[Logistics]

After debating a bit about the strategic situation the GTVA is in, in regards to the Shivans, I started thinking a bit about tactical improvements to even the odds a bit.

One thing that occurs to me is that while Shivan ships possess overwhelming firepower in regards to their beam weaponry, the effective rate of fire that they possess (at least in regards to game mechanics) is relatively slow to engage multiple targets, and they can only engage a single target at a time. From what I can recall in the game, the effective range of the beams is somewhere around 4 k. The effective range of maxim cannon appears to be somewhere between 3 and 3.5 k going from Blue Planet, which is well beyond the effective range of demonstrated point defenses.

Since the Shivan ships are admirably well suited to blowing up ships with overwhelming firepower, cede them that advantage. Just give them too many targets to shoot at. Put a single maxim cannon, with a small fighter-sized reactor into an escape pod, and a basic fire control computer to coordinate with nearby pods. You could seed hundreds of pods from ships outside of beam range, or drop them on top of them similar to an SSM strike. Existing fighters could provide cover against shivan fighters targeting the pods, while not giving the Shivans much to shoot at in return. Capital ships could concentrate on anti-fighter work and staying well outside of beam range, and bug out the moment there is a counter attack they cannot handle. Thoughts?

[crizza]

Why puting a maxim in a escape pod, if you can put two of them with24 Trebs in an Ares?

[The E]

Rule One of FS tactics: The most powerful ship is one you haven't deployed yet. Keeping your capships back while engaging the other side in close combat invites sudden, Lilith or Ravana-induced beamrape.

[General Battuta]

This is an interesting idea, and while it would probably invite countermeasures, is one that might well be explored.

[Logistics]

Rule One of FS tactics: The most powerful ship is one you haven't deployed yet. Keeping your capships back while engaging the other side in close combat invites sudden, Lilith or Ravana-induced beamrape.

Granted. But the capships in this case are little more then deployment platforms for the pods/drones. They aren't necessarily once the pods are deployed, except to provide cover against shivan fighters, which are the only reliable way they have to counter a swarm attack. The maxim cannon outranges their point defenses by a considerable margin.  The shivan 'beamrape' is impressive, but only if they get to use it against a suitable target. The drones would be designed to be cheap and expendable. Perhaps slightly more expensive if you throw in a jump drive, but still well within reason, if the SSM strike is any indication on the cost of small jump drives attached to missiles. I'm thinking of something similar to the sphere formation from Homeworld, if that gives a visual.

[The E]

Right, okay. Next topic, 80 Sathanases.

[PsychoLandlord]

It's certainly an interesting idea, but that would be a hell of a lot of drones you would need to dump out, and losses would probably be catastrophic (relatively speaking. They're drones, after all) even on a successful engagement. Eventually all of this would add up, no matter how inexpensive you make said drones, they are still going to be semi-autonomous military assets, and will cost much more than your standard subspace missile. How would you counter production costs, once serious losses were taken? And whats more, what would the drones do in the event the Shivans countered them with a REAL swarm of fighters? IIRC, Maxims don't handle shields very well, and your own guard fighters would have their hands full keeping themselves alive. Even barring successful retaliation, it would take a long time to bring down a Sathanas using said Maxims, even in numbers in the triple digits.

That said, if this was developed as an automated system for disabling and disarming Shivan Warships, and was used more situationally, it could be very effective.

[headdie]

It's certainly an interesting idea, but that would be a hell of a lot of drones you would need to dump out, and losses would probably be catastrophic (relatively speaking. They're drones, after all) even on a successful engagement.

how many amazon drones were killed in T-V/Great War era training? program them to stick to standoff range to give them a change, ok you will lose a lot to fighters but i figure the GTVA could produce these as fast as they did hornets

[PsychoLandlord]

how many amazon drones were killed in T-V/Great War era training? program them to stick to standoff range to give them a change, ok you will lose a lot to fighters but i figure the GTVA could produce these as fast as they did hornets

Fair enough. But then they need to be replenished after said losses, and I know that FS kinda glosses over Logistical Concerns but there's only so far I'm willing to go with suspension of disbelief. Drones are big.

Whats more, you haven't even factored in the point behind that sentence,  which was the huge production costs associated with those losses. And I guarantee a Combat Drone will be much more expensive than an amazon, of which many, IIRC, were actually digital representations in a simulator environment, according to the FS2 tutorials.

EDIT: I misread the "T-V/Great War era training" part of your post. My apologies.

[Luis Dias]

I'm thinking of something similar to the sphere formation from Homeworld, if that gives a visual.

Actually, your swarm idea did remind me immediately of a homeworld ship, the drone frigate:



What you are suggesting is something similar but in a bigger scale, so it could swarm a shivan, what, destroyer? Or it could serve as a fast deployer of anti-bombers.

It's an interesting concept. I hardly see how it defeats a sathanas, which is the real shivan threat here. I mean, the GTVA fleet has proven to be quite effective against the other ships.

I also think that crizza's question is relevant. Trebuchets are the best weapons GTVA has against the shivans: they are the best defense against beam rape. It just so happens that the sathanas beam weapons are so enormous, you need a lot more than trebuchets. And you won't destroy them with maxims.


But it seems like a fun novel idea. I guess if someone will take it to a campaign, it will burn once again the FPS rates of FSO... but what the hell

[Logistics]

Fair enough. But then they need to be replenished after said losses, and I know that FS kinda glosses over Logistical Concerns but there's only so far I'm willing to go with suspension of disbelief. Drones are big.

Whats more, you haven't even factored in the point behind that sentence,  which was the huge production costs associated with those losses. And I guarantee a Combat Drone will be much more expensive than an amazon, of which many, IIRC, were actually digital representations in a simulator environment, according to the FS2 tutorials.

EDIT: I misread the "T-V/Great War era training" part of your post. My apologies.

Well, to be specific in terms of economy, I was thinking of escape pods, stripped of everything except the physical shell, the engine, ammo, a reactor, and a dumb brain to drive it around. If I wanted to get fancy, I'd have all of them talk to each other to coordinate fire - or perhaps talk back to the deploying ship to coordinate it. They have nonexistant armor, pitiful engines, and zero maneuverability. But if deployed properly, they wouldn't need much in the way of any of that to hurt or destroy the enemy. The amazon drone, as far as I can surmise, is considerably more sophisticated then what I'm proposing - it has a bigger brain to actually fly it around reasonably, better engines, more armor, and more guns.

Your suggestion that they be used to disable and disarm is probably a better one then outright destroying them. Standard ships could follow up such an attack with more conventional means to despose of the ships once they had been defanged. Or failing that, a bunch of SSM strikes.

[crizza]

I know that killing a Sath's main beams with Trebs and Maxims is a hell of work...but that's the reason, why you deploy Boangers with fighter escorts...
Personally, I would prefer the UEF way: Just use AWACS to prevent beams from firing.

[PsychoLandlord]

Ah. See what you're describing is a lot more situational in use than what I thought you were getting at. For whatever reason I figured you were trying to get anime style attack bits into FS.

Now that we know what kind of Drones we're talking about, while that would probably (I dont think there are hard figures on the cost of the Maxim) be far less expensive than what I was describing, what you're getting at are essentially better armed turrets that can move around in a pinch. Obviously you wouldn't be deploying these in defense of your capital ships if they came under attack, or even offensively, really. They would need to be deployed in areas where you knew the enemy would be coming through in force. In that respect, they would make great node blockers, and potentially excellent ambush weapons, provided you can bait the Shivans. While probably more expensive than your average Sentry, the greater weapons payload and their ability to change position if necessary would go a long way towards justifying that cost.

EDIT: I would also like to point out that killing the beams on a Sath with Maxims is hard when you have, at best, four fighters shooting at it. Try it with 50 of these drones we're talking about. It wont hurt the Sath that much, but it will put a hell of a dent in that beam cannon.

[Luis Dias]

Just use AWACS to prevent beams from firing.

I never get it how does that thing work? Can't the tevs just *look* throughout the windows and, you know, manually fire the thing?

[Luis Dias]

Don't worry so much about "big brains" vs "dumb brains". I'm pretty sure that in the 24th century, cpu brains that cost 3 cents and are smarter than the fastest supercomputer running today will be pretty common.

I mean, doh.

[General Battuta]

Just use AWACS to prevent beams from firing.

I never get it how does that thing work? Can't the tevs just *look* throughout the windows and, you know, manually fire the thing?

fluff time

The beam requires a magnetic bottle all the way from the emitter to the target - the amount of sidescatter on the beams indicates it's not velocity-aligned and a blind fire would start going into cavitation. The AWACS interferes with this process at two steps: the initial sensor input to form the bottle, and then directly with the bottle generation via an electromagnetic effector.

[Logistics]

Don't worry so much about "big brains" vs "dumb brains". I'm pretty sure that in the 24th century, cpu brains that cost 3 cents and are smarter than the fastest supercomputer running today will be pretty common.

I mean, doh.

Well, I was going for economy. Every cent counts, since these would be almost certain to take significant casualties - so that 2 cent brain gives you 50 more drones down the line. It wouldn't need much more then the ability to station keep with their targets, and shoot at what it's pointed at.

As far as not going offensive with them, well, I did propose up a bit earlier about sticking a jump drive on them. A bit more expensive, but it would also take  away the risk of taking the time to deploy them via a ship. Swarm the destroyer/Jugg, knock out the weapons that are the real danger to your standard fleet, then proceed as usual against any of the escorts. In a real sense, the weapons are the danger - the physical ship is a navigational hazard.

[Luis Dias]

Just use AWACS to prevent beams from firing.

I never get it how does that thing work? Can't the tevs just *look* throughout the windows and, you know, manually fire the thing?

fluff time

The beam requires a magnetic bottle all the way from the emitter to the target - the amount of sidescatter on the beams indicates it's not velocity-aligned and a blind fire would start going into cavitation. The AWACS interferes with this process at two steps: the initial sensor input to form the bottle, and then directly with the bottle generation via an electromagnetic effector.

Oh , of course, what was I thinking? So bloody obvious

[PsychoLandlord]

As far as not going offensive with them, well, I did propose up a bit earlier about sticking a jump drive on them. A bit more expensive, but it would also take  away the risk of taking the time to deploy them via a ship. Swarm the destroyer/Jugg, knock out the weapons that are the real danger to your standard fleet, then proceed as usual against any of the escorts. In a real sense, the weapons are the danger - the physical ship is a navigational hazard.

The problem I foresee with using them in such a manner is that, unless you have some epically precise jump calculations, chances are they're going to come out in a random spot all bunched up. Ideally you would want them in, like you described earlier, a Homeworld Sphere formation or something similar. 

Thinking about it, though, if you had a spotter vessel such as an Aurora or a Charybdis in the area to vector them, then they could certainly be jumped into the area in an advantageous position.  SSM's come in in spheres, after all.

Also, thanks for the fluff read Battuta. I'm guessing that means AWACS can also screw with Shivan beams, since they work on a similar principle?

[General Battuta]

A more puzzling question is exactly how torpedoes and even Narayana mass drivers can be jammed given how slow (or stationary) the targets are

the answer is that ECM is magic

Also, thanks for the fluff read Battuta. I'm guessing that means AWACS can also screw with Shivan beams, since they work on a similar principle?

No way to know until we try!