[Apollo]

I know the Vishnans aren't based on the Christian God. I was referring to how

Spoiler:

Bei was absolutely convinced they were good despite much evidence to the contrary, and he blamed humanity for their anger and dismissal; the whole conversation was reminiscent of a Christian fundamentalist arguing with an atheist (although in this case both people believed in the Vishnans)

[Apollo]

Arrgh damn messed up computer won't let me edit posts...

Well, I think Battuta's watching this thread right now. Hopefully he'll address that particular point.

[QuakeIV]

I think they may have been going for brainwashed, though I also mean no offense to Christians, myself being a Christian and having been mildly offended. (at least initially)

It seemed like they were going less for a 'lul im now a remote controlled vishanan drone' and more like he actually believed what he was saying on the deepest of possible levels.  Which when I think about it makes it all the more disturbing to me.

[Apollo]

I wasn't bashing Christianity, although I felt like the subtext was—well, maybe I'm overanalyzing it.

Spoiler:

I thought the Vishnans altered Samuel's brain to make him completely loyal to them.

[QuakeIV]

Yeah, more or less what I was thinking.  Disturbingly effective it seems.

[General Battuta]

Really, who could trust someone who'd been in lifelong Nagari contact with an alien power to be objective?

[MatthTheGeek]

(Which, conveniently, can be applied for the both of them)

[bigchunk1]

Yea, Laporte is going to betray her people and become the next kerrigan queen of the shivans.

[Ryuseiken]

Well act one was called Chrysalis...

[An4ximandros]

Simms: You are beyond redemption, I'll see you dead for this Laporte!

Beta Aquilae, GTVA Shipyards; Thea Carey: "'Bout time we kicked this revolution into overdrive."

 Final mission takes place on Nagariland and the goal is to use some ancient Brahman technomagic device to kill save Laporte.

EDIT: I have been redoing AoA... wow, almost everything feels like it has a hidden meaning to it now. Frankenstein's Monster briefing just reeks of something other than what I felt first time I played.

[Apollo]

Yeah, it sort of foreshadows

Spoiler:

what would eventually happen to Sam.

Looking back on it, Samuel's brainwashing is actually pretty noticeable throughout AoA. He goes from fearing the Vishnans to accepting them in only a few days (if my sense of time is accurate.) By Tenebra, he views them as holy beings and finds it impossible to consider any alternative. Bei worships the Vishnans, although this probably has more to do with them ****ing up his brain then with any logical errors on his part.

Well, at this point humanity's fate rests with two alien beings/races of godlike power. One of them can psychically enslave human beings with little or no effort while pretending to be benevolent, and the other possesses a military with dozens of juggernauts and seemingly inexhaustible numbers. Actually, both the Vishnans and the Shivans are capable of the first one. The Vishnans seem to use it a lot more, but there is at least one instance (Noemi's interaction with Ken) where the Shivans could easily have been doing it too. Speaking of than, Tenebra seems to portray the Shivans in a more positive light than the Vishnans; but let's not forget that they tried to destroy the Terrans and Vasudans, and it may still be their ultimate objective. Laporte (and Ken?) could have been shown a false picture.

Well, at least we can shoot down their fighters. That has to count for something. Right?

[General Battuta]

I think that's a viable read of what happened but I'm curious as to why you think it's the only conceivable interpretation.

[Apollo]

Spoiler:

You mean the Shivans and/or Ken lying? I don't think that's the only possibility, but after seeing how completely the Vishnans were able to twist Samuel's perception of things in AoA I'm inclined to be pessimistic.

At this point, I'm suspicious of anything that seems to put any moral slant on the battle between Shivans and Vishnans.

[Ryuseiken]

Spoiler:

Does Tenebra really paint the Shivans in a more positive light though? The Vishnans used the Elders as puppets to achieve some long lasting goal, probably to become viable to fuse with the 'Summer Psyche', whatever that is. The Shivans/Ken are basically holding a gun to the head of the human race and saying that Laporte needs to help the Shivans further their goals, whatever that turns out to be, or else.

Both sides are pretty much using humanity as tools for an unknown purpose, the only difference I can see being how open they are about it. If we can serve their goals in some way then we are useful for the moment, if we stop being useful we'll be tossed aside. We aren't worth being hated or pitied by them any more than a broken hammer would be worth hating to us.

[General Battuta]

I mean the Vishnans brainwashing Sam.

[Apollo]

I mean the Vishnans brainwashing Sam.

Well, I guess it's possible that he just really, really wants to believe them, but the language he used makes me think otherwise.

Spoiler:

Does Tenebra really paint the Shivans in a more positive light though? The Vishnans used the Elders as puppets to achieve some long lasting goal, probably to become viable to fuse with the 'Summer Psyche', whatever that is. The Shivans/Ken are basically holding a gun to the head of the human race and saying that Laporte needs to help the Shivans further their goals, whatever that turns out to be, or else.

Both sides are pretty much using humanity as tools for an unknown purpose, the only difference I can see being how open they are about it. If we can serve their goals in some way then we are useful for the moment, if we stop being useful we'll be tossed aside. We aren't worth being hated or pitied by them any more than a broken hammer would be worth hating to us.

Spoiler:

Tenebra portrays the Shivans more positively in an emotional sense. They're still no better than the Vishnans (probably).

[QuakeIV]

They are unrepentant assholes that would wipe us out.  Just now there is something of an apparent reason for that so it seems less bad.

[Apollo]

Both sides are unrepentant assholes who have about as much empathy for humanity as we have for ants. One prefers enslavement and one prefers destruction, but they can and will use both.

One side may be portrayed better than the other, but both seem to be fairly even morally.

[GrahamO]

My two penn'th ....

Remember that the Vishnans said that humanity should be preserved because they build communities out of warring factions ? The first storyline was about a 'hero' of the GTVA doing the right thing, the second storyline when complete will be about Laporte 'doing the right thing' and probably refusing to do something to the GTVA which would drive a wedge between humanity factions and the Vasudans, and the third part will be when the GTVA, the Vasudans and the UEF all come together as the Vishnans predicted, to kick the Shivans good and proper.

Its so similar to Bablylon 5 in many ways with the Shadows, the Vorlons and the First Ones, with the Humanity/Vasudan pairing similar to the Human/Minbari thread.

Just my views - it may have been said in the previous 200 pages but I must admit I have not checked.

[niffiwan]

I think Laporte (currently) has too much hatred for the GTVA to consider 'doing the right thing'.  e.g. one of the command briefings from early in Act3 where she's talking about

Spoiler:

her thoughts on killing the Elder

And the person she seems to be listening to most (i.e. Ken) has literally said, "You must destroy the GTVA"...