[Nuclear1]

Well, if any of you still play the FS2 main campaign, you'll remember Bosch says something about the Shivans being born "from the flux of subspace". That;s probably why they were so determined to reclaim the jump nodes in FS1, because they were retaking their home.

[Sandwich]

Wow, been a while since I've seen this kind of topic. There have already been many discussions on this very subject (Origin of the Shivans by Aken Bosch, NTF Publishing House, 2372), just do a search if you want to see what's already been said in the past.

[TrashMan]

Originally posted by Liberator
Shivans are their ships.

By that I mean that if you examine the Shivans and their ships they are very similar anatomically.

What if some central command keep track of what kind of ship is needed and dispenses an appropriate hormone or radiation to Shivans at a certain level of development.  This hormone or radiation then causes the Shivan to metamorphose into a Mara or a Cain or even a Sathanas, granted it would take some time to metamorphose into a Sathanas but it's possible.

Thats just plain silly(like in Starcraft)....
The greates materials known to men can hardly withstand an atmospheric re-entry and you want to tell me that something biological is allso able to?

ALL biological things have certain properties, one beeing vulnerability to heat/cold... No organism can survive in outer space...it's just too damn hostile.

[Black Wolf]

Originally posted by TrashMan


Thats just plain silly(like in Starcraft)....
The greates materials known to men can hardly withstand an atmospheric re-entry and you want to tell me that something biological is allso able to?

ALL biological things have certain properties, one beeing vulnerability to heat/cold... No organism can survive in outer space...it's just too damn hostile.

Not true. There's a lot of support for a theoretical seeding of simple life and living molecules between planets, including Earth and Mars. Simple life can almost certainly survive in space.

More broadly though, life, be it simple or complex, is incredibly versatile. There are organisms of some kind on earth in almost every possible environment - tyhe incredibly hot, the incredibly cold, even the incredibly dark, areas where there's no light to begin the food chain. And that's just life as we know it. Conceiveably, alien life could be even more robust and adaptable than that on earth. Add to that the fact that Shivans use mechanical parts to augment there natural limitations, have been in space for at least 8000 years longer than humans, and that they're totally uninterested in planets (Have you ever seen a shivan craft atempt reentry (or more accurately... entry)?) and you've got plenty of potential space liviness.

[TrashMan]

Life is extremly resiliant, but you said it yourself - SIMPLE life (spores) can survive in space....
And it is scientificly proven that where there is water, there can be life....AND THERE IS NO WATER IN OUTER SPACE..

[karajorma]

Originally posted by TrashMan
And it is scientificly proven that where there is water, there can be life....AND THERE IS NO WATER IN OUTER SPACE..

I suggest you go out there and tell that to every comet in existance!

While I doubt that the shivan ships are biological I'm not going to say it's impossible to make biological ships because it probably isn't. Whether biological ships are actually a good idea is another matter.

[J3Vr6]

Originally posted by TrashMan
Life is extremly resiliant, but you said it yourself - SIMPLE life (spores) can survive in space....
And it is scientificly proven that where there is water, there can be life....AND THERE IS NO WATER IN OUTER SPACE..

God, this as educational as 3rd grade science.  I'm not going to even begin explaining as I'm sure every one of you knows how to use a search engine or open a book.

[tEAbAG]

Who says 'no water, no life'?  The universe is a big ****in place.  Life as we know it may require water, but 1000 lightyears from here; who knows?

[TrashMan]

Bio-ships?

Crap.....

[IceFire]

Originally posted by TrashMan
Life is extremly resiliant, but you said it yourself - SIMPLE life (spores) can survive in space....
And it is scientificly proven that where there is water, there can be life....AND THERE IS NO WATER IN OUTER SPACE..

It definately has been proven on this planet that water seems to be crucial for live.  However, its nearly impossible to assume that ALL types of life need water to survive.  There is the theoretical assumption that life could take the form of a non-carbon base lifeform (i.e. we are carbon based).  Not sure how that would work.

Then theres the fact that yes there is water in space.  There are asteroids that are made of ice deposits, comets and meteors can have water in them, mars has water in its polar caps, heck they think there's probably some water on the moon (the most arid of places).  Europa is theorized to be comprised largely of water.  Titan has a nubmer of life building blocks, probably including some water....so yeah, I'd say water is around.  Just nothing as spectacular as a ocean, a lake, or a river.

Just think this way: until you've turned over every stone on the beach, do not assume that there aren't any crabs under them.

[Mr. Vega]

Originally posted by IceFire

It definately has been proven on this planet that water seems to be crucial for live.  However, its nearly impossible to assume that ALL types of life need water to survive.  There is the theoretical assumption that life could take the form of a non-carbon base lifeform (i.e. we are carbon based).  Not sure how that would work.

Silicon. It's closer chemically to carbon than any other element. Problem is that silicon bonds are much stronger than carbon bonds, so reactions are much slower.

Which means that silicon lifeforms could only exist close to the core where the older stars lie.

[redsniper]

for the star system I have no idea, but we all know Shivan's live in Dyson Spheres

[Unknown Target]

Shivans most likely would have lived on a barren planet, i.e. no atmosphere, in order to evolve the ability to survive in a vaccum.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Unknown Target
Shivans most likely would have lived on a barren planet, i.e. no atmosphere, in order to evolve the ability to survive in a vaccum.

I very much doubt that is an evolved ability even if it is real (the only proof I remember ever hearing of it is a single joke movie on the Silent Threat CD)

[mikhael]

The shivan homeworld is a low grav arboreal world. They aren't nomads or antibodies, etc. They're just xenophobic, chitonous bioforms.

Trashman, just because life as we know it requires water does not mean water is required for all life. That's like saying:
1. All the Cars in my neighborhood run on gasoline.
2. All the Cars in my Neighborhood do not run without gasoline.
3. Cars cannot run without gasoline.

This is false because some cars and trucks run on diesel.  You may argue that this is not the same thing at all, but I disagree. Your logic is flawed. Life does not necessarily need water unless you are constraining your definition of life artificially to "life as exists on earth today".

[LtNarol]

Originally posted by mikhael
"life as exists on earth today"

revise that, "life as exists on earth today - that we know of"

[mikhael]

Originally posted by LtNarol
revise that, "life as exists on earth today - that we know of"

Point taken.

[TrashMan]

Let me re-phrase that:

Chamses that a Shivan-like lifeform will evolve somewher in our vicinity is astronomical.....

And bi-ships are crap... Even if they were possible (and they aren't) there's no way they could be as fast, resiliant and overall good as a normal one...

[mikhael]

Originally posted by TrashMan

And bi-ships are crap... Even if they were possible (and they aren't) there's no way they could be as fast, resiliant and overall good as a normal one...

On what do you base this "they aren't possible" position? What are you comparing them to? Whas fast, resiliant and overall good "normal" ships are you claiming?

While I agree that the idea of a biological starship or starfighter is unlikely, I am not going to say that there is no way they could outperform inorganic craft. You're comparing speculation to speculation and assuming you know which one comes out on top.

In the defense of biological craft, I'll mention the voidhawks of the Night's Dawn trilogy. The Edenist biocraft rocked.

[LtNarol]

Originally posted by mikhael
In the defense of biological craft, I'll mention the voidhawks of the Night's Dawn trilogy. The Edenist biocraft rocked.

I'd also point out Vorlon and Shadow ships from Babylon 5, or if prefer Star Trek references, those of that one species that was kicking the Borg's rear end (you know, the ones with 3 legs).