Author Topic: BP: War in Heaven discussion  (Read 918094 times)

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Offline General Battuta

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Spoiler:
It's actually sort of amusing to me now - I just got through reading the thread started by FSF about how BP forgot BP and I remember something about how WiH 2 was trying to avoid "Alpha 1" syndrome by mixing up the formula, but I felt it was really WiH 1 that averted it and now we've gone a few steps back. WiH 1 was powerful to me because we, as the players, rarely taste failure and hopelessness. It would have been nice to see at least a few things go wrong, even if they weren't catastrophic.

Super disagree with this. The Fedayeen succeed in Tenebra for most of the same reasons the GTVA succeeds in Act 1/2. That's made explicit and examined in the story, and it has nothing to do with Alpha 1 syndrome.

 

Offline TwentyPercentCooler

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Spoiler:
It's actually sort of amusing to me now - I just got through reading the thread started by FSF about how BP forgot BP and I remember something about how WiH 2 was trying to avoid "Alpha 1" syndrome by mixing up the formula, but I felt it was really WiH 1 that averted it and now we've gone a few steps back. WiH 1 was powerful to me because we, as the players, rarely taste failure and hopelessness. It would have been nice to see at least a few things go wrong, even if they weren't catastrophic.

Super disagree with this. The Fedayeen succeed in Tenebra for most of the same reasons the GTVA succeeds in Act 1/2. That's made explicit and examined in the story, and it has nothing to do with Alpha 1 syndrome.

To clarify, I know the canonical reasons why it plays out the way it does and I don't think it's completely out in left field or anything like that. I just meant that I think emotions in a narrative have a sort of topography (you'd probably know far better than I, though, what with being a writer and all :p ). It's hard to explain, but I just didn't connect with it as well as I did with the first release. Success is exhilarating, but constant success sours pretty quickly. That being said, I probably shouldn't have used the "Alpha 1 Syndrome" label, because that isn't really what it is. From a gameplay standpoint, it's very well-averted. I also know that Tenebra wasn't meant to be stand-alone, so I definitely am looking forward to knowing where you guys are going with all of this. I wasn't disappointed in this release from an overall standpoint, though. Not even close.

 

Offline qwadtep

  • 28
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
And I think we have to recall that price for that success is Laporte's self-destructive catharsis. I think if you showed Laporte now to Laporte at the beginning of Act 1, she'd be absolutely horrified.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Spoiler:
It's actually sort of amusing to me now - I just got through reading the thread started by FSF about how BP forgot BP and I remember something about how WiH 2 was trying to avoid "Alpha 1" syndrome by mixing up the formula, but I felt it was really WiH 1 that averted it and now we've gone a few steps back. WiH 1 was powerful to me because we, as the players, rarely taste failure and hopelessness. It would have been nice to see at least a few things go wrong, even if they weren't catastrophic.

Super disagree with this. The Fedayeen succeed in Tenebra for most of the same reasons the GTVA succeeds in Act 1/2. That's made explicit and examined in the story, and it has nothing to do with Alpha 1 syndrome.

To clarify, I know the canonical reasons why it plays out the way it does and I don't think it's completely out in left field or anything like that. I just meant that I think emotions in a narrative have a sort of topography (you'd probably know far better than I, though, what with being a writer and all :p ). It's hard to explain, but I just didn't connect with it as well as I did with the first release. Success is exhilarating, but constant success sours pretty quickly. That being said, I probably shouldn't have used the "Alpha 1 Syndrome" label, because that isn't really what it is. From a gameplay standpoint, it's very well-averted. I also know that Tenebra wasn't meant to be stand-alone, so I definitely am looking forward to knowing where you guys are going with all of this. I wasn't disappointed in this release from an overall standpoint, though. Not even close.

Constant failure sours pretty quickly too. Remember, this story was outlined - well in advance - as five acts, meant to be delivered at once; a lot of what people react to (wingmen less relatable, for instance) has to be viewed in the lens of what came before. Laporte needs time to heal, she can't just start making new friends - and the player's just spent two whole acts being beaten into the floor over and over again.

 

Offline Fury

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Other campaigns have had unconventional missions, but they were usually sprinkled among more traditional fare. It's like icing on a cake. Icing is tasty, but too much of it in one place, without finding a balance, will overpower the cake. In Tenebra's case, it was actually almost like eating a whole bowl of icing.
One should keep in mind that Tenebra is only one piece of a bigger campaign, like WiH1 is. And that campaign isn't over yet. When comparing to WiH1, also keep in mind that WiH1 had two acts while WiH2 has only one. While hard to do because of episodic releases, one should think of WiH as one big campaign and draw comparisons from that big picture. But at the moment the big picture isn't finished yet, as we're only at the half-way point in the campaign.

Act 3 was definitely a departure from standard missions and perhaps it might have been better if act 3 had been released together with act 4 at a later date to cover wider variety of mission types. While I have not played finished act 3, I did play it when it was still in beta. Act 3 practically consisted of only the kind of missions I don't care much for, despite of how good the fredding behind these missions were. Just like many of you, I was thinking of act 3 as stand-alone campaign, which it is not. In the future when you play finished WiH from first to last act, I am sure you can appreciate act 3 a lot more than you do now.

 

Offline rubixcube

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Sorry to go off topic, but who in the BP team played amnesia: the dark descent? I just noticed that many of the sound effects from universal truth are from that game.
Stuff

 

Offline Mars

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
So, something I just noticed about one future: Even if the SOC gets brought in, the McDuff wipes the floor with them.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
So, something I just noticed about one future: Even if the SOC gets brought in, the McDuff wipes the floor with them.

This probably depends heavily on whether you're playing with a build in which the AI can't properly target subsystems (this includes 3.6.16 and the BP build I believe).

It's a shame we released with builds like this. I feel like our missions got a lot harder for a lot of people because -

-All weapon damage and ROF was locked on Insane
-AI couldn't reliably hit subsystems, like the Carthage engines

 

Offline Mars

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Yeah, it was with a BP .17 build

 

Offline Klaustrophobia

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
-All weapon damage and ROF was locked on Insane
-AI couldn't reliably hit subsystems, like the Carthage engines


orly?  i guess it's a good thing then that i didn't waste a bunch of time ordering wings around to strip turrets and subsystems. 

the insane level AI didn't cause me all that much extra trouble, since the majority of the campaign was spent in a stealth fighter trying to avoid getting shot at.  sidhe-assassinate, then run like hell for 5 seconds.
I like to stare at the sun.

 

Offline Kolgena

  • 211
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
I didn't know about the subsystem problem. I would warp in gunships and durgas to focus down the engine, address other objectives myself, and come back to dead reinforcements and an engine at high health.

 

Offline James Razor

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  • New Eden Veteran.
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
I didn't know about the subsystem problem. I would warp in gunships and durgas to focus down the engine, address other objectives myself, and come back to dead reinforcements and an engine at high health.

Well, i tryed a couple of tactics in that mission agains the Carthage and this pretty much explains a lot of issues i had with that mission.


On a side note: I do not agree that the player gets beaten up all that much in the first 2 acts. I mean, u capture the Agincourt and u do give the Meridian a beating.

Ok, granted: i think i never cursed so badly or that much like after the mission at saturn failed, but tbh.: Capella going Supernova wasnt that much better.

 
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
So, something I just noticed about one future: Even if the SOC gets brought in, the McDuff wipes the floor with them.

Wait, you can bring in the SOC in One Future? How? Because I've been looking for a way to defeat the Morena on insane...

 

Offline Klaustrophobia

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
i think the trigger is capturing the station before you destroy the macduff.  i've had them arrive.  it looked to me like they were invulnerable.  they were taking a good bit of fire from the macduff's PD turrets but never died.
I like to stare at the sun.

 
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Hello

It's waaaay too late, but I've just spent the entire day consuming this work of art here, and now after reading some of this thread, I've got to leave my $0.02 about what I've just gone through. Some background about where I'm coming from: I'm an ArmA II player, I play that game for it's immersing, demanding, cruel and intellectually intense and often unique challenges. I play a lot of ArmA II, it's probably the game I spend the most time on. As for Blue Planet, I can't really say what keeps me here, because there is no defining feature of Blue Planet that keeps me playing it. I couldn't really care about what country the USMC invades in ArmA II, but the GTVA invading Sol has much more relevance to me.

When I played War in Heaven R1 I was blown away, first by how the smooth, lethal and fast-paced gameplay led me to believe that the GTVA and UEF were truly dueling with next-generation equipment. Uhlans, Nyx and Kentaurois effortlessly screamed around aging Perseus and Myrmidon fighters in a way that felt much more visceral than what vanilla freespace had ever offered me. Layered onto that feeling was the raw mission design, all of the missions were memorable merely because of how much thought and effort went into defining them from the freespace 2 campaign, and those corner-stone missions: Aristeia, Delenda Est, Post-Meridian, The Blade Itself, only helped to define the campaign even further. I never thought that I would get an emotional response outside of excitement from a Freespace game, or much any space-simulator, but I've found plenty of excitement and much more from blue planet, and that's probably one of the biggest things keeping me here.

To be honest, in terms of gameplay, you folks are outmached. You're not Mechwarrior: Living Legends who deals with a fairly new version of Cryengine, you're talking an old, patched-up space game from 1999 and telling it to do things that it was never intended to do. However, despite the obvious hurdles that you must overcome to do what you have to do, you still manage to get it done and create, in my opinion, one of the strongest semi-linear experiences around, and this takes me to Act 3.

When I had found that there was a new release for blue planet I was esctatic, I was expecting more of the same from Act 2 - heart pounding action and lots of reading. I got a lot of that, lots of heart pounding action and some fantastic reading - more on that later - but then I got something that I didn't expect, a flavor of gameplay that I haven't seen in a long time, a lack of repetition. Act 3 took one basic concept, you're a stealth ninja who can blow things up fast, and built an entire doctrine around it. You crafted a campaign where every single mission was unique, where they all - save for two - adhered to this "stealth" concept and executed it in a way that was completely unique from the others. Just as you get used to one concept in time to master it for a mission, it's disposed of and quickly replaced with a new mechanic. In the first mission, we use our stealth to weave between ships in a convoy and rapidly inflict damage; in mission 2, we operate under the mindset that when the enemy finds us, we had better have everything ready; in mission 3, the ninja ship turns from commander, to saboteur, back to commander again in a short span, it's a lot to take in each time, and this is something that, for me, absolutely murders the game's replay value.
However, this isn't a bad thing at all, a huge part of this campaign is simply discovering how things work and putting together a sub-optimal strategy that pulls you to a narrow victory. It's romantic, and replaying the mission kills the romance of having to solve that puzzle. I miss the mechanics of each mission like I miss a TV show that just happened to be of the right length: while I wish there were more of it, it's better to have it show up and shine brightly now than to burn itself out in the future.

I will make one exception to this though, I WILL be playing Universal Truth over and over again to see all of the different endings. I must have intentionally failed it around 7 times now just to see how it all works: first I looked when I was told not to, then I looked with Track IR, then I used time compression to see what happens when I didn't fly into the Dante, and I uplinked to the Simms jump node in the dream, I even played all the way through just so I could see what happens when I refused to "jack out of the matrix" during the Delenda Est scene. I absolutely adore this design philosophy that you guys have taken so far, I really hope to see more of this style in the future. Overcoming the challenges presented by new gameplay features is an amazing thing in my eyes, especially when they're built upon tried and true mechanics - we're still shooting things after all - and it comes with a fantastic story to boot, which leads me onto my next point.

Act 3 had a very strange shooting to reading ratio even when compared to Act 2. For a space-simulation in the modern era, this was unheard of. To me, it was also refreshing, and it made the combat all the better when I had gotten to it. WIHA3 plays more like an interactive novel than a shoot-em-up, more like a simulation than an arcade-game, more like something that's trying to be a book. To me it's riveting, everywhere I went I wanted to learn more about the Federation, the GTVA, and the Fedayeen and the Universe around me. I spent the time to fly to the firewalls in the dreamscape simply to see if there was anything that could be interacted with, and then you sent me to a 15 page briefing written in traditional five-paragraph order. As an ArmA 2 player, this briefing was exceptionally familiar and touching to me - it hit right at home! I write and deliver briefings like this on a regular basis when I play ArmA II, and I found myself getting into the same preparation that I would for a long military simulation in a game with "beam cannons" and subspace jumps. That level of realism and immersion is unmatched in most games nowadays, I bought it, took it home, tried it on and squealed over it.

This is why I can't figure out why I keep coming back to Blue Planet.

As for the reading, I can't say anything bad over it. Not particularly sure that any amount of voice overs could really help at this point. The Vishan-Shivan dialogue was a nice change of pace, but only because they're mindless aliens who are going to murder everyone if they don't fit into their plans. After reading so much text, Ken, Olifumi, Simms, Laporte and Steele all have their own voices now, I've given them voices, I've assigned them tones and I've read out their lines with the choir of voices in my own mind. To be honest, it was a lot to get used to, it took me several playthroughs of WiHR1 to get used to it and hell, I still use the F4 button to go back through that message log after I've managed to evade a missile and have missed dialogue. It doesn't slow down the action for me to delve into the characters, every shot fired, every enemy spaceframe downed, every line of text read has significance, and for me, if it takes me a little bit longer to get through it, then it's only a sign of how well it's been put together, and how much respect I've deserved.

This is been an utterly disheveled rant by a fanboy who's spent too much of his vacation time before school playing this game, I'm just going to conclude with one last bit before I tell more people to buy this game simply so we can talk about it's single player.

I loved this piece. It's excited me, tugged on my heart-strings, tickled my brain, piqued my interest, and sent marines to secure a long-standing place in my memory.  Everything was perfect and I hope to see more of this in acts 4 and 5. More careful reading, more decision making, more learning, more misty-eyes.

-Judah

I'm pretty sure that I'm going to be Perfectly Fine waiting for the next one.

Spoiler:
Oh yeah, I managed to blow up the Jupiter spacestation and that GTM Something that was docked to it during Everything is Permitted by hacking into one of the Mjolnirs near the Atreus. Pretty sure that Steele isn't going too happy about that, even though he didn't seem to care. I tried to screenshot it so I could put it in this post but I wasn't running in a window at the time, so I'll have to do it again.

« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 05:14:10 am by providence932 »

  

Offline cio

  • 23
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Just finished my venture into Tenebra. So many new levels of awesomeness, but that's just what you would expect from Blue Planet, wouldn't you.

I couldn't get it to run on my linux box and after a lot of experimenting with different settings, replacing system libraries with custom builds, and crawling through debug logs, I decided it must be the fault of the stupid Intel graphics chip.  :banghead:
Things would be easier for the advanced linux user with a link to the cvs or wherever the bp source is hosted. Precompiled binaries have the habit of not matching the library versions and files on your system.

I installed everything on my macbook and the build for mac worked fine there with no hacking. (though a few random crashes and lockups occured, but not to an annoying extent).

And now to the action:
Pros:
-Great soundtrack
-Excellent writing
-Not so long ago fs2 mods were centered around shooting down enemies like clay ducks that are too stupid to mind you shooting them. This has evolved into an immersive experience with more realistic ai that will kill you instantly if you try a "Charge-of-the-Light-Brigade". Tenebra takes this one level further: tactics and stealth over force. Though in one or two missions I wished I could fly an old-fashioned bomber with a couple of nukes and take care of the Carthage "the old fashioned way".


Cons:
-I don't have troubles with reading a lot of text, but sometimes the information was just too dense for me. I never quite understood who or what al-dawa was, for instance. And sometimes - especially in the last "nightmare" mission - reading your messages seems like reading Finnegan's wake. Experimental narrative style the Shivan way..

Spoiler:
-I hacked a mjolnir in the assassination mission and ordered it to attack Artemis station. Then I turned to take care of the transports. I didn't notice that the beam had chewed the station down to a few percent and when it went up in a big explosion the tevs didn't seem to care about that. The transports continued their journey to a no longer existing station, which seems a quite ridiculous. I wonder if I could take down the Artreus in the same fashion :D

-I died a couple of times in the last mission. My curiosity got the better of me and I turned around where I shouldn't have.. Then I didn't find the node when fleeing from the Vishnans. When I restarted the mission I couldn't link with the shivan comm nodes to "get some answers" as I was supposed to. Didn't matter to me since I already knew them.


-The only real dislike for me: act 3 seems very short to me. 

I have waited 2 years for act 3. Now the waiting starts again for the next release... :(


 
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Spoiler:
-I hacked a mjolnir in the assassination mission and ordered it to attack Artemis station. Then I turned to take care of the transports. I didn't notice that the beam had chewed the station down to a few percent and when it went up in a big explosion the tevs didn't seem to care about that. The transports continued their journey to a no longer existing station, which seems a quite ridiculous. I wonder if I could take down the Artreus in the same fashion :D

I have waited 2 years for act 3. Now the waiting starts again for the next release... :(

Spoiler:
I'm happy that I'm not the only one whose done this. I'm gonna have to go get that screen shot or at least record a run where I blow the thing up after killing Svetlana.  I'll try for the Atreus next, see how much stuff I can fry with the thing. I think the next release, or a patched version, should include something when you do that

The idea of waiting that long for the other two is really scary, gonna be a real breath stealer checking back every few months.

 

Offline niffiwan

  • 211
  • Eluder Class
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Things would be easier for the advanced linux user with a link to the cvs or wherever the bp source is hosted. Precompiled binaries have the habit of not matching the library versions and files on your system.

Just on this point, there's a patch file here, and FreeSpaceFreak wrote a guide on building a BP binary from scratch somewhere in this thread but it's a bit hard to find (we should have asked the BP team to link to it to make it easier to find).  Short story is, checkout the antipodes branch from here, apply the patch, install dependencies then compile. 

Regardless, I'm glad you got it working on your Mac anyway.

And lastly, for my own curiosity's sake, which distro are you running?
Creating a fs2_open.log | Red Alert Bug = Hex Edit | MediaVPs 2014: Bigger HUD gauges | 32bit libs for 64bit Ubuntu
----
Debian Packages (testing/unstable): Freespace2 | wxLauncher
----
m|m: I think I'm suffering from Stockholm syndrome. Bmpman is starting to make sense and it's actually written reasonably well...

 

Offline cio

  • 23
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Thanks for your help. I'll try compiling once I get a decent graphics card. :D

I'm running arch linux, 64 bit version.
Had to downgrade openal and install a libjpeg version from aur, beside a few other things I don't remember right now.
And I created a symlink to my liblua version to match the filename the binary expects.
I could watch the intro mission, but the first dreamscape mission always crashed.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Holy ****, you guys who blew up Artemis are heroes. We should've given a special debrief for that.