Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: GrandAdmiralAbaht on July 19, 2001, 11:02:00 am
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Well speak up...
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Um... the official FS2 campaign? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/redface.gif)
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I mean user created campaigns.
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Um... Sandwich's will be... but thats about All I can think of. Most campaigns go in whichever direction the authors think is most appropriate, and therefor, are not official (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
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Sie ist der hellste Stern von allen, und wird nie vom Himmel fallen.
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Sandwich's goes off into the void too!!! (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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-Director of the staff of Hidden Terror. ("http://www.hiddenterror.f2s.com")
-Fleet Admiral of The Ancients Armada ("http://ancientsarmada.cjb.net/")
The fear always controls our attitude, let us fear no more!
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Originally posted by Raa Tor'h:
Um... Sandwich's will be... but thats about All I can think of...
Actually it will flesh out many things that are only mentioned in the main FS2 campaign (eg. the battle between the GVD Psamtik and the NYD Cyrene), and there shouldn't be any contradictions to cannon events from the main campaign, but that doesn't make it cannon. The only true cannon is as stated above: the main campaign, because it was creatd by the makers of the game/universe (the FreeSpace universe, that is... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)).
Originally posted by RKIF-DragonClaw:
Sandwich's goes off into the void too!!! (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
It's all a matter of your interpretation of events, as well as your opinion of conspiracy theories and all... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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Originally posted by sandwich:
It's all a matter of your interpretation of events, as well as your opinion of conspiracy theories and all... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
Well (http://www.fozzspace.f2s.com/bb/noncgi/smilies/bootyshake.gif) @ you too! ("http://www.fozzspace.f2s.com/bb/")
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Sie ist der hellste Stern von allen, und wird nie vom Himmel fallen.
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Originally posted by Slanker:
Um... the official FS2 campaign? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/redface.gif)
The FS2 campaign is canon, as is the FS1 main campaign and Silent Threat. However some parts of FS1 (such as the nodemap) are not canon. Any contradictions between FS1 and FS2, go with FS2.
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Because Volition doesn't actually endorse user campaigns you can't actually say that a campaign is 'cannon', you know. For example, while for Half Life you can't say that any one of them is cannon, except for Op4 & Blue Shift, because you bought them. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif) Well, not quite but I hope you get the point.
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[Looks at his XWAU Orders... Keep a high profile.]
X-Wing Alliance Upgrade Project ("http://www.xwaupgrade.com") Public Relations. No, XWA won't such anymore!
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Isn't as simple as:
- Volition-made is canon
- Not Volition-made is not canon
...? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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you could say that Warzone, Derelict and soon BWO will be unofficial canon, but then again you could only take Machina Terra as canon, or Warzone Twilight and The Babel-effect,...
There are lot of possible combinations to make your unofficial canon.
BTW, some descripancies between FS and FS2 (like the 3 jumpnode leading from Earth) could be explained by using elements of the storyline.
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I looked up 'canon':
From Dictionary.com:
canon n 1: a rule or especially body of rules or principles generally established as valid and fundamental in a field or art or philosophy: "the neoclassical canon"; "canons of polite society"
So it seems like things have to be valid, and established. In the strictest sense that means that no user made campaigns can be included, although so far in campaigns like Warzone and Derelict, many events have been incorporated into the community's perception of the FS universe.
However, when we look at examples such as BWO and MT, we can see why user made campaigns cannot be canon - they can conflict. The BWO and MT campaigns are both set around the Sol system, but the similarities end there - and obviously, one campaign cannot be chosen over another as canon by the community (alternatively, Volition can make this call and designate a campaign canon).
So, is that it? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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well, at least, even if it's definitively a fun campaign, derelict is not "cannon" for me:
a jumping jump gate (ahem) and ships that heals in a nebulae...
Yeah, a user-made campaign can be designated as canon only by the volition people themselves. And they have their own ideas, so that won't happen (hopefully I would say, otherwise that means death for a lot of interesting or funny ideas).
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Originally posted by venom2506:
a jumping jump gate (ahem) and ships that heals in a nebulae....
Oh **** ! Didn't realise that had been used
(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
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Originally posted by venom2506:
... the volition people themselves. And they have their own ideas...
What do you think would happen if one of our ideas (any idea from any user-made campaign) actually matched Volition's idea? Only (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/v.gif) knows what happened back at Sol, but what if one of these campaigns returning to Sol gets it right. Would (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/v.gif) congratulate the campaign creators for reading their minds? Or would they hate the fans for using their idea when they couldn't? Or do they just not even pay attention to the modding community?
Joe.
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Originally posted by Setekh:
I looked up 'canon':
So it seems like things have to be valid, and established. In the strictest sense that means that no user made campaigns can be included, although so far in campaigns like Warzone and Derelict, many events have been incorporated into the community's perception of the FS universe.
However, when we look at examples such as BWO and MT, we can see why user made campaigns cannot be canon - they can conflict. The BWO and MT campaigns are both set around the Sol system, but the similarities end there - and obviously, one campaign cannot be chosen over another as canon by the community (alternatively, Volition can make this call and designate a campaign canon).
So, is that it? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
Canon is set, it is the highest form or 'realism' possible. All of FS2 is canon. 'Official' is next, this being, obviously enough, officially ok'ed, but in a conflict, canon sources win. The FS1 nodemap would be an example of official, as it is replaced by the FS2 map.
Everything the community makes falls under the heading of fanfic, which basically means it has no official standing whatsoever, and has no effect on the story. It is an interpretation/extrapolation of the canon events, nothing more.
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Actually on the subject of Warzone, Derelict, Twilight, BWO, and tBE, I've made an effort with Twilight and tBE not to contradict what is within Warzone or Derelict.
Twilight happens prior to Derelict, and tBE is afterwards, though I do not touch on events with the Nylarathotep save for minor dialogue within tBE.
There is a lot of BWO foreshadowing in tBE in the early part of the campaign, however the later phases branch completely off from the "fan made canon."
Many choices of the Derelict designers I am currently working into tBE, albeit different then they intended as I hope to make answers which please as many as possible as well as stay true to FS canon and official sources.
tBE will more than likely be released long after BWO, and proper rewrites will be done incase of contradictions. (overall I have avoided systems touched by the BWO team save for Vasuda Prime where we have common understanding of events)
Overall I can gladly boast that tBE will have the most extensive and immersive plot of an FS2 campaign yet released, and there will be quite massive fleet engagements as well as unique and subtle situations which will require the utmost knowledge of your capacities.
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Ace
Staff member FreeSpace Watch
http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/ ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/")
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Something I just thought of... Derelict *does* seem to be accepted heavily as cannon, as I think it is in Terran Imperium or tBE. Just a thought.
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[Looks at his XWAU Orders... Keep a high profile.]
X-Wing Alliance Upgrade Project ("http://www.xwaupgrade.com") Public Relations. No, XWA won't such anymore!
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Okay, something need to be defined here: FS1, Silent Threat and FS2 are canon. Period. No "there's also...", no "such-and-such is unoficially canon...", zilch. End of list. (Yes, I know all that's been said before...) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
Now, a good portion of the FS1/2 community that produces user-made missions and campaigns tend to base their stories on Warzone/Derelict/Twilight/tBE (coming "soon")/BWO (also coming "soon"). While this adds absolutely nothing to the canon "factor" of those campaigns, they do have logical continuations of the FS2 story and many side stories that can be developed and fleshed out. But they are still neither canon nor official! Even if they hit upon the "trillion-monkeys-typing-on-a-trillion-typewriters-for-a-trillion-years" combination and ended up being exactly what (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/v.gif) would have come up with, byte for byte, they would not be canon unless (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/v.gif) said so.
Think of it this way: you write a fiction book. The book leaves the reader at a virtual cliffhanger, but you decide not to write a sequel. Then, a few years later, your biggest fan writes a continuation to your book on his own. It fits with what is put down as fact in your book, and it seems like a perfectly logical continuation to your book - it may even be exactly how you were thinking of continuing it. But it ain't canon simply because you, as the originator of the idea, did not write it nor endorse it.
Anyways, all that is probably completely unneeded, but my fingers just wouldn't stop... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
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"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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On the subject of Twilight and tBe.
Doesn't Twilight's events happen at the same time as Warzone? The war beyond Regulus is mentioned a few times in the command breifings. And isin't Warzone one year after Derelict?
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Here's how it goes:
FS2 is GTVA canon.
Derelict and Warzone are fronteir canon by default, because no other campaign deals with those locations, and they have no real arguments with any othe campaign. (ED: Scratch that, there are new campaigns that do, but these two are still definitely canon because they came first)
Left Behind and possibly BWO will be Earth canon, because LB spends almost all of its time and a projected 30 mods on Earth... but Earth is a sketchy one, we really need to make one thats Earth canon.
Shivans and everything else... open season, have fun guys.
Although, if you wanna have something that argues with the "canon" campaigns, all's fair in bad fiction, go ahead and do it...
[This message has been edited by Stryke 9 (edited 07-22-2001).]
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No. Derelict, Warzone, MT, BWO, EVERY LAST CAMPAIGN MADE is and will be nothing more more than fanfic, unless (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/v.gif) comes and says it's canon. Period.
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Well, yeah.
But since we ain't [V], [V] ain't talkin' to us, and we wanna have canon, we make canon! They haven't said much about whether any of our stuff is "true", and I really don't see what makes them the authorities on places and things they didn't make up. I mean, yeah, it's all more or less based on what they did, but until we start making money off of it, or the whole thing magically becomes reality, that's like saying, for example, that Isaac Asimov owns every story ever written using his ideas of robots, or that the first guy to write a story based in Africa gets to say what can and can't be said about Africa. There's a lot of things here to play with, and since generally [V] doesn't give a rat's *** what we do, we're gonna have to be the ones to say what's what.
Did that make any sense at all? I kinda ranted, I know.
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You cannot simply call something canon. You can have something accepted by the community, but it still has no more validity than anyone else's.
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That's like saying Sandwich's Shivan BBQ mission is cannon... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)
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LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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-Director of the staff of Hidden Terror. ("http://www.hiddenterror.f2s.com")
-Fleet Admiral of The Ancients Armada ("http://ancientsarmada.cjb.net/")
The fear always controls our attitude, let us fear no more!
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Originally posted by Raa Tor'h:
That's like saying Sandwich's Shivan BBQ mission is cannon... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)
Oh, yeah - I did show you that one, didn't I? Hehehe - FRED2 is fun... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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The shivan BBQ!
http://michael.randelman.com/fs2/files/impaled.zip ("http://michael.randelman.com/fs2/files/impaled.zip")
muahah!
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-Director of the staff of Hidden Terror. ("http://www.hiddenterror.f2s.com")
-Fleet Admiral of The Ancients Armada ("http://ancientsarmada.cjb.net/")
The fear always controls our attitude, let us fear no more!
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Anyway, for exemple, will you imose me Derelict as canon, since I don't agree with many points in the storyline? No way. If V comes and tell me it is now an official extension to FS2, ok, mea culpa. Since then, for me, Derelict is a USER made campaign. Period. And it's the same for every campaign out there.
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Originally posted by venom2506:
mea culpa
I knew that was french! Babelfish wouldn't translate it as french, so I assumed it was Latin... I love saying that... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by Raa Tor'h:
I knew that was french! Babelfish wouldn't translate it as french, so I assumed it was Latin... I love saying that... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
It's latin lol
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Doesn't Twilight's events happen at the same time as Warzone? The war beyond Regulus is mentioned a few times in the command breifings. And isin't Warzone one year after Derelict?
Derelict and Warzone both occur five years after FreeSpace 2. (2372)
Also, on the huge arguement on canon and non-canon:
So far only what Volition has published through Interplay as the FreeSpace games and the FS reference bible are canon.
Pieces of the FS bible which contradict FS due to it's being an earlier outline of the plot is as the plot is in FS.
Much like any contradictions between FS and FS2 mean that the FS2 data is the canon and "accurate."
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Ace
Staff member FreeSpace Watch
http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/ ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/")
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Originally posted by Stryke 9:
Here's how it goes:
Well, no...
Originally posted by Stryke 9:
Well, yeah.
No.
Is that - clear enough for you?
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Originally posted by venom2506:
It's latin lol
Damnit! Always happens! I was right the first time!
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This is all about people's OPINIONS. This is:
1. not real life
2. made up by a bunch of guys most likely not any older than us, who had no interest in tying it to reality
Comprende? What we have to say about it is every bit as valid as what they say, unless we try to contradict their plotlines(and that 'cause they thought of it first). There is no REAL "this is what happened" and [V] isn't making one any time soon. Whan they do, I'll eat my words, but until then, we're on our own. Yes, the LB thing was kinda a halfhearted pimp, but the rest is accepted, and I think I have to repeat, this is:
1. not real life
2. made up by a bunch of guys most likely not any older than us, who had no interest in tying it to reality
Which means it's not really worth arguing about anyway, but what the hell, an argument is an argument, and I'll be damned if I lose one!
[This message has been edited by Stryke 9 (edited 07-23-2001).]
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And Setekh: I started the whole you're-wrong-i'm-right thing for this forum (as far as I can tell, I haven't checked the ancient history topics), and you're on my turf. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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You don't understand. There is no opinion about what is canon, either it is or it isn't. Anything put out by (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/v.gif) is canon, except for a few things in FS that are superseded by FS2, everything else is nothing more than fanfic, with no official standing whatsoever. You cannot argue with canon, it's set in stone. Only (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/v.gif) can change and say what is canon, because it is there universe.
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Yeah. Like I said, if someone here makes a campaign and [V] actually says they're wrong, then they're wrong. But on those things [V] has said nothing about, some fanfic takes precedence- you can't have a vacuum of info just 'cause [V] hasn't mentioned it yet. Some things are still taken as "correct" even though [V] (I'm getting sick of typing that logo) hasn't come out and acknowledged it as right or wrong.
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Left Behind:
www.wpierce.com/wlp/FS2/lbmain.html
You call that annoying?
I'll show you annoying!
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Originally posted by Shrike:
You don't understand. There is no opinion about what is canon, either it is or it isn't. Anything put out by (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/v.gif) is canon, except for a few things in FS that are superseded by FS2, everything else is nothing more than fanfic, with no official standing whatsoever. You cannot argue with canon, it's set in stone. Only (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/v.gif) can change and say what is canon, because it is there universe.
Right on, ol' chap!
Or look at it this way: How old was George Lucas when he made up the Star Wars universe? It doesn't matter, does it? Does anyone even think about contradicting what he's already set? No. And all those expansion books that have been written (Timothy Zahn is AWESOME! (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)), as far as Lucas is concerned, put him under absolutely no obligation whatsoever to follow their stories in the 7-8-9 movies. Why? Because HE DID NOT WRITE THEM.
And that, ladies and germs, is the dfference between "official" and "canon". The books are official expansions to the movies. However, if Lucas has Leia marry Lando in one of the sequel movies, that will be canon. It may contradict the official "facts" set out in the books, but Lucas has priority. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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*sigh* Fanfic is just that, fanfic. Just because (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/v.gif) hasn't said what's in how many planets there are in Polaris, doesn't mean that we all have to agree with the first person to come up with a campaign set in Polaris. If it's from (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/v.gif) it's canon and cannot be disputed with, eventwise. Yes, people can agree to have the same given background, etc for their campaigns and stories, but that doesn't make it official, and certainly doesn't mean people have to follow it. The only way people can fault you on this is if you against (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/v.gif) itself.
Edit: To sum up. Nothing takes precedence over canon, in the FS2 universe there's only canon and fanfic/speculation. Nothing else.
And on the topic of SW, as far as I know, the events in the novels are considered canon. This contrasts with ST, where only the movies/eps and a couple selected books are considered canon.
[This message has been edited by Shrike (edited 07-23-2001).]
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That's where you're wrong. While there isn't CURRENTLY an official canon fo fanfic, there should be a standard for all fiction- at least a basic framework for all backgrounds, to allow some variability. The main reason fo this, as I explained at length at thre VBB, is that there is a very short supply of modders, etc., who seem to produce anything they want to let others use in their creations, compared to the number of campaigns out there. For the rest, look at the VBB copy, because I don't wanna type it out in full 500-page tedium.
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Left Behind:
www.wpierce.com/wlp/FS2/lbmain.html
You call that annoying?
I'll show you annoying!
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How many times do I have to explain this? Fanfic IS NOT canon! Period! If the creators accept it, it's not longer fanfic, it's canon (or official, depending). There should be no 'official' guide to campaigns, as in what should be where (using the WZ/D nodemap only, as an example) as that will simply force unnecesary restrictions upon campaign designers. If you want to use background from someone else, fine. But don't presume people will want to have it forced upon them.
[This message has been edited by Shrike (edited 07-25-2001).]
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Originally posted by Stryke 9:
You call that annoying?
I'll show you annoying!
You're starting to live up to that on this topic. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by Stryke 9:
and you're on my turf. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
*slaps self in face*
Someone hit him with the intelligence stick..! (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)
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Hm... All I can find is the ugly stick... will that do?
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Shrike: Unnecessary restrictions? I don't see how saying everything that happened in Derelict, say, being taken as "true" would put unnecessary restrictions on someone making a campaign centered on Sol or Deneb. The thing is, EVERY fanfic campaign I've seen so far has a little disclaimer somewhere- "you can't use our mods or pictures or the same vowels we had in our campaign... I think that's just stupid and this would be a way of ending that, since most campaigns would take those same mods and pics, etc. from the same source- no because they had to, but because it's easier to download a set of 50 open mods to pick through than to actually get a team of modders to make them for you. People could disagree and ignore fanfic "canon" (call it what you like- we'll refer to it as "goatage" from now on, since the word "canon" seems to give you spasms) all they like, but there would still be a central goatage background (and all that goes with it) open for all that wanted to make a few shortcuts that wouldn't really impede creativity- any more than the "canon" existence of the GTVA makes campaigns less original. And what would be better than basing fanfic goatage on the best of our campaigns?
I'm not even gonna comment on the other posts. I like being noisy, thank you very much.
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Keep them arguments comin'. This is almost as fun as debating FS3 on the Volition board!
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But who is going to be in charge of deciding what counts as 'community official'? I can tell you, you'll run into stiff opposition. No-one is going to like hearing 'you can't have first contact after Capella with Shivans in 2368, because it happened in 2371 in Warzone.' For example, only one campaign on HLP (AFAIK) uses the Warzone map, that being TM. MT and R2NT would make no sense if they were forced to use the warzone map, and the events of Derelict. But seeing as it's no more official than any other fan project, we could toss the map, the events, everything, out the window without worrying. As for the mods themselves, try asking the people who made them if they can be used later. In my experiences, once the campaigns are out, they're more than willing to allow their models and such used. Obviously, proper credit has to be given.
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Like I said, no forcing involved. We make a setup, mods, nodemap and all, and people use what they want- it's really no different than right now. I could make a campaign where the GTVA naver existed, it's the Royal Domain of Fruit and Mixed nuts instead, and what would happen to me? It might not be a good campaign, that's all. Right now, there is no real extended resource pool like this, but one is sorely needed.
As I recall, Warzone only dealt with one "known" system and a lot branching off of that, and there is really no limitation on the mysterious unknown system levels in GTVA space, so that really wouldn't matter... If it becomes a big issue, scratch the Warzone plot as part of the goatage history, there are plenty of other campaigns...
Besides, it wouldn't be just me doing it. It would be a joint effort by the community, for community consumption. I don't have the time or the skills needed to do everything, anyway.
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Incredible on how a simple question started a debate as big as the American elections in 2000. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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Well, seeing as the simple answer of 'stuff put out by (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/v.gif)' didn't work....
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Don't get me started on government. I've spent years advocating it's overthrow, and I've gone for hours straight giving my opinions on that (where do you think I learned to argue?)
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I thought you just had a very thick skull... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
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So you better watch it before I headbutt you. Unless anyone has more original material to add, I think this topic is dead.
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Left Behind:
www.wpierce.com/wlp/FS2/lbmain.html ("http://www.wpierce.com/wlp/FS2/lbmain.html")
I'm right.
You're wrong.
Any questions?(Shut up back there!)
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Originally posted by Shrike:
For example, only one campaign on HLP (AFAIK) uses the Warzone map, that being TM.
Op.:UG uses the Warzone map, mainly because I'm too lazy to make up my own, and I didn't want to use most of the basic systems because according to my campaign they're under Shivan control, and the GTR is restricted to guerilla attacks in the frontier systems.
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another argument? easy: I'm doing a comapaign, that will be in contradiction with warzone and derelict. Let say my campaign is cool and everybody loves it as much as the two others. Then... Tell me which one should be considered as canon?
Easy: none.
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Whichever has the better plot- you'd lose on popular opinion either way actually, people have a great respect for the old and moldy, even more than the new and improved. Hence, this whole argument. Plus, any campaign that was as good as Derelicyt would be accused of being a Derelict clone, since what's good about it is that the creators made the game in the only way it could be properly done- you'd have to imitate at least the basics.
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That's where your wrong. It's only a Derelict clone if you have a shivan ship, mysteriously lost, that heralds another invasion. Derelict was groundbreaking in that it was a good FS2 campaign, but the overall story was by no means special.
Face it, there is going to be no community accepted standard for campaign storylines and backgrounds.
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Why not? The whole GTVA thing is universally accepted, it seems that the distinction between stuff we make up and stuff (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/v.gif) made up is small... That's why this whole topic was started, anyway, most people aren't as much against the idea as you... And it would do a lot of good to at least have it as an option.
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Originally posted by Stryke 9:
Why not?
Well, just look around you and find someone who actually agrees with you... That's the best proof that nobody wants to use user made campaigns as basis for all the other campaigns.
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Would I be bothering with this topic if I wasn't trying to demostrate how this would be a good idea? I think you missed the point, I don't just argue for the hell of it... Hopefully, if nobody comes up with a good reason why this idea is not good, people won't just be stubborn, but decide to help do something about it...
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(http://www.duhspot.com/users/smiley/s/cwm/3dlil/nonono2.gif)
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I was wondering when you'd lower the conversation again, Setekh. Read the sig, I made it just for you.
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Now that that's cleared up, any actual input?
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Originally posted by Stryke 9:
Hopefully, if nobody comes up with a good reason why this idea is not good, people won't just be stubborn, but decide to help do something about it...
Alright, let's see:
- No good way of choosing the best campaign for background.
- Creativity will be stifled.
- A lot of campaigns will suddenly become 'wrong' simply because some fans decide their interpretation is best.
- A lot of people will not go along with it anyway.
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Originally posted by Stryke 9:
and you're on my turf. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
Although I'm not full on entering the topic because I don't care to show my opinion at this time, I was reading through the whole thing and felt compelled to point this out.
Setekh = HLP Staff
This forum = HLP 0wned.
Therefore this forum = 0wned by Setekh.
Go figure (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
Setekh's note: Why didn't I think of that? Wait, I did... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/rolleyes.gif)
Thunder's Additional note: Yeah but I thought he might needed repeated... just in case.
Setekh's Additional Additional note: guess he needs to be told twice, huh?
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[This message has been edited by Setekh (edited 07-28-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Thunder (edited 07-28-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Setekh (edited 07-28-2001).]
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The first one... true. But it'd have to be assembled from multiple campaigns anyway (take Derelict again, the one everyone takes for granted would have to be included- does it really CHANGE all that much on a larger scale? OK- GTVA messed up after war- find a campaign that doesn't include this. Occasional small Shivan invasions- same. See? there are some things that are generally included in a background anyway. Don't like a bit of history/ whatever? Ignore it. It's just a source of ideas anyway- there's no punishment or mass indignation if something isn't mentioned. And besides, if you haven't noticed, it's a big galaxy- plenty of room for different things, and news could not travel fast. But you're more or less right on the background bit. How about MODs, images, etc.? There's more than stories that run a campaign, and since like many have observed, everybody, his cousin, and his cousin's dog have ideas for campaigns they want made, a source plot would become kinda an issue... Making campaigns is the hard bit.
Second one... Think I answered it satisfactorily.
Third- So? Screw what's right and what's wrong. Lots of campaigns I've seen even contradict the Volition version in minor ways, and if they don't wanna be "correct" then nobody's gonna make them, this is just something to aid the process.
Fourth- A lot of people wouldn't go along with it if it was the best idea in the world. People are stubborn- people dealing with utter fiction doubly so. Let them not go along. If so many don't want it that it never happens- hell, I can manage a campaign (more or less) on my own, this is for their sake.
Thunder: Wow. Amazing ability to drag up a dead bad joke (wait a minute- did you even read the original post?!!), and perceive it as the main argument. Consider yourself sufficiently mocked, I don't wanna bother- this is just an argument, and flamewars get boring.
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So does 0wning people like you (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/rolleyes.gif)
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Sheesh, guys!
In response to the mentioned Star Wars books - they are official. They are endorsed by LucasArts, etc etc. However, George Lucas has specifically stated that he places himself under no obligation whatsoever to make the 7,8 and 9 movies follow the books. If you want I could try and hunt up the reference; I think it's somewhere on the official Star Wars site.
Now, on to the main subject. I think that, intentionally or not, many mission/campaign writers use the Warzone/Derelict campaigns as a basis and background for their stories. However, many do not. Personally, I've made a mission that's already "compatible" with BWO, even though I have no more information on the BWO storyline than any of you. So.
A) You cannot define canon. Period.
B) You can propose that new campaigns be based on the same general premises, as set out in {insert_popular_campaign_name_here}. I agree that having multiple campaigns from many different people fitting together would be neat. And I am positive that everyone else does as well. As a matter of fact, it's a good idea - if you can find the people who are willing to go along with it.
Say you have 9 different people, each heading up the writing and development of a new campaign, that are willing to make sure that their campaigns all work together and have common history references. That would (and I hope, will) be awesome. But despite of widespread acception by even the whole community, this common base cannot and will not be canon. It will be a common base. Simply because canon, by definition, is defined solely by the originators of the idea/product/whatever. Whatever they say/said is canon. If they (Volition, in our case) decide to knight a certain campaign "canon" they can. We, however, cannot.
Now, if after all this you still claim that Warzone/Derelict are canon by default, then you're either thick-headed, dumb, or completely misunderstanding what everyone has been saying.
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"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
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[This message has been edited by sandwich (edited 07-28-2001).]
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I like this guy. Good going- I can't really refute that... However, I still wanna set up a resource pool that's open to everyone... And it's not canon, it's goatage!
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Originally posted by Stryke 9:
I like this guy. Good going- I can't really refute that... However, I still wanna set up a resource pool that's open to everyone... And it's not canon, it's goatage!
It's hard to refute anything of what sandwich says, in fact (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
I hate this guy, he's always right (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)
[This message has been edited by venom2506 (edited 07-28-2001).]
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We'll see...
Next time, he's mine! (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)
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Originally posted by Ace:
Overall I can gladly boast that tBE will have the most extensive and immersive plot of an FS2 campaign yet released, and there
I'm glad you have a smidgen of modesty.
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ICQ: 6228797
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New question. Since you say that some user made campaigns build off others, can you give me an example of a series of campaigns that are part of the same storyline?
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Originally posted by Stryke 9:
I like this guy. Good going- I can't really refute that... However, I still wanna set up a resource pool that's open to everyone... And it's not canon, it's goatage!
Goatage, shmo-tage... call it something simple and accurate, like: "Partially accepted basis for storyline building of fan-made campaigns" or something. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)
Originally posted by venom2506:
It's hard to refute anything of what sandwich says, in fact (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
I hate this guy, he's always right (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)
Awww... me = blushing! (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/redface.gif)
Originally posted by Stryke 9:
We'll see...
Next time, he's mine! (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)
Give it your best shot, buster! (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
Originally posted by GrandAdmiralAbaht:
New question. Since you say that some user made campaigns build off others, can you give me an example of a series of campaigns that are part of the same storyline?
Yeah, the big 3: Warzone, Derelict and the soon-coming BlackWater Ops (BWO). Course, those 3 are basically made by the same team.
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"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)