Author Topic: Freespace and Speed: How Fast is Slow?  (Read 6685 times)

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Offline Eishtmo

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Freespace and Speed: How Fast is Slow?
Over on the Spacebattles Vs. forums, the most vile pit of insanity I've ever found, Freespace has recently been a contestent in several battles.  Quickly, its been declared the loser because its too damn slow.  And it got me to thinking:  Why?

Why are Freespace ships so damn slow?  And then, another question came to mind:  Are they really that slow?  I'll get to that one in a minute.

So why are they so slow?  I can think of only three reasons:  (lots of colons today)

1)  Volition balancing.  When they were making the game, they tried to come up with a speed that would balance the game.  Reasonable, of course, it makes the game loads of fun.  I'm more than willing to accept that explination.

2)  Volition made a mistake (!).  I know, blasphemy.  But maybe, just maybe, they didn't grasp the ideas of the metric system, and thought that 80 m/s is actually quite fast (in fact, its about 200 miles an hour, slow for a fighter).  This is understandable, sense Volition is made of Americans, who generally can't stand any damned European system screwing up their speed limit signs.

3)  In game reasoning.  Meaning that for reasons that are hard to understand, the GTA, if it was real, made the ships slower on purpose.  The only reason I can see this making sense is that as the 14 Year War draged on, more and more pilots were dying, and less experianced pilots were put in the seats.  So, to prevent these pilots from blacking out and crashing into the side of an Orion, they lowered the speeds of the fighters.  This also allowed special breaking thrusters to work easier.  On some level it makes sense.  What doesn't make sense, is why the Shivans were moving at such speeds.  Of course, that's balancing.

Well, those are the only three I could think of, I'd be happy to entertain more.  But this line of thought lead me to the interesting idea:  (more colons) Freespace ships may not be that slow.

Those speed numbers have never been given a unit in game, they're just 0-100+.  No m/s, km/s, miles/hour ect.  Now, we've basically assumed that it is m/s, and I suppose it works, but is it true?  Well, it isn't the easiest thing to test, of course.  We'd have to set up a mission to act as a time trial or something to test it, and I'm not sure how to do it.  Of course, maybe I'm wrong and they really are going m/s.  If so, no biggy, we'll just head back up to the original three reasons why.  But if they are going at a different speed, it would be nice to know for the future (and so I can smeer those assholes on SB, so I'm insane too, bite me).

Any thoughts?

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Offline Jabu

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Freespace and Speed: How Fast is Slow?
Well, the antidote is to use the cutscene speeds, as many over there have done  

They are m/s, I'm pretty sure of it. Go fly alongside an Orion and see for yourself  

 

Offline ^Graff

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Freespace and Speed: How Fast is Slow?
FS ships were designed more for manuverability instead of speed.  Look at Starlancer.  The ships move at extremely high speeds, but because they handle like turtles,  a hit against one is possible at more than a hundred Klicks.  In Freespace, when you are in a dogfight, you are really in a twisting, turning furball.  

If you really want a comeback argument, use the wingman AI as a point.  While FS fans hate the wingman AI, it is still superior to many games.  Tachyon, SL and WC wingmen can't make kills, and I-War 1 wingmen can't stay alive more than a minute against even odds.  FS wingmen do die, but that is because your three wingmen just went up against three times their number in shivans, and they took a few of them down with them.

Also, FS ships are durable as all hell, and, of course, beams.
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Originally posted by Anduril:
Dang, Graff, you good.  :)

 

Offline aldo_14

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Freespace and Speed: How Fast is Slow?
 
Quote
Originally posted by ^Graff:
FS ships were designed more for manuverability instead of speed.  Look at Starlancer.  The ships move at extremely high speeds, but because they handle like turtles,  a hit against one is possible at more than a hundred Klicks.  In Freespace, when you are in a dogfight, you are really in a twisting, turning furball.  

If you really want a comeback argument, use the wingman AI as a point.  While FS fans hate the wingman AI, it is still superior to many games.  Tachyon, SL and WC wingmen can't make kills, and I-War 1 wingmen can't stay alive more than a minute against even odds.  FS wingmen do die, but that is because your three wingmen just went up against three times their number in shivans, and they took a few of them down with them.

Also, FS ships are durable as all hell, and, of course, beams.


I agree with this... there's no need for speed in FS, as subspace jumps are used for long distances. Also, bearing in ming the physics engine, I like to use the Harrier Vs F-15 anlogy;

A Harrier can easily out-maneuver and take down an F-15, because it is VTOl, and has a very small turning circle compared to the faster F-15.  Of course, it isn't as good at running away, or making strike raids.

Plus, having a low top speed makes the big ships look even bigger  

 

Offline Nico

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Freespace and Speed: How Fast is Slow?
 
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14:

I agree with this... there's no need for speed in FS, as subspace jumps are used for long distances. Also, bearing in ming the physics engine, I like to use the Harrier Vs F-15 anlogy;

A Harrier can easily out-maneuver and take down an F-15, because it is VTOl, and has a very small turning circle compared to the faster F-15.  Of course, it isn't as good at running away, or making strike raids.

Plus, having a low top speed makes the big ships look even bigger  

Nah, I don't agree. When ships go faster, it's more fun. Try sushi's mod...
For the f15 analogy, it's ridiculous. Modern fighters just don't dogfight, and a f15 will shoot a harrier the same way a harrier will shoot a f15: long range.
SCREW CANON!

 

Offline ^Graff

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Freespace and Speed: How Fast is Slow?
If modern fighters weren't designed for dogfighting, then why did the USAF choose the  F-22 over the F-23?  The ONLY advantage that the F-22 had over the F-23 design was its dogfighting ability.  And I DO mean ONLY.
Quote
Originally posted by Anduril:
Dang, Graff, you good.  :)

 
Freespace and Speed: How Fast is Slow?
just speed up the game wit hthe speed function running at x16 game speed and well see how long they live  
Bah who needeed the Colossus when all we needed was 30 Fenrises

 

Offline Nico

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Freespace and Speed: How Fast is Slow?
 
Quote
Originally posted by ^Graff:
If modern fighters weren't designed for dogfighting, then why did the USAF choose the  F-22 over the F-23?  The ONLY advantage that the F-22 had over the F-23 design was its dogfighting ability.  And I DO mean ONLY.


No, I think the F22 could reach supersonic speed w/o afterburners, and not the YF23. the 23 was more agile than the 22.
SCREW CANON!

 

Offline Joey_21

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Freespace and Speed: How Fast is Slow?
 
Quote
Originally posted by Eishtmo:
Those speed numbers have never been given a unit in game, they're just 0-100+.  No m/s, km/s, miles/hour ect.  Now, we've basically assumed that it is m/s, and I suppose it works, but is it true?

Actually, sometime near the beginning (or beginning mission) of the FS2 campaign, the squad leader talks about "clicks" being kilometers. Thus, FS2 measures ship distances in m/s.

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Offline ^Graff

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Freespace and Speed: How Fast is Slow?
Both air dominance fighters were designed for supercruise, as it was one of the requirements set by the Air Force.  The Northrop/McDonnell-Douglas team designed their fighter with an emphasis on stealth, with manuverability second, and the Lockheed-Martin/Boeing team designed it with manuverability first, stealth second.  That's why the F-22 has the thrust vectoring engines and the F-23 doesn't.  The F-23 was very manuverable, but not as good as the F-22.

Edit: One in four air-to-air kills happen in dogfights, so they do still happen.

[This message has been edited by ^Graff (edited 08-27-2001).]
Quote
Originally posted by Anduril:
Dang, Graff, you good.  :)

 

Offline Slasher

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Freespace and Speed: How Fast is Slow?
 
Quote
Originally posted by Joey_21:
Actually, sometime near the beginning (or beginning mission) of the FS2 campaign, the squad leader talks about "clicks" being kilometers. Thus, FS2 measures ship distances in m/s.


Yes, and in the mission where you must defend the Bastion on her last mission (Clash of the Titans II; second to last mission of the entire campaign) one of the pilots says the Trebuchets have a max range of five kilometers.  So it's logical and resonable to say that speed in the FreeSpace universe is measured in meters per second.  Just lock up a bandit with the Trebuchet missile at max range and see what I mean.

Sorry, that was supposed to be "mission", not "meson".  Dunno where that came from.  



[This message has been edited by Slasher (edited 08-27-2001).]

 

Offline Thorn

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Freespace and Speed: How Fast is Slow?
Funny, I always felt that FS was fast, but thats probably because I was just playing Mechwarrior 4 in an assault mech.
Then I would play Aliens vs. Predator and everything felt slow after that...

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Offline Setekh

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Freespace and Speed: How Fast is Slow?
Maybe slower engines are significantly cheaper (A-1 for mass production!).  
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Offline Thorn

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Freespace and Speed: How Fast is Slow?
they mustve spent a lot of money on AvP then. Good God that game is frantic.
*SCREECH* *SLASH* *SNAP* *GAHHHHHH* *BOOM* *SCREEEEEECH* *AHHHHHHHHH* *blackness* *silence*

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Offline Fineus

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Freespace and Speed: How Fast is Slow?
It's not frantic the way I play it....

Marine, standing in the lightest room in the level... in the corner.... firing wildly at anything that so much as flickers...  

 

Offline Thorn

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Freespace and Speed: How Fast is Slow?
I usually play as the Alien, and hes fast, very fast, almost to the point where its too fast to react to anything..
which is why I'm usually creeping along the ceiling, waiting for something to walk under so I can bite its head off...

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Offline Shrike

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Freespace and Speed: How Fast is Slow?
IW2 combat is awesome...... I proved the superiority of newtonian physics against a station that was trying to shoot the crap outta me.  Plus, zipping along with combat speeds at a REAL 1+ km/s (unlike the alleged speeds in WC/SL) is *******  great!
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Offline Slasher

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Freespace and Speed: How Fast is Slow?
 
Quote
Originally posted by Thorn:
they mustve spent a lot of money on AvP then. Good God that game is frantic.
*SCREECH* *SLASH* *SNAP* *GAHHHHHH* *BOOM* *SCREEEEEECH* *AHHHHHHHHH* *blackness* *silence*


I feel your pain (heh, get it?), Thorn.  All that Screeching and Slashing and blackness you describe up there happened to me in the first five seconds of playing the Marine demo.  When I played the Alien demo, however, all I got was the "*AHHHHHHHHH*" and "*silence*" parts.  I never was meant to be an alien.

 
Freespace and Speed: How Fast is Slow?
Alien is definately the way to go.  Xenos are the stealth ninja assassins of the universe.

  Has anyone ever beaten the Marine campaign?

 

Offline Thorn

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Freespace and Speed: How Fast is Slow?
I have... Hard as hell... You have to lure the Queen into an airlock and then blow it out into space..

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