Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Kie99 on August 11, 2004, 12:27:07 pm
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When I was playing Their Finest Hour I managed to use Delta wing to disable the Four BFRed turrets on the Sathanas (without cheating believe it or not) but the mission just carried on forever, I thought I deserved some sort of medal or at least permission to return to base after saving 30,000 lives!
By the way can anyone think of a good reason the Mission Designers destroyed the Colossus? I don't see the point of it.
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For the plot value, I would assume.
And you probably 'broke' the mission, btw. It wasn't designed to take a success like that fully into account, and thus couldn't handle it, IIRC.
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I know i "broke the mssion," but I still don't understand why the Colossus had to go, we already knew the power of the SJs because we'd seen the Phoenecia and Psamtik get FRIED, I just think they could have just put the Colossus somewhere else for the last couple of missions
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It was important from a stroy point that the Colossus fell. After the destruction of Sathanas #1, and the introduction of the Kayser, the Shivans began to look vulnerable.
The Colossus was the Alliance's greatest weapon, but we needed to see that it wasn't enough.
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The mission is just stupid. It is so strange that Command orders the colossus to engage subspace drive despite it was disable. Something whispers that mission wasn't tested more than twice.
Originally posted by Deathstorm V2
It was important from a stroy point...
I am glad to realize not I am the only one to mispell 'story' as 'stroy'.
Originally posted by Deathstorm V2
...The Colossus was the Alliance's greatest weapon, but we needed to see that it wasn't enough.
It needn't have been destroyed to show it was not enough. Did you think the Colossus is to win the war instead of Alpha 1? :drevil:
Originally posted by kietotheworld
I know i "broke the mssion," but I still don't understand why the Colossus had to go, we already knew the power of the SJs because we'd seen the Phoenecia and Psamtik get FRIED, I just think they could have just put the Colossus somewhere else for the last couple of missions
As far as I know, it has the guardian flag, which means its hull stops at 1%.
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Well if you FRED2 a mission a ship can depart even if it is disabled, but the Colossus never jumps out in the main campaign because its Centre of Gravity is in the wrong place and the first half of the ship just dissapears, then the rest of the Colossus jumps out.
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that's why it does the "baseball bat swing" too, it's off centre gravity...fecking ship designers got sloppy making the Colossus...I wonder what would happen if someone edited the Colossus to fix the little problems it has...wonder what would happen then...
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Originally posted by kietotheworld
Well if you FRED2 a mission a ship can depart even if it is disabled, but the Colossus never jumps out in the main campaign because its Centre of Gravity is in the wrong place and the first half of the ship just dissapears, then the rest of the Colossus jumps out.
It can jump out in the game, yes, but you know it would be unrealistic.
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The Collossus' death is symbolic.
It represents humanities (and by extension, the GTVA as awhole) attempts to reclaim the stars - the hopes and dreams of a generation which has lost its home.
When the Collosus is destroyed, it's not just the deaths of 30,000. It's the death of any hope that the Shivans can be defeated. It hammers it home - Capella is doomed.
If the Collosus had survived, what would it be? Nothing more than a failed weapon which could not hold back the Shivans. This way, it went out in a blaze of glory. Had it not been such a fugly ship, it'd have been pretty damn poignant.
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Well, even if the Collosus survived... Would it have been able to escape Capella?
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If a weapon cannot beat 80 Sathanases, is that a failure? :wtf:
Originally posted by LLivingLarge
Well, even if the Collosus survived... Would it have been able to escape Capella?
It would have been the only ship to guard the jump node out of Capella to Vega. Imagine that huge 6 kilometre behemoth guarding a jump node. That demands attention.
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Someone mentioned that if you disable all the turrets the mission wont work, thats not true at all, Ive done it a couple timesand it just tells you you did a good job and that you need to goto the next mission.
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Originally posted by kietotheworld
By the way can anyone think of a good reason the Mission Designers destroyed the Colossus? I don't see the point of it.
I'm given to understand that originally the Colossus was supposed to be the ship that destroyed the Capella-Epsilon Pegasi jump node.
Check "Clash of the Titans II" (which really should have had another Demon destroyer in there, just like the original) or Sandwich's ship list thingamabob.
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Originally posted by Night Hammer
Someone mentioned that if you disable all the turrets the mission wont work, thats not true at all, Ive done it a couple timesand it just tells you you did a good job and that you need to goto the next mission.
You are only allowed to warp out once the Colossus gets destroyed and there are only 2 debriefings, 1 says:
The Colossus has been destroyed. Over thirty thousand officers and crew, our colleagues, compatriots, and friends, perished in this battle. The most powerful Terran-Vasudan warship ever constructed, twenty years in the making, was vaporized in a matter of minutes.
Command acknowledges there was nothing you could have done to save the Colossus. Many of your squadmates were killed, and you are lucky to have survived the engagement. However, we have no time to mourn the dead. We have a job to do, and if we fail, millions more will suffer and die.
The 70th Blue Lions are being scrambled to assist the Bastion. Report to the ready room on the double.
and the other says you did not have authorization to return to base... blah-de-blah
So unless some fighters destroy the Colossus you can't warp out without getting a Rollicking off Petrach!
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I even managed to destroy that Sath once, without cheats. I even saved a pic of it.
(http://www3.sympatico.ca/daniel.topps/ColossusAvenged.jpg)
I didn't get the credit for the kill though.
Later!
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WELL I GOT THE KILL!
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FSO or FS2_retail?
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If you're talking to me I use retail, FSO always crashes,
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By the way did the Colossus survive?
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I always play FSO, and Trebs (which have the "bomber+" flag) no longer kill destroyers or anything larger. I have to use the bombers (that Command sends in if you lose too many fighters) to take her down. Its quite an involved process that I logged in a thread somewhere in this forum.
No, there wasn't time to disarm the Sath before it killed the big watergun... I mean, the Colossus. I was avenging the Colossus rather than saving it... hence the image filename.
Later!
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if you're all so dissatisfied with the fact you can't save the colossus in that mission no matter WHAT you do, why dont one of yas get the FRED out and make it possible to "legally" save the Colossus then? =D (and then ummm lets blow it up LATER! LOL...or maybe make it die in the last mission...damn thing's so slow...can't make it out of capella in time...BOOM)
BTW: Baseball bat swing: I dunno, I always thought that the Colossus's rotation near the back of it rather than the middle was an intentional feature. After all, if a ship is designed to turn on that center of rotation then the front of it, where in the colossus' case most main guns are, can be aimed so much quicker.
of course then theres the pilots who look at the colossus and go WTH at how fast its nose moves that way, but ah well... :)
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[Rephrase]The mission loses its legality as soon as somebody edits it.[/Rephrase]
By the way, I think [V] would have either added a 'You saved the Colossus' debriefing or remove the Trebuchets from the loadout to get rid of this bug.
Having a debriefing saying something did not happen in a mission is a bug in my book.
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what would happen if someone actually fixed the Centre of Gravity issue with the colossus anyway? Would it unbalance the missions?
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doubt it... I never really see it move at all... other then in the one where it kills the sath, but its far enough away i'm not paying attention... though it usually gets rammed by debris :p
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Disabled capital ships cannot even steer. It is no wonder you still haven't seen it moving.
Changing the center of the gravity would only affect the Faint! Perry! Riposte! and the High Noon mission.
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Had it not been such a fugly ship, it'd have been pretty damn poignant.
I thought the hull design of the Collossus was also very ugly. It must have been a terran design. :)
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The Colossus looks just fine.
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As they say, terran = Block not cock
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I always make the Phoenecia invincible because I hate to see that nice destroyer get raped by the Sathanas.
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You know, that mission is loaded with oddities. The Colossus' beams are never used against the Sath. In addition to that, the "fleet" that Command sends in to blockade the node only makes use of flak turrets and AAA beams, but never the anti-capship beams. It's such a damn annoyance, and I can never find the sexp that causes it.
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Once, a while back, I was having considerable difficulty with FSO and it took me several attempts to pass this mission. One of the times I attempted it, I was surprised to see friendly cap-ships firing their beams. I've never had it happen since, and I have no idea what caused it, but it was a welcome surprise when it happened. I didn't get far enough into the mission to see if the Colossus fires at the Sath unfortunately.
Later!
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I haven't played the campaign throught yet (I've got into the 4rd fleet HQ evacuation mission), but I think the Santhanas is not really nearly as formirable as it is made out to be. (Of course, if there are dozens of them flying around, that *is* a problem.) It relies far too much on it's main beam cannons, which a single bomber can easily disable in about 2 minutes, provided some escort to keep enemy fighters off it's back. (AI bombers seem to be completely incabable of damaging those beam cannons, though. They probably don't move close enought for their bombs to get throught the flak.)
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I basically drop the possibility of playing the official campaign with FSO.
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Originally posted by TopAce
If a weapon cannot beat 80 Sathanases, is that a failure? :wtf:
It would have been the only ship to guard the jump node out of Capella to Vega. Imagine that huge 6 kilometre behemoth guarding a jump node. That demands attention.
So....stick a 6 kilometer long, quite probably disabled warship in an area which not only is a major escape route for (in realistic terms) thousands of transports? Not only are you inviting a Shivan attack (and in somewhere that crowded - carnage), you're also placing a gigantic block in front of the only hope for escape.
And, of course, the presence of incoming transports would cause hell in trying to avoid freindly fire incidents.... unless you move it to a distance sufficient to let ships through safely, which creates a window of opportunity.
Oh, and if you run away from a fight, and let people die as a result - it's a failure. The Collosus was designed to fight and kill Shivans. It failed. It's role after that, was to protect the civvies as they escaped. It sacrificed itself to do so.
Were it not such a god-awful ****ing ugly ship, it'd be quite poignant. Alas, the sight of a 6km long super-soaker going up isn't that stunning.
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You cannot expect any type of warships to attack and destroy 80 Sathanases anyway. Not the Colossus was a failure, the Shivans were successful.
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By the way, I do not know where you collected the idea of the Colossus blocking everything. It is quite obvious the GTVA will not place her right in the middle of the node.
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Originally posted by TopAce
By the way, I do not know where you collected the idea of the Colossus blocking everything. It is quite obvious the GTVA will not place her right in the middle of the node.
:sigh:
You just proved my point, if that's your recommended placement. The colossus blocks all ships from the left (its right) side -blocking refugees.
It encroaches partly across the direct (frontal) route to the node - blocking refugees.
It is open to attacks from above, below, and the front. It's placement means that these also happen to be the best places for refugees to come from - and hence Shivans in persuit.
That's assuming it is easy and quick for the transports to turn into position for jumping from above / below.
So the only effective defensive point for the colossus is to its direct left and right (where the guns are). the most likely source of attack, is going to be from its left. why? Because that is the only point of sensible entry now left to transports - and if the Colossus fires then, it risks massive collateral damage.
If it wants to escape via the node, it also have to engage in a lengthy turning process, not only blocking the node but also leaving its vulnerable rear open to attack in the process. And if the rear is hit too badly in this process, the Shivans have just created a massive 'plug' for the jumpnode to prevent escaping vessels, thanks to either copious amounts of debris, or a disabled juggernaught.
Basically, it'd be inviting a massacre. At best, it prevents refugees escaping. At worst, it traps them with the colossus on one side and the Shivans in the other.
In short, you've just built a killing field.
Well done.
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You ignore the Y axis. The Colossus blocks nothing.
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No, I don't. The y-axis is the problem - the colossus is incredibly vulnerable from above and below.
Even if the colossus was below the level of the node, then it'd have changed from a block, to being useless - if the Shivans are attacking, they're hardly likely to lower themselves down to the level of the Colossuses most powerful beams on the side, are they?
They'd just steamroller over the top - i.e. if the colossus is above or below the node, it is presenting its largest weakpoint to the Shivans.
It's simple. A node is a chokepoint. A colossus would choke it - for the escaping civvies.
Not only that, it's pretty damn obvious that if you want to blockade from attack, you do it where the enemy is least able to escape - i.e. that would be the exit. If you want to protect an entrance, and allow others to use it, you move outwards in diversionary attacks or to set up a perimeter.
what you do not do in this situation, is to place a gigantic target that has to block the only escape route for civlillians in order to function effectively.
And this is even assuming the Colossus is not badly damaged and has all turrets operational.
And not to mention that placing the near-crippled colossus on a jumpnode is effectively painting a giant bullseye for the Shivans.
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The Colossus can reach everything with her beams. It assumes that the Colossus has all its turrets operational, yes. It also had its turrets operational in Clash of the Titans II. This is merely an assumption since we know what has become of the Colossus in the early mission.
And what we both now even better: We know this discussion will never end unless the thread is closed. We cannot see how this would work in a real mission, and even if any of us(mostly you since I do not FRED assumptions) decide to make a mission similiar to this situation, there are still so many directions where transports and Shivans can come from. There are simply too many possibilities.
We make this thread a site of wrangle, if you stick to. Threads in General FreeSpace or FreeSpace modding are rarely checked by admins anyway, so we can continue this debate until we get bored modding FreeSpace and visiting HLP.
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The colossus wasn't in Clash of the Titans II... The bastion was though, but the Colossus had been destroyed in the previous mission...
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OH! The mission we are talking about is the Their Finest Hour! I am getting tired. :)
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Originally posted by TopAce
The Colossus can reach everything with her beams. It assumes that the Colossus has all its turrets operational, yes. It also had its turrets operational in Clash of the Titans II. This is merely an assumption since we know what has become of the Colossus in the early mission.
And what we both now even better: We know this discussion will never end unless the thread is closed. We cannot see how this would work in a real mission, and even if any of us(mostly you since I do not FRED assumptions) decide to make a mission similiar to this situation, there are still so many directions where transports and Shivans can come from. There are simply too many possibilities.
We make this thread a site of wrangle, if you stick to. Threads in General FreeSpace or FreeSpace modding are rarely checked by admins anyway, so we can continue this debate until we get bored modding FreeSpace and visiting HLP.
Beam FOV
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Eh?
When something enters the node, it immediatly gets fired upon by the Colossus.
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Originally posted by TopAce
Eh?
When something enters the node, it immediatly gets fired upon by the Colossus.
What about the refugee ships?
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the colossus had at least that much common sence... granted, it was less smarter then a support ship, but... meh...
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Originally posted by Hippo
the colossus had at least that much common sence... granted, it was less smarter then a support ship, but... meh...
No.... I mean, what about crossfire? Flak isn't exactly a precision weapon, not to mention that a large destroyers' explosion would probably cause considerable damage to those in the blast radius. And that the Shivans could effectively 'hide' behind refugee transports, forcing the Colossus to either hold fire or risk hitting its own kind.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
What about the refugee ships?
The Colossus will not fire upon them obviously and the GTVA will not be stupid to send in civilian transports to co-ordinates where they have to evade the Colossus. The flight path can be properly calculated.
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Originally posted by TopAce
The Colossus will not fire upon them obviously and the GTVA will not be stupid to send in civilian transports to co-ordinates where they have to evade the Colossus. The flight path can be properly calculated.
And you think the Shivans will just go 'fair play chaps, we'll let you go past'? If the Shivans wanted to, all they'd have to do is arrange to arrive right in the middle of the transport group. Not to mention any incoming transports which were already under attack.
The Shivans have forgotten more about subspace then the GTVA has ever learned.... it's more than within their grasp to track a vessel through subspace and arrive in-position.
Not only that, the sun is about to be nova-ed by 80 Sathani. There is a full scale war going on - still - and thousands of refugee transports. Do you really think command could synchronize the arrivals of that many ships, that precisely, and somehow manage to second guess the position of every Shivan ship?
Or are you suggesting Command would send in transports to a position out of the Colossuses firing range - where they'd be Shivan cannon fodder?
These are the things you need to consider - what will the enemy do? Can they take advantage of this? In this case, they can - in fact, it's a perfect situation for them to take out both the Colossus and civvie traffic.
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wasn't that faint directed at the Gamma Draconis Node, a system with little GTVA civi presence (ie no fleeing transports) ?
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Come to think of supercaps blocking nodes, why didn't the shivans sacrifice 1 Juggernaut and put it near the Vega Node, to stop all the refugees escaping?
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Originally posted by kietotheworld
Come to think of supercaps blocking nodes, why didn't the shivans sacrifice 1 Juggernaut and put it near the Vega Node, to stop all the refugees escaping?
Most likely they just didn't give a ****.
The Shivans were in Capella for some greater purpose than simply wiping out the GTVA.... if you think of the forces they could have used (80 Sathani) versus what the player did encounter, the Shivans obviously weren't giving the conflict with the GTVA anything more than the bare minimum of effort.
If you think of it, a force of 80 Sathani is probably enough to destroy every planet in the alliance.
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if you consider that the lucifer fleet destroyed a planet in 13 hours, then 80 ships each about as powerful as the lucy fleet could do it in 10 minutes. and keep in mind, petrarch said that there were over 80.
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What happened to your custom avatar, Carl? Are you no longer an Admin?
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Originally posted by aldo_14
And you think the Shivans will just go 'fair play chaps, we'll let you go past'? If the Shivans wanted to, all they'd have to do is arrange to arrive right in the middle of the transport group. Not to mention any incoming transports which were already under attack.
The Shivans have forgotten more about subspace then the GTVA has ever learned.... it's more than within their grasp to track a vessel through subspace and arrive in-position.
Not only that, the sun is about to be nova-ed by 80 Sathani. There is a full scale war going on - still - and thousands of refugee transports. Do you really think command could synchronize the arrivals of that many ships, that precisely, and somehow manage to second guess the position of every Shivan ship?
Or are you suggesting Command would send in transports to a position out of the Colossuses firing range - where they'd be Shivan cannon fodder?
These are the things you need to consider - what will the enemy do? Can they take advantage of this? In this case, they can - in fact, it's a perfect situation for them to take out both the Colossus and civvie traffic.
You have just listed 5 possibilities out of 63683.
Let sleeping dogs lie. This will only get worse.
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Originally posted by TopAce
You have just listed 5 possibilities out of 63683.
Let sleeping dogs lie. This will only get worse.
I just listed tactics that would destroy the blockade into a massacre. It's not a possibility, it's a tactic. If you want a realistic mission, you need to consider and handle the enemys' tactical response - otherwise people will play it, spot the obvious gaps, and as a result have their belief destroyed.
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FS2 is not about realism. It is about playability. If FS2 were realistic, the Shivans would have sent in ONE juggernaut to blockade the node to Vega. Not the firepower of that ONE would have made the Shivans unable to destroy Capella.
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Originally posted by TopAce
FS2 is not about realism. It is about playability. If FS2 were realistic, the Shivans would have sent in ONE juggernaut to blockade the node to Vega. Not the firepower of that ONE would have made the Shivans unable to destroy Capella.
Shivans Didn't care about GTVA in Capella there was bigger things going on...
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actually, i belive that parking a large solid object on a jump node could have ill effects... considering that a subspace hole is a warphole or other space distortion, whatever part of the interior of the ship would possibly be vaporized... granted, whatever ship arrived would be smashed flat, but it could cause considerable damage to the large object (sathanas for instance)... and because ships can arrive anywhere within the nodes, it could possible hit something vital (if shivans have them) such as reactors (as seen on the rakshasha)... The shivans would probably make such a sacrifice, but something th size of an orion's warphole could come close to severing the ship in two, costing only an orion...
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Originally posted by TopAce
FS2 is not about realism. It is about playability. If FS2 were realistic, the Shivans would have sent in ONE juggernaut to blockade the node to Vega. Not the firepower of that ONE would have made the Shivans unable to destroy Capella.
FS2 well establishes that the Shivans have no interest in Vega.
Realism is an essential part of believability & immersion, which are in turn essential for playability.
If you leave obvious holes or errors, it helps to destroy the players ability to feel involved.... it makes it obvious the setup has been designed with them in mind, rather than even a pseudo-realistic portrayal of what would happen. People play through, for example, a campaign and say 'why didn;t they do that?', rather than focus on what they did do.
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Also why does the Colossus have waypoints when its disabled???
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Originally posted by kietotheworld
Also why does the Colossus have waypoints when its disabled???
Maybe to force it to face a certain way? Is it initially disabled?
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Maybe [V] decided to have it disabled after they added the waypoint. The FREDer was simply lazy to remove it, or he did not find removing it important.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Maybe to force it to face a certain way? Is it initially disabled?
You can just make it point a certain way in FRED and yes it is initially disabled
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Originally posted by kietotheworld
You can just make it point a certain way in FRED and yes it is initially disabled
Hmm. I'm just wondering whether there was some AI bug which made it move oddly.
Maybe they intended it to kamikaze the Sathanas? That'd be...dramatic.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Maybe they intended it to kamikaze the Sathanas? That'd be...dramatic.
Hey great idea!
[RANT]
At least that'd make more sense than sitting there waiting to be fried instead of warping out and surviving, after all it only held up the Sath for about a minute, which gave no advantage whatsoever to any terran ship!
[Rant Over]
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Great. The largest amd most powerful warship is used as a kamikaze ship.
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better then a baseball bat...
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Originally posted by TopAce
Great. The largest amd most powerful warship is used as a kamikaze ship.
Well, at least you've got a big bang there. Colossus kamikaze would probably be able to take out a Sathanas.... albiet the Sath could probably destroy the Colossus if it came head on.
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Yeah, big bang. FreeSpace is good at Big Bangs.
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I tried repairing the Colossus's engines in that mission, and it just moves toward the node, attacking all the cruisers that jump in. Thus it's way out of position for when the Ravana and Sathanas arrive.
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thats probably why thy decided to disable it, to make it easier to script its destruction...
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Damn I like with the Kamakaze idea. That would be much more dramatic (and satisfying) then letting that Sathanas just rip it to shreds.
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Originally posted by Cabbie
Damn I like with the Kamakaze idea. That would be much more dramatic (and satisfying) then letting that Sathanas just rip it to shreds.
I think the problem is that if the Colossus was badly damaged enough to make it resort to a kamikaze, then the Sath would destroy it with its front beams before it could impact anyways.
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The most unbelievable bit about the entire thing is that the Colossus couldn't just lock onto the Sathanas's four main beam cannon spike tips and selectively blow the cannons away before they could fire. Then again, BGreens aren't all that good at aiming...but still...in a situation like that, the very commander of the Colossus himself would probably aim the guns manually... I wouldn't trust a lieutenant gunner with aiming those BGreens, I'd have four joysticks on my Command Chair specifically for each of them. =D
Off topic stuff aside, and trying not to overfuel this thread's fires, it would have been interesting if the kamikaze were done by an overload (or uncalculated engagement) of the Colossus's jump drive, causing it to jump out INTO the Sathanas, exploding inside and outside the Sathanas simultaneously, causing an apocalyptic explosion that blows both up to smithereens.
Also, who says the Shivans are accurate with their jumping? Here's a way to finish that mission REAL quick: Sathanas jumps in and hits the Colossus in the process...both go boom or sathanas survives with 5% hull at which point some little measly group of Deimoses fleeing the system show up and have the satisfaction of blowing it to hell
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Originally posted by Gregster2k
The most unbelievable bit about the entire thing is that the Colossus couldn't just lock onto the Sathanas's four main beam cannon spike tips and selectively blow the cannons away before they could fire. Then again, BGreens aren't all that good at aiming...but still...in a situation like that, the very commander of the Colossus himself would probably aim the guns manually... I wouldn't trust a lieutenant gunner with aiming those BGreens, I'd have four joysticks on my Command Chair specifically for each of them. =D
Off topic stuff aside, and trying not to overfuel this thread's fires, it would have been interesting if the kamikaze were done by an overload (or uncalculated engagement) of the Colossus's jump drive, causing it to jump out INTO the Sathanas, exploding inside and outside the Sathanas simultaneously, causing an apocalyptic explosion that blows both up to smithereens.
Also, who says the Shivans are accurate with their jumping? Here's a way to finish that mission REAL quick: Sathanas jumps in and hits the Colossus in the process...both go boom or sathanas survives with 5% hull at which point some little measly group of Deimoses fleeing the system show up and have the satisfaction of blowing it to hell
I like!
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But it is canon that Shivans have extremely accurate subspace drives... Ours would be accurate enough to get us where we want to be, but the shivans were 'birthed in subspace'... If they told subspace to put on a dress and dance, they probably could...
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Birthed?
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Does anyone know why the beam cannons on the GTVA vessels in "Their Finest Hour" do not function? The FRED2 file has a beamfreeall command in it. Is there some kind of other bug?
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Sounds like a bug. Unless there is nothing for them to actually shoot at/nothing in the firing arcs of the cannons.
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Or something hardcoded in AI for some reason... 'High Noon' had that, didn't it?
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They simply have no orders to attack.
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A ship with no attack orders will still fire its turrets on a hostile vessel. Other factors that could affect this include: 1), the "no dynamic gloals" flag activated, but that would prevent them from firing at all and they fire on the transports, just not beams, 2), hostile Shivan vessels other than the Ravana & Sath, being beam-protected.
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do they even have beams?
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He's talking about the one where the collossus goes down...
Yeah, they are ordered to attack, just they forgot to unlock there beams...
Of course this is not true for the collossus and it's combatants