[Snail]

Well the Nebiros appears twice (in Into the Lion's Den as well as Dunkerque) so I think that basically means the Shivans don't have THAT many destroyers in-system.

[karajorma]

When someone with 24 thousand posts tells you something, you should learn to LISTEN.

Actually I don't mind being challenged on my ideas as long as the person doing it plays by the same rules I use (State your assumptions and don't act like they're any more valid than similar ones I can make in the opposite direction).

The Colossus couldn't help if they attacked the Bastion either way.  It'd either be annihilated or playing chase with a Sathanas.

I'm sure it couldn't but the Shivans are taking a direct interest in the Colossus and we know that the Shivans are actually quite smart when it comes to tactics when they want to be. If they tried leading the Sathanas on a merry chase then the Shivans might simply decide to attack something that will bring the Colossus to it's defence. Something the GTVA seems to be regarding as extra important. Oh look, they're taking great pains to protect that destroyer!

[TrashMan]

No exactly a valid point. The GTVA are taking great pains to protect every single transport in the system too.

Besides, would the shivans be afraid of chasing a damaged Collie? They sent a Ravana after it - not a very smart move mind you.
Altough it wouldn't be a merry chase - the Collie really can't run far (this hold even more true is shivan jump drives charge faster)

[TrashMan]

Well the Nebiros appears twice (in Into the Lion's Den as well as Dunkerque) so I think that basically means the Shivans don't have THAT many destroyers in-system.

dude..in Into the Lions Den the Nebiros was just arriving.. later it's in Capella. What does that have to do with number of shivan destroyers?
Just how do you make conclusions like that is beyond me....

[Snail]

Just how do you make conclusions like that is beyond me....

That was a weak, very weak argument on my part.

No exactly a valid point. The GTVA are taking great pains to protect every single transport in the system too.

So every transport has several fighter wings and three cruisers protecting it?

[TrashMan]

So every transport has several fighter wings and three cruisers protecting it?

Transports go in groups given they are small ships with not much defenses... and all convoys in-game had escorts - fighters, cruisers, even vettes.

[Snail]

The Bastion and its escort were the only ships going to the Epsilon Pegasi node, may I add.

[TrashMan]

Where do you get that from? They are surely the LAST ships to go there, but the only ones?

[Jeff Vader]

Quoting canon material is fun.

As we speak, convoys of transports, freighters, and medical ships are heading for the jump nodes to Vega and Epsilon Pegasi.

So technically, Trash has a point. This piece suggests that evacuation ships were heading for the Epsilon Pegasi node, as well. But before the Bastion, for obvious reasons.

[nowd]

The task force defending the Bastion has been decimated. Only three ships remain:...

The Bastion was protected by more than three cruisers. The three cruisers were just the only ships left by the time Alpha 1 arrives.

[WMCoolmon]

It'd be a fun mini-campaign to watch the effects on that escort as it starts out as a heroic force with a destroyer, corvettes, cruisers, etc and slowly gets knocked down to shambles 'til the point where Alpha 1 arrives.

It's quite clearly stated that shivan forces are everywhere in the system. The Saths are holding position around the sun, so it's not them attakcing (altough their fighters are surely involved).

The shivies had a lot of other warship in-system. Warships they could have evacuated 5 minutes before the bang and leave us scratching our heads, wondering why they did that, only for the blast to give us the answer.

Assume for the moment that the Sathanas fleet's purpose is top priority, and that the Sathanas fleet is in a weakened or more vulnerable state than it would be otherwise. I feel both of these assumptions are supported by canon since if neither were true, there would be no point to sacrificing all the ships in the system (unless what we saw was the Great Shivan Suicide, their equivalent to the poisoned punch bowl)

So the other ships were there as an 'acceptable loss' to keep the GTVA from doing anything untoward, or snooping around too much. Pulling out 5 minutes early would leave the GTVA scratching their heads, but the GTVA would also have time to realize what was happening and either stage its own withdrawal, or start desperately attacking the Sathanas fleet.

No exactly a valid point. The GTVA are taking great pains to protect every single transport in the system too.

Besides, would the shivans be afraid of chasing a damaged Collie? They sent a Ravana after it - not a very smart move mind you.
Altough it wouldn't be a merry chase - the Collie really can't run far (this hold even more true is shivan jump drives charge faster)

Given the fact that the GTVA is defending every single transport in the system, the fact that they would allocate so many resources to an outdated destroyer not participating in any combat would be very telling. To be consistent with everything else they were doing, the Bastion would be out there defending the transports. As it was the Shivans might not know it was packed with Meson warheads, but they could certainly deduce that it was of greater importance to the GTVA than any of the refugee transports.

The Bastion would also be in a position where the Sathanas could sit there in its flight path without even firing any weapons and the Colossus would be forced to attack the Sathanas anyway.

[Snail]

I hate it when people think the Shivans are idiots. That's why I'm trying to defend the Shivan's motives on sending in their ships when Capella blows up, but it looks like this is a completely futile argument.

[General Battuta]

I don't think the Shivans are idiots. Any inexplicable behavior on their part can be attributed to their alien psychology and their totally unknown motives.

We keep saying things like 'even the Shivans wouldn't want to throw ships away', but we really have no basis for that assumption at all. We're just applying human priorities to them.  Every time we try to understand them, we anthropomorphize them on some level.

I think it's that completely alien aspect to the Shivans that makes them such excellent characters.

[TrashMan]

Assume for the moment that the Sathanas fleet's purpose is top priority, and that the Sathanas fleet is in a weakened or more vulnerable state than it would be otherwise. I feel both of these assumptions are supported by canon since if neither were true, there would be no point to sacrificing all the ships in the system (unless what we saw was the Great Shivan Suicide, their equivalent to the poisoned punch bowl)

So the other ships were there as an 'acceptable loss' to keep the GTVA from doing anything untoward, or snooping around too much. Pulling out 5 minutes early would leave the GTVA scratching their heads, but the GTVA would also have time to realize what was happening and either stage its own withdrawal, or start desperately attacking the Sathanas fleet.

I considered that.
What could the GTVA do in 5 minutes to 80 saths + fighter complement? It was still busy defending the civies...just the saths fighters would be enough to keep the GTVA busy.
And the GTVA can't really pull out in 5 minutes even if it wanted to. By the time the observation that many shivan ships are leaving he system get's processed, the 2  2 are put together and the order for evacuation given, it will already be too late.

Given the fact that the GTVA is defending every single transport in the system, the fact that they would allocate so many resources to an outdated destroyer not participating in any combat would be very telling. To be consistent with everything else they were doing, the Bastion would be out there defending the transports. As it was the Shivans might not know it was packed with Meson warheads, but they could certainly deduce that it was of greater importance to the GTVA than any of the refugee transports.

Not neccesarily. For all they know that destroyer might be pulling out, and destroyer come in fleets..with escorts.
Secondly, if it's a old destroyer, as the Bastion was, as far as the shivans know it might be used as a very big transports...and thus needs a big escort.
It's a big system..a lot of fleet movements..ships going in an out.

And shivans didn't appear to make any target selection at all. They were lashing out at anything that moves.

[Hades]

No exactly a valid point. The GTVA are taking great pains to protect every single transport in the system too.

Besides, would the shivans be afraid of chasing a damaged Collie? They sent a Ravana after it - not a very smart move mind you.
Altough it wouldn't be a merry chase - the Collie really can't run far (this hold even more true is shivan jump drives charge faster)

Proof?
Before you tell people to not jump to conclusions you need to do it as well.
No were in the game does it say that Shivan jump drives charge faster.
It does say that they might be able to jump through unstable nodes, that is it IIRC.

[karajorma]

Assume for the moment that the Sathanas fleet's purpose is top priority, and that the Sathanas fleet is in a weakened or more vulnerable state than it would be otherwise. I feel both of these assumptions are supported by canon since if neither were true, there would be no point to sacrificing all the ships in the system (unless what we saw was the Great Shivan Suicide, their equivalent to the poisoned punch bowl)

So the other ships were there as an 'acceptable loss' to keep the GTVA from doing anything untoward, or snooping around too much. Pulling out 5 minutes early would leave the GTVA scratching their heads, but the GTVA would also have time to realize what was happening and either stage its own withdrawal, or start desperately attacking the Sathanas fleet.

In addition what if blowing up Capella actually requires 80 Sathanas Juggernauts in order to work? What if blowing one up at the wrong time can cause the whole thing to fizzle? Hell they might not even need to kill the entire ship either. Blowing a beam cannon or two might do it. And the Shivans know damn well that a bomber wing can do that very quickly.

I find it interesting that the throw the Beast at the Colossus even though it should be pretty obvious it can't possibly win and only send in the Sathanas once victory is much more likely.

And for that matter it could be that evacuation always was the plan but things were scuppered by the Colossus turning up and blocking the escape route. The ships we see in the last mission are mainly smaller capships. We don't know what happened to the Nebiros. Maybe it did evacuate.

[TrashMan]

No exactly a valid point. The GTVA are taking great pains to protect every single transport in the system too.

Besides, would the shivans be afraid of chasing a damaged Collie? They sent a Ravana after it - not a very smart move mind you.
Altough it wouldn't be a merry chase - the Collie really can't run far (this hold even more true is shivan jump drives charge faster)

Proof?
Before you tell people to not jump to conclusions you need to do it as well.
No were in the game does it say that Shivan jump drives charge faster.
It does say that they might be able to jump through unstable nodes, that is it IIRC.

That statement is true assuming the dries charge the same. I said it holds EVEN MORE true if shivans charge faster. Where the hell do you see me claiming something wrong here?

As for great pains to protecting transports, Petrarchs command briefing is more than evidence enough, as are the escort ships for the convoy - cruisers and corvettes.


@Kajorama

It's evident that shivans needed a lot of power and time for whatever they were doing. Loosing 1 Sath could very well be a big blow.

However, given their proximity and the number of fighters they wield, as well as GTVA having to commit huge resources for convoy escorts, any attack on the saths is very unlikely to even be initiated, let alone work.

I could be wrong on this but shivans were fighting up to the supernova, any major movement of shivans ships towards the node would be detected.

[karajorma]

There were no ships at the Gamma Draconis node after the Colossus was destroyed. So we have no idea if ships were leaving the system.

Besides you're assuming again that the GTVA would give every scrap of information they had to a squadron leader. Which isn't how they work at all.

[Demetrious]

I thought the end of the Colossus was highly anticlimatic. One of the strengths of Freespace 2 is that the capship battles redefine epic, and yet the kind of threw away a chance to have a righteous showdown. Thematically, it would have been nice for the Colossus, which is a symbol of the GTVA, to go down with all guns blazing, instead of "oh lawl a juggernaut we're boned."

On the other hand, that might have been intentional, to impress upon the player how how utterly hopeless things were. The GTVA Collossus was a six-kilometer long battleship, wielding the most amazing and powerful weaponry ever developed. Most astoundingly, it took twenty entire years to build the ship, as well as an insane amount of resources.

The Shivans have about eighty or so.

 

Eighty of their own equivalent ships. It took the GTVA 20 YEARS and an insane amount of resources, manpower and money to put together one. If that isn't bad enough, the Shivan ships are more powerful, one for one. The Sathanis class is just about a match for the Colossus with only half of its primary armament. With all four main cannons operational, it'll really kick it's tail. And they have eighty of them, just that we've seen.

Contrast this with the arrogance of the GTVA forces earlier in the game. As you're flying through the nebula: "... then we'll show them what firepower is really about!" Then a pilot says "It's a miracle we won the Great War- no beam weapons, no flack cannons..." The GTVA's arrogance and confidence in their new technology is quite obvious, and the game designers go through a lot of effort to impress that on you. Then, BOOM, no more Collossus and a metric ton of Shivan Juggernauts.

The ability of the Shivans to build eighty Juggernaught class vessels while the GTVA can barely muster one raises a lot of questions for me. For starters, why did the Shivans abandon the Lucifer class so easily? Thought beam cannons are awesome, the old Shivan Super Laser is still much more impressive. Even with Beam cannons, the shield system on the Lucifer still makes it pretty much impervious to anything. Given this fact, the arrogance of the GTVA is rather astounding, along with their assumption that the Shivans wouldn't develop comparable technologies.

The fact that the Ancients encountered the same defense technologies thousands of years ago, and Shivan design philosophy (heavy shields, no amour, the very existence of the SD Lucifer in the first place,) shows that they not only gained shield tech ages ago, but have since come to rely on it. And yet, despite having a civilization many thousands of years in age older then the Terrans and Vasudans, we were still able to catch up to their level of tech very fast. The GTVA probably assumed that the Shivans developed tech very slowly, (and Terrans/Vasudens advance very, very fast,) or follow a "legacy" format in their technology- without anybody demonstrating an ability to penetrate their shields, or offer a defense similar in it's quality, they had no need to advance their tech. Necessity is the mother of invention. So I would wager that the GTVA reasonably assumed that an enemy who'd relied on roughly the same level of tech for thousands of years wouldn't pull any big advances out of the hat in only 32, but hey, look what the GTVA has cooked up! They were expecting to fight the same old jukes.

Boy, were they surprised.

[Kie99]

Great first post.  In theory, the reason there weren't more Lucifers is that

a)GTVA weaponry was powerful enough to get through the shield
b)It can be crushed by a wing of bombers in a subspace node due to its reactors  Other ships in the Shivan Armada don't have this weakness.

And while a lot of people think the SSL is more powerful than a BFRed, that's just perception.  4 BRed salvos (One blast from a Sathanas) can take out an Orion, it took 5 or 6 for the Galatea.  I can see why you'd think it, the SSL was so much more powerful than anything else in Freespace, I thought the same myself for a while.

The GTVA weren't just arrogant re: the Shivans, they were ignorant as well.  We knew from the Ancient Monologues that they were a civilisation spanning galaxies, and we knew that there were enough impervious vessels to destroy a civilisation spanning galaxies.  That should have told the GTVA all they needed to know about their chances against the Shivans.  Although if the GTVA had been realistic and sealed off the Shivans immediately, it would have made for a piss-poor game.