[CommanderDJ]

Hey,
I know that we don't have any canon info on this, so I thought I'd get the community's opinion on it: The way I see it, jump nodes in space are sort of like borders between countries. So is it likely that there would be GTVA checkpoints or some sort of border security at jump nodes? All the jump nodes we've seen have been actual combat zones, so yeah. I dunno. Thoughts?

CommanderDJ

[Dilmah G]

I certainly think it's plausible. Having a Fenris or something with a wing of fighters that run a patrol around the node, with the former having its beams pointed at the node and doing checks is what I'd imagine.

I mean, it's just silly to leave them unprotected and unobserved. Although, they may even have some kind of police force that does it for them.

* Dilmah G recalls the intro to G-Police.

[X3N0-Life-Form]

Well, the GTC Vigilant was destroyed while patrolling the Gamma Draconnis jump node, iirc, so yeah, it would make sense.

[headdie]

It would depend on the era.

Late Reconstruction and other generally peaceful times you could easily justify a couple of fighter wings buzzing round performing spot checks.  the armament of most freighters we have seen is light enough to the point that a few fighters are enough to disable anything of interest that is non compliant.  in your analogy it would be similar to the European Union.

Early - Mid reconstruction era and similar when the Terran territory's are fragmented then you analogy holds a lot truer and border checkpoints probably look a lot like the blockades we see in the game

[Scotty]

Prepare for in-depth:

Node checkpoints are a vital strategic, tactical, and economic necessity for the GTVA.  Nodes are hubs of traffic, and chokepoints to any incursion.

On the strategic scale, nodes are what determine where the lines on the map are drawn.  They are the single most vital form of transportation for fleets on both the attack and defensive.  Take the node, cut the lines of reinforcement and redeployment. 

Tactically, they are massive liabilities.  Any defending force has to keep a tight watch on them in times of war, or be jumped and summarily destroyed by a transiting larger enemy fleet.  They also anchor any picket in place, making them VERY easy targets for fighter and bomber wings.  Bait them, stay just out of engagement range, distract them while heavier elements move up, or pull them out of position and cut their retreat.  Even with subspace, it's still possible to do that within limited volumes.

Economically, they are trade, full stop.  The only way goods travel from one system to another, and also the only way communications and people transit as well.  Cut it, and you stem the lifeblood of trade, cut the spread of news, and, once again, plug the redeployment lines.

Truth be told, I'm hugely surprised any given (important) node isn't staffed with at least an installation, a few dozen sentry guns (and Mjolnirs) and at LEAST a pair of Cruisers, if not a permanent Corvette with fighter escort.  They're just too damned important to leave undefended.

Plus, I bet pirates would absolutely LOVE to jump merchants and freighters that have just emerged from an intersystem jump.  Makes a nodal escort and defense even more of an obvious solution.

You guys need to stop thinking of these things like borders that span hundreds of miles like on Earth and instead like thin, difficult to defend, enormously valuable bridges that link together tiny, insignificant islands in the vast cosmos.  They are vital and must be defended.  Full stop.

[Black Wolf]

And yet, we don't see that in canon. Realistically, you're bang on, but from what we've seen as fact... I dunno. There just aren't enough installations and such at nodes to make this likely. I think headdie might be onto something (that it depends on the era).

Lesse...

FS1 - no real reason to put installations near nodes, as the front line systems woud have been semi fluid during the war, taking and losing a system every now and then. Plus, a large installation away from a node gives you a fallback position if the node is taken, from which to plan a counterattack or retreat. What's odd is the lack of stationary infrastructure - perhaps the GTA/PVN decided it was more efficient to use cruisers to guard the nodes, which could jump away when damaged, be repaired, and then reused, rather than spending the equivalent amount of money on something that was stuck at the node?

FS2 - Stable interstellar society, no real enemy threat except the shivans (at least, after the formation of the GTVA and before the NTF). Pirates also have never been seen canonically to attack active, moving ships, only to try and steal cargo from depots (Silent Threat). Custons and whatnot may be carried out by individual planetary governments. Stations may not have been built at the nodes due to the Shivan issue, i.e. their fascination with nodes rather than planets would make a station located at a node much more vulnerable than one located in orbit around an inhabited planet.

Given what we have seen in canon, I suspect that the majority of the GTVA fleet's job in peacetime is likely node guarding (and in wartime I suspect as well - as you say, they're ridiculously important), even if it's just a few fighter wings, but that infrastructure, for whatever reason, is just not practical.

[headdie]

There are other things to consider as well.  jump nodes arn't the only priority for security forces, there are planets, installations (Arcadias though thick skinned are pathetically armed), transit routes, asteroid belts have been shown to be problematic to sensors so you have to patrol them along with dust clouds etc.  

Also we don't know the size of a "fleet" in FS and if a fleet is just a few destroyers double that corvettes and quadruple that cruisers then that is pretty small to cover a star system even with jump drive. especially when you take into account down time for training, maintenance and ceremonial duty.

[Scotty]

@Black Wolf:  Read the OP and consider one point: The only nodes we ever see are in combat zones.  In that light, most infrastructure would already be evacuated and/or destroyed, and all escorts would be deployed for combat duty.

@Headdie:  You're missing the point.  You don't need to patrol those areas.  They only places of interest to anything you really want to defend are the node and the planet.  Intra-system drives work to get you from planet to node and vice-versa.  An installation in the middle of nowhere only costs money and helps no-one any more than an installation in a more financially sane place.  There is very little of interest in a system except the planet and nodes (and possibly resources), so a fleet doesn't really have to expend that much power on force projection within a system.

Also remember that the only bad guys in the system HAVE to come through nodes in a conventional war, and that pirates aren't enough to threaten anything remotely approaching a navy (along with the fact they can't support it and commit financial suicide every time they try).

[headdie]

@Black Wolf:  Read the OP and consider one point: The only nodes we ever see are in combat zones.  In that light, most infrastructure would already be evacuated and/or destroyed, and all escorts would be deployed for combat duty.

hence why in peace time there is more to do with the same resources (possibly fewer if there is mandatory service in times of war) so you cant run heavy defences at the node site.

@Headdie:  You're missing the point.  You don't need to patrol those areas.  They only places of interest to anything you really want to defend are the node and the planet.  Intra-system drives work to get you from planet to node and vice-versa.  An installation in the middle of nowhere only costs money and helps no-one any more than an installation in a more financially sane place.  There is very little of interest in a system except the planet and nodes (and possibly resources), so a fleet doesn't really have to expend that much power on force projection within a system.

So all threats are external?

Also remember that the only bad guys in the system HAVE to come through nodes in a conventional war, and that pirates aren't enough to threaten anything remotely approaching a navy (along with the fact they can't support it and commit financial suicide every time they try).

So pirates and/or criminal gangs always move in from outside?  If you do a little research you will find that most criminal activity in any given area originates in that area, I'm sorry but you need to patrol all these places to minimise the opportunity's for criminal elements to operate.  I get from your posts the sense that you are only thinking about nations at war when there is more than that to consider when thinking about security.

Also as Kings Gambit and Sicilian Defence and the following mission at the Knossos shows in FS during times of war even heavy blockading is not always successful so you need forces able to respond away from the node to mop up these escapees.

[Scotty]

hence why in peace time there is more to do with the same resources (possibly fewer if there is mandatory service in times of war) so you cant run heavy defences at the node site.

Backwards.  In peace-time, you patrol what's cheaper.  That's the node, which offers tangible benefits to every quarter.  That dust cloud 150 million klicks away?  Who gives a ****?

So all threats are external?

All threats worth deploying naval assets of any kind are.  Pirates aren't worth it, and won't get into a shooting match anyway because any damage they take comes out of their pockets.  Besides, if you keep the trade routes clear, namely the node and the planet, which are going to be quite nearly the only reason trade occurs at all, you won't have problems with pirates.  If the problem is a rebellion, the routine patrols are of slightly lesser importance.  If the problem is that your system is contested, then you're going to have a nice picket at the node to keep any enemy ships from slipping deeper behind the lines.

I'm thinking in terms of warring states because anything else is handled by police forces, not the naval presence you'll find at nodes.  And, once again, Pirates aren't that big of a deal because, as stated, they don't fight.  If they do, they lose money, and they're in it for the money.  Privateers fight, and those will be entering the system from outside to prey on merchant shipping.  Be careful not to confuse the two.

[headdie]

hence why in peace time there is more to do with the same resources (possibly fewer if there is mandatory service in times of war) so you cant run heavy defences at the node site.

Backwards.  In peace-time, you patrol what's cheaper.  That's the node, which offers tangible benefits to every quarter.  That dust cloud 150 million klicks away?  Who gives a ****?

When that dust could is being used as a staging point for pirates attacking civilian trade it is and with jump drives you cant know for certain where the bad guys are coming from.

So all threats are external?

All threats worth deploying naval assets of any kind are.  Pirates aren't worth it, and won't get into a shooting match anyway because any damage they take comes out of their pockets.  Besides, if you keep the trade routes clear, namely the node and the planet, which are going to be quite nearly the only reason trade occurs at all, you won't have problems with pirates.  If the problem is a rebellion, the routine patrols are of slightly lesser importance.  If the problem is that your system is contested, then you're going to have a nice picket at the node to keep any enemy ships from slipping deeper behind the lines.

I'm thinking in terms of warring states because anything else is handled by police forces, not the naval presence you'll find at nodes.  And, once again, Pirates aren't that big of a deal because, as stated, they don't fight.  If they do, they lose money, and they're in it for the money.  Privateers fight, and those will be entering the system from outside to prey on merchant shipping.  Be careful not to confuse the two.

Fixed the quote. --Jeff Vader

1. You are assuming that there is a traditional distinction between civilian and military security and that there is no overlap.  It could easily be a case of civilian “police” investigate crime and the military handle day to day security.  Also with Vasudans being involved they probably have a different view to how security operates and will affect how the GTVA sees security.

2. Navies do get involved in Piracy, Somalia comes to mind recently and many coastguards and costal patrols are operated by the nations navy, the UK and USA come immediately to mind

[Scotty]

You're still ignoring the "Why the hell are civvie transports in the boonies anyway?" and the "Why are pirates attacking things that can hurt them?" part of my posts.  Namely, the more important aspects at the moment.

[Spoon]

I'm actually more suprised at how seemingly unguarded the FS2 nodes appear to be...

I'd say some kind of station with a few fighters stationed on it, checking a node on a daily basis seems reasonable to me.

[headdie]

You're still ignoring the "Why the hell are civvie transports in the boonies anyway?"

Surrender, Belisarius! not all civilian shipping is jump capable.

and the "Why are pirates attacking things that can hurt them?" part of my posts.  Namely, the more important aspects at the moment.

Set a AI uly ordered to disable and disarm a freighter or transport and tell me which wins?  aside from the odd Vasudan and the shivans FS civi ships are so poorly armed its laughable, the equivalent of having a couple of the crew armed with AKs against a group of pirates.

Also another aspect is public image.  when you see a tank parked guarding a road junction with 8 watchful squaddies what do you think?  It's a very unnerving sight and the same is possibly true in FS for example:

Where the Orion is the symbol of Terran power, the Arcadia is the shining beacon of stability.
http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Arcadia#FS1_Tech_Room_Description

The distinction between the Arcadia and Orion would suggest to me that there is the same public perception of warships that we have of tanks.

[Scotty]

Surrender, Belisarius! not all civilian shipping is jump capable.

Exactly.  Why the hell is it in the boonies?  If it doesn't have jump drives, it shouldn't be more than a few hundred klicks from an installation or other support.  At the speeds ships travel in FreeSpace, they will get nowhere very, very quickly if they try to go somewhere else.  You'll also note that's while the system is being contested.

Set a AI uly ordered to disable and disarm a freighter or transport and tell me which wins?

Bring out a single escort fighter provided by the local law enforcement or even the corporate owner of the transports or freighters and watch the enormous investment go down the drain.  Pirates will not attack anything capable of hurting them unless they aren't actual pirates, i.e. they're not in it for the money.

[headdie]

Surrender, Belisarius! not all civilian shipping is jump capable.

Exactly.  Why the hell is it in the boonies?  If it doesn't have jump drives, it shouldn't be more than a few hundred klicks from an installation or other support.  At the speeds ships travel in FreeSpace, they will get nowhere very, very quickly if they try to go somewhere else.  You'll also note that's while the system is being contested.

I dont know, people are stupid sometimes.  Also we dont know if there are natural effects that cause havoc for jump drives

Set a AI uly ordered to disable and disarm a freighter or transport and tell me which wins?

Bring out a single escort fighter provided by the local law enforcement or even the corporate owner of the transports or freighters and watch the enormous investment go down the drain.  Pirates will not attack anything capable of hurting them unless they aren't actual pirates, i.e. they're not in it for the money.

we don't know if civilian ownership of combat craft is legal.  And they will attack if they think the prize is worth the risk otherwise they wouldn't do it in the first place.  Also what is the response time of law enforcement, we know from Surrender, Belisarius! that there is a transit time for in system jumps there is also the time taken to detect the incident then dispatch and scramble the responding craft.

Look I'm not saying the Node is unimportant and I agree that it is strategically important as a natural choke point but there is more than the node to consider when deploying security assets through the system, even in a nations at war scenario you haven't even touched the necessity to have protecting forces at major installations and planets ready for when a surprise attack bursts through your heavily blockaded node and the reserves you need to keep back to replace damaged and lost assets

[General Battuta]

I like to think nodes aren't guarded by installations (or giant spheres of metal) because, over weeks or months, they tend to skip around a bit in patterns not totally dictated by orbital mechanics. Orbiting defenses would get left behind without constant adjustment.

[Black Wolf]

@Black Wolf:  Read the OP and consider one point: The only nodes we ever see are in combat zones.  In that light, most infrastructure would already be evacuated and/or destroyed, and all escorts would be deployed for combat duty.

And yet there's no evidence for it ever, as far as I can recall. I'll admit, there's a chance that I've forgotten some canon examples of nodes and installations being next to each other, but it's definitely not the norm. Even in combat zones, it's bloody hard to move an installation, so they're either always destroyed, or they were never there. It seems like the second is more likely, to me. It's not neccesarily logical, but it's closer to the apparent canon.

Logically, nodes are guarded, but it seems not as zealously as they perhaps should be.

[The E]

Yeah, permanent installations only make sense when you can anchorthem near the node, if they are on Lagrange points for example. If the node doesn't stay in such a convenient place, dragging an installation around is more trouble than it's worth. Far easier to just place a Destroyer there, but even then, you're still looking at a lot of fuel consumption.

[Spoon]

Is there any evidence that nodes move around?
Besides, I dont see why a installation can't have a few manouvering thrusters to stay with the node (if for whatever reason it decides to move). Seems a lot more practical than keeping a whole destroyer with it.