote an old saying, "How does the Heisenberg Compensator work?" "Very well, thank you."

Quote
how impressive is it that the Masyaf/Fedayeen picked up the Indus's distress call *at all*, and could one reasonably expect it for them to have picked it up sooner?

Very, and no.

Quote
((Also, side question: when the Masyaf guy on comms says "We are not Fleet. We are Fedayeen", does he mean that the entire/majority of the crew are Fedayeen, or the command crew, or just himself, or the entire special assignment fleet is Fedayeen, or what?))

Yes.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2012, 11:55:30 am by The E »
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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
For the "how did they find em" part, I wouldn't be surprised if the Fedayeen just followed Laporte's Nagari trail. Or something.
...that's actually rather genius. I hadn't thought of that. Of course, couldn't that mean that the GalTevs can do the same?

Quote
Also, I think I heard that the Masyaf may have been assigned to guard the UEF antimatter farms, which are in close proximity to the Sun too. Maybe the Indus ended up close enough for the Masyaf to detect the distress call. Or something.
Quite possible, though I have no idea how close Mercury would be to the Sun in that situation, given just visuals alone. But yeah, I always figured that the Masyaf (as well as some other ships) were assigned to patrol/guard the various critical assets near deep solar orbit.

---

The E: good point with regards to the damage control and active repair systems; the UEF frigates are rather well-known for their ability to quickly recover from most damage if given enough time after/in-between fights.

And thanks for the answers about the Masyaf's (et al?) feat with regards to finding the Indus. If anyone knows specifics about the physics challenges involved in such a feat, I'd love to hear about them. Anything being that close to the Sun is practically awesome by default.
Delenda Est delenda est.

(Yay gratuitous Latin.)

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Quite possible, though I have no idea how close Mercury would be to the Sun in that situation, given just visuals alone. But yeah, I always figured that the Masyaf (as well as some other ships) were assigned to patrol/guard the various critical assets near deep solar orbit.
AFAIK, the antimatter farms aren't at Mercury, they are in close solar orbit in order to get the best solar energy output for antimatter generation. It's supposed to be close enough that any attempt from the Tevs to attack it without extremely precise navigation data (which are probably all the harder to get when you get so close to the sun's gravitational influence) would result in their ships to get seriously melted before they could deal any kind of serious damage.

(and obviously, the Tevs don't want to assault it anyway because getting those farms intact is one of the main reasons they wanted Sol in the first place, but that's a different story)
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
It shouldn't be too hard to work out the Indus' distance from the sun from one's fov settings and a little trig. However, that scene is already inaccurate: you can't be in a "decaying orbit" unless you're actually inside the atmosphere of the thing you're orbiting, and the Indus would be slag long before getting that close.
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