Author Topic: GTD Raynor superdestroyer?  (Read 17403 times)

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Offline Dilmah G

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Re: GTD Raynor superdestroyer?
Well "Do more with less" has a place here. As long as you play the hand 'creatively', you don't have to beg for more cards.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: GTD Raynor superdestroyer?
Well "Do more with less" has a place here. As long as you play the hand 'creatively', you don't have to beg for more cards.

The GTVA is operating from a natural posistion of strength. They have a superior weapons system, beam-armed capital craft, and if you put a bunch of them together, the UEF doesn't really have something that's up to stopping it. This is basically the same thing that happened with Japan in WW2 with Kido Butai.

As such, dispersal does not pay. It's classic Sun-Tzu. Instead of attempting "subspace speed chess", which is basically the "divinely mysterious" clause, read down a few more to the part about division and concentration. If your enemy divides and you concentrate, you can bring your strength to bear on them better. Even bringing subspace into the equation, the GTVA's best option is still to throw a multidestroyer assault at whatever target's deemed worth being attacked. It's the best way to keep their edge. Dividing up runs the basic risks of division; defeat in detail. Coral Sea to bring the balance to normal, and Midway to lose the node and the campaign.

(If this turns out to be exactly how the campaign works I'm going to be annoyed.)
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Offline Dilmah G

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Re: GTD Raynor superdestroyer?
Hey, I'm not saying we shouldn't do that, but the way in which we do it, is what I referred to mainly when I said there were a million ways to play a hand.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: GTD Raynor superdestroyer?
Well "Do more with less" has a place here. As long as you play the hand 'creatively', you don't have to beg for more cards.

The GTVA is operating from a natural posistion of strength. They have a superior weapons system, beam-armed capital craft, and if you put a bunch of them together, the UEF doesn't really have something that's up to stopping it. This is basically the same thing that happened with Japan in WW2 with Kido Butai.

As such, dispersal does not pay. It's classic Sun-Tzu. Instead of attempting "subspace speed chess", which is basically the "divinely mysterious" clause, read down a few more to the part about division and concentration. If your enemy divides and you concentrate, you can bring your strength to bear on them better. Even bringing subspace into the equation, the GTVA's best option is still to throw a multidestroyer assault at whatever target's deemed worth being attacked. It's the best way to keep their edge. Dividing up runs the basic risks of division; defeat in detail. Coral Sea to bring the balance to normal, and Midway to lose the node and the campaign.

(If this turns out to be exactly how the campaign works I'm going to be annoyed.)

Would be correct except for a faulty assumption, namely that the UEF doesn't have something that's up to stopping a concentrated destroyer assault.

Putting multiple destroyers in the same place would get them all killed by UEF bombers and artillery. Meanwhile the vital positions that said destroyers should have been covering would be lost too, probably including the all-important node.

Dividing up allows them to avoid that kind of nightmare scenario. If they hold ships back then the UEF can't just throw all its forces into one be-all-end-all battle. Nor can the UEF make an end-run for a war-winning blow.

When you have such a major tactical advantage but an overall logistical disadvantage (due to the node bottleneck) you have no reason to gamble on high-risk-high-reward deployments. Nor any reason to put your destroyers in harm's way at all when corvettes can get the job done.

Oh and this:

Quote
If your enemy divides and you concentrate, you can bring your strength to bear on them better.

Kind of surprises me because it contradicts stuff we've both talked about in the past. If the enemy divides and you concentrate, you might achieve great success at a single objective but lose multiple other targets that the enemy was able to hit.

Thus, subspace speed chess in the early portions of the war. The GTVA has only three destroyer groups in Sol and so is badly outnumbered, but the UEF has far more targets to cover and is badly offensively hobbled. So you get a string of deployments and counter-deployments and retreats on both sides. In the long run the GTVA manages to gradually degrade its objectives as the UEF sensor net breaks down (think a subspace version of SOSUS).

In biology we analyze predator behavior with a set of mathematical tools, and a predator with a strong position will never take extreme risks. Putting more than one destroyer into a fight - or heck, any destroyer at all - is a big gamble.

« Last Edit: March 20, 2010, 09:45:26 am by General Battuta »

 

Offline Dilmah G

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Re: GTD Raynor superdestroyer?
Exactly.

And using your two most powerful weapons on each target is bloody inefficient, I must say. And man, I really do hate inefficiency in an organisation (which is why I hate bureaucracies with a large passion.)

And if you can do more with less, then why the hell not? If it isn't glaringly clear already, I'm quite a fan of sitting in the ops room with the Officers on-ship coming up with new strategies in which to do so.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: GTD Raynor superdestroyer?
Would be correct except for a faulty assumption, namely that the UEF doesn't have something that's up to stopping a concentrated destroyer assault.

Putting multiple destroyers in the same place would get them all killed by UEF bombers and artillery. Meanwhile the vital positions that said destroyers should have been covering would be lost too, probably including the all-important node.

Perhaps. On the other hand, as I will demonstrate below, they are at that risk all the time; in an offensive situation it can best be minimized.

Dividing up allows them to avoid that kind of nightmare scenario. If they hold ships back then the UEF can't just throw all its forces into one be-all-end-all battle. Nor can the UEF make an end-run for a war-winning blow.

On the contrary; holding them back exposes them to greater risk because some number of their subordinate ships and hence some amount of their support has been removed from them. Subspace transit allows a level of uncertainity, no matter how brief, about the destroyer's location. Commiting it offensively and winning protects it better because then, there being nothing left to defend, the natural thing will be to concede the field.

The end-run point is valid, but irrevelant; under no circumstances would I suggest underdefending the node anyways.

Though I would also note that the node allows instant reinforcement of itself. Short-term deployment into Sol by major GTVA forces for at least a few weeks at a time is entirely possible, something you seem to be dismissing out of hand.

When you have such a major tactical advantage but an overall logistical disadvantage (due to the node bottleneck) you have no reason to gamble on high-risk-high-reward deployments. Nor any reason to put your destroyers in harm's way at all when corvettes can get the job done.

But what you're posisting as a tactical disadvantage is, well, not. The Shivans have set about proving this numerous times in both games.

Kind of surprises me because it contradicts stuff we've both talked about in the past. If the enemy divides and you concentrate, you might achieve great success at a single objective but lose multiple other targets that the enemy was able to hit.

But there is a faulty logic at work here.

The GTVA has only one target worth defending in Sol, the Way Out. As noted above, defense of this can be handled by short-term deployments from Delta Serpentis. They have minimal defensive requirements allowing them to adopt a nearly-Shivan all-offense way of fighting.

Thus, subspace speed chess in the early portions of the war. The GTVA has only three destroyer groups in Sol and so is badly outnumbered, but the UEF has far more targets to cover and is badly offensively hobbled. So you get a string of deployments and counter-deployments and retreats on both sides. In the long run the GTVA manages to gradually degrade its objectives as the UEF sensor net breaks down (think a subspace version of SOSUS).

But this just reinforces the need for tactical concentration. In addition to offering better protection for your assets by allowing mutual support, it also offers two other classic advantages.

The use of minimal force will cause disproportionate casualities. Using overwhelming force will minimize your casualities. This ties directly into the second reason, time.

Casualities are a direct function of exposure time. By applying massive force to an operation you can complete it quickly and move on, resulting in minimal exposure of your force to danger. From this one can expand to a true manuver warfare concept or simply withdraw again. This course further recommends itself because it exaggerates the GTVA's advantages using beam-armed warships, which are better suited to rapid engagement conclusion.

The GTVA has been given a unique chance to adopt the Shivan way of war, to take a true manuver warfare stance that still forces the enemy to defend everything, but also that will all but insure superiority at the point of contact wherever they go.

In biology we analyze predator behavior with a set of mathematical tools, and a predator with a strong position will never take extreme risks. Putting more than one destroyer into a fight - or heck, any destroyer at all - is a big gamble.

Conversely, in a major offensive operation, leaving the destroyer behind is a greater gamble. The simple reason for this is blindingly obvious: if you do that you've given the enemy a tailor-made opportunity to force you to break off and defend the destroyer. (I would direct you to a mission I've tested for proof of concept of this very fact.) By commiting it to offensive action, you not only preserve the integrity of your offensive, you make it easier to safeguard the destroyer because your other ships can support it directly and it can in turn support them.

The other reason is fairly simple. The UEF do not force the GTVA to admit the more cautious route because they're not the Shivans. The greatest handicap of fighting the Shivans (which was brutally demonstrated in FS2) is that the most basic intelligence on them, their order of battle, is completely unobtainable. Without that, no capablities. Without capablities, one is reduced to guessing about intentions, which is no way to fight a war. But the GTVA should be able to easily assemble this kind of knowledge on the UEF. This certainity would in and of itself utterly transform the tactics of the war.
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Offline Dilmah G

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Re: GTD Raynor superdestroyer?
Well something neither of you have mentioned is that maybe the Terrans don't want to completely obliterate Sol. After all, it'll cost an arm and a leg to rebuild those mother****ers after the war. There are different ways of winning the war than overwhelming force, especially when these people are defending their homes.

You'd be surprised how deeply it affects serving men and women when their comrades are dying next to them. You can only see so many of your mates die before it really starts getting to you. The GTVA can send UEF cruisers and frigates home without destroying them, but by a few slash beams gutting compartments and tearing people in half, you demoralize them, and destroy their will to fight. At the end of the day, you'd have to ask yourself when you're the only original pilot of your squadron, whether it's all worth it.

It's within the GTVA's best interests to keep most of the Federation infrastructure intact, and force the Federation into a diplomatic solution. You *can* do that by obliterating anything that looks at you the wrong way, but that'd work against the Alliance in the long run. Sending thousands of Officers and Crew home  wounded and broken by PTSD will have a far greater effect on a society such as Earth's which is fairly centred around the spiritual and mental side of things. 

And the GTVA can do all that with minimum concentration of force and using their head when selecting targets. Crack open a few convoys, bomb a few planets, tear a few frigates open, and send a few more home with devastating combat damage.

 

Offline -Norbert-

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Re: GTD Raynor superdestroyer?
Quote
The GTVA can send UEF cruisers and frigates home without destroying them, but by a few slash beams gutting compartments and tearing people in half, you demoralize them, and destroy their will to fight.
That is one of two possible outcomes.
The other is that you make the enemy fight harder. The more and more comrades the UEF soldiers lose, the more they will hate the GTVA, slowly overcoming their pacifistic natures and turning them more and more into fanatics. And I'd rather fight a pacifist who has no other choice but to fight, than a fanatic. A fanatic will not surrender and certainly will not let you surrender or retreat.
Which one's the case we'll have to wait and see.

And NGTM-1R you forgot one fact in your analysis - jumpdrive recharge time. A ship not comitted is a ship that can jump on a moment notice, a ship comitted is a ship that needs to recharge it's jumpdrive. Both sitting back and going on the offensive can lead you in a situation you want to retreat from, but the ship with the charged up jumpdrive has the better chance to actually make it out.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: GTD Raynor superdestroyer?
Well something neither of you have mentioned is that maybe the Terrans don't want to completely obliterate Sol. After all, it'll cost an arm and a leg to rebuild those mother****ers after the war. There are different ways of winning the war than overwhelming force, especially when these people are defending their homes.

The quickest way to win a war is to destroy your opponent's ability to fight. It always has been, and always will be. The GTVA must discredit Ubuntu as a political philosophy in addition to defeating it on the field of battle, and the most effective way to do this is to have a rapid victory. Rebuilding costs are acceptable when the alternative is that the original war aims may fail regardless of a battlefield victory.

Further in the long run triggering a quick UEF collapse will ultimately do more to save their infrastructure and reduce their casualities then a long war selectively targeted will.

You'd be surprised how deeply it affects serving men and women when their comrades are dying next to them. You can only see so many of your mates die before it really starts getting to you. The GTVA can send UEF cruisers and frigates home without destroying them, but by a few slash beams gutting compartments and tearing people in half, you demoralize them, and destroy their will to fight. At the end of the day, you'd have to ask yourself when you're the only original pilot of your squadron, whether it's all worth it.

This is a popular argument in this day and age, after things like Vietnam, Beirut, and Mogadishu. But it's not a valid one because drawing those comparisons is faulty. They were all, for want of a better word, optional. None of them had the slightest impact on the standing of the loser in the world.

The simple truth is that for the UEF, this war is not optional. Indeed, it goes beyond merely "not optional" in that losing will alter their place in the grand scheme of things. This is about not only political survival but the existence of their way of life. And this isn't even pointing out the Renjian. The UEF had their Pearl Harbor, but they also had their Coral Sea in the mission you yourself built for the combat demo. They know that not only must they resist, but that successful resistance is possible.

Attacking their will to fight is an inherently poor strategy. History has shown this time and time again. No one has ever successfully staged such a battle. Even the victories of it I've already pointed to were never intentional successes. In this situation, where the GTVA has gone out of its way to antagonize the UEF and has had intial failures in its war on the battlefield, it is outright madness to suggest it.

If you win on the battlefield, you can break their will to fight anyways. If you lose on the battlefield, you cannot. In the end, it comes down to the most effective means of winning on the field. And that, in turn, means the Shivan-esque strategy of massive force.

It's within the GTVA's best interests to keep most of the Federation infrastructure intact, and force the Federation into a diplomatic solution. You *can* do that by obliterating anything that looks at you the wrong way, but that'd work against the Alliance in the long run. Sending thousands of Officers and Crew home  wounded and broken by PTSD will have a far greater effect on a society such as Earth's which is fairly centred around the spiritual and mental side of things.

Which crushing the enemy wherever you go will also force them into, as you admit. It will serve the Alliance well in the long run; they win. They discredit Ubuntu as a political philosophy. They prove that their early-war blunders were an aberration. They demonstrate that not only is the military a strong, viable force to put one's faith in for the next Shivan attack, but that it can learn Shivan behaviors and adapt them.

And the strategy you propose will build a legacy of hatred and mistrust between Sol and the rest of the GTVA that will take decades or centuries to eradicate. A quick resolution sought only on the field of battle will make the pain of reintegration shorter and it will make reintegration more possible; a fair victory fairly won, not an internal collapse that can be blamed on a backstab by the politicians or others, or a lingering resentment with the many physical objects you describe as a rallying point for it.

And the GTVA can do all that with minimum concentration of force and using their head when selecting targets. Crack open a few convoys, bomb a few planets, tear a few frigates open, and send a few more home with devastating combat damage.

See above. All of it.

And NGTM-1R you forgot one fact in your analysis - jumpdrive recharge time. A ship not comitted is a ship that can jump on a moment notice, a ship comitted is a ship that needs to recharge it's jumpdrive. Both sitting back and going on the offensive can lead you in a situation you want to retreat from, but the ship with the charged up jumpdrive has the better chance to actually make it out.

This was considered. It was also rejected. Either the option is removed from your enemy as well in his response, or he does not turn up. Remember as well that subspace tracking exists; any jump to an area without existing support is trapping yourself in what may become your own tomb. If you are already with your support then you have a much better chance to make a successful escape if trapped.

If he choses to attack your rear areas, you already have sufficent defense in place to stall him long enough for your return, and then it is he who is trapped.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: GTD Raynor superdestroyer?
This debate has devolved into armchair-general theorycrafting rather than anything useful, and I'm on vacation, so I'm just gonna let it sputter out.

 

Offline Dilmah G

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Re: GTD Raynor superdestroyer?
Argh, just when I was waiting for you to take the lead, I'm too tired to reply. :P

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: GTD Raynor superdestroyer?
Right, fine. I'll QED this thing fast.

C/B analysis, deploying more than 1 (2, 3, or later in the war 4 or 5) destroyers to a single engagement:

BENEFIT:

Using the extra destroyer(s) and their escorts you can destroy your target twice, three times, four times, or five times as fast.

COST:

The GTVA has multiple vital rear-area targets in Sol that must be defended, including but not limited to the node. Those become open to attack. You could counter this by 'strategic sprinting', which is not something we dismissed offhand but something we think about. Unfortunately said sprints tend to turn into cluster****s.

You lose access to those destroyer's fighter complements in other areas since they can't be launched rapidly under combat maneuvers.

You let the enemy know exactly where the destroyer is. When in a secure rear area, where the UEF sensor net has been taken down, the destroyers can move about untracked and even use subspace gates. They can't be easily located.

As a consequence of the above point, with each destroyer you deploy, you free up a vast number of enemy assets once charged with countering its potential deployment. Worse yet, you let the UEF know exactly where to deploy its artillery and horrifying uberbomber squadrons.

You do not reduce your casualty rate since casualty rate is a function of enemy assets committed as well as exposure time and you'll be allowing that to increase uncontrollably (or even to maximum.)

You gain little, you risk much. Behavior does not increase strategic fitness.

With only 3-5 destroyers in Sol, there is good reason the GTVA elects to rarely deploy more than one at a time.

As for the 'will to fight' vs. 'military victory' war, the GTVA cannot win the battle on the field. It must force a diplomatic solution. It does not have the manpower or ability to occupy the UEF's planets and a military victory risks destruction of the all-important infrastructure. What it can do is threaten massive destruction and force concessions.

And that's that.


 

Offline Dilmah G

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Re: GTD Raynor superdestroyer?
*Salutes Battuta*

And yeah, diplomacy is the only real way to go in Sol, in the end. Else, you deal with a public so damn bitter from your presence, they'll stab you in the back when you're not looking.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2010, 09:16:48 am by Dilmah G »

 

Offline -Norbert-

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Re: GTD Raynor superdestroyer?
Quote
[...] and even use subspace gates.
Care to elaborate on those a bit?

 

Offline The E

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Re: GTD Raynor superdestroyer?
Right. Time to explain those.

Subspace gates are a neat bit of tech the UEF has cooked up during their isolation period. Basically, they built installations that can open intrasystem jumppoints, so that they could build freighters without intrasystem drives, and which would allow ships with drives to jump without actually using their jump drives (thereby eliminating the drive recharge time period).
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Offline -Norbert-

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Re: GTD Raynor superdestroyer?
And according to Battutas earlier comment I'd guess they are big enough to fit a destroyer through.

Are they point to point or can you choose which gate you'll come out of?

 

Offline The E

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Re: GTD Raynor superdestroyer?
Point-to-point. That is, you can only get from one gate to another. Also, gates are range limited, you can't get from Mercury to the Kuiper belt in one jump for example (which intrasystem drives can theoretically do).

As a result, there's a gate network with fixed "roads" you need to travel. While some forking is possible (It doesn't make much of a difference whether you're going from Mars to Earth orbit or Luna orbit, the departure gate will be the same. The Arrival gate, however, will vary).
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Offline headdie

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Re: GTD Raynor superdestroyer?
Point-to-point. That is, you can only get from one gate to another. Also, gates are range limited, you can't get from Mercury to the Kuiper belt in one jump for example (which intrasystem drives can theoretically do).

As a result, there's a gate network with fixed "roads" you need to travel. While some forking is possible (It doesn't make much of a difference whether you're going from Mars to Earth orbit or Luna orbit, the departure gate will be the same. The Arrival gate, however, will vary).

a concept used quite nicely in freelancer  :wtf:
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Offline The E

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Re: GTD Raynor superdestroyer?
...And?
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
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Offline -Norbert-

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Re: GTD Raynor superdestroyer?
a concept used quite nicely in freelancer  :wtf:
And many other games before it, including FreeSpace 1. Since jumpnodes aren't any different than Freelancers portals (or whatever they were called), except being natural occurances instead of artificial constructs, allthough Freelancer also has naturally occuring jumpholes.
Your point being?