[gloowa]

how Sol is going to change once the assult on Earth is successfully resolved and the GTVA take control of Sol.

Not going to happen. Over my dead body. Nope.avi



IMO, you assume too much

[EDIT]
But assuming they DO win... It all comes down to if they go all Stalin on UEF population. If yes - major civil unrest until Shivans show up to mop up humanity and Zods. In not - minor civil unrest until Shivans show up to mop up humanity and Zods

[Gray113]

The BP team rely on the existence of parallel universes - this means that there is going to be a universe where the UEF win and one where the GTVA win, I'm just hoping that the one we get to play is the UEF victory.
Which conveniently helps my dodgy posts

[Phantom Hoover]

We know that there's one alternative universe with an unknown point of divergence. Nothing more.

[crazy_dave]

I'm hijacking my own threads now 

Well I helped - And to continue with that hijacking ... 

I'm not sure if the UEF quite has the strength to fully push the GTA out purely militarily - more likely stalling them with political will to keep fighting in the GTA vanishing. I do agree an internal confrontation within the UEF seems likely at this point sometime in the next couple of acts, plus we don't know what the Elders' end game is yet. And who knows what Vishnans and Shivans will do before or after the civil war conflict is resolved. I can totally see the GTA forces making a run for the node ... but not because the UEF have driven them out ... but because the Shivans are back!

[crizza]

Just turn them into area denial defense boats.

Keep the flak, rip out the rest of the armaments and replace with Ter Pulse, more flak, and Anti Fighter beams. Turns all these frigates into suped up Aeoli that can carry fighters.

Might not be feasible for the solaris, but hey it would be damn cool. Can you imagine a solaris dedicated purely to shooting down fighters? My god it would be a monster.

Not possible...

[Crybertrance]

I'm hijacking my own threads now 

Well I helped - And to continue with that hijacking ... 

I'm not sure if the UEF quite has the strength to fully push the GTA out purely militarily - more likely stalling them with political will to keep fighting in the GTA vanishing. I do agree an internal confrontation within the UEF seems likely at this point sometime in the next couple of acts, plus we don't know what the Elders' end game is yet. And who knows what Vishnans and Shivans will do before or after the civil war conflict is resolved. I can totally see the GTA forces making a run for the node ... but not because the UEF have driven them out ... but because the Shivans are back!

Actually, no. If the Shivans do pop up in GTVA space, Steele will just do the "Decisive attack on Earth" thing and finish the civil war, then go running through the node. It would be a logistical and strategic nightmare to jump back to Tev space at that time, and anyway, the GTVA probably has at least 40 Destroyers (zods included) on the other side of the node to take care of the situation.

[gloowa]

Actually, no. If the Shivans do pop up in GTVA space, Steele will just do the "Decisive attack on Earth" thing and finish the civil war, then go running through the node. It would be a logistical and strategic nightmare to jump back to Tev space at that time, and anyway, the GTVA probably has at least 40 Destroyers (zods included) on the other side of the node to take care of the situation.

Unless of course Shivan arrival breaks Steele time table and supply lines and his "Decisive attack on Earth" ends up as failed or unresolved. Also, 40 destroyers? wow... imagine the Shivan terror at prospect of facing them. Shivans can roll hundred Juggers if they wish. Only reason humanity still exists at this point is because extermination was NOT the objective in either the first or second Shivan incursion (at least in BP universe). If it was, Freespace 1 would have been a VERY short game

[Suongadon]

What other choice would the tevs have? 'Yo, Elder folks. We'd take it as a kindness if you'd like, stop working on that Shambayla thing till we blow up some jump nodes and stop the Shivans. We'll be back to pick this civil war thing up in a few months, and we'll get back to beating you before you can finish it. Yeah.'

[crazy_dave]

What other choice would the tevs have? 'Yo, Elder folks. We'd take it as a kindness if you'd like, stop working on that Shambayla thing till we blow up some jump nodes and stop the Shivans. We'll be back to pick this civil war thing up in a few months, and we'll get back to beating you before you can finish it. Yeah.'

Actually, no. If the Shivans do pop up in GTVA space, Steele will just do the "Decisive attack on Earth" thing and finish the civil war, then go running through the node. It would be a logistical and strategic nightmare to jump back to Tev space at that time, and anyway, the GTVA probably has at least 40 Destroyers (zods included) on the other side of the node to take care of the situation.

Well we don't exactly know what the secret Shambayla plan is, only that it isn't a strictly speaking a weapon. We do know it was originally designed to counter the Shivan threat and now it is something "more".

Also I was just being flippant , but as gloowa said, they may not have time to launch the decisive victory on the heels of a Shivan incursion and yeah I think if humanity is doomed by the Shivans, the UEF and GTA, that is a really good reason to stop fighting, just as the Vasudans and GTA did once they finally realized the extent of the danger they faced from the Shivans. We are talking about the extinction of the species and blowing up nodes is not necessarily a guarantee of success against the Shivans since they can use unstable subspace nodes. If anything the GTA could start begging the UEF to deploy Shambayla ... depending of course on what exactly the dang thing is! It might be something no one but the Elders and the Vishnans think is a good idea. Or who knows if even the Vishnans know about it? I don't think that has been made clear.

Plus a decisive victory is decidedly less decisive if you have to immediately abandon your just won territory.

[gloowa]

humanity is doomed by the Shivans, the UEF and GTA, that is a really good reason to stop fighting

I wouldn't place much faith in Tevs realising that.

On the other hand, with Elders now apparently working for humanity extinction as well (at least in it's current carbon-based, oxygen breathing, bipedal form) i think humanz placed themselves in perfect loose-loose situation. Very human actually, when i come to think of it.

Sidenote:
Am i the only one confused by

Spoiler:

the vast discrepancies in Vishnan-Shivan dailogue in AoA Unviersal Truth vs Tenebra Universal Truth

?

[crazy_dave]

humanity is doomed by the Shivans, the UEF and GTA, that is a really good reason to stop fighting

I wouldn't place much faith in Tevs realising that.

On the other hand, with Elders now apparently working for humanity extinction as well (at least in it's current carbon-based, oxygen breathing, bipedal form) i think humanz placed themselves in perfect loose-loose situation. Very human actually, when i come to think of it.

Sidenote:
Am i the only one confused by

Spoiler:

the vast discrepancies in Vishnan-Shivan dailogue in AoA Unviersal Truth vs Tenebra Universal Truth

?

I would ... the Tevs are ruthless to a fault, but not completely stupid

I'm not sure what the Elders' plan actually is ...

I honestly haven't played the original AoA campaign in awhile so I can't really comment, but I guess wouldn't be surprised if there were discrepancies as the story has ... evolved.

[Phantom Hoover]

In AoA, you're playing a man who has been groomed since birth by the Vishnans.

In WiH, you're playing a woman who has been groomed since birth by the Shivans.

[crazy_dave]

In AoA, you're playing a man who has been groomed since birth by the Vishnans.

In WiH, you're playing a woman who has been groomed since birth by the Shivans.

True though ... I thought that just changed to way they viewed the exchange rather than what was actually being said? Or is that each side Vishnan and Shivan is changing the translation to suit their agenda?

[gloowa]

I would ... the Tevs are ruthless to a fault, but not completely stupid

Remains to be proven by any empirical data. <wink>
(Talking about society as a whole. Steele is obviously a brilliant (if ruthless) person)

I honestly haven't played the original AoA campaign in awhile so I can't really comment, but I guess wouldn't be surprised if there were discrepancies as the story has ... evolved.

Yeah, i don;t think this has anything to do with 'evolution' of the story. They basically say the same things, but differently. Also, the Vishnan version seems to be 'propagandated' - it sums a very long response/explanation from Shivans as "We won't" [let them pass].

On the other hand it may be the Shivan version is more truthful. Or perhaps they are BOTH true. Or neither?

Anyway, Whatever the aftermath of GTVA victory may be, the aftermath of GTVA welcoming their long lost brothers and sisters with beam fire will have (already has) much more dire repercussions. (Why hello there Mr. Sathanas 312, please form an orderly queue at the jump node, right behind Mr. Dante)

[Veers]

Something I find interesting... is that the Vishnan grooming has happened to someone who has been in contact with the Shivans (hostile contact)
And that the Shivan grooming has happened to someone who... who's enlightened leaders have been in contact with the Vishnans.

I think I worded that ok enough to make sense.

[crazy_dave]

I would ... the Tevs are ruthless to a fault, but not completely stupid

Remains to be proven by any empirical data. <wink>
(Talking about society as a whole. Steele is obviously a brilliant (if ruthless) person)

I honestly haven't played the original AoA campaign in awhile so I can't really comment, but I guess wouldn't be surprised if there were discrepancies as the story has ... evolved.

Yeah, i don;t think this has anything to do with 'evolution' of the story. They basically say the same things, but differently. Also, the Vishnan version seems to be 'propagandated' - it sums a very long response/explanation from Shivans as "We won't" [let them pass].

On the other hand it may be the Shivan version is more truthful. Or perhaps they are BOTH true. Or neither?

Anyway, Whatever the aftermath of GTVA victory may be, the aftermath of GTVA welcoming their long lost brothers and sisters with beam fire will have (already has) much more dire repercussions. (Why hello there Mr. Sathanas 312, please form an orderly queue at the jump node, right behind Mr. Dante)

That definitely sounds more like propaganda than a mere difference in perspective. I really wouldn't trust either of them. Although it is odd ... what's broken down on the cosmic scale since the implication is that Shivans and Vishnans are no longer cooperating in that other universe and now ours (and how much comm is there between universes for each species)? Of course there are a huge amount of implications from that little exchange between the Vishnans and Shivans about who is what and why. From something Ken said, it made it sounds like the Vishnans could order the Shivans to do something - that they were going order the destruction of man by the Shivans, but from the exchange and other information, the Shivans are actually older than the Vishnans. 

I am also surprised the GTA security council reached the decision they did when it was strongly theorized in the GTVA by both Vasudans and Humans that the Shivans might be attracted to war even without the above knowledge. It seems an awful risk to then go to war even just suspecting that - even if you think humans are better off with your form of government to face the Shivans and if you are afraid of alien influence within the other government. Whatever their end game plan for Sol actually is, they're risking extinction by doing this. Unless they actually do know what Shambayla (sic?) and decided it was worth the risk of extinction to stop it, but I dunno: they don't seem to know about it and it's hard to imagine what else could cause them to take such extreme measures...

Of course that's also the trouble about theorizing what the GTA's occupation of Sol would be like, as long or short as it may be before armageddon. I'm not sure we know all the motives yet.

Even the Shivans ... it's odd. They want GTVA defeated/destroyed but also seem to want Laporte to stop the Elders and Shambayla. It's hard to see what exactly their angle is - especially, as aforementioned, with respect to the Vishnans. Also the Fedayeen made mention that the Shivans were more complicated but their counterparts motives were easier to understand (or maybe I flipped that around?). However, they didn't seem to elaborate on that.

[CT27]

Assuming a GTVA victory and assuming it gets access to UEF technology, I could see the GTVA phasing in these weapons for use:

Paveway
Slammer


Are there any other UEF weapons you think the GTVA would take for their own use?

[An4ximandros]

 The Universal Truth is that there is no Universal Truth! Both sides show you their point of view, the Shivans countering the near absolute pacifism of the Federation does not surprise me, the Vishnans trying to give order to the GTVA does not either.
 The point is that they have to be on a balanced center point, a good creator knows what to destroy and recreate and what to preserve and build upon, and isn't a Brahma what the Shishnans need according to the protocol?

 Possibly worthy of note, The Shivan Node in 'Ken' gives a repeating conversation:

(...) reify engage resolve interrupt! reassess escalate consult hierachy
diverge project project goal reset CONSEAL tremor locate assess
contextualize diverge preserve/destroy select cull threshold reify
engage resolve interrupt! reassess interrupt! reassess escalate
consult hierarchy diverge diverge project CONCEAL project goal reset
CONCEAL tremor locate assess contextualize diverge preserve/destroy (...)

 It's been clear since the first half of WIH that the Shivans are ignoring their cull order and ignoring the Vishnan probing about their intentions. Probably because they do not with for more preservers, but builders.

 Request: can an moderator/admin please get the off-topic pieces of this thread cut out into a new one? We seem to have made quite a derail. It would best to keep this thread about the hypothetical Tev victory.

[Drogoth]

I would ... the Tevs are ruthless to a fault, but not completely stupid

Remains to be proven by any empirical data. <wink>
(Talking about society as a whole. Steele is obviously a brilliant (if ruthless) person)

I honestly haven't played the original AoA campaign in awhile so I can't really comment, but I guess wouldn't be surprised if there were discrepancies as the story has ... evolved.

Yeah, i don;t think this has anything to do with 'evolution' of the story. They basically say the same things, but differently. Also, the Vishnan version seems to be 'propagandated' - it sums a very long response/explanation from Shivans as "We won't" [let them pass].

On the other hand it may be the Shivan version is more truthful. Or perhaps they are BOTH true. Or neither?

Anyway, Whatever the aftermath of GTVA victory may be, the aftermath of GTVA welcoming their long lost brothers and sisters with beam fire will have (already has) much more dire repercussions. (Why hello there Mr. Sathanas 312, please form an orderly queue at the jump node, right behind Mr. Dante)

That definitely sounds more like propaganda than a mere difference in perspective. I really wouldn't trust either of them. Although it is odd ... what's broken down on the cosmic scale since the implication is that Shivans and Vishnans are no longer cooperating in that other universe and now ours (and how much comm is there between universes for each species)? Of course there are a huge amount of implications from that little exchange between the Vishnans and Shivans about who is what and why. From something Ken said, it made it sounds like the Vishnans could order the Shivans to do something - that they were going order the destruction of man by the Shivans, but from the exchange and other information, the Shivans are actually older than the Vishnans. 

I am also surprised the GTA security council reached the decision they did when it was strongly theorized in the GTVA by both Vasudans and Humans that the Shivans might be attracted to war even without the above knowledge. It seems an awful risk to then go to war even just suspecting that - even if you think humans are better off with your form of government to face the Shivans and if you are afraid of alien influence within the other government. Whatever their end game plan for Sol actually is, they're risking extinction by doing this. Unless they actually do know what Shambayla (sic?) and decided it was worth the risk of extinction to stop it, but I dunno: they don't seem to know about it and it's hard to imagine what else could cause them to take such extreme measures...

Of course that's also the trouble about theorizing what the GTA's occupation of Sol would be like, as long or short as it may be before armageddon. I'm not sure we know all the motives yet.

Even the Shivans ... it's odd. They want GTVA defeated/destroyed but also seem to want Laporte to stop the Elders and Shambayla. It's hard to see what exactly their angle is - especially, as aforementioned, with respect to the Vishnans. Also the Fedayeen made mention that the Shivans were more complicated but their counterparts motives were easier to understand (or maybe I flipped that around?). However, they didn't seem to elaborate on that.

It was supposed to be a lightning strike, jumping in under a friendly flag, locking above major cities and then demanding surrender.

AoA screwed it up

[crazy_dave]

Request: can an moderator/admin please get the off-topic pieces of this thread cut out into a new one? We seem to have made quite a derail. It would best to keep this thread about the hypothetical Tev victory.

Yeah that's partially my fault, sorry about that to the mods!

The Universal Truth is that there is no Universal Truth! Both sides show you their point of view, the Shivans countering the near absolute pacifism of the Federation does not surprise me, the Vishnans trying to give order to the GTVA does not either.
 The point is that they have to be on a balanced center point, a good creator knows what to destroy and recreate and what to preserve and build upon, and isn't a Brahma what the Shishnans need according to the protocol?

 Possibly worthy of note, The Shivan Node in 'Ken' gives a repeating conversation:

(...) reify engage resolve interrupt! reassess escalate consult hierachy
diverge project project goal reset CONSEAL tremor locate assess
contextualize diverge preserve/destroy select cull threshold reify
engage resolve interrupt! reassess interrupt! reassess escalate
consult hierarchy diverge diverge project CONCEAL project goal reset
CONCEAL tremor locate assess contextualize diverge preserve/destroy (...)

 It's been clear since the first half of WIH that the Shivans are ignoring their cull order and ignoring the Vishnan probing about their intentions. Probably because they do not with for more preservers, but builders.

Which is interesting because in the other universe they were gung-ho about continuing the cull and Vishnans were trying to stop it. In the other version the Vishnans believe you to be Brahmins and the Shivans don't.  One is lead to believe that the Vishnans and Shivans have since changed their respective minds of the survival of humanity, but why would the Shivans care? The hypothesis of the UEF is that Vishnans want humanity destroyed because the UEF failed to stop the war with the GTVA - in any version neither the Vishnans nor the Shivans seem to like the GTA. Also in AoA that Vishnans said they thought humans could be the new brahmins ... but in this version their purpose was secretive. It's also interesting that Ken seems like he is trying to say before he gets pulled away "The Great Preservers! Remember WE [Shivans] are the Great ..." Preservers?. In each version of UT, each side accuses the other of pursuing their own agenda.

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark!

It was supposed to be a lightning strike, jumping in under a friendly flag, locking above major cities and then demanding surrender.

AoA screwed it up

I recognize that, but even that was the plan ... how does the quote go ... "plans are always great until they meet contact with the enemy"? It's still a huuuuge risk given the consequences - while it got borked about as badly as it could have done by the events in AoA (actually it could've gone even worse for the GTA if Bei had been cagier about his defection), there are so many other things that could've gone wrong that would've resulted in the plan not working. And they haven't stopped fighting either which they could've when it became clear a quick strike was no longer going to work.